=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
[00:42] <tertitten> This may be the wrong channel to ask in, but if anyone have any tips I would appreciate it. I've recently built a distro/respin of openSUSE which I've been working on for a long time now, i'm now starting to regret using suse as base, so for building a distro based on ubuntu what tools is recommended ? UCK, Remastersys?
[00:44] <directhex> ubuntu doesn't have any tool remotely as elegant as suse studio
[00:46] <tertitten> directhex, no, maybe not, but I'm willing to dig in :)
[02:00] <sladen> tertitten: probably UCK
[02:01] <tertitten> sladen, OK, I'll look into that one then, there a few to chose by it seems :)
[02:01] <tertitten> thanks
[07:41] <xnox> Good Morning!
[07:44] <RAOF> Hey, ho!
[07:49] <jodh> Is the binary package control file "Tag" field documented somewhere?
[07:50] <RAOF> jodh: What are you seeing with a Tag field?
[07:51] <jodh> RAOF: an example would be "apt-cache show casper|grep ^Tag:"
[07:51] <RAOF> Ah, debtags!
[07:51] <RAOF> That should be the magical google juice.
[07:52] <jodh> RAOF: thanks! Wondering why they aren't mentioned in the Debian Policy manual if they are official though?
[07:54] <RAOF> Possibly because they're not quite that official, possibly because they don't need to be - AFAIK debtags are completely confined to their own universe, don't affect maintainers, and don't affect apt.
[07:56] <geser> cjwatson: even if the check for pre-depends on dpkg is going away, packages which failed to upload because of it need to get it added anyways, right?
[08:04] <jodh> RAOF: since "Tag:" is optional like some other binary source control fields and since it is used in packages in stable Debian releases, it sounds pretty official to me, so should atleast be referred to in the Policy Manual imho.
[08:04] <jodh> RAOF: thanks for the pointer though - I have now found some docs :)
[08:18] <cjwatson> geser: no - the LP change to make that no longer required should be deploying RSN (today/tomorrow, haven't checked yet this morning)
=== fenris is now known as Guest733
[08:19] <cjwatson> jodh: the reason Tag isn't documented in policy is that policy chiefly documents things that package maintainers need to do to ensure interoperability, and Tag is applied at the archive level as an override - package maintainers don't set it
=== Guest733 is now known as ejat
[08:23] <jodh> cjwatson: I don't fully understand - in the case of casper, the tag is specified in debian/control.
[08:25] <cjwatson> jodh: casper is foolish
[08:27] <cjwatson> we don't have debtags working at the archive level for Ubuntu yet, but when we do, it isn't going to involve laboriously pushing tags into source packages
[08:30] <jodh> cjwatson: ok, thanks.
[08:31] <enrico> RAOF: and possibly because people think like you do, then don't get used as much as they could
[10:04] <geser> could someone please give-back "libpam-mount"? thx
[10:17] <Traumflug> Hello all :-)
[10:19] <Traumflug> Well, I've found a bug in one of the packages (surprise!) shortly before 12.04 was released and fixed it.
[10:19] <Traumflug> Now the merge request is apparently stuck: https://code.launchpad.net/~mah-jump-ing/ubuntu/precise/pcb/fix-for-988503-2/+merge/103767
[10:20] <Traumflug> What could I do about this, after all it's just a click from a member of the Ubuntu-Bugs group missing.
[10:22] <geser> Traumflug: as it's listed on http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html someone should review it in the next days
[10:22] <cjwatson> geser: libpam-mount> done
[10:23] <Traumflug> Thanks, geser
[10:56] <hyperair> hmm weird. how does ubuntu go about rebooting?
[10:56] <hyperair> it looks like /etc/rc6.d has S90reboot
[10:56] <hyperair> which implies that reboot should be called with a start argument
[10:56] <hyperair> but the script itself only responds to a stop argument
[10:56] <hyperair> so clearly that's broken
[10:56] <hyperair> and kexec-load which follows the same logic is broken in the same way
[11:02] <geser> hyperair: is perhaps rc6 special-cased somewhere as the other S-scripts have only a working stop argument too
[11:02] <hyperair> geser: but kexec-load doesn't seem to work.
[11:03] <hyperair> sorry, i meant kexec itself
[11:03] <hyperair> hmmm
[11:04] <geser> hyperair: just took a look in /etc/init.d/rc and runlevel 6 (and 0) hardcodes the action to stop
[11:05] <hyperair> i see.
[11:05] <hyperair> thanks, i guess it's failing elsewehre
[11:05] <hyperair> i'll try poking at this later
[11:15] <cjwatson> geser,micahg: data.tar.xz is now safe to use in quantal without a Pre-Depends.  I've given back all the (four) upload failures resulting from the previous situation.
[11:17] <geser> thanks
[11:19] <geser> bdrung: do you plan to upload a devscripts where dch defaults to quantal soon?
[11:38] <jalcine> Which audio system is better to develop with?
[11:38] <jalcine> alsa or pulse?
[11:39] <jalcine> or should I let gstreamer handle all that jazz?
[11:39] <jalcine> err
=== sagaci__ is now known as sagaci
[11:53] <apw> @pilot in
=== udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive open | Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: ev, apw
[12:05] <vipin> can any one tell me the process how to configure oracle instant client with php on linux machine
[12:06] <ion> Please see the topic.
[12:06] <vipin> i dont know about the topic i want solution please
[12:07] <Pici> vipin: this isn't a support channel.
[12:08] <vipin> where i can fins the solutiob
[12:09] <apw> are we expecting to need new explicit build depends for flex in quantal ?
[12:10] <cjwatson> apw: flex always required a build-dependency
[12:10] <cjwatson> maybe the kernel just wasn't using it before?
[12:10] <apw> cjwatson, i guess htats possible, or something we used to depend on used to fluke it in for us ...
[12:10] <cjwatson> possible
[12:11] <cjwatson> looks like you need pkg-config and bison too
[12:14] <apw> cjwatson, yeah, adding now ... shame all our builders are in a heap ... sigh
[12:14] <apw> (our kernel team ones)
[12:38] <bdrung> geser: you can go ahead and do this ubuntu upload
[12:38] <bdrung> geser: it's time to merge the dch changes to debian and query distro-info
[12:40]  * cjwatson considers the interaction of absolute_import and update-manager
[12:40] <cjwatson> this is actually one of the few cases I've seen where it's not obvious, due to the umpteen ways its modules are shipped
[12:41] <cjwatson> I guess I need to use the new relative import syntax
[12:45] <geser> bdrung: will take a look what I can accomplish with short free time
[12:46] <phillw> Hi good people, I hve no idea how to help on this one. on boot up the system halts with error [ 8.980960] pcmcia_socket pcmcia_socket1: cs: IO port probe 0x3000-0x7ffff: excluding 0x3000-ox30ff 0x3400-0x34ff 0x380-0x38ff 0x3c00-0x3cff
[12:46] <phillw> Do any of you have an idea what it is complaining about / how to fix it?
=== doko_ is now known as doko
[13:08] <bdrung> geser: can you code perl?
[13:08] <bdrung> geser: there are some requests around this part of dch.
[13:11] <geser> bdrung: not really, it's enough to read some perl (as long it doesn't use it's magic $ variables) and to patch simple things
[13:12] <bdrung> me too.
=== jalcine is now known as jacky
[13:42] <sconklin> @pilot in
=== udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive open | Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: ev, apw, sconklin
[13:44] <infinity> That's quite the pilot party going on in the topic.
[13:44] <geser> redundancy :)
[13:45] <geser> two pilots can crash and we still have on pilot left flying
[13:45]  * infinity doesn't think he could call apw a "hot spare" with a straight face.
[13:46] <mdeslaur> hehe
[14:03] <ketan_> .
[14:18] <hyperair> jbicha_: ping. will clutter 1.10.4 be sru'd to precise?
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
[14:36] <vibhav> Can somebody nominate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wxmaxima/+bug/887806 for oneiric and precise?
[14:36] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 887806 in wxmaxima (Ubuntu) "wxmaxima is not in the 'open with' nautilus menu" [Undecided,Fix released]
[14:37] <vibhav> (Reproducable in both)
[14:38] <tumbleweed> you think that's important enough to SRU?
[14:38] <apw> infinity, i am spare
[14:41] <infinity> apw: That's not the half of the term I was debating. ;)
[14:41] <apw> infinity, you were debating that ... seems unlikely :)
[14:42] <vibhav> tumbleweed: Then how will the bug get fixed in precise?
[14:43] <tumbleweed> vibhav: it wouldn't :)
[14:43] <tumbleweed> vibhav: I'll nominate for precise
[14:43] <tumbleweed> done
[14:44] <vibhav> tumbleweed: I meant oneiric
[14:45] <vibhav> Does this mean that the user will never get the bug fixed?
[14:45] <vibhav> (in onerirc)
[14:46] <tumbleweed> vibhav: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#When
[14:46] <tumbleweed> I wouldn't consider that a high-impact bug. But if you do, I suggest worrying about precise first. If the SRU team agrees with you, do another SRU for oneiric
[14:46] <vibhav> ah
[14:47] <vibhav> And where can I contact the SRU team
[14:47] <tumbleweed> they'll see it when there's a pending upload in precise-proposed
[14:48] <vibhav> ah, thanks
[14:51] <dupondje> damn alot of people are complaining about Remmina missing copy/paste :p
=== scot-work is now known as scott-work
[15:01] <cyphermox> dupondje: point them to how to enable -proposed ;)
[15:07] <jbicha_> hyperair: are there particular bugs you're following that are fixed by clutter 1.10.4?
[15:10] <hyperair> jbicha_: scrolling
[15:10] <hyperair> jbicha_: i've filed a bug on launchpad with a patch.
[15:10] <hyperair> jbicha_: scrolling in gnome-sushi is broken.
[15:12] <dupondje> cyphermox: copy/paste fix not in proposed yet :)
[15:12] <cyphermox> dupondje: oh, right
[15:12] <cyphermox> I keep mixing both
[15:13] <cyphermox> dupondje: was copy-paste working before in remmina? otherwise it may be hard to justify it being a SRU fix ;)
[15:13] <Laney> is it fixed upstream / in quantal?
[15:14] <cyphermox> Laney: not yet either
[15:14] <dupondje> cyphermox: it never worked in remmina
[15:14] <cyphermox> aye
[15:14] <dupondje> BUT, its only since 12.04 that remmina is default
[15:14] <dupondje> it worked in Vinage/rdesktop ...
[15:14] <dupondje> so its bit tricky :)
[15:14] <cyphermox> dupondje: you said your fix was ready right? can we upload this to quantal now?
[15:15] <Laney> depending on how severe the fix is, it could probably go
[15:15] <Laney> i suggest you get upstream review
[15:15] <cyphermox> Laney: it's copy-paste support in remmina
[15:15] <dupondje> https://github.com/FreeRDP/Remmina/commit/263ae6c3971f442ca5a8cfc1b5a5cde6736a062f
[15:15] <Laney> yeah, I Got that
[15:15] <Laney> nice
[15:15] <cyphermox> nice, so it's upstream too
[15:16] <vibhav> What version do I use for SRU which are mergers from Debian?
[15:16] <Laney> well, that patch is pretty large
[15:16] <dupondje> true ...
[15:16] <Laney> I don't know if the SRU team would have it
[15:16] <vibhav> merges*
[15:16] <Laney> but regardless the first step is to get it fixed in quantal
[15:17] <vibhav> (The previous version is 11.08.0-1 )
[15:17] <cyphermox> dupondje: then we can have it reviewed by the sru team too
[15:19] <tumbleweed> vibhav: we don't merge for SRUs. But rather apply a minimal targetted patch
[15:22] <vibhav> tumbleweed: ah, So what version do I use?
[15:23] <vibhav> tumbleweed: 11.08.0-1ubuntu1 ?
[15:23] <Laney> is it an SRU into precise?
[15:24] <vibhav> yeah
[15:27] <Laney> there are some version guidelines https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Packaging here
[15:28] <Laney> most important is that precise <= precise-proposed <= precise-updates <= quantal
[15:39]  * dupondje is going to look if all Remmina patches in Ubuntu are upstream
[15:39] <dupondje> then we could get 1.0.1 out ^^
[15:42] <cyphermox> dupondje: cool
=== jbicha is now known as Guest90485
=== Guest90485 is now known as jbicha_
[15:47] <jbicha_> hyperair: I believe scrolling is still broken in gnome-sushi and gnome-documents
[15:47] <vibhav> tumbleweed: Done, could you please review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wxmaxima/+bug/887806 ?
[15:47] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 887806 in wxmaxima (Ubuntu Precise) "wxmaxima is not in the 'open with' nautilus menu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[15:48] <hyperair> jbicha_: no it's not, not in git master.
[15:48] <hyperair> jbicha_: the commit i isolated, when cherry-picked, solves the issue. it's running happily on my laptop right now
[15:49] <jbicha_> hyperair: but I'm using clutter 1.11.2 which is basically git master
[15:49] <hyperair> jbicha_: it isn't.
[15:49] <jbicha_> http://git.gnome.org/browse/clutter/log
[15:50] <hyperair> oh hey there wasn't a 1.11.2 on my tree
[15:50] <hyperair> nor was there a 1.10.4
[15:50] <tumbleweed> vibhav: seems reasnoable
[15:50] <hyperair> jbicha_: are you sure it still doesn't work in gnome sushi? =\ it works here.
[15:51] <hyperair> just the cherry-picked commit
[15:51] <vibhav> tumbleweed: What did you mean?
[15:51] <hyperair> b746044415ba8eb2d4c4263aeec038257f1bf2f3
[15:51] <tumbleweed> vibhav: I mean it looks good
[15:51] <vibhav> ah, thanks
[15:54] <jbicha_> hyperair: yes, I've rebooted and scrolling isn't working in sushi in Unity, there aren't any scrollbars and keyboard navigation doesn't work
[15:54] <hyperair> jbicha_: if keyboard navigation doesn't work, it's probably a different issue.
[15:54] <vibhav> tumbleweed: Could you sponser it?
[15:54] <vibhav> sponsor*
[15:55] <hyperair> jbicha_: keyboard navigation works for me even without the patch, but scrolling didn't, and the scrollbars are nonexistent
[15:55] <jbicha_> hyperair: yeah, maybe some stuff is improved but things still aren't working right
[15:56] <hyperair> jbicha_: which filetype are you testing with?
[15:56] <hyperair> jbicha_: i'm using pdf, which uses libevince
[15:57] <geser> could someone please give-back "tipa"? thx
[15:58] <jbicha_> hyperair: .txt, keyboard navigation seems to work for PDFs like you said
[16:10] <tumbleweed> vibhav: you were the last uploader for mercurial. Are you going to request a sync?
[16:12] <vibhav> tumbleweed: sync for?
[16:13] <tumbleweed> there's a newer version in Debian. It's your responsibility to see if the changes we applied in Ubuntu are still relevant
[16:14] <vibhav> ah, let me see
[16:20] <vibhav> tumbleweed: I can see http://selenic.com/repo/hg/rev/80f3ae36f908 in the debian version
[16:21] <tumbleweed> vibhav: yup, that's why I suggested a sync :)
[16:21] <Darxus> What does "Toolchain Uploaded" on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule mean?  Quantal repos will be created two days from now?
[16:21] <vibhav> tumbleweed: So should I sync?
[16:22] <tumbleweed> vibhav: well, if you merged, there wouldn't be anything left that's ubuntu specific. So yes, I think so
[16:24] <cjwatson> Darxus: that's a deadline, it's actually done already
=== carif_ is now known as carif
[16:25] <Darxus> cjwatson: Okay, so changes that will only be permitted in quantal can be made now?
[16:26] <cjwatson> Darxus: sure
[16:26] <Darxus> Cool, thanks.
[16:27] <Darxus> When does packages.ubuntu.com start showing quantal packages?
[16:28] <jdstrand> cjohnston: hi! I am the track lead for the security team and have some questions surrounding setting up roundtable meetings in summit. do you have a moment to help me?
[16:29] <vibhav> tumbleweed: done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mercurial/+bug/992696
[16:29] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 992696 in mercurial (Ubuntu) "Sync mercurial 2.1.2-2 (universe) from Debian sid (main)" [Undecided,New]
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
[16:55] <hyperair> jbicha_: does scrolling work for pdfs with the new clutter?
[16:59] <geser> Darxus: ask Rhonda (e.g. in #ubuntu-motu) about her plans when this will be done
[17:00] <Darxus> geser: Getting quantal packages in packages.ubuntu.com?
[17:00] <lynxman> silly question, how can I create a quantal machine in pbuilder-dist (precise) or shall I still test my packages for quantal against precise for the moment?
[17:00] <geser> Darxus: yes
[17:00] <Darxus> Thanks.
[17:01] <geser> lynxman: install debootstrap from precise-backports (or create the missing symlink yourself)
[17:01] <lynxman> geser: cool, ty :)
[17:05] <jbicha_> hyperair: yes, except for the lack of scrollbars
[17:05] <hyperair> jbicha_: were the scrollbars there to begin with?
[17:06] <hyperair> jbicha_: they're not there in oneiric either.
[17:06] <jbicha_> hyperair: probably not
[17:06] <hyperair> jbicha_: so could we have 1.10.4 or otherwise cherry-pick the commit for precise-proposed?
[17:07] <hyperair> not being able to scroll a pdf makes gnome-sushi pretty useless in that arena
[17:09] <jbicha_> hyperair: you could upload 1.10.4 to p-proposed if you want, I was just curious if we already had LP bugs that it fixed
[17:09] <hyperair> jbicha_: yes, i filed a bug, and uploaded a debdiff.
[17:10] <hyperair> bug #990302
[17:10] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 990302 in clutter-1.0 (Ubuntu) "Scrolling for embedded Gtk+ widgets is broken in Clutter" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/990302
[17:10] <hyperair> jbicha_: ^
[17:10] <hyperair> i don't have upload access to main
[17:11] <jbicha_> hyperair: ah ok
[17:11] <hyperair> jbicha_: i was wondering if 1.10.4 was giong to be uploaded into precise-proposed, though. that would make the cherry-picking pointless.
[17:12] <jbicha_> I think I'll just upload 1.10.4, thanks
[17:18] <hyperair> jbicha_: thanks.
[17:22] <jbicha_> hyperair: can you convert your bug into an SRU bug for 1.10.4?
[17:25] <hyperair> jbicha_: sure, but i don't really have the time for it right now. i have an exam tomorrow that i should have been studying for this afternoon but ended up bisecting that clutter bug instead. ;-)
=== davidcalle_ is now known as davidcalle
[19:44] <cjohnston> jdstrand: pong
[19:47] <jdstrand> cjohnston: hi! I saw your email and watched the video. I'm fine with how to create meetings/sessions for the most part, but I have questions on how to approve them. I know about +settopics and used that for approving things that were in launchpad
[19:47] <cjohnston> yup
[19:47] <jdstrand> cjohnston: however, it is customary for my team to have roundtables as the first session of each day
[19:47] <cjohnston> yup
[19:48] <jdstrand> cjohnston: I created those in summit, but don't know how to approve them or how to make them be the first session of the day
[19:48] <jdstrand> ie, if I click 'Admin', I'm simply told I don't have privileges to change anything
[19:48] <cjohnston> if you are assigned as a track lead, and have the "Create a meeting" vs the "Propose a meeting" your meetings are auto scheduled
[19:48] <cjohnston> jdstrand: hangout?
[19:49] <jdstrand> cjohnston: ok. (fyi, I don't have 'create a meeting')
[19:49] <cjohnston> jdstrand: you have propose a meeting?
[19:49] <jdstrand> yes
[19:49] <cjohnston> hrm
[19:49] <cjohnston> one sec
[19:49] <jdstrand> which is what I used (and I am the security track lead)
[19:50] <cjohnston> can you do a hangout?
[19:50] <cjohnston> or phone if your US
[19:50] <jdstrand> sure
[19:54] <cjohnston> grr
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
[20:51] <nigelb> sabdfl: mind joining classroom channels? :)
[20:51] <sabdfl> nigelb, will do, on the hour
[20:52] <nigelb> sabdfl: Thanks!
[20:52] <Laney> my, these patch pilots sure are dedicated
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
[21:42] <sconklin> @pilot out
=== udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive open | Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: ev, apw
[21:44] <Laney> :P
[21:44] <infinity> ev, apw: Do you two plan to patch pilot for the next week? ;)
[21:45] <apw> @pilot out
=== udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive open | Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: ev
[21:47] <Monotoko> hey, why are users homes not set, by default, to 600 any more?
[21:48] <Monotoko> (12.04)
[21:50] <mdeslaur> Monotoko: they've never been set to 600 on ubuntu
[21:51] <Monotoko> mdeslaur, really? I could never access another users files unless I was root/had sudo permissions on 10.04
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
[21:52] <mdeslaur> Monotoko: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Permissive_Home_Directory_Access
[21:53] <Monotoko> mdeslaur, thank you... would it not be a good idea to have this as an option in Ubiquity when you install?
[21:54] <mdeslaur> Monotoko: I don't think adding an install option for that would be useful for most users. If you're technical enough that you know what you want, you can easily change it after installation.
[21:55] <Monotoko> mdeslaur, most users will assume by default that their directories are protected, even Windows asks up front if you want protection
[21:56] <mdeslaur> Monotoko: most users want to share files. Even OS X has permissive home directories by default. This has been discussed to death already.
[21:57] <Monotoko> mdeslaur, which is why I'm suggesting adding it as an option during the install process, just a tickbox... I've just had my mother going through all my files thinking she had her own account and I was the sudo user... I was never informed otherwise
[22:00] <Monotoko> generally... if I add another account on my PC, it's because I don't want the person using it inside my account
[22:01] <infinity> Monotoko: As mdeslaur says, it's been discussed to death.  You're probably not going to argue any points that haven't already been argued.
[22:02] <infinity> Monotoko: We don't tend to add questions to the installer (in fact, we prefer to remove them), and this isn't something that matters to most people.  To the people it does matter to, they have very polarised opinions, and we decided to go with permissive homes.  It's simple to change the default.
[22:03] <Monotoko> infinity, so I don't understand why it's still not an option... or at the very least given on the screen as information during install, you have to actually go looking for the information (which most home users don't do) or find out the hard way when someone can access your files
[22:03] <mdeslaur> Monotoko: you can also check the "Encrypt my home directory" checkbox during install, which is a lot better than simply changing permissions on your home directory
[22:03] <infinity> (And, if I recall, this is the same default Windows has and, no, I don't recall it ever asking during install if I cared, so "they do it better/different" is a straw man)
[22:04] <infinity> Monotoko: Surely, you realize that if we asked/informed about every feature/option that everyone thought was important, the installer would be a mess, right?
[22:04] <maco> one more tickbox = twice as many code paths (exponential increases)
[22:04] <Monotoko> infinity, it was just an example, in Windows setting a password is optional (bad) but if you set one, it then also asks if you want to make it private
[22:04] <infinity> Monotoko: Just because this one's important to you, doesn't mean it's the same one that's important to everyone.
[22:04] <maco> +1 to encrypting your home dir
[22:06] <Monotoko> infinity, okay... maybe not during install, but at least when you're adding a user? It can't be too hard to write some text saying that user will be able to access others homes if you don't do "this" (hell, I would do it if you'll accept the patch?)
[22:06] <Monotoko> if it's been discussed to death... it's probably because people get burned by this, just like I have
[22:07] <infinity> It's been discussed in both directions.
[22:07] <maco> Monotoko: i believe the option to encrypt your dir so that it is really-for-reals not going to be seen by others is in the add-a-new-user dialog, but if it's not, that's a bug
[22:07] <infinity> Permissive homes are somewhat of a UNIX tradition.  I tend to find it a bit shocking when people expect otherwise, and don't check.
[22:07] <maco> changing the permissions just means i reboot your box into single user mode to see your data
[22:08] <maco> encrypting it prevents tht
[22:08] <Monotoko> infinity, as I say... I come from a Windows background (sadly) ;)
[22:08] <infinity> Permissive homes are also the Windows status quo.
[22:08] <infinity> Unless that changed in 7 or 8 when I wasn't looking.
[22:08] <infinity> But it certainly was in all previous NT releases.
[22:08] <infinity> Just sayin'.
[22:09] <infinity> And it never "asked".
[22:09] <maco> i recall being able to see others' files in xp, but maybe they changed it in vista when they tried to bolt security onto a broken window?
[22:09] <Monotoko> infinity, Windows XP does ask when you set a password on your account
[22:09] <Monotoko> it brings up a dialog with some text that tells you that other users can still see your files, and would you like to make them private
[22:10] <Monotoko> *asks if you would
[22:12] <infinity> I'm pretty sure I've never seen this dialog.  But alright.  It's somewhat unrelated to the discussion anyway.
[22:13] <Monotoko> infinity, http://i.techrepublic.com.com/gallery/94185-500-363.png
[22:14] <Monotoko> I know I'm side tracking, and I know Windows isn't the best example of good security, but surely you see my point?
[22:15] <infinity> My never seeing this probably has to do with never having installed a system without a password.
[22:16] <infinity> Anyhow.  Like I said.  Unrelated.  We offer an "encrypt your home directory" option in the installer.
[22:16] <infinity> I'm failing to see how that's not enough.
[22:16] <infinity> Relying on UNIX file permissions to save you from people with physical access to a machine is a losing battle.
[22:16] <infinity> And on server with many users, I'd expect people to know how to change the default, if they want to.
[22:17] <infinity> (Most multi-user systems tend to prefer permissive, though, cause man, it's a pain to share things otherwise)
[22:18] <Monotoko> infinity, do you really think a user migrating from Windows is going to hit the encrypt button? It has some negative connotations for whatever reason amongst most users, a real life analogy would be your neighbour walking into your home uninvited, now if you invited them (laxed the permissions or shared something with them) then it's different
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[22:20] <Monotoko> if I want someone to access my home, I add them to my user group... the point is that the default should usually be the safest option, or at least warn you that your door is unlocked and anyone on the system can walk in
[22:29] <Monotoko> it just... doesn't sit right, I mean the root user is disabled because that's the safest way and stops users getting into trouble or screwing it up and it's secure, then you completely take a turn around and lax permissions around users
[22:31] <infinity> Dude, it's a simple thing to change.  I think when several people say "It's been discussed to death" what we mean is "your opinion won't change how it's been for the last 8 years", but we're trying to avoid coming off like jerks.
[22:32] <infinity> There's nothing "lax" about permissive homes as they are.  We take great pains to make sure that we store private data in less permissive directories (see ~/.ssh, ~/.config, etc)
[22:33] <larsduesing> aehm, short question - how to get rid of bug attachments in launchpad, which are not sent by me?
[22:33] <larsduesing> (there are login-data in an attachment...)
[22:33] <infinity> larsduesing: Oh dear.  I can hide that and escalate for more permanent removal.  /msg me a number?
[22:34] <larsduesing> done
[22:34] <Monotoko> infinity, sorry... I've had a bit of a day today with the default.. just thought I'd come talk to you guys, but if I'm hitting a brick wall it's fine, il remember it in future ._.
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[23:03] <infinity> nixternal: For instance, "apt-cache show coreutils | grep ^Task" will show you that it's in minimal.
[23:03] <infinity> nixternal: If you're not generating those headers (via extra overrides fed to apt-ftparchive, or some other hackish method), you have no tasks.
[23:04] <nixternal> and let me guess, seeing as i am using a ppa right now for testing, something tells me that I can't get/set task headers
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[23:07] <infinity> nixternal: Uhm, yeah, you're going to have to do that sort of thing locally.
[23:08] <infinity> nixternal: Of course, you can build in the PPAs, download the debs, and then do the local apt-ftparchive scanning.
[23:08] <infinity> nixternal: So, all is not lost. :P
[23:08] <nixternal> fun fun, thanks dude for pointing me in some sort of direction. at least it is closer than the direction i was heading :)
[23:08] <nixternal> even better, i have a local buildd with local apt-ftparchive
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[23:19] <infinity> doko: Erm, you traded broken multilibs on armel for broken multilibs on armhf?
[23:21] <doko> infinity, the armhf gcc-multilib should be installable. do you think it's not?
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[23:32] <doko> infinity, I thought the tex mess was fixed? https://launchpadlibrarian.net/103804133/buildlog_ubuntu-quantal-i386.gcc-snapshot_20120501-1ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
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[23:37] <infinity> doko: It needs a publisher run still.
[23:37] <infinity> doko: I'll do a mass give-back when it's happy on all arches.
[23:37] <doko> thanks, afk now
[23:38] <infinity> doko: As for the gcc-4.7 multilib thing, it's FTBFS on armhf...
[23:38] <infinity> doko: Same way as it was previously on armel.
[23:38] <infinity> doko: Didn't you notice that in your PPA?
[23:38] <doko> infinity, sure, but the current binaries are installable
[23:38] <infinity> Well, yes.  I was just referring to the part where it's obviously still broken. ;)
[23:38] <infinity> The old ones should still work for now, yes.
[23:40] <doko> it's in a state that I can upload to quantal directly. this improvement was worth the binary copy
[23:41] <infinity> Heh, fair enough.
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