[17:06] <mpt> I can't listen to this session (listening to another one), but in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, the phased updates session also discussed -proposed vs. -updates <http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20496/foundations-q-phased-updates/>
[17:07] <NMinker> Was (Listened to) just at that one
[17:40] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
[17:41] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
[17:42] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
[17:43] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
[17:44] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!
[17:45] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
[18:04] <godbyk> Release schedule for Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04:
[18:04] <godbyk> * May 31 – First draft completed: authors have updated and written new content; screenshots are in place.
[18:04] <godbyk> * June 15 – Editors have edited and proofread content.
[18:04] <godbyk> * June 22 – Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.
[18:04] <godbyk> * June 27 – Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.
[18:04] <godbyk> * June 30 – The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.
[18:04] <godbyk> I've pasted this into the pad, too.
[18:06] <godbyk> 12.04.1 is due July 19th.
[18:07] <godbyk> The release date of the 12.04 manual (English edition) is 30 June.  Translators can start working on it around that time as well.
[18:09] <hannie> Anyone here?
[18:09] <godbyk> Correct.
[18:09] <sagaci> yep
[18:09] <godbyk> The translators have to wait until after a string freeze.
[18:09] <godbyk> And that happens quite late for us.
[18:09] <godbyk> (After everyone's finished editing.)
[18:09] <hannie> I thought Joel would be physically present in room-h
[18:11] <godbyk> No, it's a bad thing. :-) That's why we didn't make a huge deal about it. We tried to just kind of kick it out the door so we could start on the next version and get things going in a more timely fashion again.
[18:14] <godbyk> Creating those short pamphlets/packets for specific topics is something that Ben Humphrey and I had discussed a couple years ago but never got around to doing.
[18:15] <godbyk> Another nice aspect of the manual is that it's self-contained.  You can give someone a single PDF or a printed book.
[18:17] <hannie> Is there anyone in G, Ballroom H who can chat with us here?
[18:17] <godbyk> That's why the manual was so late.
[18:17] <godbyk> The natty edition ended up being folded into the oneiric edition purely because it was so late already.
[18:18] <godbyk> Hopefully there won't be quite as many sweeping changes in the future.
[18:18] <godbyk> But if there are, we should prepare for that by bringing in more authors/editors.
[18:19] <hannie> and developers ;)
[18:19] <godbyk> The website is in a bzr repository, so we can grant access to more people.
[18:19] <daker> yes
[18:20] <godbyk> At the moment, most of the website updates are done by me manually.  (jobs postings and the like.)
[18:20] <godbyk> As far as the TeX Live stuff, I *think* that the Oneiric stuff is still out of date, but I'll check again. I believe that Debian is still reworking the texlive packages.
[18:20] <hannie> godbyk, it reminds me, I need to translate the text added to the website recently
[18:21] <godbyk> hannie: That means I'll need to sort out how to update the pot file. I'll have to pester daker for some help there, I think.
[18:21] <hannie> can I send you the text so you can add it to the Dutch pages?
[18:22] <godbyk> Ideally, I'd like to find some web developers to help create a web app so that authors can write/edit the text via our website instead of using LaTeX at all.
[18:23] <hannie> ah, he is calling for developers now. Good!
[18:24] <daker> godbyk, SUMO will replace help.ubuntu.com
[18:24] <godbyk> daker: I saw that.
[18:24] <godbyk> Well, we're installing TeX Live from upstream at the moment (which runs a perl script or shell script to install things).
[18:25] <godbyk> The script we have in bzr is just a shell script that checks to ensure you have all the required Ubuntu and TeX Live packages installed.
[18:25] <godbyk> That's true.  Another difference (IMO) is that it's more fun to write new stuff than it is to edit/modify existing stuff.
[18:25] <godbyk> (Having said that, there are probably sections of the manual that should be rewritten or looked at afresh.)
[18:26] <hannie> mind you, it can take three hours to install TexLive
[18:26] <godbyk> hannie: Or more depending on how fast your Internet connection is.
[18:26] <godbyk> To what end?
[18:26] <hannie> that is also a disadvantage I think
[18:29] <hannie> Beautiful nick on the pad: Bill Gates
[18:29] <godbyk> Quite old.
[18:29] <godbyk> It's something from 10.10, I think.
[18:30] <godbyk> As far as I can tell, the test site has a different look and a different backend, but doesn't provide any additional functionality.
[18:30] <godbyk> I'd like to have a website built that allows others to easily publish the manuals (so I'm not the only one who can do it.. bus factor and all.)
[18:33] <godbyk> Quickshot isn't being actively developed.
[18:33] <godbyk> I emailed the Quickshot devs and only got a response from one of them who said he was quite busy and didn't have much time to work on it.
[18:34] <godbyk> So we'll need to find some new devs to update Quickshot and bring it up to speed again.
[18:34] <godbyk> I think the docs team was discussing translated screenshots a while back, too, and I got the impression that Quickshot would be useful to them as well (if we get it running again).
[18:34] <hannie> Do you need to know about gtk for the development of Quivkshot?
[18:34] <godbyk> I haven't tried in ages, so I'm not sure.
[18:35] <godbyk> Basically, Quickshot knew what screenshots you needed to take...
[18:35] <daker> it's quickly + backend server
[18:35] <godbyk> ... and it would guide you through the process.
[18:35] <godbyk> And ensured that the screenshots were consistent across languages, screen resolutions, etc.
[18:35] <godbyk> It also uploaded the screenshots to our server.
[18:36] <godbyk> The lag time between when Ubuntu is released and when the manual is released?  I think it varies a bit.  Lemme dig through my email to see what the release dates where.
[18:46] <godbyk> That'd be useful to know.
[18:47] <godbyk> An easy way to contribute a bit later in the schedule is to help proofread the public draft (June 22).
[18:47] <hannie> I think we are especially in need of editors at the moment
[18:48] <godbyk> hannie: Do we still need chapter editors?
[18:48] <hannie> not many reactions on the list so far on my call for editors
[18:48] <hannie> godbyk, I sent an email, but I think it is wiser to contact people personally
[18:49] <hannie> *sent email to the mailing list that is
[18:49] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
[18:49] <godbyk> For 10.04, we release the original edition at the same time as Ubuntu 10.04 was released. We released a second edition of the manual for 10.04.01.
[18:49] <godbyk> We could do something similar for 12.04 and 12.04.1.
[18:50] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
[18:51] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
[18:52] <hannie> so far not many authors have visited #ubuntu-manual to ask questions
[18:52] <godbyk> hannie: You should add that to this weekend's agenda.
[18:52] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
[18:53] <hannie> ok
[18:53] <hannie> we'll make it an item on the agenda to see if help is needed
[18:53] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!
[18:54] <godbyk> Thanks, popey!
[18:54] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
[18:54] <popey> np dude
[18:55] <popey> i want a manual as much as you guys :D
[18:55] <hannie> thanks all of you. It was very useful.
[18:56] <sagaci> thanks everyone
[18:56] <godbyk> Thanks, sagaci!
[18:56] <hannie> see you sagaci
[19:15] <cboltz> Two notes about the dovecot profile:
[19:15] <cboltz> - we'll probably need a tunable with a "mailstore" variable
[19:16] <cboltz> - I'm just working on profiles for dovecot2 ;-)
[19:16] <cboltz> yes, opensuse - but dovecot is dovecot
[19:16] <cboltz> so it should work everywhere
[19:19] <cboltz> samba brings up another thing I did on openSUSE - automatically updated profiles based on the samba config
[19:19] <cboltz> (not sure if the script doing it is in upstream samba)
[19:19] <cboltz> this might be something which should be done for other profiles also
[19:19] <cboltz> the dovecot mailstore location might be a good candidate
[19:20] <sbeattie> cboltz: thanks
[19:21] <sbeattie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap
[19:22] <cboltz> seeing the roadmap, I'll probably be able to send some of the profiles listed there
[19:22] <sbeattie> cboltz: that would be awesome, thanks!
[19:23] <cboltz> like amavisd, postfix, winbind (smbd and nmbd already exist in bzr), spamassasin
[19:24]  * sbeattie needs to also genericize his postfix and postgrey policies and get them upstream
[19:25] <cboltz> sounds like we'll start a race on them ;-)
[19:33] <sbeattie> https://launchpad.net/apparmor-profiles
[19:38]  * cboltz can't login to the etherpad (dunno why) - can you post the content to the mailinglist after the meeting?
[19:39] <sbeattie> yeah, we can do that
[19:39] <cboltz> thanks
[19:39] <gua-uds> cboltz: make sure on launchpad you're a member of etherpad-members (i think it's called that)
[19:40] <gua-uds> cboltz: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
[19:41] <cboltz> joined now - but it seems to take some time until etherpad accepts me
[19:42] <cboltz> I'll try later again
[19:42] <sbeattie> cboltz: no worries. Are there apparmor issues you'd like to raise?
[19:42] <cboltz> maybe one thing
[19:42] <cboltz> profiles in the apparmor tarball vs. the apparmor-profiles repo
[19:43] <cboltz> to me, it looks like it will end up in duplicate and/or syncing work...
[19:43] <cboltz> wouldn't it be better to have as much profiles as possible in the apparmor tarball?
[19:44] <cboltz> I'm afraid that will end up in a maintenance hell
[19:44] <cboltz> because many packagers don't care too much about the profiles :-(
[19:44] <cboltz> The only thing I could think of is to have a "apparmor-profiles-devel" package
[19:45] <cboltz> and the packages build-require it and copy "their" profile from it
[19:45] <cboltz> but that isn't too different from having a big apparmor-profiles package...
[19:45] <cboltz> BTW: the apparmor-profiles repo contains various dummy profiles that say "this profile is maintained in $package"
[19:46] <cboltz> in other words: it's hard for me to get those profiles
[19:48] <cboltz> would the build-require method I mentioned work for ubuntu?
[19:48] <cboltz> like maintain the profiles in the apparmor-profiles repo
[19:48] <cboltz> and copy them to the packages from there?
[19:49] <cboltz> sounds promising :-)
[19:50] <cboltz> (however you do it)
[19:50]  * cboltz now has etherpad access
[19:52] <jjohansen> cboltz: did you have anything you wanted to raise about dev, not just packaging?
[19:53] <cboltz> I'd still like to have a "create_file_rule" function in the script to generate apparmor.vim
[19:54] <cboltz> which would make it easy to support "rw /path/to/file,"
[19:54] <cboltz> besides that, nothing at the moment
[19:54] <jtaylor> general question: aa-logprof tends to sort profiles in a certain way, is there a seperate tool to sort profiles for easier diff's?
[19:54] <jjohansen> jtaylor: not atm, but we should add that
[19:55] <cboltz> jtaylor: diff -u | sort  somehow works ;-)  (it ignores the +/-)
[19:55] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
[19:55] <jjohansen> jtaylor: aa-diff is a work item (wip)
[19:55] <jtaylor> that would be very useful
[19:55] <cboltz> what about a profile2audit.log converter? It would probably be quite easy to write, and we could re-use logprof for merging
[19:56] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
[19:56] <sbeattie> cboltz: "create_file_rule"> I'm not sure I understand what you want, but if you want to send me an email, I can work on it.
[19:56] <cboltz> sbeattie: will do
[19:57] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
[19:57] <jjohansen> cboltz: profile2audit.log? Can you expand
[19:57] <cboltz> jjohansen: something that converts a profile to an audit.log
[19:58] <cboltz> basically that's easy - the only exception is handling *
[19:58] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
[19:58] <cboltz> logprof could then read that (faked) audit.log
[19:58] <jjohansen> cboltz: hrmm, interesting how you handle globbing? Generate entries for every fs entry that matches?
[19:59] <jjohansen> it would be good for testing
[19:59] <cboltz> globbing is the interesting[tm] issue ;-)
[19:59] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!
[19:59] <jjohansen> yeah :)
[19:59] <cboltz> maybe we could even write something like /path/** to the faked audit.log
[19:59] <cboltz> and add a flag to mark it as glob
[19:59] <jjohansen> cboltz: we will add it as a work item
[20:00] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
[20:00] <cboltz> profile2audit.log would not only be useful for testing
[20:00] <cboltz> it would also be useful as merge tool
[20:01] <jjohansen> cboltz: hrmm, maybe
[20:01] <jjohansen> cboltz: thanks for coming
[22:54] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
[22:55] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
[22:56] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
[22:58] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
[22:59] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!
[23:00] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
[23:55] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
[23:56] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
[23:57] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
[23:58] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
[23:59] <udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!