[04:33] <RAOF> Hey, is anyone here able to reproduce bug #962704?
[04:33] <RAOF> I think I've got the fix.
[04:35] <bryceh> RAOF, nope.  I had a 'jump to screen border' problem on the netbook but the conditions differed.  Plus it's no longer happening with cnd's latest stuff.
[04:36] <RAOF> Yeah, there was an earlier jump to screen border that cnd definitely fixed.
[04:36] <RAOF> That was *desperately* annoying, so I know it's fixed because people aren't screaming at us :)
[04:37]  * bryceh nods
[05:03] <cnd> RAOF, bryceh: I think whot just posted a fix for that issue
[05:03] <cnd> upstream
[05:03] <cnd> I've been waiting on updating to upstream until he actually releases it for real
[05:04] <cnd> http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2012-April/030585.html
[05:05] <RAOF> cnd: Yup.
[05:06] <RAOF> cnd: I'm pretty sure the scroll issues I was tracing down are fixed by that, too.
[05:06] <RAOF> So I've prepared an SRU and am just testing it now.
[05:06] <cnd> ok, cool
[05:06] <RAOF> (Specifically, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/982771 )
[05:06] <cnd> I'm off to bed
[05:06] <cnd> have a good evening :)
[05:07] <bryceh> cnd, cya
[05:07] <bryceh> cnd, bedtime already?
[05:07] <RAOF> Sleep well, and wake :)
[05:37] <RAOF> Hey, does anyone know if bcm5974 is unique to apple hardware?
[12:14] <RAOF> Sarvatt: If you'd like to check that your macbook can suspend, resume, *and* still have a working trackpad with the synaptics in -proposed, that'd be grand. :)
[13:29] <Sarvatt> RAOF: no dice, its stuck thinking 1 finger click is 2 fingers after resume
[21:53] <FernandoMiguel> g'nite
[22:08] <Darxus> It could be very useful in discussions with some people to have a decent answer to this question:  Once Wayland is used by default on Ubuntu (whever that happens), what is the shortest possible amount of time until X stops being supported?
[22:09] <bryceh> hi Darxus 
[22:10] <bryceh> Darxus, that's rather speculative :-)
[22:11] <bryceh> Darxus, I think at this stage there cannot be a decent answer to that... far too many variables to consider
[22:11] <Darxus> Of course.  But there are people freaking out that they won't be able to use X natively anymore once Wayland works.  And it would be nice to be able to tell them somewhat authoritively that their concerns are unfounded.  
[22:11] <Darxus> For more reasons than "backward compatability is going to be awesome, really".
[22:11] <bryceh> ah
[22:12] <bryceh> Darxus, well, let's lay out some assumptions
[22:12] <bryceh> first, "Wayland used by default on Ubuntu" - let's define this to mean:
[22:12] <bryceh> * Either fglrx supports wayland, or the FOSS radeon driver is better all around than fglrx, and fglrx is obsolete
[22:13] <bryceh> * Ditto -nvidia and -nouveau
[22:13] <bryceh> * wayland's performance is as good or better than X11
[22:13] <bryceh> * we can handle both the login session and the logged in user session
[22:14] <bryceh> * a wayland-enabled widgetset (gtk, qt, or whathaveyou) is fully supported by all major applications we need (openoffice, firefox/chromium, unity, et al.)
[22:14] <bryceh>  
[22:16] <bryceh> now, assuming all the above were true and wayland's 100% ready, and the Ubuntu project has consensus to switch to Wayland, there's two ways it could go
[22:16] <bryceh> 1.  We make the switch in an LTS.
[22:16] <bryceh> 2.  We wait until the release after the LTS.
[22:17] <Darxus> I can't imagine why you'd pick #1.
[22:17] <bryceh> case #1 would mean we would be able to stop officially supporting X11 in about 2 years.
[22:18] <jcristau> what does "supporting X11" mean?
[22:18] <jcristau> running X11 apps?
[22:18] <bryceh> case #2 would mean we'd continue to support X11 for the duration of the LTS, which is 5 years.
[22:19] <bryceh> jcristau, right, "support" also needs to be defined
[22:19] <jcristau> i'm not seeing that happening in like 10 years
[22:19] <jcristau> or 20
[22:19] <bryceh> jcristau, he asked for the absolute minimum timeframe
[22:20] <mlankhorst> bryceh: but id probably support X for 10 more years than an early release of wayland..
[22:20] <bryceh> I think that the assumptions I laid out are not likely to be met for a long while
[22:21] <mlankhorst> true :)
[22:21] <bryceh> so yeah, I mean, "We could not stop supporting X11 for less than 2 years in the crazy nutty scenario, or 5 years in the slightly more realistic scenario"
[22:22] <bryceh> where by support I mean packaging updates regularly, ensuring all applications run on it, fixing bugs, providing security fixes, yada yada
[22:22] <mlankhorst> I doubt you could even do it in 1 release cycle..
[22:22] <mlankhorst> even if wayland was ready
[22:22] <bryceh> probably not
[22:24] <Darxus> So what, Ubuntu will continue supporting (natively) using X for a minimum of 20 more years?  :)
[22:25] <mlankhorst> X is already 30 years or older, so what's the problem?
[22:25] <bryceh> Darxus, such leading questions...
[22:25] <bryceh> Darxus, ;-)
[22:25] <Darxus> Damn.
[22:27] <Darxus> It's funny how much hate has poured on wayland just because Mark Shuttleworth said ubuntu will use it.  I believe that hate would ease off if somebody authitatively said ubuntu will continue supporting X for at least 20 years.
[22:27] <Darxus> Okay, not *just* because he said ubuntu will use it, but because people manage to vastly misunderstand it.
[22:27] <mlankhorst> And that's exactly what you realistically can't say..
[22:27] <Darxus> Fair enough.
[22:28] <bryceh> Darxus, yeah I also am troubled by how people blew wayland into a big bubble
[22:28] <jcristau> marks likes making bubbles
[22:28] <bryceh> tbh, that's half the reason I put some time into getting it packaged for ubuntu... so people could have something tangible to review
[22:29] <Darxus> bryceh: I do appreciate that.
[22:32] <Darxus> If only I could get xwayland working and create a video demonstrating it works great....
[22:34] <bryceh> Darxus, so what I'd tell people is this:
[22:34] <bryceh> yes, as soon as someone demonstrates wayland works, suddenly worldwide all X11-based apps will mysteriously stop working.
[22:35] <Darxus> Haha.
[22:35]  * Darxus forwards that to phoronix.
[22:35] <bryceh> heh
[22:37] <Darxus> I'm coming across (what seems like) a lot of "yeah well people said pulse audio wouldn't suck either".
[22:37] <bryceh> Darxus, more seriously, if someone rubbed a genie and waved a magic wand and rainbows shot from unicorn butts, I can't see support going away for at least 5 years from 14.04.  When you start taking into account all the variables and uncertainties, it's looking more like 10 years or more
[22:38] <Darxus> Thanks.
[22:39] <bryceh> and anyway I really doubt we'd make a wholesale switch in one go, we'd probably use wayland in some capacity for a while, with X11 running under it, and gradually factor out needing X11 over some years
[22:39] <bryceh> then at the tail end years from  now we'd probably not have X11 seeded but have it in the archive for legacy users
[22:39] <Darxus> Right.
[22:39] <Darxus> Thanks.
[22:39] <bryceh> so, it wouldn't install by default but would still be there for apps that need it
[22:40] <bryceh> Darxus, again though, all of the above is totally just out of my ass speculation, don't quote it as anything official
[22:40] <Darxus> Right.  
[22:40] <bryceh> except the unicorn butt bits, that's ok
[22:42] <bryceh> Darxus, more nearer term, robert ancell is looking into doing an experiment of using wayland for the login screen, for certain specific cases (e.g. foss drivers only).  there's a UDS discussion and blueprint for that.
[22:42] <Darxus> Yeah, I've noticed.  That would be fun to see happen.
[22:43] <Darxus> RAOF was asking about it in #wayland not long ago.
[22:43] <bryceh> Darxus, but please don't take that as a commitment that we're moving to wayland; at this stage it's just an experiment.  Despite mark's post, we don't have any official plans in place to move to wayland.
[22:43] <bryceh> or I should say, aside from his post...
[22:43] <Darxus> Yeah, I know.  
[22:43] <Darxus> Hah.
[22:46] <bryceh> but I do think we are going to move in a wayland-ish direction; if not wayland itself then something wayland-like.  My bet would be an X.org that incorporates a more wayland-like architecture, but who knows.
[22:54] <Darxus> Like using KMS/DRM for output and dropping DDXes?
[22:56] <bryceh> Darxus, yeah; there's been some interesting experiments along those lines going on over on the ARM side for example
[22:58] <Darxus> Nice.