[00:00] works for me :) [00:00] Works for me [00:00] Good here... [00:00] +1 [00:00] Time= now +/- 3 hours [00:01] Again, my worry is for AI [00:01] Agreed - this will always be bad for AI [00:01] Why not cycle times every meeting? you'll get a different selection of FC every time [00:02] because, no time that is good for AI works for anyone else [00:02] that's... tricky. [00:02] I think we should discuss this further, perhaps vote later [00:02] so when we look at avability, say there are 4,5,or 6 members available as time foo and bar and another_time [00:03] It is always AI missing [00:03] and when you look at AI times, only 1 or 2 members at most are available [00:03] so , no matter what, we are going to need to learn to communicate outside of FC meetings [00:03] It is difficult [00:03] +1 to communication [00:04] Okay, next topic [00:04] [TOPIC] New UFM === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: New UFM [00:05] Only one this month, and he is already an ubuntu member.... [00:05] which i still don't understand the point but anyway [00:05] Is there anyone who does not know cprofitt ? [00:05] I'm confused - do I also need to re-apply via forums? [00:05] Iowan: because we have 2 categories [00:06] Iowan: I think he just want to have a more formal forum membership. [00:06] Ubuntu members -> they all get the little user benefits [00:06] and Ubuntu Forums Members [00:06] Only Ubuntu members active on the forums (UFM) are eligible for staff and to vote [00:07] Does this mean I need to reapply? [00:07] so, if they go or have gone through an alternate membership board, they need to apply for UFM [00:07] I did not get my membership for forums activites [00:07] I would say so s-fox [00:07] ditto [00:07] Does cprofitt just want to become a UFM so that he is eligible to become a staff member [00:07] That is the best way to identify UM active on the fourms [00:07] no cariboo907 , he wants to vote for staff [00:08] I do not think it is the general policy of Ubuntu Team, nor do I think we want, all UM to vote for ubuntu forums elections [00:08] Okay, that I understand [00:09] As an ubuntu member, if you are not active on IRC, you do not get asked to vote for ubuntu irc board [00:09] etc [00:09] I anticipate a small # of these applications [00:09] [VOTE] cprofitt for UFM [00:09] Please vote on: cprofitt for UFM [00:09] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [00:09] +1 [00:09] +1 received from bodhi_zazen [00:09] +0 [00:09] +0 received from cariboo907 [00:09] +1 [00:09] +1 received from coffeecat [00:09] +11 [00:09] +11 received from s-fox [00:09] +1 [00:09] +1 received from Iowan [00:09] Nice vote by me ;) [00:10] (vote -10 to balance?) [00:10] [ENDVOTE] [00:10] Voting ended on: cprofitt for UFM [00:10] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [00:10] Motion carried [00:10] mhall119 ping ? [00:11] good to see another CC member getting more involved with forums (we miss technoviking!) [00:11] 'lo pleia2 [00:11] sorry, don't mean to interrupt meeting :) [00:12] no bother, glad to have you [00:12] mhall119 added an item to the agenda wanting to add a programming related forum to the main page rather than under the programming section. i am not sure on the reasoning and generally think it is unorganised if we do that [00:12] s-fox: here [00:12] Hey mhall119 :) [00:12] mostly [00:13] I say, add the forum, we can remove it if it is unused [00:13] [TOPIC] Add top level suport forum for ubuntu app developers === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Add top level suport forum for ubuntu app developers [00:13] mhall119 can you explain your idea please? [00:14] so one of our big goals in the 12.10 cycle is to build a community of independent application developers [00:14] and one thing that almost every other developer.*.* website offers app devs is a forum [00:14] mhall119: can this be a subsection of the ubuntu+1 forums ? [00:14] o/ [00:14] not just for technical/programming support either [00:14] bodhi_zazen: no, it'll be a permanent fixture [00:15] duanedesign: if it on topic, speak, otherwise wait for open floor [00:15] so questions and support will range from programming to packaging, pricing, promotion, collaboration, etc [00:15] Where would you propose we add it ? [00:15] http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php [00:15] http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=310 [00:15] bodhi_zazen: I was hoping to get it in the "Main Support Categories" area [00:16] as top-level as possible [00:17] we'll link to it from developer.ubuntu.com/community [00:17] I have someone who wants to learn to package the linux-libre kernel into a ppa (they make .deb now, but want to learn better) [00:17] as one of the official places for app developers to get support and meet other app developers [00:17] would they use the forums for that sort of activity ? [00:17] learning to package ? [00:17] I think it sounds like a reasonable idea; it could attract a healthy developer community, and is no worse than any of the partner forums under main support ;) [00:17] bodhi_zazen: no, that's ubuntu development, not app development [00:18] we're targeting people who make, say, Angry Birds, and wants to make a native Ubuntu version [00:18] but programming side ? [00:18] they don't care about kernels or debian packaging with lint --pedantic or all that [00:18] mhall119 we get people building applications in that section [00:18] what about packaging ? [00:18] bodhi_zazen: programming will be part of it, but not all of it [00:18] packaging is a frequent FAQ [00:18] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:19] it'll also be pricing, promotion, etc [00:19] makes sense to me, considering the "app" model ubuntu is moving towards. consolidating things might be useful. [00:19] (as much as i despise the word "app") [00:20] Iowan cariboo907 coffeecat thoughts? [00:20] Thinking... [00:20] I don't really want to send them all over the forums, I'd rather give them one place specifically for them [00:20] I think it's a good idea [00:21] +1 mhall119 [00:21] echo that [00:21] just like they expect from other developer portals [00:21] Probably worth a try - as mentioned about partner subforums [00:21] o/ [00:22] If it is on topic Effenberg0x0 speak up [00:22] Effenberg0x0 go :) [00:22] Apps need testers. I see a good opportunity for integration there [00:22] oh, for added clarification, this will be mainly targetting people who will be submitting apps through MyApps and the ARB, not to Universe [00:22] this almost seems to merit an additional section, even. but a single forum would be good to start with. [00:23] My 2c are to make this work as best we can [00:23] I like Effenberg0x0's point. [00:24] QA won't test 3rd parts. Ubuntu+1/U+1 Team can help. Good opportunity for knowledge exchange. [00:24] mhall119: can you or someone help develop the description you envision ? [00:24] http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326 [00:24] bodhi_zazen: sure, dpm and I can do that [00:24] "The perfect place to post for your Ubuntu support if you are new to Linux." [00:24] We can put it under main for visibility [00:25] Okay, lets vote. [00:25] Horse before cart: Loco forum mods? [00:25] as it evolved , see if it belongs there or if it should be moved to a development section [00:25] mhall119: yes, any help with moderating this section ? [00:25] bodhi_zazen: I'd be happy to, dpm will too I'm sure, and we can get he ARB to help too [00:26] These sorts of discussions can get , err, interesting [00:26] [VOTE] App developers forum to be created and placed under main suport categories [00:26] Please vote on: App developers forum to be created and placed under main suport categories [00:26] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [00:26] someone to help set the tone would be great [00:26] +1 [00:26] +1 received from cariboo907 [00:26] staff can help [00:26] +1 [00:26] +1 [00:26] +1 received from bodhi_zazen [00:26] +1 received from coffeecat [00:26] +1 [00:26] +1 received from Iowan [00:26] with spam and stuff [00:26] bodhi_zazen: there's enough stake holders, I'm sure we can find a good group of mods [00:26] +0 [00:26] +0 received from s-fox [00:26] implicit plus-one ;) [00:26] I think that would be best [00:26] [ENDVOTE] [00:26] Voting ended on: App developers forum to be created and placed under main suport categories [00:26] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [00:26] Motion carried [00:27] you guys rock! thanks so much for addressing this so quickly [00:27] Okay, mhall119 if you could email / irc the fc with the description we will do the rest :) [00:27] Before we move on. Something for mhall119 and all to think about... [00:27] s-fox: what email? [00:28] mhall119 the fc mailing list [00:28] mhall119: for future reference : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil [00:28] thanks [00:28] ubuntu-forums-council@lists.ubuntu.com [00:29] mhall119, mentioned "pricing and promotion" With app developers who are new members. Have to give them guidelines so they are not mistaken for spammers. [00:29] +1 on spam issue [00:29] Pricing always raises a red flag... [00:29] coffeecat: yeah, I didn't mean "promote your app on the forums", I meant "ask other app devs what they did for promotion, what work and what didn't, etc" [00:30] As do links to products off ubuntu web pages from members with < 10-15 posts [00:30] mhall119, sure. But some might get it wrong! :) [00:30] We should make an announcement to the forum population, otherwise we are going to get buried in reports [00:30] Part of setting up the forums [00:30] sticky in neew forum [00:30] s-fox: we will also likely announce it on the developer portal blog [00:30] develop description, post guidelines as a sticky [00:31] mhall119 a lot of the forum users are not devs =) [00:31] s-fox: right, I was just mentioning it [00:31] Yea, we chased the dev out with pitchforks and torches =) [00:31] [ACTION] Sticky in new section outlining post criteria [00:31] ACTION: Sticky in new section outlining post criteria [00:32] [ACTION] Post in Cafe about new section [00:32] ACTION: Post in Cafe about new section [00:32] any other comments ? [00:32] [ACTION] Post in PT about new section [00:32] ACTION: Post in PT about new section [00:33] Nothing from me [00:33] Anyone else? [00:33] nothing from here [00:33] Nothing more here [00:33] [TOPIC] U+1 moving === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: U+1 moving [00:33] thanks again, I'll get with dpm tomorrow to write up that description and some guidelines from our side, then you guys can add whatever guidelines you think will be needed [00:34] moergaes added this item [00:34] Yes [00:34] moergaes you have the floor =) [00:34] Thanks. [00:34] We have talked somewhat about this in the staff forum [00:34] but I would like to hear if we have an agreement / decision. [00:34] Ubuntu+1 is different from all other fora [00:34] as the purpose is not support, but software development [00:34] (particularly testing and bug reporting). [00:35] Therefore support request should not go there IMHO. [00:35] My suggestion: [00:35] I think the point is moot, as Precise comes out tomorrow, and there will be a new QQ subforum, [00:35] This is meant for U+1 in general [00:35] not only this cycle. [00:35] cariboo907 please wait until moergaes is done. :) [00:36] I suggest that all threads in U+1 should serve a purpose regarding software development [00:36] OK :( [00:36] else they should be moved (or stay) somewhere else [00:36] mostly Absolute Beginner Talk. [00:36] o/ [00:36] Comments? [00:37] where should U+1 support go? [00:37] o/ [00:37] agreed. but when do we decide to stop moving threads *in* and start moving them *out* into general areas? 2 weeks before release? beta 2? [00:37] go Effenberg0x0 [00:37] o/ [00:37] Mark created Development release USERS (not testers) when he did this: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/938, which was foralized here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-plusonemaint-priorities [00:37] Therefore, users exist, users need support. And we benefit from converting support requests into new testers. [00:37] Maybe have two sub-sections, one for devs and another for support? [00:38] i like that idea uRock [00:38] +1 uRock [00:38] U+1 forum always seemed a bit cluttered [00:38] u+1 have grown [00:38] We have very few developers in that section, they mainly answer support questions [00:38] quackers: go [00:38] also, I also think that U+1 support/development should be moved up a little bit. it's quite hidden, and many threads moved there are made by those who didn't see it [00:39] where should testers of the current development release ask for support, if not in U + 1 [00:39] ? [00:39] could move it under general ... [00:39] isn't that thinning an already limited supply of help? [00:39] Let me try to answer that quackers , if I may ... [00:39] we'd be flooded with reports if they do not have their own section [00:40] There are no absolutes, people (including staff) need to use judgement [00:40] This release (QQ) is about quality. We need more common users testing the Development Release. I ask you to consider that cautiously in any change we do to the current structure. [00:40] Lets say a user needs support on u+1 ... [00:40] Is is a question that is very general - how do I install software ? [00:40] If it is general enough , leave it in ABT or GH or wherever [00:40] not usually [00:41] Or is it specific to U+1 [00:41] In that case, it needs to be moved [00:41] doesn't that really echo current policy? :) [00:41] often specific imo [00:41] This last release cycle was NOT typical [00:41] it was MUCH MUCH more stable [00:41] wait until X fails on u+1 [00:41] We usually make some suggestions, and help the new user along, as long as the question is concerneing the development release [00:41] so u+1 specific support / development -> u+1 [00:42] there will always be judgement involved [00:42] that's my thought [00:42] for me, yes [00:42] Does the support question pertain to development , development specific problems ? [00:42] itconcentrates users [00:42] Okay, I see a few people in agreement on an idea. Time to vote [00:42] Or is it general enough to remain in ABT ? [00:43] If in doubt -> move to u+1 [00:43] One problem is the "naive" user who has no intention of testing, install an alpha or beta without knowing what they are and needs help. It dilutes the U+1 forum. [00:43] until a stable beta ? [00:43] coffeecat: Exactly [00:43] +1 coffeecat [00:43] that was my point. [00:44] But again, this release cycle was more stable then average [00:44] [VOTE] u+1 specific then move, if question is generic then leave in General / ABT [00:44] Please vote on: u+1 specific then move, if question is generic then leave in General / ABT [00:44] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [00:44] +1 [00:44] +1 received from bodhi_zazen [00:44] +1 [00:44] +1 received from cariboo907 [00:44] +1 [00:44] +1 received from coffeecat [00:44] +1 [00:44] +1 received from s-fox [00:44] Iowan ? [00:44] +0 [00:44] +0 received from Iowan [00:44] [ENDVOTE] [00:44] Voting ended on: u+1 specific then move, if question is generic then leave in General / ABT [00:44] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [00:44] Motion carried [00:45] Great =) [00:45] Open floor ? [00:45] o/ May I? (Two quick remarks, no need to discuss it in-depth now, just a proposal for you to consider) [00:45] Thanks! [00:45] Last item [00:45] o/ [00:45] bodhi_zazen after the division of labour you will have the floor [00:45] WHo is going to move the Precise sub-forum to the archove [00:45] Oops [00:45] naw, give it to Effenberg0x0 first [00:45] archive [00:45] bodhi_zazen okay [00:45] +1 [00:46] [TOPIC] Division of labour === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Division of labour [00:46] you all see my tl;dr every day [00:46] Who wants the team report this month? [00:46] (pass) [00:47] * cariboo907 will [00:47] [ACTION] Team report -> s-fox & cariboo907 [00:47] ACTION: Team report -> s-fox & cariboo907 [00:47] cariboo907: volunteered earlier [00:47] who wants the admin thread ? [00:47] I'll help! [00:47] o/ [00:47] [ACTION] Admin thread -> Iowan [00:47] ACTION: Admin thread -> Iowan [00:48] doh - [00:48] Who wants to swat trolls on the mailing list? [00:48] o/ [00:48] and spam [00:48] * coffeecat is game for some troll swatting. [00:48] [ACTION] Mailing list -> bodhi_zazen [00:48] And spam!!!! [00:48] ACTION: Mailing list -> bodhi_zazen [00:48] unless you have a better task for me oh great one (s-fox) [00:49] [ACTION] s-fox to mail coffeecat some spam [00:49] ACTION: s-fox to mail coffeecat some spam [00:49] lol [00:49] I think that is it [00:49] Effenberg0x0 has the floor [00:49] Ban reversal candidates? [00:49] blog.bodhizazen.net | coffeecat@ubuntu.com [00:50] There are none Iowan [00:50] May I? [00:50] yes [00:50] No ban reversal candidates added themselves to the agenda, none showed up [00:50] Thanks, I have two items for you to consider. We can discuss both in the future as we're short on time now. [00:50] #1 (The small one): This cycle is about quality. We need more common users testing the Dev. Release. If possible, I'd like Ubuntu+1 to move up a little in the forum sections. It's a little hidden, and that is not compatible to current Ubuntu strategy. [00:50] don't worry, we're only 55 mins over our allocation of an hour [00:50] Effenberg0x0: np, in the future = add them to agenda ;) [00:51] Ok bodhi_zazen [00:51] And #2 [00:51] +1 Effenberg0x0 [00:51] +1 to moving it to main =) [00:51] another +1 [00:51] +1 from me [00:51] +1 from me too [00:51] [VOTE] Move u+1 so it is more visible [00:51] Please vote on: Move u+1 so it is more visible [00:51] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [00:52] +1 [00:52] +1 received from bodhi_zazen [00:52] +1 [00:52] +1 received from cariboo907 [00:52] +0 [00:52] +1 [00:52] +0 received from Iowan [00:52] +1 received from coffeecat [00:52] +1 [00:52] +1 received from s-fox [00:52] (plus one) [00:52] wow, great, huge support! Thanks guys! Let me paste text for the next request. [00:52] [ENDVOTE] [00:52] Voting ended on: Move u+1 so it is more visible [00:52] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [00:52] Motion carried [00:53] #2 (The big one): UF – U+1Team partnership. The U+1 Team is independent from QA and any other structure, reporting only to CC. But it is strongly related to UF (and UF's Ubuntu+1 sub-forum). Initially, most of our members came from UF, including some UF staff and Ubuntu members via Forums. We even have 2 UF Council members in our team. I personally see UF as the most successful endeavor of Ubuntu in on-line communities. [00:53] We need to work together. U+1 team was designed to work via partnerships, with defined term lengths, goals, tasks, limited scope, metrics. In this sense, I'd like to propose such a partnership between U+1 and UF. [00:53] UF can benefit from having some of it's staff involved in learning in testing, QA and technical work – a glimpse of a broader Ubuntu universe. UF can also recruit staff and candidates to Members from U+1 (likely technical and committed to Ubuntu). [00:53] U+1 Team can benefit from having more Ubuntu-commited members in testing (and possibly DOC and other activities) and strong recruitment to testing via Forums. Forums are also (IMO) an amazing thermometer of Ubuntu software quality. [00:53] We can work to draft a scope for such partnership together and define a term-length of one development cycle as a trial. I can have a draft for your appreciation in a week or so. [00:53] whew [00:54] +1 on reviewing a draft [00:54] The idea really needs some discussion [00:54] discussion would be great, plan sounds solid [00:55] continue to build on success [00:55] I think it's a win-win. For UF and U+1 Team. We just need to set details. [00:55] o/ [00:55] Effenberg0x0 could you prepare the draft and get it to a the FC? [00:56] s-fox, sure. Gie a couple days and I'll send it to FC mail, ok? [00:56] Effenberg0x0: and add an item to FC agenda [00:56] bodhi_zazen, Ok, will do [00:56] Gotta go. It's been nice... 8) [00:56] Unresolved items -> carry over [00:56] [ACTION] Effenberg0x0 to send fc draft and post on agenda [00:56] ACTION: Effenberg0x0 to send fc draft and post on agenda [00:57] bodhi_zazen floor is yours [00:57] Just a few short comments on #ubuntuforums [00:57] The channel is intended to be a voice for the community and a place for staff to interact [00:57] It seems to be working well [00:58] feel free to participate, including steering the occasional discussion of items on the FC agenda [00:58] encourage discussion of community issues [00:58] as staff, you are the facilitators [00:59] We simply get more done, and have more community support for change if we have the discussion with the community [00:59] /end [00:59] o/ [00:59] cariboo907 go [00:59] go cariboo907 [00:59] Who is going to move the Precise sub-forum to the archive, and create a new one for QQ [01:00] are you volunteering cariboo907 ? [01:00] I guess I am, it will just be a bit later this time around, [01:01] Is archiving it really needed? Considering many bugs and workarounds are persistent? [01:01] OK, if you need help, let us know [01:01] not archiving, closing (I assume) [01:01] [ACTION] cariboo907 to handle precise and create QQ Subforum [01:01] ACTION: cariboo907 to handle precise and create QQ Subforum [01:01] Okay, anything else? [01:01] New member message? [01:02] Oh yes, can i do it this month? [01:02] \o/ [01:02] +1 [01:02] +1 [01:02] [ACTION] New member message -> s-fox [01:02] ACTION: New member message -> s-fox [01:02]