[03:41] <robert_ancell> RAOF, hah!  You recent G+ post makes it sound like my arrival causes screens to change colour!
[03:41] <RAOF> Heh.
[03:56] <robert_ancell> RAOF, oh sweet, did you manage to get 2 ColorHugs in the end?
[03:56] <robert_ancell> Do you owe much of your soul to Richard?
[03:57] <RAOF> The 50-odd pounds I paid for mine covers that debt nicely :)
[03:57] <RAOF> I'd already pre-ordered some time ago.
[04:09] <robert_ancell> RAOF, btw, does it work out of the box in 12.04 or do you need to install any pacakges?
[04:09] <RAOF> You can't calibrate with anything out of the box, but when you plug something in and hit the "calibrate" button it'll packagekit itself the necessary packages.
[04:10] <RAOF> It looks like colord isn't built with colorhug support, though, and can't be because we apparently don't have libgusb yet.
[04:11] <robert_ancell> RAOF, so it doesn't work?
[04:11] <robert_ancell> (unless you build from source?)
[04:11] <RAOF> Not out of the box.
[04:11] <RAOF> I'm now doing a little light debugging.
[04:12] <robert_ancell> RAOF, cause if it doesn't I'd like to SRU up some packages so we can do it at UDS for random people with a 12.04 laptop
[04:46] <Sarvatt> RAOF: was the huey i lent you making the screen obnoxiously pink like it was after i got it back from you?
[04:46] <RAOF> Sarvatt: No, it wasn't.
[04:46] <Sarvatt> its uselessly broken now
[04:46] <Sarvatt> i want to buy a hug but 16 weeks lead time...
[04:48] <RAOF> It's much more reasonable if you think of ordering 16 weeks in the past :)
[04:49] <Sarvatt> i have a color profile on this pc from calibrating it before lending it to you in budapest thats so much better than stock it isnt funny but need to calibrate more screens
[04:49] <Sarvatt> apparently it normal hueys go dead in a few months and calibrate too pink
[04:52] <Sarvatt> now if only UDS wasnt so screwed compared to GBP
[04:52] <Sarvatt> USD rather
[04:53] <Sarvatt> $112 for a colorhug :(
[04:56] <RAOF> Oooh, ow.
[06:04] <mlankhorst> morning
[06:10] <RAOF> mlankhorst: Good morning!
[06:29] <BigWhale> Greetings.
[06:29] <RAOF> Fellow Humans!
[06:30] <rickspencer3> RAOF,  "fellow" humans?
[06:31] <BigWhale> I wanted to add "take me to your leader", but it would be a bit too much :>
[06:31] <RAOF> rickspencer3: You're a Jolly Fellow, right? :)
[06:31] <rickspencer3> RAOF, hmmm, I presume Jolly Fellow is some slang I don't know?
[06:32] <RAOF> No, not really.
[06:32] <RAOF> It just indicates a certain intonation of ‘jolly fellow’. :)
[06:33] <rickspencer3> hehe
[06:37] <BigWhale> Hm, python3 does something funny to ctypes types. All the char pointers are converted to byte sequences instead of strings ...
[08:12] <Sweetshark> micahg: yes it is.
[08:13] <micahg> Sweetshark: thanks
[08:34] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, am i basically on my own today?
[08:35] <micahg> good morning chrisccoulson
[08:35] <chrisccoulson> hi
[08:38] <czajkowski> Good morning
[08:38]  * ogra_ watches from the fence to see how chrisccoulson deals with that much power :) 
[09:11] <chrisccoulson> wow, i can't believe it's not raining this morning
[10:37] <lifeless> I recently gave my dad my old D430
[10:38] <lifeless> its hanging a lot for him
[10:38] <lifeless> X lockup, I think, as he can ssh into it.
[10:38] <lifeless> is there a debug-howto for X these days ?
[11:02] <RAOF> lifeless: There's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting
[11:03] <lifeless> intel card of course, don't suppose we know of a known problem on dell D430's ?
[11:04] <RAOF> Do you happen to know what card it's got?
[11:08] <lifeless> not offhand
[11:08] <lifeless> Its probaly in LP in a bug somewhere :)
[11:10] <lifeless> RAOF: separately, https://twitter.com/#!/jamezpolley/status/196916428916535297
[11:10] <lifeless> (further back has his hardware)
[11:11] <lifeless> should I point him at the same page ?
[11:13] <RAOF> Yeah; particularly https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/BlankScreen
[11:37] <lifeless> RAOF: thanks
[12:24] <jo-erlend> I found some time to play with Vala again. Thought I'd just make a simple WebKit-thing. That's not simple with Vala/GTK3. Doesn't seem to be packaged. The advise I get is to copy .vapi and .deps, edit the  .deps-file and import the new name. That's not particularly app-developer friendly. Any reason why this is so?
[12:25] <jo-erlend> I mean; there's no difficulties with GTK3 and Python from GIR, so webkit obviously handles it.
[13:55] <dobey> jo-erlend: i odn't understand what your question is there
[13:56] <dobey> jo-erlend: problem is there is no webkit vapi?
[14:00] <dobey> jo-erlend: ah, i see you asked in the correct place (#vala)
[14:16] <chrisccoulson> jbicha_ is being very calm on the "let's all jump on the ubuntu-hating bandwagon" thread on G+ ;)
[14:24] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, which thread?
[14:25] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, https://plus.google.com/u/0/107928060492923463788/posts/gxnw6ZzCXV9
[14:27] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, https://twitter.com/#!/lucasratmundo/status/196899565985742848
[14:29] <dobey> chrisccoulson: that's it, i'm installing arch.
[14:29] <chrisccoulson> lol
[14:29] <chrisccoulson> right, i need to pop to the optician now
[14:29] <chrisccoulson> bbiab
[14:31] <kenvandine> dobey, hehe
[14:47] <jo-erlend> dobey, yes, I asked in #Vala first. I haven't used WebKit in Vala before. But I have used GTK3 with WebKit before, using Python. So to me, it seems like it must be a bug.
[14:48] <jo-erlend> dobey, things like that should still be able to make it into 12.04, right?
[14:48] <dobey> jo-erlend: i doubt it
[14:50] <dobey> jo-erlend: a new version of vala almost certainly wouldn't make it into precise anyway. if upstream webkit added the vapis and made a new release that needed to go into preise for security fixes, then maybe it could go in that way. but i wouldn't bet on that happening
[14:52] <jo-erlend> Ubuntu is just too weird in some areas. All this talk about Ubuntu as an app development platform, but WebKit is excluded?
[14:55] <jo-erlend> WebKit is probably _the_ most important tool for new programmers, because you can accomplish fairly impressive results with little code.
[15:13] <dobey> jo-erlend: well you can't use webkit 3.0 from java either right now. Just because it isn't usable from all possible languages on the platform, doesn't mean it's excluded. Ubuntu is just as dependent on upstream development as any other Linux distro.
[15:14] <jo-erlend> dobey, I'd say Vala is slightly more relevant than Java to Ubuntu development.
[15:15] <dobey> jo-erlend: then work with upstreams to get it supported, and it will be in 12.10; or invent a time machine, go back in time 6 months, work with upstreams, change history, and get it into 12.04. :)
[15:16] <jo-erlend> dobey, the problem is that as long as functionality is intermittent, we can't make Ubuntu an attractive platform for development. And if we can't do that, then we also can't make it attractive to users.
[15:20] <dobey> you are overreacting.
[15:20] <jo-erlend> I ported by PyGTK application to GI. Then I realized to my horror that it would never work because of a bug in GTK or the GTK GIR overrides. So I started porting it to Vala. Being a Gnome language, I thought, it should be much better at GIR. And so far, it seems to be. But a major part of the application is webkit, which cannot be used in Vala.
[15:20] <jo-erlend> s/by/my/
[15:21] <jo-erlend> of course, there was no way of knowing this when I started the development.
[15:22] <dobey> you can use gtk2 webkit in vala for your application right now. and it will work.
[15:22] <jo-erlend> have you tried?
[15:23] <dobey> tried in what respect? i have done it, if that's what you mean
[15:23] <jo-erlend> because I got about 950 errors about GTK2/GTK3 incompatibilities when I tried doing that.
[15:23] <dobey> well you can't use gtk3 *and* gtk2 webkit
[15:23] <jo-erlend> right.
[15:24] <dobey> at least, not in the same binary
[15:24] <dobey> and i ported gwibber-accounts to gtk3, which uses webkit and is python. not sure what but prevents you from using that
[15:26] <jo-erlend> in Python, WebKit is not a problem. TreeViews is the problem. You can't make custom models in Python for use with GTK3 applications.
[15:28] <jo-erlend> That's been holding Gramps back for about a year, for instance.
[15:28] <dobey> what sort of custom model? are TreeStore or ListStore somehow not good enough?
[15:29] <jo-erlend> right.
[15:30] <jo-erlend> Gramps uses a database, for instance. That's my grief too, except I use another database.
[15:32] <jo-erlend> you can probably circumvent all these bugs. But the point is, it shouldn't be acceptable to have these kinds of bugs at all, if Ubuntu wants to become an attractive platform for app development.
[15:32] <dobey> it is not specific to Ubuntu
[15:32] <jo-erlend> I know. So what?
[15:33] <dobey> so have you done anything to help fix them?
[15:33] <jo-erlend> we can choose to fix those kinds of bugs in Ubuntu, or we can choose not to. If not, then Ubuntu should stop trying to attract developers, because they will be disappointed at some stage.
[15:34] <dobey> Welcome to The Real World (TM), jo.
[15:34] <dobey> developers are going to be disappointed by something on the platform at some stage, no matter what you do
[15:34] <jo-erlend> dobey, yes, I have.  But I'm not able to go into GTK hacking. I don't have that knowledge, and I don't think that should be a requirement for writing Python applications either.
[15:35] <dobey> but it's required to have knowledge to write a custom tree model in gtk+?
[15:35] <jo-erlend> and if my fixes won't go into a stable environment for another two years anyway, I don't really see the point in putting any effort into it. See where I'm going?
[15:35] <jo-erlend> dobey, not about the low-level C-code.
[15:36] <jo-erlend> you can do it in GTK2, for instance. No problem.
[15:36] <jbicha_> jo-erlend: GTK3 and gobject-introspection are still newish, no one is saying that everything works perfectly yet
[15:36] <jo-erlend> jbicha_, no, but someone is telling me fixes won't go in. That's what I'm talking about.
[15:36] <dobey> well it will never work perfectly. perfection is unattainable :)
[15:36] <dobey> who is telling you fixes won't go in?
[15:36] <jo-erlend> well, you did, didn't you?
[15:37] <dobey> no, i said it is unlikely for the specific change you asked about, to end up in precise
[15:38] <dobey> i didn't say no fixes would ever go in anywhere
[15:38] <dobey> every issue in ubuntu is not a complete travesty. :)
[15:39] <jo-erlend> of course not. But as a development platform, it isn't trustworthy. No sane developer would want to invest in something that might work, and if it doesn't, then it might get fixed two years from now.
[15:40] <dobey> jo-erlend: vala doesn't even claim to be stable yet.
[15:40] <dobey> jo-erlend: don't blame ubuntu for your choice of language not having the APIs you want to use.
[15:41] <dobey> jo-erlend: and please stop overreacting. there are plenty of ways to make your application work.
[15:41] <jbicha_> jo-erlend: would you rather wait 3 years for a new Windows release? or whenever Apple feels like it for a new OS X release?
[15:41] <jo-erlend> "blame"? I'm not talking about blame. I'm talking about becoming better as we learn what the faults are.
[15:41] <dobey> jbicha_: don't forget also assuming that they even know about the issue, and are willing to fix it, ever. :)
[15:41] <jo-erlend> jbicha_, that is actually a very good question. As a developer... I might.
[15:42] <dobey> jo-erlend: if you're willing to wait 3 years, then you can wait 2, no?
[15:42] <jo-erlend> when manuals are wrong and you're told not to blame Ubuntu when you bring it up, then it is a serious issue, I think.
[15:42] <dobey> also, 6 months is not 2 years, so i don't know what you are talking about 2 years for
[15:42] <dobey> what manuasl are wrong?
[15:43] <jo-erlend> dobey, the manual for GTK is wrong.
[15:43] <dobey> and why do you keep changing the point of focus?
[15:43] <jo-erlend> huh?
[15:44] <dobey> first it was webkit 3.0 isn't available from vala, then it was you can't do a custom tree model in python with GIR, then it was not waiting for 2 years for a fix, now it's gtk+ manual is broken
[15:45] <jo-erlend> dobey, I asked you; if I fix the bug with webkit; will I get it into 12.04? No. That means I'll have to wait two more years. That brings up the question about why Ubuntu doesn't fix development bugs if it wants to become an attractive platform for developers.
[15:45] <dobey> jo-erlend: if you want to port your app to vala, why not get it working with gtk2 now?
[15:46] <dobey> jo-erlend: no it doesn't mean you have to wait 2 years. 12.10 will be released in october. if you fix the issue now, it will be included in that release.
[15:46] <jo-erlend> right.
[15:47] <jo-erlend> you don't see the problem at all, do you? :)
[15:47] <dobey> jo-erlend: i also didn't say it wouldn't be included in 12.04 updates. i said it was highly unlikely. there are a lot of variables
[15:47] <dobey> jo-erlend: the only problem i see, is that you are overreacting and actively avoiding any reasonable solution to your problem
[15:47] <jo-erlend> dobey, it is highly unlikely that I'll invest an unknown amount of time fixing something that is unlikely to be of any value to anyone.
[15:49] <jo-erlend> dobey, no, I am not talking about _my_ problem. I am talking about Ubuntus problem. If we don't fix bugs, then people won't trust it. If people doesn't trust it, then people won't invest in it.
[15:49] <jo-erlend> development blockers has to be fixed. And you shouldn't have to replace your operating system in order to do so either.
[15:50] <dobey> *sigh*
[15:50] <jo-erlend> you don't agree?
[15:51] <dobey> you are overreacting and being unreasonable. again.
[15:51] <jo-erlend> it is unreasonable for developers to expect that bugs that prevents them from completing their programs, will get fixed?
[15:54] <dobey> "I need this newer version of this programming language which is part of your older system offering, so you should ship it on your older system." is unreasonable, yes. do you think ubuntu should ship a new gcc version on 12.04, because the one on 12.10 will be newer and have additional options which aren't available on 12.04, just so you can use those options?
[15:55] <jo-erlend> I don't understand the connection there. What does this have to do with new versions of programming languages or compilers?
[15:56] <dobey> because you're assuming the fix is already made in some way which is acceptable to ship on ubuntu 12.04. and positing all of your argumentation based on that assumption.
[15:57] <jo-erlend> I am? I asked because I am going to fix it for my own applications sake, but I wanted to know if there's any chance of getting it into 12.04. From what I read, it's a very minor issue, after all. I mean; we do know that webkit works with GI and GTK3.
[15:58] <dobey> the current webkit-1.0.vapi is shipped as part of vala itself. if a webkit-3.0.vapi is shipped as part of vala, then it will be included in the new vala, which is a new version of an unstable programming language
[15:58] <jo-erlend> the question is whether a provably perfect patch that fixes a bug that prevents people from completing their programs should be fixed in this operating system or not.
[15:58] <jo-erlend> dobey, right. But it doesn't _have_ to be?
[15:59] <dobey> well, ideally the vapi would be generated in the upstream webkit source from the gir which also is generated there
[15:59] <dobey> however, gobject-introspection is itself new, and unstable
[16:02] <jo-erlend> I still don't understand what it is about Vala 0.14 or 0.16 that prevents the vapi to be generated now.
[16:02] <dobey> also, new API is new API, and the platform is api frozen. additional .vapi files would need special exceptions
[16:02] <dobey> jo-erlend: well the GIRs are broken
[16:02] <jo-erlend> dobey, then why does it work in Python?
[16:02] <dobey> jo-erlend: becuase python isn't vala?
[16:03] <dobey> and work is subjective
[16:03] <jo-erlend> dobey, WebKit GIRs?
[16:03] <jo-erlend> I don't understand.
[16:03] <jo-erlend> WebKit works with GTK3 in Python. That is the same library I want to use with Vala, right?
[16:03] <dobey> many GIRs are broken. the WebKit ones are, as well as many of the underlying libraries it depends on
[16:04] <dobey> they might be usable from Python for certain things, sure. but they are by no means complete, 100% correct, or stable.
[16:05] <dobey> and right now, i require lunch.
[16:05] <jo-erlend> right, as you said, Ubuntu isn't perfect. But in Vala, we don't have it at all. It's not a question of not being 100% correct. It's about being 100% absent. And I don't know why it can't be fixed.
[16:08] <jo-erlend> In 12.04, the development cycle QA improved dramatically, but some bugs will never be discovered until after release. If they can't be fixed, then we're in trouble. Specially if the OS in question is an LTS release.
[16:19] <jbicha_> jo-erlend: you understand the difference between fixing a bug and adding a new feature, right?
[16:20] <jo-erlend> jbicha_, not necessarily, no.
[16:21] <jbicha_> simple bug fixes can get into Ubuntu stable releases relatively easily, new features require FFe approval and probably won't happen
[16:22] <jbicha_> some things can show up in -backports, but I believe libraries are bad candidates for that
[16:23] <jo-erlend> jbicha_, but in this case, it's not a library. WebKit is working fine right now, at least as far as I can tell.
[16:24] <jo-erlend> I understand that you have to be cautious. But I don't understand that if you want to stick to an LTS, then you can't get improved development tools.
[16:25] <jo-erlend> particularly when it's minor issues that's causing the blockers.
[16:25] <kenvandine> jo-erlend, yeah, the problem is it isn't necessarily trivial to include the vapi
[16:25] <jo-erlend> kenvandine, that's what I don't understand.
[16:26]  * kenvandine has no idea why it isn't there... dobey problem knows the situation better
[16:26] <kenvandine> but from my understanding the upstream build system doesn't generate it
[16:26] <jo-erlend> "because someone probably hasn't needed it yet", was the explanation in #Vala@gimpnet.
[16:27] <kenvandine> so changing it to do so, might not be trivial...
[16:27] <kenvandine> jo-erlend, right...
[16:27] <kenvandine> but it also means if we added it now, it would be completely untested
[16:27] <jo-erlend> so, Ubuntu app developers has to wait two years, or replace their operating system. That's just not good enough.
[16:27] <kenvandine> and from my experience... newly generated vapis tend to expose more bugs
[16:27] <jo-erlend> kenvandine, it wouldn't be untested if it was tested first.
[16:28] <kenvandine> it isn't like testing an app... it is bindings for the api
[16:28] <kenvandine> anyway, i understand your point that it really sucks not having it in the LTS
[16:28] <kenvandine> but it clearly doesn't mean the guidelines for an SRU
[16:28] <kenvandine> which is sad...
[16:29] <jo-erlend> it's not sad. It's devastating if the goal is to become a viable platform for professional third-party developers.
[16:30] <kenvandine> jo-erlend, assuming vala is really critical for attracting new developers
[16:30]  * kenvandine does like vala... 
[16:30] <jo-erlend> I certainly think so.
[16:31] <kenvandine> jo-erlend, basically it isn't because we don't want the vapi there... it is just too late for 12.04 :(
[16:31] <jo-erlend> Vala is the coolest thing I've toyed with for years. Obviously, it's young and there's lots of improvements to be seen. But that's the point; we can't wait two years to see those improvements.
[16:31] <kenvandine> if it got some good testing in a ppa or something, perhaps someone could beg for an SRU in time for a 12.04.1 and make the case for it
[16:42] <dobey> sigh
[16:42] <dobey> jo-erlend: does whatever you're using webkit for, need to embed flash or other plug-ins?
[16:43] <jo-erlend> dobey, I'm not quite sure, actually. Why do you ask?
[16:44] <dobey> jo-erlend: because you can't embed flash in gtk3 webkit anyway, so if you have to embed it then you have to use gtk2
[16:50] <jo-erlend> wow. I didn't know that. I don't use Flash that often. Is anybody compiling a list of these limitations?
[16:52] <dobey> jo-erlend: well, webkit loads the plug-isn internally, and flash uses gtk2, so loading it inside gtk3 results in the conflicting symbols problems
[16:52] <jo-erlend> ah. Ok. That's not easily fixed either.
[16:52] <dobey> jo-erlend: i /think/ that webkit-gtk will use the new webkit stuff for 12.10, which has the plug-ins as separate processes though, so those issues should go away when that switch happens
[16:53] <dobey> but that is also very unlikely to get SRUed to 12.04
[16:53] <jbicha_> jo-erlend: I guess you don't use Epiphany then because it has that Flash problem ;)
[16:53] <jo-erlend> jbicha_, I almost never use Flash at all.
[16:54] <jo-erlend> What about that new thing... Spark?
[16:54] <jbicha_> look for info about webkit2 if you want to learn more about that, the new API is still experimental & incomplete though (it's not enabled for 12.04 either)
[16:57] <jo-erlend> Flash is no big deal to me personally. But if someone thinks they can write a new browser, it might be somewhat interesting :)
[16:59] <jo-erlend> hmm. GTK has a slots-feature, doesn't it? Wonder if it could be used to embed GTK2 things in GTK3?
[17:01] <jo-erlend> sockets.
[17:04] <jo-erlend> I think I'm going to see if that works.
[18:57] <dobey> jo-erlend: yes, you can use plug+socket (XEmbed) api to embed a gtk2 thing from one process into a gtk3 application, but they can't be the same process. this is how the plug-in works already, the problem is that it gets loaded in-process currently. and webkit2 fixes that
[22:49] <RAOF> robert_ancell: Turns out that the version of argyll we have in Precise doesn't support the colorhug. :/
[22:50] <robert_ancell> RAOF, any reason not to update to the latest one?
[22:50] <RAOF> No.  We'll get that one for free in Qantal
[22:50] <RAOF> Oh, no, it'll need a merge.
[22:51] <RAOF> But updating a to a new argyll in precise would be a pretty dicey SRU.
[22:51] <JanC> could go into -backports?
[22:51] <RAOF> Absolutely.  Once Qantal is open, presumably.
[22:52] <robert_ancell> RAOF, we need it in a PPA at least so people can actually calibrate their monitors...
[22:53] <RAOF> robert_ancell: *That* I can easily provide.
[22:53] <robert_ancell> hmm, the versions page has lost track of upstream on that one
[22:54] <TheMuso> Well quantal is now open.
[22:55] <RAOF> Oh, we've apparently (seemingly needlessly) diverged from Debian on argyll since 2010.
[22:55] <RAOF> Well, not initially needlessly; we've got a newer version than Debian had in 2010 :/
[22:56] <RAOF> TheMuso: Ah, the archive bootstrapping has finished?  Great!
[22:56] <TheMuso> According to the ubuntu-devel ML.
[22:57]  * TheMuso groans. More chainsaws going outside, making it hard to think...
[22:57]  * TheMuso hopes he doesn't hear the dreaded mulcher today...
[23:04] <robert_ancell> RAOF, given nothing seems to actually use it perhaps it could be SRUd?
[23:04] <RAOF> Possibly, yeah.
[23:05] <RAOF> We could also try just pulling in the colourhug support patch.