[05:37] <scientes> any modern arm netbooks?
[05:37] <scientes> is it still all TABLET TABLET TABLET
[05:38] <scientes> or is the AC100 still the cutting edge? with only 512MB ram
[05:44] <scientes> and where can i buy the ac100?
[05:45] <twb> scientes: I use TF101 as a netbook
[05:45] <twb> Otherwise you only have those shitty samsung and nanonotes and stuff
[05:45] <scientes> what about this one http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/products/touchbook.htm ?
[05:45] <scientes> eek single-core
[05:46] <twb> It looked good but it's one of those "hey I made this in my basement" products
[05:46] <twb> like the pandora
[05:46] <scientes> oooh T101 looks good
[05:46] <scientes> 1GB ram
[05:46] <twb> scientes: TF101 is a cunt to actually support all the peripherals like bt tho.
[05:46] <scientes> does it have the non-free nvidia driver? and does nouveau run on it?
[05:46] <twb> lilstevie has been working on it
[05:47] <scientes> how about that 5MP camera?
[05:47] <twb> I've never even tried to use the camera
[05:47] <scientes> is there some reasonable camera software?
[05:47] <twb> Um, I'm running ubuntu on mine
[05:48] <scientes> eek $600 is a bit big on the pricetag
[05:48] <scientes> well, i guess i've never tried debian/ubuntu as A camera
[05:48] <scientes> only managing photos from other camera
[05:48] <twb> I got mine to the point where it would give me an xterm and ssh and 802.11 and then I stopped caring about doing it "right"
[05:48] <scientes> lol, why not just use a dev board then , thats alot cheaper
[05:49] <twb> scientes: because dev boards do not have 10hr battery life
[05:49] <scientes> soooo again, what about nvidia prop, + nouveau
[05:49] <twb> scientes: AFAIK you cannot get accelerated graphics on it unless you run ChromeOS kernel
[05:49] <scientes> so is the price still $600?
[05:49] <twb> But there was some progress being made around 3.3 or 3.4 IIRC
[05:49] <scientes> twb, how about nouveau on ARM?
[05:49] <twb> NFI
[05:50] <scientes> and does the nvidia prop have a open-source shim too?
[05:50] <twb> Re price, it's now about two gens behind current, so probably it's $400 new
[05:50] <scientes> ok, where can i get it?
[05:50] <twb> scientes: random netbook vendor?  I got mine in officeworks or JB Hifi
[05:50] <scientes> im actually just going to recommend it to my dad
[05:50] <twb> Oh, so he's going to run android on it?
[05:50] <scientes> not sure
[05:51] <scientes> id much rather something that is OSS
[05:51] <twb> If you care about freedom, you might look at the efika mx or the yeloong loongson
[05:51] <twb> You can't walk into a store and get them, and they're crap hw, but they're very free
[05:51] <scientes> the yeloong is sure interesting
[05:52] <twb> Yeeloong is a stone cold bitch to get.  I have someone in china that has been trying to buy me one for like two years.
[05:52] <scientes> the only arm device i have is the sheevaplug which is extremely free
[05:52] <twb> sheevaplug is shite, I have one
[05:52] <scientes> yep
[05:52]  * scientes really wants armv7
[05:52] <twb> And the pogo burns out if you use both nics
[05:53] <scientes> honestly you dont need two nics
[05:53] <twb> If you want to run debian armhf or current ubuntu, you *need* armv7 anyway
[05:53] <scientes> people dont understand that MAC layer and ip layer are seperate
[05:53] <scientes> yes, armhf is really where it is out
[05:53] <scientes> and this oneis too slow for alot of things
[05:53] <twb> scientes: physical separation is a Good Thing though, e.g. for a router
[05:53] <scientes> however it makes a great mail server
[05:53] <TheMuso> twb: The pogo could have been a useful router, but if it burns out when you use the 2 NICs...
[05:54] <twb> TheMuso: if you use them at gige speed IIRC
[05:54] <scientes> twb, well, i've done it without that, which people dont understand that they can do
[05:54] <scientes> I just turn on transparent bridging mode in the "modem"
[05:54]  * scientes of which every one ive seen for a while is a rebranded ar47 mips
[05:54] <twb> TheMuso: passively cooled
[05:54] <TheMuso> twb: Right, and I would want to do that, given I have 100mbps cable, which is actually set at 120mbps by Telstra.
[05:55] <scientes> from TI
[05:55] <twb> AR47 huh?  Is that a mashup of Kalashnikov and Stoner rifles? ;-)
[05:55] <twb> TheMuso: you lucky bastard
[05:55] <TheMuso> twb: yes I am fortunate enogh to be able to get that.
[05:56] <twb> Did you suck trujillo off or something
[05:56] <TheMuso> No.
[05:56] <scientes> twb, http://paste.debian.net/167804/
[05:56] <TheMuso> he is no longer involved with Telstra.
[05:56] <scientes> they all have root telnet enabled by default from LAN
[05:56] <TheMuso> If he was, I doubt I'd have 100mbps cable.
[05:57] <scientes> http://paste.debian.net/167805/
[05:58] <scientes> oh wait, ar7, little freudian slip
[05:58] <scientes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-AR7
[05:59] <scientes> twb, so is the TF101 fairly well supported by ubuntu?
[05:59] <twb> scientes: not really
[05:59] <twb> scientes: but talk to lilstevie_
[05:59] <twb> scientes: ARM is not like x86 where you can just buy a box and most stuff will work
[06:00] <twb> scientes: ARM is more like you buy a box and *maybe* you can actually install *something* and it'll even boot, after six months
[06:00] <scientes> twb, well I guess my exp with sheevaplug mainline-ness has me a little diff on expectations
[06:00] <twb> Shrug
[06:01] <scientes> I am aware that there are plenty of non-free drivers on arm
[06:01] <twb> The situation is plenty better if you pick a box that lots of devs are also running
[06:01] <scientes> of course, thats why i ask here...
[06:01] <scientes> something like the vivaldi
[06:01] <twb> But AFAIK that only one like that atm is the panda
[06:01] <twb> And that's not a netbook
[06:01] <scientes> however a keyboard is kinda nice, i guess you can always use a usb keyboard
[06:02] <twb> scientes: not always :-)
[06:02] <twb> USB is master/slave (not peer/peer, like 1394), so if the tablet is set up as a slave, you can't hook up slave HIDs to it
[06:02] <scientes> twb, worked with the sheevaplug :)
[06:02] <scientes> oh yeah, usb gadget ports i see
[06:03] <scientes> 1394 also happens to support instant root.....
[06:03] <scientes> via DMA
[06:03] <twb> If you care about that you might as well avoid all EFI and ACPI too
[06:03] <twb> Good luck with that
[06:03] <scientes> and System Management Mode
[06:04] <twb> http://www.cyber.com.au/~twb/doc/tf101.txt are some old notes when I was actually trying to get my tf101 working fully
[06:04] <twb> There are newer models, e.g. TF Prime
[06:05] <scientes> classy quote of
[06:05] <scientes>    http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_on_Trusting_Trust :)
[06:06] <scientes> twb, the thing with 1394 is that you can easily reprogram an iPod
[06:06] <scientes> and if you HAVE firewire and someone just wants to sync their iPod you would be an asshole to refuse (of course they all just use usb now, so its kinda moot)
[06:07] <scientes> so id rather not have 1394 at all
[06:07] <twb> Well I don't know about that, but 1394 is IMO a categorically better protocol than USB
[06:07] <twb> When USB starts up, it has to fucking POLL for devices
[06:08] <twb> And I get the impression that USB 2 and 3 just layer more cruft on, instead of paring it down
[06:09] <scientes> http://www.hermann-uwe.de/blog/physical-memory-attacks-via-firewire-dma-part-1-overview-and-mitigation
[06:10] <twb> Shrug.  You fix that by downgrading MUST to SHOULD in the spec.
[06:11] <twb> Presumably the MMU should be preventing the 1394 device from speaking DMA to an arbitrary hunk of RAM
[06:11] <scientes> or by using an IOMMU
[06:11] <twb> Right
[06:11] <scientes> twb, you can't do it with a MMU, you need an IOMMU
[06:12] <twb> Aren't they standard these days?
[06:12] <scientes> not even on x86
[06:12] <scientes> in the CPUs they are standard, but few chipsets support it
[06:12] <twb> I thought AMD included them all the time
[06:12] <twb> Fair enough
[06:13] <twb> I wonder how, as a hardware buyer, I could check if a part would speak to my IOMMU
[06:13] <scientes> yeah, i've been excited about them for a while, whichout getting one,
[06:14] <scientes> I think telling people they can run windows in a VM and forward a whole GPU is a good selling point for those that play alot of games
[06:14] <twb> I wouldn't know.  I don't connect games machines to a network, and I don't dual-boot them as anything other than games machines
[06:15] <scientes> you wouldn't have to, networking is optional in virtualization
[06:15] <scientes> just means you can run both at the same time
[06:16] <twb> That assumes you trust the virtualization layer
[06:16] <scientes> otherwise you need wine for graphics
[06:16] <scientes> of course
[06:16] <twb> I certainly don't trust it as much as an air gap
[13:54] <djszapi> Hey! What type of ubuntu would you recommend for this toughbook ? http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughpad/us/secure-tablet-specs.asp Shall I put some ubuntu-arm on this ? If yes, which version ?
[13:59] <djszapi> perhaps 12.04 ?
[14:10] <djszapi> or would it be better to use 11.10 ?
[14:42] <gildean> djszapi: i'd start with the latest and only look back if absolutely necessary
[14:42] <gildean> what cpu is that running on?
[14:43] <djszapi> actually, not arm.
[14:43] <djszapi> I was wrong.
[14:43] <gildean> i've only played around with the "normal" toughbooks, never seen an arm-based one
[14:43] <djszapi> is 12.04 stable ?
[14:43] <gildean> 12.04 is released and marked as lts
[14:44] <gildean> lts = long term support (five years of updates)
[14:44] <gildean> imo the best release since 10.10
[14:45] <djszapi> shall I use 32 or 64 bit ?
[14:45] <djszapi> I have been using 64 bit on desktop since ever.
[14:46] <djszapi> but I am unsure if that is a risky selection for a toughbook.
[14:47] <gildean> djszapi: on arm?
[14:48] <gildean> ah, it wasn't arm
[14:48] <djszapi> gildean: it is apparently not an arm, no.
[14:49] <gildean> i'd use 64bit then
[14:49]  * djszapi is downloading the "12.04 ubuntu desktop i386" version.
[14:49] <djszapi> ok, redownloading...
[14:50] <gildean> iirc there are absolutelu no reason to use 32bit anymore if your processor is capable of 64
[14:50] <gildean> or afaik more than iirc
[14:50] <gildean> as there used to be some problems, but really haven't seen any for years
[14:50] <amitk> gildean: if it is memory-contrained (<2Gb) I'd used 32-bit to same some memory, but for almost everything else 64-bit makes sense
[14:50] <gildean> yeah, true
[14:50] <amitk> *save
[14:51] <gildean> but memory is so cheap these days, all of my crappy boxes have at least 4GB
[14:51] <gildean> basically you can get ddr2 for free
[14:51] <gildean> both dimm and so-dimm
[14:52] <djszapi> 8 GB memory
[14:52] <djszapi> ddr3
[14:52] <gildean> yeah, with 32bit you would waste 5GB
[14:54] <amitk> gildean: not with 32-bit LPAE kernels
[14:55] <djszapi> I guess this still works nowadays: "sudo dd if=/path/to/ubuntu.img of=/dev/sdX bs=1m "
[14:55] <djszapi> (having issues with the usb-creator because of the python 2 and 3 mess ;)
[14:55] <gildean> amitk: i've never tried, does it actually work well?
[14:56] <amitk> gildean: sure
[14:56] <gildean> compared to actually having 64bit?
[14:57] <gildean> not that there would be any point of running 32bit if the cpu has the instruction set, but anyways
[14:57] <amitk> gildean: it is for people that are stuck on 32-bit for some app that doesn't run on 64-bit (used to be Skype, etc., but no longer)
[15:00] <gildean> yeah, a thing of the past that i never tried
[15:00] <gildean> and prolly never will
[15:08] <djszapi> gildean: does this version use unity ?
[15:09] <djszapi> I am just worried about the autohide.
[15:09] <djszapi> the bar on the left, thati s.
[15:09] <djszapi> that is*
[15:26]  * djszapi is making "dd if=/home/lpapp/Downloads/ubuntu-12.04-desktop-amd64.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=1M"
[15:31] <amitk> djszapi: to a USB key? I use "startup disk creator" in ubuntu
[15:37] <gildean> djszapi: unity has been the default desktop since 11.04, but the latest version doesn't have autohide by default
[15:39] <djszapi> thanks god :)
[15:40] <gildean> you can set it under appearances if you want to try
[15:40] <gildean> it also has a sensitivity-bar so you can adjust the "pressure" needed to show the launcher
[15:41] <jhobbs> how do i do that
[15:41] <jhobbs> adjust the pressure
[15:41] <jhobbs> i'd like to adjust it to 0 please!
[15:43] <djszapi> gildean: err....touch does not really work after the "Try Ubuntu" or "Install Ubuntu" screen...
[15:43] <djszapi> on my toughbook, that is.
[15:43] <djszapi> booting from the usb flash drive...
[15:44]  * djszapi already sees ubuntu's poor hardware support for even installing that :(
[15:44] <gildean> jhobbs: under appearance->behavior
[15:44] <gildean> djszapi: did you "try ubuntu" first?
[15:44] <djszapi> like I said, I cannot even touch stuff
[15:45] <djszapi> no touch input accepted.
[15:45] <gildean> ok, so the touchscreen doesn't work ootb
[15:45] <djszapi> right
[15:45] <gildean> you'll need a mouse
[15:45] <djszapi> I do not have yet another usb port on the device
[15:45] <djszapi> just one, for the installation media
[15:46] <gildean> no bt mice or usb-hubs around?
[15:46] <djszapi> no, sorry.
[15:46] <gildean> toughbook should come with a usb-hub
[15:47] <djszapi> ok found a hub, but not related to the toughbook though
[15:47] <djszapi> interesting that I was able to remove the usb flash drive for putting the usb hub in there without loosing the ubuntu screen
[15:47] <gildean> at least the ones i've seen all had a 2-port hub with rubber cap
[15:47] <djszapi> oh, now it complains.
[15:47] <djszapi> have to reboot, I presume.
[15:47] <gildean> yeah
[15:49] <djszapi> gildean: I do not have the toughbook connected to the internet
[15:49] <djszapi> will that cause issues ?
[15:49] <djszapi> I have downloaded an about 700 MB iso.
[15:49] <djszapi> desktop AMD64 ISO, that is.
[15:50] <gildean> if you want to get the touchscreen working, i'm sure you'll ned something from the internet
[15:50] <djszapi> "Download updates while installing" box is unchecked.
[15:50] <gildean> but for installing internet is not needed
[15:54] <djszapi> gildean: installer crashed :(
[16:00] <gildean> djszapi: did you actually run the live-version first?
[16:01] <djszapi> gildean: nope
[16:01] <gildean> maybe just try that first?
[16:05] <djszapi> gildean: keeps crashing after a reboot :(
[16:08] <djszapi> gildean: what to do with the try ?
[16:08] <djszapi> I would need to install the system in the end anyway
[16:09] <gildean> i'd start by googling
[16:09] <djszapi> for ?
[16:09] <gildean> the model + ubuntu
[16:09] <djszapi> nothing found previously.
[16:10] <gildean> or something like that
[16:10] <gildean> also, you might be better off asking in the general ubuntu-channel instead of here
[16:10] <djszapi> I am now trying a customized installation
[16:18] <djszapi> gildean: to be honest, I rarely got help in #ubuntu, but will try there.
[16:20] <gildean> djszapi: then maybe on your countrys own channel
[16:21] <gildean> usually less people and more eager to help
[16:27] <angeloc> hi guys, do you know of a cheap arm panel pc as a complete product that you can recommend? I have plenty of beagleboard, pandaboard, igep platform, but for each one you have to develop an enclosure, find a compatible lcd with touch, etc ...
[16:29] <LetoThe2nd> use $SONSUMERGRADETABLET
[16:30] <angeloc> LetoThe2nd: tablet is not the same, they have not gpio ports easly accessible and generally lacking an ethernet port or an sd card reader, or usb or external monitor... htey are simply tablets, not panel pcs ...
[16:31] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: but they are cheap and come with an enclusure ;P
[16:32] <angeloc> LetoThe2nd: yes sure, but they are made for entertain!
[16:33] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: use http://www.phytec.de/de/produkte/low-cost-pnp-systeme/produktdetails/p/physys.html and put http://www.phytec.de/de/produkte/module-im-ueberblick/phycard/produktdetails/p/phycard-xl2.html inside
[16:33] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: or generally ask them.
[16:33] <ogra_> alternatovely just buy a lilliput LCD panel and attach it to one of your boards
[16:35] <angeloc> ogra_: yes it's what's i'm doing, but for some projects (here in Italy we are very strong with industrial automation) you cannot go wi a board with a monitor attacched
[16:36] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: and it's really a waste of time to ask for quotations, i'm looking for something well engineered with a clear price that I can order also in quantity of one!
[16:38] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i'm working for an electronics manufacturing company, we can create our platform, but we prefer to buy something done!
[16:39] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: well then you can ask http://www.garz-fricke.de/ or http://www.ultratronik.de/
[16:40] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: but saying: "i want exactly one, i want it now, i want it cheap, and it has to offer everything" is usually a bad starting point.
[16:41] <ogra_> well, i dont know any such device you can buy of the shelf beyond what i could google
[16:41] <LetoThe2nd> ogra_: an ac100 and an usb gpio expander :)
[16:41] <angeloc> LetoThe2nd: you don't say this when you buy your new shiny laptop! I'm aware of compromises, sure!
[16:41] <ogra_> haha
[16:42] <LetoThe2nd> ogra_: it even would run ubuntu, then.
[16:42] <ogra_> but is lacking a touchscreen
[16:43] <LetoThe2nd> angeloc: no, i'm just pointing out that you are very demanding and showing neither own effort nor willingness to trace any possibilities, you only say over and over again "i don't like that because of X, now give me the next suggestion". sorry, but that how you apper to me.
[16:43] <angeloc> LetoThe2nd: but going trough asking quotation, make a custom design, sign a non disclosure agreement, no this is not our way. Nevertheless we are an electronics manufacturing company, why ask someone else to make what we can do? I want a product, nobody assemble his laptot!
[16:44] <LetoThe2nd> nayways, i have given my ideas, mostly afk then again.
[16:44] <ogra_> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA5Nzk
[16:44] <ogra_> heh
[16:45] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i found this, http://www.developmentboard.net/board-packages/119-tenbyten6410-with-megadisplay7s-with-7pe.html
[16:46] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: it's like what i'm looking for, but cannot find a great support for linux (or ubuntu) it's a derivative of friendlyarm 6410
[16:47] <ogra_> is it v7 ?
[16:47] <LetoThe2nd> ogra_: no.
[16:47] <ogra_> no ubuntu then
[16:48] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: yes, no ubuntu
[16:51] <angeloc> ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i'm falling in love with igep platform, really small and amazing, but we have to make too internal work to make a product
[16:54]  * ogra_ goes for a smoke and then moves to the next UDS session
[16:55]  * LetoThe2nd goes off for the night
[18:38] <janimo`> marvin24, hi, did you say you had a 3.4 based ac100 tree somewhere ?
[19:02] <ogra_> janimo`, its somewhere in his gitorious trees
[19:02] <ogra_> janimo`, i'm running 3.1 here btw
[19:02] <janimo`> ogra_, I checked the git repo but did not see a branch with 3.4
[19:03] <janimo`> if there is one it makes sense to upload that and skip other versin altogether
[19:03] <ogra_> i have it cloned but not with me atm
[19:03] <ogra_> only if it fully works
[19:03] <ogra_> we should test it vs the 3.1 tree
[19:09] <ogra_> janimo`, http://gitorious.org/ac100/marvin24s-kernel/trees/for-next
[19:09] <janimo`> ah, for-next
[20:04] <travalas> I'm curious what is the ubuntu kernel to be used for the beagleboard-xM?  I see linux-image-omap but there are references to x86 in the description.
[20:45] <GrueMaster> travalas: The beagleXM kernel is the same rev as the x86/amd64 kernel.  It is from the mainline kernel.org stuff (not a dev kernel like the omap4/mx5/ac100 kernels).
[20:45] <GrueMaster> So, for 12.04, it is 3.2.  Not sure what kernel will ship with 12.10.
[21:01] <travalas> GrueMaster: so linux-image-omap is indeed correct?
[21:02] <GrueMaster> I believe so, yes.  To be sure, give me a sec to remote in to my home network.
[21:05] <travalas> i think i was using a nonstandard kernel on my beagleboardXM and i'd like to get back to the "stock kernel"
[21:05] <GrueMaster> linux-image-omap is a meta package.  You will want linux-image-<kernel version>-omap (i.e. linux-image-3.2.0-23-omap).
[21:07] <GrueMaster> If your system has the stock kernel installed, you can easily switch with "sudo flash-kernel <kernel>"  (sudo flash-kernel vmlinuz-3.2.0-23).
[21:07] <GrueMaster> Look in /boot
[21:21] <infinity> travalas: The references to x86 in the package description are just a cosmetic packaging bug, linux-image-omap is indeed the correct package to have installed.