[04:33] Hey, is anyone here able to reproduce bug #962704? [04:33] Launchpad bug 962704 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "cursor jumps to screen border when touching trackpad border" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/962704 [04:33] I think I've got the fix. [04:35] RAOF, nope. I had a 'jump to screen border' problem on the netbook but the conditions differed. Plus it's no longer happening with cnd's latest stuff. [04:36] Yeah, there was an earlier jump to screen border that cnd definitely fixed. [04:36] That was *desperately* annoying, so I know it's fixed because people aren't screaming at us :) [04:37] * bryceh nods [05:03] RAOF, bryceh: I think whot just posted a fix for that issue [05:03] upstream [05:03] I've been waiting on updating to upstream until he actually releases it for real [05:04] http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2012-April/030585.html [05:05] cnd: Yup. [05:06] cnd: I'm pretty sure the scroll issues I was tracing down are fixed by that, too. [05:06] So I've prepared an SRU and am just testing it now. [05:06] ok, cool [05:06] (Specifically, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/982771 ) [05:06] Launchpad bug 982771 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "Scrolling stops working in GTK3 scrolled windows after some time" [High,Confirmed] [05:06] I'm off to bed [05:06] have a good evening :) [05:07] cnd, cya [05:07] cnd, bedtime already? [05:07] Sleep well, and wake :) [05:37] Hey, does anyone know if bcm5974 is unique to apple hardware? === yofel_ is now known as yofel [12:14] Sarvatt: If you'd like to check that your macbook can suspend, resume, *and* still have a working trackpad with the synaptics in -proposed, that'd be grand. :) [13:29] RAOF: no dice, its stuck thinking 1 finger click is 2 fingers after resume [21:53] g'nite [22:08] It could be very useful in discussions with some people to have a decent answer to this question: Once Wayland is used by default on Ubuntu (whever that happens), what is the shortest possible amount of time until X stops being supported? [22:09] hi Darxus [22:10] Darxus, that's rather speculative :-) [22:11] Darxus, I think at this stage there cannot be a decent answer to that... far too many variables to consider [22:11] Of course. But there are people freaking out that they won't be able to use X natively anymore once Wayland works. And it would be nice to be able to tell them somewhat authoritively that their concerns are unfounded. [22:11] For more reasons than "backward compatability is going to be awesome, really". [22:11] ah [22:12] Darxus, well, let's lay out some assumptions [22:12] first, "Wayland used by default on Ubuntu" - let's define this to mean: [22:12] * Either fglrx supports wayland, or the FOSS radeon driver is better all around than fglrx, and fglrx is obsolete [22:13] * Ditto -nvidia and -nouveau [22:13] * wayland's performance is as good or better than X11 [22:13] * we can handle both the login session and the logged in user session [22:14] * a wayland-enabled widgetset (gtk, qt, or whathaveyou) is fully supported by all major applications we need (openoffice, firefox/chromium, unity, et al.) [22:14] [22:16] now, assuming all the above were true and wayland's 100% ready, and the Ubuntu project has consensus to switch to Wayland, there's two ways it could go [22:16] 1. We make the switch in an LTS. [22:16] 2. We wait until the release after the LTS. [22:17] I can't imagine why you'd pick #1. [22:17] case #1 would mean we would be able to stop officially supporting X11 in about 2 years. [22:18] what does "supporting X11" mean? [22:18] running X11 apps? [22:18] case #2 would mean we'd continue to support X11 for the duration of the LTS, which is 5 years. [22:19] jcristau, right, "support" also needs to be defined [22:19] i'm not seeing that happening in like 10 years [22:19] or 20 [22:19] jcristau, he asked for the absolute minimum timeframe [22:20] bryceh: but id probably support X for 10 more years than an early release of wayland.. [22:20] I think that the assumptions I laid out are not likely to be met for a long while [22:21] true :) [22:21] so yeah, I mean, "We could not stop supporting X11 for less than 2 years in the crazy nutty scenario, or 5 years in the slightly more realistic scenario" [22:22] where by support I mean packaging updates regularly, ensuring all applications run on it, fixing bugs, providing security fixes, yada yada [22:22] I doubt you could even do it in 1 release cycle.. [22:22] even if wayland was ready [22:22] probably not [22:24] So what, Ubuntu will continue supporting (natively) using X for a minimum of 20 more years? :) [22:25] X is already 30 years or older, so what's the problem? [22:25] Darxus, such leading questions... [22:25] Darxus, ;-) [22:25] Damn. [22:27] It's funny how much hate has poured on wayland just because Mark Shuttleworth said ubuntu will use it. I believe that hate would ease off if somebody authitatively said ubuntu will continue supporting X for at least 20 years. [22:27] Okay, not *just* because he said ubuntu will use it, but because people manage to vastly misunderstand it. [22:27] And that's exactly what you realistically can't say.. [22:27] Fair enough. [22:28] Darxus, yeah I also am troubled by how people blew wayland into a big bubble [22:28] marks likes making bubbles [22:28] tbh, that's half the reason I put some time into getting it packaged for ubuntu... so people could have something tangible to review [22:29] bryceh: I do appreciate that. [22:32] If only I could get xwayland working and create a video demonstrating it works great.... [22:34] Darxus, so what I'd tell people is this: [22:34] yes, as soon as someone demonstrates wayland works, suddenly worldwide all X11-based apps will mysteriously stop working. [22:35] Haha. [22:35] * Darxus forwards that to phoronix. [22:35] heh [22:37] I'm coming across (what seems like) a lot of "yeah well people said pulse audio wouldn't suck either". [22:37] Darxus, more seriously, if someone rubbed a genie and waved a magic wand and rainbows shot from unicorn butts, I can't see support going away for at least 5 years from 14.04. When you start taking into account all the variables and uncertainties, it's looking more like 10 years or more [22:38] Thanks. [22:39] and anyway I really doubt we'd make a wholesale switch in one go, we'd probably use wayland in some capacity for a while, with X11 running under it, and gradually factor out needing X11 over some years [22:39] then at the tail end years from now we'd probably not have X11 seeded but have it in the archive for legacy users [22:39] Right. [22:39] Thanks. [22:39] so, it wouldn't install by default but would still be there for apps that need it [22:40] Darxus, again though, all of the above is totally just out of my ass speculation, don't quote it as anything official [22:40] Right. [22:40] except the unicorn butt bits, that's ok [22:42] Darxus, more nearer term, robert ancell is looking into doing an experiment of using wayland for the login screen, for certain specific cases (e.g. foss drivers only). there's a UDS discussion and blueprint for that. [22:42] Yeah, I've noticed. That would be fun to see happen. [22:43] RAOF was asking about it in #wayland not long ago. [22:43] Darxus, but please don't take that as a commitment that we're moving to wayland; at this stage it's just an experiment. Despite mark's post, we don't have any official plans in place to move to wayland. [22:43] or I should say, aside from his post... [22:43] Yeah, I know. [22:43] Hah. [22:46] but I do think we are going to move in a wayland-ish direction; if not wayland itself then something wayland-like. My bet would be an X.org that incorporates a more wayland-like architecture, but who knows. [22:54] Like using KMS/DRM for output and dropping DDXes? [22:56] Darxus, yeah; there's been some interesting experiments along those lines going on over on the ARM side for example [22:58] Nice.