=== IdleOne is now known as Guest21295 === Guest21295 is now known as IdleOne === daker is now known as daker__ [17:55] hey guys [17:55] hrw, ricardo! [17:56] hrw, please get me a t-shirt while the stock lasts ;-) [18:01] is the IRC feed on the screen? [18:01] embedded is cool [18:02] zyga - insult someone and see if they reply [18:04] emdebian grip will get you down to 60MB or so, but that's not 'really small' [18:05] this idea was emdebian's scheme in about 2001 :-) [18:06] there is a very old implementations but it used CML to do the configuring, and CML is dead. [18:07] I have a use case [18:07] ! [18:07] wookey_, ^^ [18:08] the concern I've always had with post processing or tools that put together the "minimal" fs based on a script is either way the intelligence is outside of the packaging system and away from the packages themselves, so a package doesn't direct to the system it will be installed into what a minimum install is, so as times and packages change you have ongoing maint [18:08] yeah we like this stuff :-) [18:08] wookey_, give me a tool that takes ubuntu archive and gives me a read-only initramfs image that I can boot and reboot and turn off the power and never corrupt the rootfs [18:08] hrw, hey :) [18:08] yeah we are all fans :-) [18:09] how would I just do that? [18:09] zyga wants it from the archve, not from a running machine. Can initramfs do that? [18:09] maybe what I'm asking for is a tool that does that [18:09] I'm sure it's doable [18:10] wookey_, I really want to make that from my x86 system [18:10] wookey_, then I want to copy that image to SD [18:10] wookey_, if mkinitramfs is the tool, I'll check it out [18:11] The question is do we need to go smaller than what emdebian-grip does? (makes image about 2/3rds size) [18:11] without just decided we want openWRT or buildroot [18:12] The model people don;t want small images - they just want minimal executed instructions [18:14] wookey_, without a use case to drive this discussion is hard [18:15] Does the router have enough RAM to run ubuntu? [18:16] It's simpler. [18:16] I wouldn;t say worse engineered [18:17] wookey_, most ISP-giveaway routers I saw have between 4 and 16MB of ram [18:17] Why does someone want to run un-upgradeable ubuntu on router rather than openWRT or buildroot (or yocto/OE)? [18:17] Is it really useful? [18:18] wookey_, more familiar maybe? [18:18] wookey_, + the upgrade would be image based, not package based [18:18] yeah, we should just go with ubuntu/debian once we decided to have a working rootfs that would be able to update itself with packages [18:18] wookey_, but routers run mips a lot and we don't have that supported [18:18] debian does :-) [18:18] if you just want to be image oriented, using ubuntu is useful but we'd have better tools/distros to do that === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Audio: [18:19] wookey_, kernels could be a problem [18:19] agreed [18:20] and you may brick some devices with bad image (where brick I mean it's hard to recover without extra tools/hw) [18:20] Emdebian baked targets exactly this area too [18:20] you can still upgrade openwrt package with opkg anyway [18:21] (un-upgradeable, but debian=packaged based) [18:21] i.e use apt externally so all metadata is external to image [18:21] still hard to get under 50MB [18:21] kind of... [18:22] SO yes I thinkg you can do this [18:22] but I haven't actually treid myself === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u [18:22] It uses apt/dpkg [18:22] but ocnfigured to keep metadata on the build machine [18:22] get under 50Mb means you probably need a customized feed package which using only busybox and small libraries [18:23] go look up 'emdebian baked' [18:23] chihchun: exactly - you have to go to busybox instead of gnu base [18:23] and debian/ubuntu don;t resally support that [18:24] We did the work once in emdebian crush but it was really hard and not really maintainable [18:24] busybox in ubuntu would be nice [18:24] yes the inirmafs idea can make small images [18:24] as an option [18:24] but I stil don;t really see what you get from using 'ubuntu initramfs' over openWRT or buildroot [18:25] because you've thrown away most of the goodness [18:25] wookey_, I just want to use the ubuntu archive [18:25] I guess the /etc layout is more conventional [18:25] I rememberd freebsd could installed their base system under 50mb without busybox when they're 2.X, not sure about now. [18:25] the good feature of openwrt/openembedded is they also build dev env for you, how we do if we use initramfs approach [18:25] wookey_, I don't want to learn about other distros / systems [18:26] wookey_, just take a list of packages and get a small image that I can boot [18:26] initramfs boots off busybox right? [18:26] wookey_, and optionally from initramfs, that I can ensure sudden power loss is not going to cripple it === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Url: | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u [18:27] cross-arch installs work except for pre-inst scripts... [18:27] wookey_, how many packages need pre-inst scripts? [18:27] which mostly don;t matter, but do for a few things (like mysql) [18:27] wookey_, what happens with other scripts? do they run via qemu or on first boot ? [18:27] AH. OK. yes, that avoids the issue [18:28] OK, so what is need to try this idea out? [18:29] Does initramfs use busybox? Or GNU? === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20498/foundations-q-embedded-rootfs/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u [18:31] emdebian-grip tools take out docs from existing packages [18:31] (and languages) [18:31] otherwise packages are binary identical [18:32] Like hrw says that is instal-time stripping [18:32] emdbeina-grip is pre-install (after package build) [18:33] initramfs uses busybox-initramfs [18:34] emdebian-grip overall gets you about 1/3rd smaller on a base system [18:34] finally wrote name correctly [18:35] how do the initramfs tools deal with running stuff on top of busybox OK? [18:36] you can use dpkg from outside the image. so the data lives outside the image. [18:38] gzipped apt files would be nice [18:39] apt files you can just remove [18:39] dpkg files are problem [18:39] you have to download them again each time you want to update/upgrade, but yes. [18:39] status can be compressed but info/ directory would have to be tarred to not eat inodes [18:39] wookey_: you would fetch them anyway on update [18:40] I still haven't understood how initramfs made from ubuntu binaries works OK with busybox, but standard image cannot use busybox. [18:41] problem is usually use of unsupported options in init scripts or install scripts [18:41] and mount [18:41] and file [18:41] and all sorts of stuff [18:42] It is like the problem of using /bin/sh oinstead of bin/bash [18:42] if something _really_ needs coreutils it needs to say so... [18:43] 'essential' gets in your way here. [18:44] because thngs don't declare their deps at the low-end [18:44] indeed. I mean that you don't know whether a package need real mount or busybox mount [18:45] pics are embedded [18:50] uds-grand-ballroom-g: 5 minutes left in this session! [18:51] uds-grand-ballroom-g: 4 minutes left in this session! [18:51] thanks! [18:51] lots of linaro folks [18:51] :-) [18:51] thanks! [18:52] uds-grand-ballroom-g: 3 minutes left in this session! [18:53] uds-grand-ballroom-g: 2 minutes left in this session! [18:54] uds-grand-ballroom-g: 1 minute left in this session! [18:55] uds-grand-ballroom-g: This session has ended. === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Other | Feedback on Precise Release and Improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20298/other-q-prior-release-feedback/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u === alexhung_ is now known as alexhung [19:19] Did you just say the upgrade bug for amd64 still exists on the Precise CDs? [19:19] NMinker: Not sure but I think that bug was squashed long ago [19:20] not exactly "long ago" but I mean before Precise release [19:20] Alright, good to know [19:20] NMinker: Again, don't take my word to be 100% sure, since I could be wrong [19:21] since such bugs are largely hardware-specific. [19:21] and there's a fair chance that someone out there still has problems [19:22] I had a problem when upgrade my amd64 VM (my normal one and the one I have for building ChromiumOS) from Natty to Oneiric === zyga_ is now known as zyga [19:25] NMinker: we fixed several such bugs, but not necessarily yours; please file a bug with 'ubuntu-bug update-manager' if you find problems with upgrades to 12.04, so that we have a chance of fixing them by 12.04.1 [19:54] uds-gb-g: 5 minutes left in this session! [19:55] uds-gb-g: 4 minutes left in this session! [19:56] uds-gb-g: 3 minutes left in this session! [19:57] uds-gb-g: 2 minutes left in this session! [19:58] uds-gb-g: 1 minute left in this session! [19:59] uds-gb-g: This session has ended. === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-g/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g.log [20:49] works for me! === oSoMoN_ is now known as oSoMoN === zyga_ is now known as zyga [23:56] wc [23:56] (oops)