/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/11/#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.txt

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jamespagemoring xranby14:54
xranbyjamespage: good morning14:54
xranbydi session start in 1h?14:54
xranbydo14:54
jamespagexranby, yep14:55
jamespagesee you then14:55
xranbygreat, yes see you as well have a good breakfast14:55
xranbygnu_andrew: welcome15:32
gnu_andrewxranby, thanks for the heads up :-)15:35
xranbygnu_andrew: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/   live notes will get scribbled down here, i think you need a launchpad account to see them15:37
xranbygnu_andrew here is working at Red Hat and are heavily involved with bringing security fixes into IcedTea from OpenJDK and have done countless IcedTea releases during the last years15:40
nthykierwelcome15:42
gnu_andrewnthykier, thanks15:46
gnu_andrewThe last date is Oct for OpenJDK 6 security releases15:46
nthykier2012?15:47
gnu_andrewi.e. after the 12 June and 16 Oct releases, there will be no more from Oracle15:47
gnu_andrewnthykier, yes 201215:47
nthykierugh15:47
gnu_andrewyeah this is why it's an issue, not just us being nasty :-)15:47
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Foundations | Transition the archive to Java 7 | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
xranbydoko: hi and welcome15:51
jamespageeveryone able to access the pad OK?15:54
nthykiernope - I guess my membership of that etherpad group needs to be approved first >.>15:56
xranbyok shall we start?15:58
jamespagenthykier, I just poked to see if that can be done now15:58
jamespageyes15:58
jamespageOK - lets make a start - any late attendees this end can catchup15:59
xranbyfor people listening in on audio try reconnect, the shoutcast server restarts every full hour16:00
nthykier(who is the speaker, btw? jamespage?)16:01
dokoyes16:01
jamespagehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Java7Default16:01
gnu_andrewno access either16:03
xranbyis Ubuntu collaborating with the Fedora team to shake down Java7 FTBFS bugs?16:04
nthykierA Lintian check for what exactly?16:06
nthykier(sorry the sound is not the best)16:07
jamespagenthykier, to check to see if the bytecode in a jar file is only compatible with Java 716:07
jamespagei.e. not backwards compatible16:07
dokonthykier, for the byte-code format used; to make sure that everything is built for e.g. 1.5 or 1.6, not 1.716:07
nthykiershould be trivial to do - there is some code for that already in javahelper16:07
jamespagenthykier, are you aware of plans to switch default-java in Debian this release?16:08
nthykierI am not aware of anyone doing it either, but having heard of the "security support" for Java6, I am considering to work on it16:09
gnu_andrewnthykier, jamespage: I suggest liasing with Fedora who've already switched in F17.  They may have patches you can share.16:09
dokousually Debian has a super set of the Fedora packages16:10
gnu_andrewI know.  But doing the common subset again is silly.16:10
* gnu_andrew remembers only Debian had GNU Classpath and not Fedora :-)16:11
jamespageagreed - and we will colloborate as much as possible to ensure work is not repeated16:11
gnu_andrewand yes obviously the ideal is the upstream package has it :-)16:12
xranby- #ARM ASM-interpreter and Thumb2 JIT ported to #OpenJDK 7u3 Hotspot 22, IcedTea 7 2.1.1 branch, by chrisphi, aph & adinn at Red Hat.16:14
jamespagegnu_andrew, agreed16:14
xranby- The only problem is that there  is no IcedTea 7 2.1.1 release planned by the icedtea team. Ubuntu are  currently providing a pre-release build for arm using this 2.1.1 branch.16:14
xranby- The good news: the assembler port and thumb2 jit work https://docs.google.com/a/gudinna.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0ArR4FJuzvXEsdDZkek5QcXd3c2ROMm1IajE1WmFwYkE&oid=4&zx=edub54x8oark16:14
xranby- all in all my, xranby,  experience is that the openjdk 7 using the arm port   hits no regression  in usage compared to the openjdk 6   port.. so its sane to let  distributions default to it and keep working on tck convergence16:14
gnu_andrewxranby, plan one :-)16:14
gnu_andrewxranby, seriously I'd like one but don't feel qualified to say whether we are ready for one or not16:14
xranbyi have asked andrew haley (aph)  Andrew Dinn and Chris Phillips on how much work there is left to get openjdk7  on arm to be feature complete and pass TCK16:16
xranby(14:03:59) aph_: xranby: I don't think that there are any really specific problems with the ARM port, except for the fact that hotspot is being constantly rewritten.16:16
xranby(14:04:16) aph_: xranby: apparently permgen is due to be deleted altogether16:16
xranby(15:50:09) ChrisPhi_:  I see zero  as having a lot of work to converge with jsr 292 / lambda and adopt some bytecode generation approaches, then we should be in maint mode.16:17
jamespagexranby, thats great news - and agreed that its sane to use in the distro due to no regression against openjdk6 port16:18
xranbythe best part that have happened during the past cycle is that the arm port have passed the tck for openjdk 616:18
xranbyand that is now actively maintained by 3+ people16:18
xranbyif we want more distributions to use the icedtea7 2.1.1 branch     then i can assign me to a workitem to do one release from that branch in this cycle16:20
xranbythis would create an official icedtea release with the included arm port16:20
dokoxranby, +116:20
xranbyfocus will be heavily switched to java 716:22
xranbyi think we will drop support on the many parralel icedtea6 branches16:22
xranbyideally we want icedtea7 2.1.1 branch to pass the tck before releasing it16:25
nthykieryeah16:25
xranbyare calxeda pleased with the openjdk performance?16:25
dokoxranby, it's the 2.1 branch, 2.1.3 would be fine for this as well16:25
xranbyNo16:26
jamespagexranby, have we got access to TCK for Java7 yet?16:26
jamespage:-(16:26
xranbyi do not have access to the tck16:26
nthykierDo we have a "clear" picture of how "far" the Java6 -> Java7 transition is (in terms of FTBFS issues)16:26
xranbyits unclear if i can get access to it since it require signing a nda16:26
xranbyi will work closely on QA with the readhat team16:26
xranbywho have access to the tck16:26
xranbyRed Hat16:27
jamespagexranby, great - I expect some people in Ubuntu will as well so hopefully we can help there as well16:27
dokonthykier, jamespage had used some user tags for these, but can't remember which ones ;)16:27
dokoin addition to this, we'll need some gcj patches from trunk for these archs which don't have an openjdk16:27
nthykierWhen will the "syncs calm down"?16:28
gnu_andrewhttps://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Java7_Package_Rebuild_Status is the Fedora effort if that helps16:28
jamespagenthykier, ~3weeks ish16:28
xranbygnu_andrew: thanks16:29
dokonthykier, they should already, but the merges need to be done16:29
gnu_andrewdoko, we don't even have 2.1.1 yet, steady on :-)16:29
dokoI didn't claim that16:29
jamespagenthykier, we should have a better view by the end of this month16:29
dokowhich maybe is a bit late for the debian freeze16:30
xranbywill ubuntu revert to debian armv4t+ for armel?16:30
nthykierjamespage: unfortunately "the end of this month" is a little too close to the Debian freezy16:30
dokoxranby, no16:30
nthykiers/freezy/freeze/16:30
jamespagenthykier, OK - the implication being we won;t be able to land fixes back into Debian in the short term?16:30
* jamespage is not familiar with the debian release process16:31
gnu_andrewtoday is the first I've heard of most of this.  It would be really helpful if we had more input on when/what releases are needed on distro-pkg-dev@openjdk.java.net16:31
nthykierit will be difficult at best16:31
jamespagenthykier, esp if they are to support something that is happening in Ubuntu that has no immediate impact in Debian I guess16:32
nthykieryeah16:32
jamespagegnu_andrew, what would make life easier?  a head up in advance on what we are doing for the next release as soon as WE know?16:32
nthykierunless there is a "strong" driving force (e.g. the debian security team) pushing for Java7, I think it will next to impossible to get it in after the freeze starts16:33
jamespagenthykier, OK - are they aware of the situation with OpenJDK6?16:33
dokonthykier, unfortunately I didn't see this in the past16:34
nthykierdon't know if they are16:34
* jamespage adds an action16:34
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gnu_andrewjamespage, yeah, and if you need/would prefer a release of some branch16:36
gnu_andrewdoko, nthykier: I doubt Debian wants to be doing their own security support for 6, especially given the limited resources they seem to have on it16:37
xranbyon testing: do we have openjdk tests running on top of the ubuntu   OHIO? test QA framework?16:37
xranbyalso .. can we provide preview releases using JuJu to get say openjdk8 running16:37
dokoOHIO?16:37
xranbydoko: whats the QA framework named that the QA team invented during the precise cycle?16:38
gnu_andrewjamespage, currently I'm mostly shooting in the dark when it comes to releases, which isn't good16:38
jamespagegnu_andrew, OK - I've actioned myself to talk to you about that...16:38
dokoxranby, the jtreg tests are run with every package upload, same for all third party java packages which provide a testsuite16:38
xranbyjamespage: ideally use juju to compile openjdk 8 from source and install it16:38
jamespagexranby, possible -= fancy giving it a try?  I can help out16:39
gnu_andrewjamespage, thanks, much appreciated!16:39
xranbyjamespage: yes i fancy giving it a shot16:39
xranbyto help bring the latest test releases into ubuntu fast16:39
xranbyof openjdk16:39
xranbyi will pass the question to gnu_andrew16:40
xranbyopebnjdk 8 have some interesting new features16:40
xranbylike jigsaw16:40
gnu_andrewxranby, that's another good point.  I'd like to see 8 moving out earlier so we don't have this issue again.16:40
gnu_andrewespecially as it will change much more than 7 did16:40
gnu_andrewand getting Debian/Ubuntu's feedback on Jigsaw before it is stable and unchangeable is very important16:42
gnu_andrew(Jigsaw is the module system for the JDK)16:42
xranbyJigsaw uses .deb!16:42
xranby(i think)16:42
nthykierAt least, Debian had a GSoC student on Jigsaw16:43
gnu_andrewxranby, I've honestly lost track.  dalibor was dabbling with .deb at one point but we really need to get our hands dirty and find out16:43
gnu_andrewbiggest problem at the moment is so much work to do and too few hands on deck to be honest16:43
xranbyi would like to say16:44
xranbyif someone want to help out with a thumb2 -> arm port16:44
xranbythen we can get a jit running on a raspberry pi16:44
xranbyit would be a quite good work for a computer sciense student16:45
xranbyanother qusetion16:45
xranbyquestion: is calxeda in the room?16:45
jamespageno16:45
xranbyany comments on openjdk performance on their servers?16:46
xranbyok16:46
xranbyis everything noted down in the pad16:46
xranbycheers16:46
xranbythank you for attending16:46
xranbylooking forward to a rapid openjdk adoption16:47
xranbyof new upstream openjdk releases16:47
xranbythank you as well at #uds for a nice session16:47
xranbyand thank you gnu_andrew for giving the Fedora Red Hat input on things!16:47
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gnu_andrewxranby, I wouldn't claim to represent Fedora.  I barely even use it ;-)  More upstream.16:50
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xranbygnu_andrew: ok, thank you for correcting me..16:50
gnu_andrewxranby, just don't want the responsibility as speaking for Fedora.  Nowhere near qualified :-)16:51
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xranbylast reminder: Use JamVM if you run into any issues with hotspot16:52
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gnu_andrewxranby, not cacao?16:54
xranbyand cacao16:54
xranbyof course16:54
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xranbyif you got a Raspberry PI use the cacao JIT: https://docs.google.com/a/gudinna.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0ArR4FJuzvXEsdDZkek5QcXd3c2ROMm1IajE1WmFwYkE&oid=3&zx=ipo09v1y3q5316:55
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Cloud & Server | working session result of apt-improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20760/servercloud-q-apt-improvements-working-session/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
gnu_andrewxranby, does http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/ work for you?  Logged in via my account but just taking me round in circles16:55
xranbygnu_andrew: yes it work for me16:56
xranbyi can paste you a summary16:56
xranbygnu_andrew: http://fpaste.org/jkjV/16:57
SpamapS ______  _____ __   __            _____  _______17:02
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SpamapSWho is there? Nobody?17:04
SpamapSPerfect! ^^17:05
dokoyou are watched ;p17:05
ansgardoko: But there is no video stream. How can you watch? :)17:06
SpamapSWe need Ben Howard and Robie Basak as well, I don't hear them17:07
smoserhello?17:07
DonKult_udssmoser: hello, where are you?17:08
smoseri left session. i ddin't actually know this got scheduled.17:08
smoserif you want to discuss, we can, i can come17:08
smoserbut i have no new information since wednesday morning.17:09
SpamapSbring utlemming and rbasak17:09
smoserk. i'll come down there.17:09
DonKult_udsi have… i didn't realized that another session was sheduled so started a discussion on dak -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-dak/2012/05/msg00006.html17:09
SpamapScan perhaps be moved to the next hour.. there are not many sessions for 11:00 - 11:5517:11
SpamapS       apt | 0.8.16~exp12ubuntu10 |       precise | source, amd64, armel, armhf, i386, powerpc17:16
SpamapSnot apt pinning17:20
SpamapShost pinning17:21
SpamapSWe're giving mirror admins the *option* to run the hash generation if they update aggressively.17:27
ansgarRequiring all mirrors to update seems not a good idea.  That might take quite a while.17:29
* mvo is now listening17:30
SpamapSYou can be atomic with 1 symlink mv atomicity and using hardlinks but nobody does that.17:32
SpamapSBetter to have the format intrinsically made to handle skew between fetch of different files.17:33
ansgarYou could also poulate a dists-new/ and then replace the old one.17:33
SpamapSansgar: right, thats the hardlink method (since storing two mirrors would be a bit wasteful)17:33
ansgarThough it wouldn't help with clients that have the old Release and then get the new Packages. Which I believe what you want.17:34
mvoI think if we can we should do both, right? improve the server side mirror script plus add code to apt to make it more robust17:34
mvoif its orthogonal we should do both, right?17:34
ansgar(I never get those hash mismatches btw. ;) )17:34
SpamapSansgar: We each do 100 apt-get updates a day during the dev cycle and we see them a lot.17:36
SpamapSRight, multiarch added more files to fetch17:37
smoserto re-iterate. we are interested in a solution.17:38
SpamapSBTW, somewhat related data point.. work is beginning this cycle of Ubuntu to combine main and universe into just 'main' (support will be communicated via seeds, not component)17:38
mvosorry if I missed stuff, but dosn't option B with the timestamp/version in the http path fixes the proxy issue not too?17:39
mvoi.e. it will be different for each Packages file, no?17:39
mvoor am I missing something here?17:39
SpamapSWe helped w/ the squid issue in Ubuntu btw by setting Expires to teh same value for Release and Packages*17:39
udsbotuuds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!17:39
smosermvo, it would fix the proxy issue, yes.17:39
mvothanks smoser, so what is the problem with option (b) then? I'm not fully sure that I understand the current discussion? note that I'm not favoring one particular one, I just try to understand the issue17:40
udsbotuuds-gb-f: 4 minutes left in this session!17:40
mvoand also why do we need to change ever client? it would be libapt doing it, no?17:41
ansgarmvo: debmirror and friends might need changes as well I assume. At least if they want to take advantage of it.17:41
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mvothanks, I think I understand17:41
SpamapSDo we have actions from this btw? Or are the actions from the main blueprint enough?17:42
mvook17:42
mvoyou could have a smart proxy that would ignore de.archive.ubuntu.com, archive.ubuntu.com etc as the hashsum is the only relevant piece17:42
mvothat is pretty clever17:42
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mvoansgar: right, the mirror stuff is client work too17:43
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SpamapSok, actions: move discussion forward in mailing list, and develop PoC17:44
smoseransgar, you're right . debmirror would need improvements to know about either format acutally.17:45
smoserbut with by-hash, i can update my mirror without the upstrem mirror to me implementing it.17:45
smoser(and keep the signed release)17:45
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SpamapSI added the work item for rbasak to http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-q-servercloud-q-apt-improvements17:45
mvoproof of concept for server? client? both?17:47
mvoapt-get / apt-ftparchive?17:47
smosermvo both.17:48
mvocool17:48
SpamapSI would think it has to be on both17:48
smoserserver is almost implemented in the ehterpad17:48
smoser(ie, its really easy!)17:48
smoseransgar, mvo so, just so everyone here is clear, myself, and rbasak are most interestd in getting a solution.17:49
* mvo looks17:49
mvoright, we are all on the same page I think :)17:49
mvowe want to fix it too17:49
smoserhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/976863/17:49
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Foundations | Get LiveFS building happening on Soyuz buildds | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20489/foundations-q-livefs-in-soyuz/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
mvoI think at least the apt-get part is pretty simple too for by-hash (well, for both)17:50
mvoa flag would be nice in the release file in both methods17:51
mvobut I guess that is hard for the mirrors that have not converted17:51
ansgarmvo: You need to check by downloading in any case.  You might have the new Release, but the mirror script might not mirror the new files.17:52
* mvo nods17:52
ansgarInstallers are also mentioned in Release. (A file with checksums actually.)17:54
ansgarWould the schemes store those as well in by-hash?17:54
* mvo gtg17:55
SpamapSits only the lists17:55
smoseransgar, i'm sorry, i didn't follow your question, i think/hope SpamapS did.17:56
SpamapSby-hash/2029447895 does not instill as much confidence as by-hash/affaf8faf5a5f8a9cc9c99e9b9b9ffa70900aff76f6f17:57
SpamapScrc3217:58
SpamapSftw17:58
SpamapS;)17:58
SpamapS ____________________________________17:59
SpamapS/ enough comedy, time to go to other \17:59
SpamapS\ sessions! Cheers                   /17:59
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DonKult_udsansgar: thanks for coming on such a short notice! Any preference yet? ;)18:02
smoserhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule is our release schdule18:03
smoseransgar, thank you.18:03
ansgarDonKult_uds: Hmm, not yet.  I'm not sure what would be better to use for the mirrors (and I don't have much experience with the mirror part).18:05
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=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Community | Ubuntu App Developer Site incremental improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20729/community-p-appdevelopers-site-incremental-improvements/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
yaili_hi19:05
yaili_hi david19:06
yaili_no worries :)19:06
dpmhttp://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20729/community-p-appdevelopers-site-incremental-improvements/19:11
yaili_I'd be happy to give feedback19:42
yaili_yes19:42
yaili_yeah, go ahead19:42
yaili_"Consultancy" :D19:42
yaili_makes sense, I think the idea in the first phase was to just get people going, so the focus on get started was more important19:50
yaili_now that people might know the site, makes sense to make make news more prominent19:50
yaili_I think it will need a bit of UX19:50
yaili_I will add a note to the web team that would be good for a UX to look at it19:51
yaili_ok, I'll talk to them on Monday, I'll present both options: a) we do it, b) someone helps us and we're feedback/help19:52
yaili_sure19:52
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yaili_thanks o/19:59
udsbotuuds-gb-f: This session has ended.20:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju upstart integration | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20511/servercloud-q-juju-upstart-integration/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
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SpamapSThis is my dream session.. Don't take it away from me! Upstart and Juju in perfect harmony... ;)22:06
SpamapSI printed out materials you can find them under your chairs...22:06
jamespage?22:07
SpamapSYes sort of22:07
SpamapSI did not file this one22:07
SpamapSThe idea is to make sure that its really easy to use an upstart job in your charm22:08
SpamapSYeah, and I think we skipped this topic22:08
SpamapSIts not really a 1 hour conversation...22:08
SpamapSJust a "anybody have ideas on how to make it easy and/or encourage it"22:09
SpamapSUpstart jobs are so simple..22:09
SpamapSIMO upstart job is the obvious way to start a service deployed by a charm.22:10
SpamapSNor am I. :)22:10
SpamapSHere's what I think.. we talked about "flag bearing charms" that implement all best practices. We can pick 1 or 2 that do it right, and make sure they're known as such.22:11
SpamapS+1's all around?22:11
jamespage+122:12
SpamapSThe start/stop hooks are horribly misunderstood22:12
SpamapSI think you just got it wrong ;)22:12
SpamapSEven w/ an upstart job, you need to have the action required to start/stop it in start/stop hooks22:13
SpamapSstart/stop can be called w/o rebooting the machine22:13
SpamapSNo templates needed.. most jobs are 3 or 4 lines22:14
SpamapSjames hunt.. I have a question on a potential feature22:14
jamespageso good examples and some extra information as comments in the hooks to help people understand what does what22:15
SpamapSlxc containers cannot be run without network abstraction because of upstart's private netlink socket ...22:15
SpamapScan we create some way for upstart to detect that it is running in a container that does not have network namespaced, and listen somewhere else?22:16
SpamapS(this is unrelated to the blueprint topic)22:16
SpamapSno, /sbin/init fails22:17
SpamapSyes but only if your container has the network namespaced22:18
SpamapSif you let the container inherit the host's networking, /sbin/init cannot listen on the netlink socket.22:18
SpamapSAH22:18
SpamapSok, because we wanted to use LXC to contain juju units without namespacing the network, but we can't22:19
SpamapSOk, thought it was upstart's problem. Ok, thats all from me. :)22:20
* SpamapS un-hijacks the session22:20
SpamapSFor ~charmers .. grand-ballroom-a would be a good spot to go to see how ubuntu is unblocking their review/contributor processes22:21
* SpamapS goes there now22:21
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udsbotuuds-gb-f: This session has ended.22:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: QA | Ubuntu Automation Test Harness | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20522/qa-q-ubuntu-automation-test-harness/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
SpamapSo/23:20
xranby1i am having issues connecting to the icecast audio server23:24
SpamapSsqlite does table locking, so multi-user will just be single threaded23:32
SpamapSsounds good :)23:35
SpamapS1 year23:43
SpamapS8.04 == 2008 + 5 == 201323:43
udsbotuuds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!23:54
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