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| zyga | hey guys | 17:55 |
|---|---|---|
| zyga | hrw, ricardo! | 17:55 |
| zyga | hrw, please get me a t-shirt while the stock lasts ;-) | 17:56 |
| zyga | is the IRC feed on the screen? | 18:01 |
| wookey_ | embedded is cool | 18:01 |
| wookey_ | zyga - insult someone and see if they reply | 18:02 |
| wookey_ | emdebian grip will get you down to 60MB or so, but that's not 'really small' | 18:04 |
| wookey_ | this idea was emdebian's scheme in about 2001 :-) | 18:05 |
| wookey_ | there is a very old implementations but it used CML to do the configuring, and CML is dead. | 18:06 |
| zyga | I have a use case | 18:07 |
| zyga | ! | 18:07 |
| zyga | wookey_, ^^ | 18:07 |
| Dr_Who | the concern I've always had with post processing or tools that put together the "minimal" fs based on a script is either way the intelligence is outside of the packaging system and away from the packages themselves, so a package doesn't direct to the system it will be installed into what a minimum install is, so as times and packages change you have ongoing maint | 18:08 |
| wookey_ | yeah we like this stuff :-) | 18:08 |
| zyga | wookey_, give me a tool that takes ubuntu archive and gives me a read-only initramfs image that I can boot and reboot and turn off the power and never corrupt the rootfs | 18:08 |
| zyga | hrw, hey :) | 18:08 |
| Dr_Who | yeah we are all fans :-) | 18:08 |
| zyga | how would I just do that? | 18:09 |
| wookey_ | zyga wants it from the archve, not from a running machine. Can initramfs do that? | 18:09 |
| zyga | maybe what I'm asking for is a tool that does that | 18:09 |
| zyga | I'm sure it's doable | 18:09 |
| zyga | wookey_, I really want to make that from my x86 system | 18:10 |
| zyga | wookey_, then I want to copy that image to SD | 18:10 |
| zyga | wookey_, if mkinitramfs is the tool, I'll check it out | 18:10 |
| wookey_ | The question is do we need to go smaller than what emdebian-grip does? (makes image about 2/3rds size) | 18:11 |
| wookey_ | without just decided we want openWRT or buildroot | 18:11 |
| wookey_ | The model people don;t want small images - they just want minimal executed instructions | 18:12 |
| zyga | wookey_, without a use case to drive this discussion is hard | 18:14 |
| wookey_ | Does the router have enough RAM to run ubuntu? | 18:15 |
| wookey_ | It's simpler. | 18:16 |
| wookey_ | I wouldn;t say worse engineered | 18:16 |
| zyga | wookey_, most ISP-giveaway routers I saw have between 4 and 16MB of ram | 18:17 |
| wookey_ | Why does someone want to run un-upgradeable ubuntu on router rather than openWRT or buildroot (or yocto/OE)? | 18:17 |
| wookey_ | Is it really useful? | 18:17 |
| zyga | wookey_, more familiar maybe? | 18:18 |
| zyga | wookey_, + the upgrade would be image based, not package based | 18:18 |
| rsalveti | yeah, we should just go with ubuntu/debian once we decided to have a working rootfs that would be able to update itself with packages | 18:18 |
| zyga | wookey_, but routers run mips a lot and we don't have that supported | 18:18 |
| wookey_ | debian does :-) | 18:18 |
| rsalveti | if you just want to be image oriented, using ubuntu is useful but we'd have better tools/distros to do that | 18:18 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Audio: | ||
| zyga | wookey_, kernels could be a problem | 18:19 |
| wookey_ | agreed | 18:19 |
| zyga | and you may brick some devices with bad image (where brick I mean it's hard to recover without extra tools/hw) | 18:20 |
| wookey_ | Emdebian baked targets exactly this area too | 18:20 |
| chihchun | you can still upgrade openwrt package with opkg anyway | 18:20 |
| wookey_ | (un-upgradeable, but debian=packaged based) | 18:21 |
| wookey_ | i.e use apt externally so all metadata is external to image | 18:21 |
| wookey_ | still hard to get under 50MB | 18:21 |
| wookey_ | kind of... | 18:21 |
| wookey_ | SO yes I thinkg you can do this | 18:22 |
| wookey_ | but I haven't actually treid myself | 18:22 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u | ||
| wookey_ | It uses apt/dpkg | 18:22 |
| wookey_ | but ocnfigured to keep metadata on the build machine | 18:22 |
| chihchun | get under 50Mb means you probably need a customized feed package which using only busybox and small libraries | 18:22 |
| wookey_ | go look up 'emdebian baked' | 18:23 |
| wookey_ | chihchun: exactly - you have to go to busybox instead of gnu base | 18:23 |
| wookey_ | and debian/ubuntu don;t resally support that | 18:23 |
| wookey_ | We did the work once in emdebian crush but it was really hard and not really maintainable | 18:24 |
| zyga | busybox in ubuntu would be nice | 18:24 |
| wookey_ | yes the inirmafs idea can make small images | 18:24 |
| zyga | as an option | 18:24 |
| wookey_ | but I stil don;t really see what you get from using 'ubuntu initramfs' over openWRT or buildroot | 18:24 |
| wookey_ | because you've thrown away most of the goodness | 18:25 |
| zyga | wookey_, I just want to use the ubuntu archive | 18:25 |
| wookey_ | I guess the /etc layout is more conventional | 18:25 |
| timchen119 | I rememberd freebsd could installed their base system under 50mb without busybox when they're 2.X, not sure about now. | 18:25 |
| chihchun | the good feature of openwrt/openembedded is they also build dev env for you, how we do if we use initramfs approach | 18:25 |
| zyga | wookey_, I don't want to learn about other distros / systems | 18:25 |
| zyga | wookey_, just take a list of packages and get a small image that I can boot | 18:26 |
| wookey_ | initramfs boots off busybox right? | 18:26 |
| zyga | wookey_, and optionally from initramfs, that I can ensure sudden power loss is not going to cripple it | 18:26 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Url: | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u | ||
| wookey_ | cross-arch installs work except for pre-inst scripts... | 18:27 |
| zyga | wookey_, how many packages need pre-inst scripts? | 18:27 |
| wookey_ | which mostly don;t matter, but do for a few things (like mysql) | 18:27 |
| zyga | wookey_, what happens with other scripts? do they run via qemu or on first boot ? | 18:27 |
| wookey_ | AH. OK. yes, that avoids the issue | 18:27 |
| wookey_ | OK, so what is need to try this idea out? | 18:28 |
| wookey_ | Does initramfs use busybox? Or GNU? | 18:29 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20498/foundations-q-embedded-rootfs/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u | ||
| wookey_ | emdebian-grip tools take out docs from existing packages | 18:31 |
| wookey_ | (and languages) | 18:31 |
| wookey_ | otherwise packages are binary identical | 18:31 |
| wookey_ | Like hrw says that is instal-time stripping | 18:32 |
| wookey_ | emdbeina-grip is pre-install (after package build) | 18:32 |
| chihchun_ | initramfs uses busybox-initramfs | 18:33 |
| wookey_ | emdebian-grip overall gets you about 1/3rd smaller on a base system | 18:34 |
| hrw | finally wrote name correctly | 18:34 |
| wookey_ | how do the initramfs tools deal with running stuff on top of busybox OK? | 18:35 |
| wookey_ | you can use dpkg from outside the image. so the data lives outside the image. | 18:36 |
| wookey_ | gzipped apt files would be nice | 18:38 |
| hrw | apt files you can just remove | 18:39 |
| hrw | dpkg files are problem | 18:39 |
| wookey_ | you have to download them again each time you want to update/upgrade, but yes. | 18:39 |
| hrw | status can be compressed but info/ directory would have to be tarred to not eat inodes | 18:39 |
| hrw | wookey_: you would fetch them anyway on update | 18:39 |
| wookey_ | I still haven't understood how initramfs made from ubuntu binaries works OK with busybox, but standard image cannot use busybox. | 18:40 |
| wookey_ | problem is usually use of unsupported options in init scripts or install scripts | 18:41 |
| wookey_ | and mount | 18:41 |
| wookey_ | and file | 18:41 |
| wookey_ | and all sorts of stuff | 18:41 |
| wookey_ | It is like the problem of using /bin/sh oinstead of bin/bash | 18:42 |
| wookey_ | if something _really_ needs coreutils it needs to say so... | 18:42 |
| wookey_ | 'essential' gets in your way here. | 18:43 |
| wookey_ | because thngs don't declare their deps at the low-end | 18:44 |
| wookey_ | indeed. I mean that you don't know whether a package need real mount or busybox mount | 18:44 |
| wookey_ | pics are embedded | 18:45 |
| udsbotu | uds-grand-ballroom-g: 5 minutes left in this session! | 18:50 |
| udsbotu | uds-grand-ballroom-g: 4 minutes left in this session! | 18:51 |
| rsalveti | thanks! | 18:51 |
| rsalveti | lots of linaro folks | 18:51 |
| rsalveti | :-) | 18:51 |
| Dr_Who | thanks! | 18:51 |
| udsbotu | uds-grand-ballroom-g: 3 minutes left in this session! | 18:52 |
| udsbotu | uds-grand-ballroom-g: 2 minutes left in this session! | 18:53 |
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| udsbotu | uds-grand-ballroom-g: This session has ended. | 18:55 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Other | Feedback on Precise Release and Improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20298/other-q-prior-release-feedback/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u | ||
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| NMinker | Did you just say the upgrade bug for amd64 still exists on the Precise CDs? | 19:19 |
| bilal | NMinker: Not sure but I think that bug was squashed long ago | 19:19 |
| bilal | not exactly "long ago" but I mean before Precise release | 19:20 |
| NMinker | Alright, good to know | 19:20 |
| bilal | NMinker: Again, don't take my word to be 100% sure, since I could be wrong | 19:20 |
| bilal | since such bugs are largely hardware-specific. | 19:21 |
| bilal | and there's a fair chance that someone out there still has problems | 19:21 |
| NMinker | I had a problem when upgrade my amd64 VM (my normal one and the one I have for building ChromiumOS) from Natty to Oneiric | 19:22 |
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| cjwatson | NMinker: we fixed several such bugs, but not necessarily yours; please file a bug with 'ubuntu-bug update-manager' if you find problems with upgrades to 12.04, so that we have a chance of fixing them by 12.04.1 | 19:25 |
| udsbotu | uds-gb-g: 5 minutes left in this session! | 19:54 |
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| udsbotu | uds-gb-g: This session has ended. | 19:59 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-g/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g.log | ||
| sladen | works for me! | 20:49 |
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| cjwatson | wc | 23:56 |
| cjwatson | (oops) | 23:56 |
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