[13:54] <CiPi> hello, I have a problem with the new Xubuntu 12.4 LTS. I can`t create a encrypted home directory from the beginning of install. I get: ubi-usersetup failed with exit code 1.
[14:04]  * pleia2 waves to knome 
[14:04] <knome> hai pleia2 :)
[14:05] <pleia2> I might take a nap later, but I'm around now for a few hours :)
[14:05] <knome> okay
[14:05] <knome> so, shall we work on the wiki?
[14:05] <pleia2> yes
[14:05] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[14:06] <knome> we should also probably look at http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
[14:06]  * pleia2 nods
[14:06] <knome> " Xubuntu/Testing, move "How to contribute" to xubuntu.org; delete "Projects", but link to release schedule somewhere "
[14:07] <knome> that's the todo-item
[14:07] <pleia2> do we have an astraljava^Wvolunteer to take over for charlie re: testing lead?
[14:07] <knome> astraljava has been pretty much working on the qa stuff lately
[14:08] <knome> i don't know if we should have a "testing lead" in the same sense as before
[14:08] <knome> i think with charlie, it meant he did majority of the tests
[14:08] <knome> i don't want anybody to have that burden
[14:08]  * pleia2 nods
[14:08] <pleia2> it should be mostly a "make sure they get done, however you have to" thing
[14:08] <knome> but there should be somebody that is coordinating the tests and getting publicity if we need more tests
[14:09] <pleia2> yeah
[14:09] <knome> let's not worry too much about that
[14:09] <knome> i think testing should be a team effort anyway
[14:09] <pleia2> well I'm asking because I wonder if it's better to coordinate changes with astraljava on the Testing pages :)
[14:10] <knome> i'm sure he's happy with whatever we come up with
[14:10] <pleia2> ok
[14:10] <knome> i'm seeing him tomorrow, so he can hit me if it's crap
[14:10] <pleia2> hehe
[14:10] <knome> so, i'd start on the "projects" section
[14:11] <knome> since that's about to be removed completely
[14:11] <pleia2> yeah
[14:12] <pleia2> ok, so the last paragraph of Projects should be merged with last paragraph of How to Contribute
[14:12] <knome> ...and they should both be moved to xubuntu.org
[14:12] <knome> but most of that info is already there
[14:12]  * knome is just logging in @x.org
[14:13] <knome> are we linking to the TestingInfo pages from the QA ISO tracker?
[14:13] <knome> if not, can we, and is it needed?
[14:13] <knome> or could we add our testing info/testcases in the qa iso tracker wiki
[14:14] <pleia2> for the hardware?
[14:14] <knome> no
[14:14] <pleia2> oh
[14:14] <knome> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/216/builds/16047/testcases/143/results --> "Link to the testcase"
[14:14] <pleia2> I sort of saw them as separate tests
[14:15] <knome> yeah, but could we have some pages in the qa wiki
[14:15] <knome> and tell the users to "do the normal tests first, then come back here"
[14:15] <knome> even if the TestingInfo -page is linked from xubuntu.org, it's too easy to miss that while doing tests and reporting them to the QA tracker
[14:16] <knome> since there is simply no link there
[14:16] <knome> if we could incorporate the tests to the QA tracker, we would have all the information in one place
[14:16] <pleia2> so http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation is what is linked now
[14:17] <knome> yeah
[14:17] <pleia2> and you can do all that stuff in xubuntu (I always did)
[14:17] <knome> what if it was same.domain/Install/Xubuntu/Desktop or sth
[14:17] <pleia2> but yeah, it's unclear where you go from there since it feels like the test is done
[14:17] <knome> and linked to that page, plus having the short and long tests
[14:17] <knome> i suppose that's possible
[14:18] <knome> i just logged in to the qa testcases wiki
[14:18] <knome> the thing is, we need to ask somebody to update the links to point to correct urls
[14:18] <knome> but i imagine that is rather tricial
[14:18] <knome> *trivial
[14:18] <knome> i contacted stgraber on that already in PM
[14:19] <pleia2> ok cool
[14:19] <pleia2> yeah, so I think we do that
[14:20] <pleia2> create and start linking to our own pages, then we can maintain them too
[14:20] <knome> yeah, and that will further make the qa page at the website cleaner
[14:20] <knome> yes
[14:20] <knome> but anyway, what comes to the wiki now ;)
[14:20] <knome> can't we just delete the projects section
[14:20] <knome> as long as we link the release schedule somewhere
[14:21] <pleia2> yeah, maybe move link to release schedule in the intro
[14:21] <knome> yup
[14:21] <pleia2> I can pop in and do this if you want
[14:22] <knome> i'm on it
[14:22] <pleia2> ok
[14:22] <knome> done, and freed the lock
[14:22] <knome> so, what about "how to contribute" ?
[14:23] <pleia2> I'm going to make some quick changes there
[14:23] <knome> sure
[14:23] <knome> though
[14:23] <knome> i think we can drop that
[14:23] <knome> it's all at xubuntu.org
[14:24] <pleia2> ah, yeah
[14:24] <pleia2> me compares
[14:24] <knome> i'm doing changes to the xubuntu.org page
[14:24] <knome> just a sec
[14:25] <pleia2> "To get started on testing Xubuntu, you should join the Xubuntu Testers group and add your name, hardware and other appropriate information in the Xubuntu Testers page on the wiki."
[14:25] <pleia2> should swap "join launchpad" and "add info to the wiki"
[14:25] <pleia2> since we want people to add info to the wiki first
[14:25] <knome> update the page
[14:26] <pleia2> (unless we just open the lp team up, which has been floated)
[14:26] <pleia2> ah, good
[14:27] <knome> fixed some small stuff
[14:27] <knome> i think that renders the "how to contribute" page useless
[14:28] <pleia2> agreed
[14:28] <pleia2> except we should maybe link to the website?
[14:28] <knome> " ccasional testing is welcome, but regular testing is even better" ?
[14:28] <knome> +o
[14:28] <knome> should we add that to the website
[14:29] <knome> i think the order should be website -> wiki anyway
[14:29]  * knome is hoping we can just point people to the "contribute" section on the website
[14:29] <knome> and leave the wiki completely for those who already have decided to start contributing
[14:29] <knome> so to say, only include things relevant to contribution itself
[14:29] <pleia2> I think we still need to tie them together, in case someone new does end up on the wiki
[14:30] <knome> that should be in the header then
[14:30] <knome> i mean, look at the new header
[14:30] <knome> there is next to no cruft
[14:30] <knome> there is only stuff we really need
[14:31] <pleia2> yeah, maybe move development assets all to point to the website?
[14:31] <knome> the marketing and artwork -pages only list stuff we are working on
[14:31] <knome> no, because we don't want to work on the marketing projects on the website
[14:31] <knome> because we need a platform for that
[14:31] <knome> which is the wiki, available for everybody
[14:32] <pleia2> ok
[14:33] <knome> the marketing frontpage on the wiki is something i'd like for testing too
[14:33] <knome> it's the same with the ubiquity-slideshow
[14:34] <knome> we don't need to talk the user to install xubuntu any more, since he is already doing it
[14:34]  * pleia2 nods
[14:34] <knome> so, we can think of adding a link like "contribute"/"get involved" in the wiki header
[14:35] <knome> but let's not duplicate stuff from the website :)
[14:35]  * pleia2 ponders
[14:35] <knome> yup?
[14:37] <pleia2> just looking through some pages to get my head around where we are linking things
[14:37] <knome> yeah
[14:37] <knome> as said, i'd like the direction to generally be website -> wiki
[14:39] <pleia2> ok, in case someone lands on Xubuntu/Testing I think we keep the contribute section, but instead just link to the website
[14:39] <pleia2> "Basic information about how to contribute found $link"
[14:40] <knome> yeah.
[14:40] <knome> probably do something similar for the artwork/marketing pages too then
[14:40] <pleia2> yeah, that's what I'm thinking
[14:40] <pleia2> I'll jump in on marketing
[14:41] <knome> so, "how to contribute" goes - what about "how it is organized" ?
[14:41] <knome> i think most of that is just duplicating what we wrote in xubuntu.org
[14:41] <pleia2> well, I think "how it is organized" will change a bit as we update the tracker (not sure how accurate it is anyway)
[14:42] <knome> since we are going to have the pages in the qa wiki, i think we don't need to specifically describe the structure here
[14:42] <knome> just make sure when somebody is linked to a testcase that the difference between the short and long test is explained there
[14:43] <pleia2> yeah, I think before it was somewhat confusing to me just because there was a disconnect between the Long/ShortTest pages and the iso tracker
[14:43] <pleia2> they felt like different things when they shouldn't have been
[14:43] <knome> yes, exactly
[14:43] <knome> that's exactly what i was thinking too
[14:44] <knome> the intro text "The primary goal of Xubuntu Testing is to facilitate regular, organized testing of development releases of Xubuntu. If you have a spare hard drive or computer, and are interested in trying out the latest Xubuntu development releases, this is the place for you." is something i'd actually remove too
[14:44] <knome> some things in TestingInfo would be good for the testing frontpage
[14:44] <knome> well, i'm not sure even about that.
[14:44] <knome> :|
[14:45] <pleia2> so yeah, that intro text duplicates what is on the website
[14:45] <knome> we probably should describe the alpha/beta/rc/final releases
[14:45] <knome> but if possible, make it *shorter*
[14:45] <knome> i wonder what the ubuntu testing wiki says
[14:45] <pleia2> yeah, TestinInfo describes them but it could be formatted better
[14:46] <pleia2> (not sure it's length so much as "aaah I don't want to read wall-of-text"
[14:46] <knome> yeah, that
[14:46] <pleia2> better formatting could make it better on the eyes
[14:47] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO for the instructions on how to download
[14:47] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Milestones ah!
[14:48] <pleia2> ah, very similar
[14:48] <knome> it's probably the same
[14:48] <knome> but we could just link
[14:48] <pleia2> I actually just checked if it was Include-ed ;)
[14:48] <knome> then we don't have to maintain
[14:48] <knome> hehe
[14:48] <knome> me too
[14:48] <pleia2> but yeah, we should link
[14:49] <knome> it's probably been the same
[14:49] <knome> but the xubuntu text is outdated
[14:49] <pleia2> yeah
[14:49] <knome> cipi, do i smell an awaynick?
[14:50] <knome> pleia2, i just pasted the link to TestingInfo for now
[14:51] <pleia2> ok looks good
[14:51] <pleia2> Downloading info is duplicated in the QA tracker, zsync info is good because most won't be familiar with it (I wasn't!)
[14:52] <knome> i just added a todo item
[14:52] <knome> ask stgraber to add a link to instrcutions from iso tracker download links
[14:53] <pleia2> which instructions?
[14:53] <knome> instructions on zsync
[14:53] <knome> i mean, zsync is featured on the list
[14:53] <pleia2> oh yes
[14:53] <knome> so it wouldn't hurt to have a link to instructions there
[14:54]  * pleia2 nods
[14:54] <knome> again, rendering the duplication in the xubuntu wiki useless
[14:54] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ZsyncCdImage
[14:54] <knome> also
[14:54] <pleia2> good
[14:55] <knome> just thrwe that link in too
[14:55] <knome> "what you need is duplicating website information too?
[14:56] <knome> or if not, maybe we should extend the xubuntu.org qa page
[14:56] <pleia2> actually, maybe keep the actual command lines for xubuntu zsync? the generic ubuntu wiki link wouldn't have them
[14:56] <knome> pleia2, no, but they are in the qa iso tracker
[14:56] <pleia2> yeah, I suppose
[14:57] <knome> for what? :)
[14:57] <pleia2> it's fine
[14:57] <knome> what is? :D
[14:57] <pleia2> zsync stuff
[14:57] <knome> yeah
[14:57] <knome> the ideal situation is to have that link in the qa tracker
[14:58] <knome> hmm.
[14:58] <pleia2> ok, now on this page we need a link to the qa tracker
[14:58] <knome> maybe a quick paragraph on:
[14:58] <knome> "when you get started, you need to:"
[14:58] <knome> * download the image
[14:58] <knome> * report bugs
[14:58] <knome> * report tests
[14:59] <knome> "Testing Xubuntu does not help the developers unless the tests are reported." is a good one
[15:00] <pleia2> yeah, maybe starting out with something like "The Xubuntu team uses the QA tracker, which has full details on how to do testing, but for a quick overview to get started you need to..."
[15:00] <knome> yeah
[15:04] <knome> xubuntu.org udpated
[15:04] <knome> woops, where did the zsync link appear :)
[15:05] <pleia2> hehe
[15:05] <pleia2> I'd add a link to the tracker again the second time you mention it
[15:06] <knome> sure, i'll do some other minor improvements too
[15:06] <pleia2> While the QA ISO testing tracker has all the necessary information on how to do testing, but <-- and remove "but"
[15:06] <knome> k :)
[15:07] <pleia2> (the rest is fine, just that single word, since we started the sentence with "While")
[15:07] <knome> updated
[15:08] <pleia2> great
[15:08] <knome> okay good
[15:09] <knome> notice how i linked to the zsync page too
[15:09] <knome> so we don't need to in the wiki
[15:09] <knome> maybe we should add the milestone link in the website too
[15:10] <knome> TestingInfo is now down to only a few paragraphs
[15:10] <pleia2> what do we want the TestingInfo page to have?
[15:10] <knome> let's not come up with anything unless there is something we need to have
[15:11] <pleia2> ah, on the website you can add to Download an ISO; "do an integrity check"
[15:11] <knome> mm-hmm
[15:12] <pleia2> if there isn't something we can link to, maybe quickly explaining how to do an md5sum on TestingInfo
[15:13] <pleia2> ah, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM :)
[15:14] <knome> page updated again
[15:14] <pleia2> great
[15:14] <knome> so
[15:14] <knome> TestingInfo is down to one <p> :D
[15:14] <knome> and i think that paragraph is rather useless
[15:15] <knome> or, if we want
[15:15] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/InstallMethods is crazy old, we shouldn't link to it
[15:15] <knome> hehe
[15:15] <knome> right
[15:15] <knome> in that case, nvm the "or" :D
[15:15] <knome> so
[15:15] <knome> we have the milestones link
[15:15] <knome> how to integrate that to xubuntu.org?
[15:16] <pleia2> Testing <a href="milestones">versions under development</a>
[15:16] <pleia2> hmm, no
[15:16] <knome> no
[15:16] <knome> i'm on it
[15:16] <pleia2> since we test *before* the milestones
[15:19] <knome> updated
[15:19] <knome> -when
[15:19] <pleia2> great
[15:19] <knome> or -when just
[15:19] <knome> == right before
[15:20] <knome> so, should we go and move the TestingInfo subpages (Long/Short) to the qa wiki already
[15:20] <pleia2> yep
[15:20] <knome> then we could actually... *drumroll* remove Xubuntu/Testing
[15:20] <pleia2> that's scary
[15:21] <pleia2> :)
[15:21]  * knome removed Xubuntu/Documentation already
[15:21] <knome> and others
[15:21] <knome> ;)
[15:21] <knome> i wonder what the structure would be
[15:23] <pleia2> ok, I think we're good on testing now
[15:23] <knome> maybe we should wait until confirmation
[15:23] <pleia2> yeah, in case astraljava wants something we deleted
[15:23] <knome> and then move the subpages and remove X/Testing
[15:23]  * pleia2 nods
[15:23] <knome> but what about the Testing page
[15:23] <knome> should we just remove that
[15:23] <pleia2> testing or testinginfo?
[15:24] <knome> actually, both
[15:24] <knome> then move Testing/Testers to Testing maybe
[15:24] <knome> and update links
[15:24] <knome> because that's pretty much the only thing we are going to track at wiki
[15:24] <pleia2> yeah, I think we want some redirects though, since we do have blog posts and things in the wild linking to the old pages
[15:25] <pleia2> or maybe keep Testing with a link to the website and have it link to Testing/Testers
[15:25] <knome> or include
[15:25]  * pleia2 hates delete
[15:25] <pleia2> :)
[15:25] <pleia2> I don't love include for things people edit, they get confused
[15:25] <knome> i'll do link-to-website + include
[15:25] <knome> meh.
[15:26] <pleia2> wikis are hard enough, when they try to edit Testing and cant figure out where to add their name, scary :)
[15:26] <knome> include + add a link with "Add your information here" that links to edit
[15:26] <pleia2> ah, yeah
[15:26] <knome> hehe
[15:26] <knome> okay, i'll go for it
[15:26] <pleia2> great
[15:26] <knome> we don't even need to update the links then
[15:27] <pleia2> yeah
[15:27]  * knome is trying to type too fast, too many typos
[15:27] <pleia2> hehe
[15:31] <GridCube> :(
[15:31] <knome> GridCube, ? :)
[15:31] <pleia2> oh yeah, we'll need to yank out the header from Testers to include it
[15:31] <knome> nope
[15:31] <pleia2> oh
 supports from/to
[15:32] <knome> i'm hacking on it
[15:32] <pleia2> :)
[15:34] <knome> \o/
[15:34] <pleia2> looks good :)
[15:34] <knome> oops
[15:34] <knome> except the link doesn't work
[15:35]  * knome foes fixing
[15:35] <knome> any way
[15:35] <knome> the next issue
[15:35] <knome> update the table :|
[15:36] <pleia2> oh, it converted all the ? and stuff characters
[15:36] <pleia2> better :)
[15:36] <knome> hmm? :)
[15:36] <pleia2> looks good now :)
[15:37] <knome> yeah
[15:37] <knome> but what about the table structure
[15:37] <knome> are we happy with the columns
[15:37] <pleia2> I think so
[15:37] <knome> ok
[15:37] <knome> i think the "releases" column is...
[15:38] <knome> i mean, why do we need information if you can test, say, natty?
[15:38] <knome> SRU/backport: yes/no 
[15:38] <knome> LTS releases: yes/no
[15:38] <knome> or even group them
[15:38] <knome> pdesm
[15:39] <knome> ...
[15:39] <pleia2> I don't know enough about testing to say why/if that is actually useful, maybe it was so the testing lead could keep track of who contributed and when?
[15:39] <knome> is that necessary, if that information is not included in the release or so?
[15:39] <knome> it seems to be hard enough to add the information
[15:39] <knome> so why should we ask people to update it every release
[15:40] <pleia2> I have no idea
[15:40] <knome> i don't see the benefit
[15:40] <knome> you can see who tested an who not on the qa tracker
[15:40] <knome> *and
[15:42] <pleia2> yeah, I don't know enough to have an opinion here :)
[15:42] <knome> i'll remove it, we can reintroduce (that will give more space for the other info, cleaning up)
[15:44] <knome> done
[15:44] <knome> much better
[15:44] <knome> though your name is still too long!
[15:45] <pleia2> lol
[15:46] <knome> fixed, i think it's better that something else than the first column wraps
[15:47] <pleia2> :)
[15:48] <knome> ok, one more little fix in
[15:48] <knome> i think it's much better now
[15:49]  * pleia2 removes the word "graphics" from her gfx card info so it's prettier
[15:49] <knome> hehe
[15:49] <knome> now there is Xubuntu/Developemnt
[15:49] <knome> -typo
[15:49] <knome> and X/About
[15:50] <pleia2> maybe pick up on these later?
[15:50] <knome> yeah, i was thinking something like that
[15:50] <pleia2> I think I'm going to run out to the pool for a bit before it gets busy
[15:51] <knome> and we probably need mr_pouit to tell what's current and what's not
[15:51] <pleia2> yeah
[15:51] <knome> hihi, okay
[15:51] <knome> have fun :)
[15:51] <pleia2> thanks :)
[15:51]  * knome will digest the 300g steak
[16:48] <GridCube> i cant think of more now
[16:48] <GridCube> http://typewith.me/p/xubuntu-1204-top10faq
[16:48] <knome> same here, ideas-list compiled from the head
[16:49] <GridCube> the number 4 was the Nº1 question from yesterday
[16:49] <knome> hehe
[16:49] <knome> yeah...
[16:50] <GridCube> oh, arandr
[16:52] <GridCube> thats a pretty usual one
[16:52] <knome> yeah, quite
[16:53] <GridCube> :P 
[16:53] <GridCube> --no-install-recommends, good one knome 
[16:54] <GridCube> D: i don't know
[19:05] <knome> pleia2, ping me when you're back (especially if you're in the mood for some more reviewing), i might be up for another session today :)
[19:05] <pleia2> working on UWN summaries, if I don't end up going out for brunch when I'm done I'll let you know :)
[19:06] <knome> ok, good
[19:06] <knome> might be around 1h until i can do something like that, but anyway
[19:06] <knome> err, about 1h more likely
[19:08] <knome> look at http://typewith.me/p/xubuntu-1204-top10faq if you have extra time :)
[19:15] <Unit193> (I'd assume I can poke at that)
[19:17] <knome> Unit193, sure. :)
[19:39] <astraljava> knome: pleia2: I don't care either if the testing thing has a lead. I'm just the QA contact person, but that should do. If you have /Testing somewhere, please send it to me via email. If it's deleted already, that's fine. Now I'm falling to bed. :)
[19:39] <knome> gn
[19:39] <knome> :)
[19:39] <Unit193> That was in the unreadable block of text? Good night.
[19:42] <knome> astraljava, once you get back though, be assured that nothing was removed. it's not all in xubuntu.org, or, waiting to be moved to the QA wiki and to be linked from the QA tracker
[19:52] <knome> ok, i'm ready
[19:53] <knome> hey j1mc :)
[19:53] <knome> j1mc, what's up?
[19:57] <j1mc> heya knome 
[19:58] <j1mc> congrats on xubuntu 12.04  :)
[19:59] <knome> thanks!
[19:59] <knome> it's a great release
[19:59] <j1mc> it is.  :)  i have it on a computer that i'm using to rip cd's. i basically start it up, and then go straight to "asunder"
[19:59] <j1mc> asunder is a good ripping program.
[20:00] <knome> it's getting better, but i still don't like it's forcing something to the genre field
[20:01] <j1mc> :)
[20:10] <j1mc> i am headed out. take care, knome. :) bye all.
[21:16] <micahg> mr_pouit: I assume we're going with xfce 4.10 in quantal?
[22:25] <knome> off to bed. see you!