[00:21] <len-dt> Using polkit is almost too easy...
[00:24] <len-dt> With regard to changing runlevel as a user. I was able to to set up telinit to run from user space... so I can use runlevels to control what performance level I am running at.
[00:24] <len-dt> This is probably not a good idea as telinit has more function than just changing runlevel.
[00:27] <len-dt> However, it would be easy to write an application who's only job is to take user input and allow only three or four actions... changing runlevels to one of rl2-rl5.
[00:28] <len-dt> And throw away anything else... even a bash script could do that.
[00:33] <ailo> len-dt: I read your post on the mail list before, but haven't had the time to devote to US today. Did you read about Ulatencyd on another post?
[00:34] <len-dt> I have. It is hard to know what is useful for audio. What would be really helpful would be test cases.
[00:34] <len-dt> Both test cases that have lots of stress and those that are more "realistic".
[00:35] <len-dt> That would help us to find out is any of these things are really helping or needed.
[12:25] <scott-work> good morning everyone
[13:17] <len-dt> scott-work, been a while since I've seen that name here ;-)
[13:23] <knome> yeah, but he's not really on :<
[13:35] <len-dt> knome, he probably has lots of catch up to do.
[14:00] <scott-work> sorry, i'm back again
[14:01] <scott-work> i really would like to talk about blueprints this week and get them resolved and to kate (release manager) by the end of the week
[14:01] <scott-work> len-dt: would you like to head up an "OTB improvements" blueprint?
[14:01] <scott-work> i shoudl be posting to the mailnig list with a list of things i think we need to get done along with some others might might consider
[14:01] <scott-work> of course, i want people's suggestions and input as well
[14:43] <ailo> scott-work: Me and Len have been putting some work on system tuning. Mostly len, so far. And we've set up pages on the wiki for documenting both what we have now, what is possible, and lastly, what we would like to have
[14:43] <ailo> I think we should also go more deeply with package selection. Making more detailed analysis of work flows
[14:44] <ailo> Probably not a lot missing, but it would be good to document that throuroughly as well
[14:45] <ailo> scott-work: The wiki pages are still mostly empty. The three last items on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamResources
[14:46] <scott-work> ailo: that's good to hear and i agree about package selection as well
[14:47] <scott-work> ailo: shnatsel had some interesting ideas as well
[14:51] <ailo> scott-work: I think len-dt and me will go ahead and explore those things, and hopefully that will result in some good analysis of what might or might not be useful for tuning the system for better performance
[14:51] <scott-work> that would be out-f'ing-standing :)
[14:51] <ailo> I think we'll probably need a -controls application in the end. Would you agree len-dt?
[14:51] <scott-work> ailo: i was going to suggest that as well
[14:52] <scott-work> i've not been a fan of the -controls idea for a while, but it has mainly because no one seemed to be able to clearly define its purpose anymore
[14:53] <scott-work> but it sounds like we are clearly defining some purposes now
[14:53] <ailo> As len-dt suggested in hit post, I think, many things can not be done in userland. You set it, and reboot, or at least restart your session. Also, you'll want to be able to toggle things separately, since some settings only apply to some machines. A -controls application could also inform the user how each setting can help them. 
[14:58] <ailo> Well, time to do some laps in the park :P
[16:12] <ailo> len-dt: I think the first thing I want to do is to finish working on kernel related docs and set up kernel builds for testing on my PPA. Get back to you when I have something up for testin/reading
[16:13] <scott-work> it looks like the kernel time will most likely assume responsiblity of the -lowlatency kernel if they can collapse some of the other kernels they are supported
[16:13] <scott-work> well, some are going to be collapsed (i.e. combined) and others are going to be dropped
[16:13] <ailo> It's probably not going to make much of an impact for anyones performance, I don't think, tweaking a few kernel options, but who knows. And I just want to learn all about it to be sure
[16:14] <ailo> scott-work: I think that's great. I do hope we can have some serious input into what configs the kernel should have though
[16:14] <scott-work> ailo: i would hope so...and i think we have time for that as well still
[16:14] <scott-work> they need to get he blueprints done this week as well, then go through the work of minimizing their supported kernels before they address ours
[16:15] <ailo> scott-work: Let's have a meeting before then?
[16:15] <scott-work> absolutely!
[16:16] <scott-work> i was hoping this weekend actually so we can finalize the blueprints and some other ideas/tasks
[16:16]  * micahg waves to scott-work
[16:16] <scott-work> ailo: len-dt:  i don't know if you know about my blog, it has several noted items from UDS including things related to studio
[16:16] <ailo> scott-work: Haven't read it for a while. What was the link again? ;P
[16:17] <scott-work> micahg: hi!  i reversed my position, after we work through bluepritns i want to help with syncing and FTBFS as soon as possible to get the exposure
[16:17]  * scott-work is sorry for being wishy-washy and this subject micahg, but has his mind made up very firmly now
[16:17] <scott-work> ailo: http://dullass.blogspot.com/
[16:21] <scott-work> s/and this subject/on this subject
[16:23] <scott-work> heh, micahg left already :/
[16:23] <knome> hah:)
[16:23] <knome> you want to fail to build from source?
[16:23] <scott-work> knome: i want to learn
[16:23] <scott-work> ;)
[16:23] <knome> ;)
[16:24] <scott-work> ailo and len-dt :  feel free to leave comments in the blog, don't be shy :P
[16:24] <knome> scott-work, so, where's the blog articles for days 3-5 ?
[16:25] <scott-work> i'm still working on them :P  i'm ADHD and sometimes have trouble keeping my attention on certain things
[16:25] <scott-work> i have notes from all of it and i will be finishing them up in the next two days
[16:26] <ailo> scott-work: You only have one letter combination? I have all of them
[16:26] <knome> scott-work, diagnosed ADHD, or non-literallt ADHD?
[16:27] <knome> *non-literally
[16:34] <scott-work> knome: literally, i have been diagnosed and i am taking adderall
[16:35] <scott-work> i still get a little flaky by getting distracted and hyper at times (i'm kinda feeling that now)
[16:35] <knome> scott-work, okay, good to know :)
[16:35] <scott-work> but i can sustain much better concentration in the short term though
[16:35] <scott-work> before i HAD to also follow all the conversatiosn that others are having around me as well as my own conversation
[16:36] <knome> well i do that too...
[18:53] <scott-work> micahg: i see you are back in channel
[18:53] <micahg> well, about to go off for a few hours :)
[19:35] <astraljava> scott-work: You? Hyper?!
[19:35] <scott-work> hehe, sometimes very badly
[19:36] <scott-work> astraljava: sometimes is because very, very obvious because i can talk really, really fast at times and it might seem that i don't breath between paragraph-like sentences
[19:37] <astraljava> I will have to travel to Texas to witness that. :D
[19:40] <scott-work> we'd be glad to have you stay at the house if you did
[19:42] <astraljava> We have a few employees in the States, so I may take you up on that offer. :D
[19:44] <scott-work> that would be super cool :)
[19:44] <astraljava> Indeed it would. I haven't been further into your continent than... Atlanta. :)
[19:45] <astraljava> One of them lives and works in Colorado. That's at least where I'd wanna go. It's not TOO far to hop over to your place from there. :)
[19:46] <astraljava> Fortunately our company is very pro-travelling.
[20:18] <len-dt> ailo, controls or setup or config or whatever. Ya. any performance mode thing needs a config app so that the user can make it work for their particular use. Things like wireless or not. Mysql or not... are things atht come to mind.
[20:21] <astraljava> Not even just wireless, but networking overall.
[20:22] <len-dt> scott-work, ailo while a lot of things are out of userland, polkit is easy to use to get around that. The easiest and most secure method would be to use runlevels. That way up to 4 different setups can be defined. I have been able to make strong changes without either booting or relogging in.
[20:26] <len-dt> astraljava, exactly. 
[20:27] <astraljava> I was reminded again at work today how vulnerable even modern unices are to networking problems.
[20:28] <astraljava> UI freezes totally, even on supposedly well-working multitasking OS.
[20:28] <astraljava> ...on a dual-core machine.
[20:28] <knome> ..with memory built from stardust?
[20:28] <len-dt> astraljava, the thing with networking is things like qmidinet and qmidicontrol (I think I got it right) and for that matter lyricue (which also uses mysql :-P
[20:29] <astraljava> knome: Have you been inhaling something you shouldn't, again?
[20:29] <astraljava> len-dt: gah!
[20:30] <astraljava> But okay, I get the point.
[20:30] <knome> not admitting anything.
[20:30] <len-dt> astraljava, breathing you mean like city air?
[20:30] <astraljava> Well, he lives considerably closer to downtown than I do.
[20:31] <knome> though you have that dust coming in all the time
[20:31] <knome> i live considerable closer to a (small) forest too
[20:31] <knome> s/e/y
[20:31] <len-dt> Where we used to live downtown had the cleaner air and the wind used to blow the crap up the valley to the farmland.
[20:34] <astraljava> Yeah I guess that's true. There are many more buses going just underneath my balcony than anywhere near his apartment.
[20:34] <knome> so it's probably just too clean air i'm breathing... or the methane :|
[20:34] <astraljava> Right, that's it.
[20:35] <astraljava> No wonder you married your wife, it's because of her profession. :D
[20:35] <knome> ;]
[20:35] <len-dt> astraljava, it is unlikey that someone would use lyricue along with audio applications, but quite possible that a musician would have lyricue and audio apps on the same machine. lyricue being a video app that displays video and lyrics.
[20:35] <knome> yeah, good to have backup if i faint of my own smell
[20:36] <astraljava> len-dt: Right, I can understand that.
[20:36] <astraljava> But then there are all those other runlevels.
[20:36] <astraljava> Like you said already.
[20:37] <len-dt> Yup, mysql seems to be runlevel friendly, NetMan is not. But it does handle being shutoff ok.
[20:38] <len-dt> And NM could be shut off (and turned on) by a runlevel friendly upstart script.
[20:44] <len-dt> astraljava, I would like to do as much as I can that is upstart friendly (or driven) as that seems to be the future of things. Any of the upstart *.conf can have a *.override file that takes it's place without deleting the original... very handy. Also the override file does nothing if there is no conf file to match... also handy as it means if we (or the user) tries to shut off something not installed there is no problem.
[20:49] <astraljava> len-dt: Sounds good indeed.
[21:00] <scott-work> i wonder how regular ubuntu devs would view us considering runlevels
[21:01] <len-dt> scott-work, should be ok. I think RL2 should be the same as vanilla ubuntu and there should always be a path back to that.
[21:02] <scott-work> len-dt: that's good to know. i now very little about runleves so i worry about such things
[21:02] <scott-work> len-dt: do you think you would be up to leading a blueprint for OTB performance improvements?
[21:03] <len-dt> scott-work, right now rl 3,4 and 5 are the same as rl2. That is not used.
[21:03] <len-dt> scott-work, OTB?
[21:03] <scott-work> out of the box
[21:03] <scott-work> or Out of The Box :P
[21:04] <len-dt> scott-work, I can try. You mean how the setup is at install or live DVD?
[21:04] <scott-work> well, kinda
[21:04] <scott-work> there isn't too much pressure to it, to be honest
[21:05] <scott-work> do you know much about blueprints?
[21:05] <scott-work> len-dt: ^^^
[21:05] <len-dt> scott-work, I get the idea of what they are for... but not much on the formal language of them.
[21:06] <scott-work> formal language is minor aspect, don't worry about that
[21:06] <scott-work> so, to show our intended work for the cycle we make blueprints and the work items within the blueprints
[21:06] <scott-work> this one might have only a few generalized work items like "explore possible ways to improve OOTB experience" and "implement what we can"
[21:06] <len-dt> So I can come up with a doc, which you will vet and post?
[21:07] <scott-work> or might be more details about which options we might try and such
[21:07] <scott-work> yeah, i would then vet it then it needs to go up the chain to the release manager who would approve it and make it part of our formal "ubuntu studio for q cycle blueprint", which acts like a header blueprint
[21:08] <scott-work> you don't get in trouble if not everything is completed or if things don't work out and there is nothing we can do to improve the OOTB experience
[21:08] <scott-work> but i can't keep up with every blueprint and make sure progress is going on, especially when i'm not very familiar with some of the things you are talking about
[21:09] <len-dt> scott-work, ok. There are two streams of thought with this, one that with a modern system there is performance to spare anyway and the other which is we can do much better with tweaks.
[21:09] <scott-work> len-dt: well, if we can reasonably and safely make tweaks and yield appreciable improvement, i say we do it
[21:09] <scott-work> or at least consider it
[21:10] <len-dt> scott-work, I know I can make magrinal machines better (like my netbook for example), but they are less noticable on a good machine.
[21:10] <len-dt> s/magrinal/marginal/
[21:10] <scott-work> len-dt: that might be a good work item - to verify which improvements yield good results on which machines
[21:10] <scott-work> btw, https://help.launchpad.net/Blueprint for those who want to learn more about blueprints
[21:11] <len-dt> scott-work, thanks.
[21:11] <scott-work> so, we could say one work item is to brainstorm which tweaks might work
[21:11] <scott-work> another to test them
[21:11] <scott-work> another to make a decision which to explore for reals
[21:11] <scott-work> another to implement one (or several)
[21:11] <scott-work> anotehr to validate the improvements
[21:12] <scott-work> (oh, i suppose one might be to make a baseline reading earlier)
[21:12] <len-dt> Yes, scott-work I have already found a tweak on one of the linux audio/music pages that does not work as stated in ubuntu.
[21:12] <scott-work> i think generally each work item is suppose to be a day or three of worth of work
[21:13] <ailo> To get to the bottow with all of the system configs, we need much more time than that.
[21:14] <len-dt> scott-work, right now I am trying to gather info on what tweaks others have tried and to see if they work for me.
[21:14] <scott-work> ailo:  more time than...?
[21:14] <ailo> For each work item
[21:14] <scott-work> oh, right...i understand :)
[21:14] <len-dt> It looks like I will need to at the very least get more memory just for testing.
[21:14] <scott-work> the documentation will be the same ailo 
[21:15] <scott-work> user documentation, developer documentation, testing docuementation, all that stuff
[21:15] <ailo> len-dt: Remember that I have 5 machines or more, so we could just as well do a team effort on the testing. 
[21:15] <scott-work> len-dt: we set the goals/work items for the blueprint, if you feel that we will only get through testing and making a suggestion for next cycle then that is okay
[21:16] <scott-work> len-dt: we should just set a reasonable goal for Quantal (including some buffer probably) and try to get that done
[21:16] <len-dt> scott-work, there are some things that have already been proven to work for some people, I would like to include those. I will be using some of them in my machine anyway.
[21:16] <astraljava> I get your point, BUT IT'S THE RELEASE AFTER LTS!! :D
[21:17] <scott-work> astraljava: LOL, yeah i know, many people want to go crazy!  but i don't want to scare len away :P
[21:18] <scott-work> len-dt: that's fine, and keep in mind that i'll help you with developing the work items if you want
[21:18] <len-dt> astraljava, while this may have been LTS, I think we are really part way into the vision of where we want to go at this time.
[21:18] <astraljava> scott-work: You'll scare him away by putting on restraints. :D
[21:18] <len-dt> astraljava, scott-work :-)
[21:18] <astraljava> len-dt: No, you misunderstood me. I fully support you! :)
[21:18] <astraljava> Let's rock! :D
[21:19] <len-dt> astraljava, just laughing along with you
[21:19] <astraljava> Good. :)
[21:20] <scott-work> hehe, good point astraljava  :)
[21:20] <scott-work> i took it the other way :P
[21:21] <scott-work> len-dt: but seriously, the work items are really another minor issue, but it would be very helpful to have you (who understands these items more than i) driving this blueprint
[21:21] <scott-work> or ailo could do it, or you both could
[21:21] <scott-work> i just wanted someone else but me (who doesn't have time to learn all the stuff you already are working on) to drive the blueprint
[21:22] <scott-work> i can still make the blueprint and with your help fill int he work items
[21:22] <len-dt> scott-work, astraljava I am thinking that even though my workflow app is not very polished, I will use it to set up rl based performance modes. The gui is throw away (or not) but the mode switching is pretty basic. The config for it can be more of the same or use the US controls framework if someone feels more comfortable working with that.
[21:23] <scott-work> oh, one reason i haven't been on much lately is not only because i was at UDS but also because my old laptop died
[21:23] <len-dt> I will try to come up with an overall document in the next few days.
[21:23] <scott-work> i am unsure what i am going to set up at the house
[21:23] <scott-work> len-dt: don't stress about getting final form or even doing a blueprint at this point, we have until early next week to get it done
[21:23] <len-dt> scott-work, netbooks are cheap... and do surprisingly well.
[21:24] <scott-work> we can brainstorm about what things we want to explore and then start parsing into steps and then get that into the blueprint
[21:24] <scott-work> there will also be other blueprints, like some of the documentation and live-dvd fixes/improvements
[21:24] <len-dt> anyway, I am off for a bit... it's about 2:30 time to go get kids.
[21:24] <scott-work> i am leaving for home as well
[21:25] <ailo> I'm fine with len-dt doing the blueprints. I'm still on documenting kernel configs, and will probably continue with that and the wiki for the rest of the week. I will however think about what we could bring up at the next meeting, when we discuss the next cycle
[21:27] <ailo> If we are to make good use of each others machines for testing, I believe documentation will be essential, so that would be the best place to start
[21:32] <astraljava> I was just recently shown a link to some test automation, but haven't had a chance to check it out yet.
[21:33] <ailo> astraljava: Standard type of testing? Give us a link if you find it
[21:33] <ailo> I mean standard, like what you would do for regular Ubuntu, not multimedia
[21:35] <astraljava> ailo: I'll look into it and see how it could be utilized.
[21:35] <astraljava> But not now, I have to sleep.
[21:36] <ailo> sweat sheep
[21:36] <ailo> sweet*
[21:37] <astraljava> No I don't do sheep, sweaty or not. That's jussi's territory.
[21:39] <ailo> Have a good restful night of sleep then
[21:44] <knome> nighty astraljava 
[21:59] <len-dt> Who is good to talk to about security matters? I want to use pkexec to run telinit. Should I do so directly? As far as I know telinit can tell upstart to reread it's configuration (telinit q) or restart (telinit u) Which while problematical (upstart doesn't handle this well) doesn't seem to be a security problem
[22:01] <len-dt> telinit 0 or 6 the user already can do (reboot or halt). that leaves telinit s or S which goes to single user mode.
[22:03] <len-dt> hmm, single user as root I think, sounds bad, but in ubuntu anyone can get there with a reboot to recovery mode.
[22:07] <len-dt> outside of ubuntu, if the user needs to login even in recovery mode, then this will be true in RL1 as well.
[22:07] <len-dt> Any holes in my thinking?
[22:30] <ailo> single user as root sounds bad to me
[22:31] <len-dt> I think it is safer than running telinit from a sh script which filters the command line variables. I am not sure there are not combinations that might tell the script to do something nasty.
[22:32] <len-dt> ailo, Ya, it sounds bad. Ubuntu's fault that, most distros require a password to get into a console in runlevel 1.
[22:33] <len-dt> Those that use sudo with no root password allow user login others require the root password.
[22:36] <ailo> But even so, you don't log in as root for user tasks. Only to change the system or doing some monitoring you are unable to do as user
[22:37] <ailo> But I guess you are just exhausting all options
[22:38] <ailo> I don't know much about run levels and init scripts, so all I can offer there is to help doing some testing later on, if it becomes a valid option to try
[22:40] <len-dt> With ubuntu, if you have physical access... you are root!
[22:40] <len-dt> All you have to do is reboot to rescue mode.
[22:41] <len-dt> ailo, this is one thing I always thought was odd about ubuntu.
[22:41] <len-dt> I could never have done that with Slackware.
[22:41] <ailo> You mean it's not very secure in that sense?
[22:42] <ailo> If you have physical access, unless disks are encrypted, you can always put the disks into another machine
[22:42] <len-dt> Any system that someone has physical access to can be entered anyway. Boot from your own CD.
[22:43] <len-dt> Ya, encryption would be the only way around that.
[22:43] <ailo> I wonder if encryption works if you try booting into rescue mode, not as the user? I think it does
[22:44] <len-dt> RL 1 is pretty secure even having root access. The network is shut down so no external shells are available. I think it shuts down serial access too.
[22:44] <ailo> Well, don't really know. Only that I've had problems with some software trying to use encrypted drives belonging to my own user
[22:45] <ailo> Pretty radical thing to do, in order to get slightly better performance
[22:46] <len-dt> encrypted partitions still work because the partitions are only accessible with the key... root or not.
[22:47] <len-dt> However your point is valid. It is best to wrote a binary program that only takes input to change through RL 2 to 5.
[22:47] <len-dt> ailo, I was just feeling lazy ;-)
[22:48] <len-dt> ailo, it has been a long time since I last coded c ... I will probably have to look up each thing I do :P
[22:49] <ailo> What bugs me is that on probably most machines, you might only need one or two configs diffing from the -generic kernel in order to get full blown low latency performance (also having PAM privileges set up), but then you have this and that hardware configuration which does not work properly. 
[22:50] <ailo> It's gotta be the fault of the kernel in the end
[22:50] <ailo> And all it contains
[22:50] <ailo> As we talked about, drivers and what else
[22:51] <len-dt> ailo, ya my netbook is a perfect case... wireless has to be removed and then... solid as a rock.
[22:51] <len-dt> ailo, well till memory runs out.
[22:53] <ailo> This is why I feel that the standard setup is the best default setup, where there may be a few configuration options that could never hurt and thus could also be added by default, but leaving the rest for trouble-shooting more or less
[22:53] <len-dt> ailo, I would in some ways like to double my memory and kill swap. shnatsel says that is a bad idea. I guess swap is used for hibernation
[22:54] <ailo> And for those options that should be tweakable, because they either do not do anything useful for most people, or may even do the opposite, an application would be best
[22:54] <ailo> hibernation.. now often does that work? I've had a problem with that on a lot of machines
[22:55] <ailo> But should probably not be disablel :P
[22:55] <shnatsel> len-dt: http://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that
[22:55] <ailo> disabled*
[22:56] <len-dt> ailo, RL2 should always be left default anyway. shnatsel Ya I read it.
[22:57] <shnatsel> len-dt: I think you need some filesystem caches anyway
[22:57] <len-dt> shnatsel, there seems (even in the comments for that article) to be some disagreement on his aproach.
[22:57] <len-dt> caches in swap?
[22:57] <shnatsel> len-dt: yeah I agree it needs further research
[22:57] <shnatsel> len-dt: there are no caches in swap
[22:58] <shnatsel> len-dt: linux is not stupid
[22:58] <len-dt> I thought not.
[22:58] <shnatsel> len-dt: so either use zcache or swap to zram, and the latter is preferable because it's used only when you're really running out of ram if you've decreased swappiness
[22:59] <len-dt> shnatsel, with the use of zram, which I assume looks like swap to the machine, what happens then to hibernate?
[23:00] <ailo> len-dt: About those tweakable options. Since they probably don't do a lot to most people, "performance mode" does not seem appropriate to me. More like "troubleshooting mode". I wouldn't use that term, but just add the options to a audio-settings application, which might as well be a completely rewritten ubuntustudio-controls, and have that application easily accesible to the user
[23:00] <shnatsel> len-dt: I haven't tested that myself, but it's stored in RAM and it can't be swapped into itself, so the worst case is as much data as fits into zramswap being compressed and then swapped on the disk
[23:00] <len-dt> ailo,  the name doesn't matter to me.
[23:01] <shnatsel> len-dt: which is in fact faster than usual hibernation because it basically means lzop-compressing data before writing it to disk
[23:01] <shnatsel> len-dt: I'm negotiating replacing lzop with lz4 btw
[23:02] <shnatsel> lz4 is exactly the same except it uncompresses much faster
[23:02] <len-dt> shnatsel, I'm more worried about some of the data being mistakenly stored in zram instead of swap and there for vanishing when power goes.
[23:03] <shnatsel> len-dt: I believe those parts of memory are never swapped into itself
[23:04] <shnatsel> len-dt: otherwise it'd make no sense
[23:04] <len-dt> ailo, quite definitely I (personally) want to be able to switch because I want to be able to use wireless when not doing audio too.
[23:05] <len-dt> shnatsel, ok, personally I never use hibernation anyways, I always shutdown.
[23:05] <shnatsel> len-dt: I've popularized swapping to zram with http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/increased-performance-in-linux-with.html which triggered adding my scripts to repos of several distros. I've received several bug reports, but nobody complained about hibernation.
[23:05] <shnatsel> len-dt: neither do I
[23:06] <len-dt> So my questions are more for if I am helping someone out.
[23:08] <len-dt> I do want to try zram though. shnatsel and I think I will (for personal interest more than anything) try running swap-less but adding more memory. It seems to me it is not too hard turning swap on and off... well it used to be easy ;-)
[23:08] <shnatsel> len-dt: sudo swapoff -a
[23:08] <shnatsel> len-dt: sudo swapoff
[23:08] <shnatsel> one of them
[23:09] <len-dt> shnatsel, Ya, that command is still there. 
[23:11] <len-dt> shnatsel, would swapoff kill zram as well?
[23:11] <shnatsel> len-dt: yes
[23:12] <shnatsel> len-dt: and it's not easy to bring it back :P
[23:12] <len-dt> shnatsel, so I would want to do swapoff _special_
[23:12] <len-dt> That is specify the partition.
[23:12] <shnatsel> len-dt: prediction: you'll get very annoyed by swapless setup because of out-of-memory kills with apps losing data.
[23:13] <shnatsel> len-dt: swapoff --help or man swapoff
[23:13] <len-dt> shnatsel, thats what I'm looking at.
[23:14] <shnatsel> len-dt: to get a taste of out-of-memory kills, press Ctrl+Alt+PrintScreen+F
[23:14] <shnatsel> len-dt: it triggers one :)
[23:14] <len-dt> shnatsel, I agree it would be bad for normal use, but If I don't have enough memory for my audio stuff to all fit in memory in the first place I think I would rather know that before I hit the record button.
[23:15] <len-dt> In other words, swap off would be a specific use only 
[23:15] <shnatsel> len-dt: write a wrapper script checking the amout of memory available on app startup. I've got one for ensuring all my memory modules are in place and connected.
[23:15] <shnatsel> it runs on boot though
[23:18] <ailo> len-dt: Yes, but the switch is only helpful to a few people, so it won't be interesting to most people to use. Anyway, implementation is step 2
[23:19] <ailo> End of this day for me too. I'll be around tomorrow again
[23:19] <len-dt> ailo, GN
[23:20] <len-dt> shnatsel, I'm going to play with zram... and maybe zcache.
[23:21] <shnatsel> len-dt: zcache is not easy to set up
[23:22] <shnatsel> len-dt: to get the code I mean
[23:22] <len-dt> Ok, I'm looking through your blog just now... I'll get to that.
[23:23] <len-dt> Hard it may be, but something of use to me I think.
[23:36] <len-dt> shnatsel, The first thing for me though, is 1Gig of ram is really too small. Doing a witch hunt to see what modules/daemons/apps I can kill to get more ram space is probably counter productive. I think US wants to be an "up to date" OS. To do that I think I need to update my machines. I need at least 2G ram, but will try to end up with 4G on my desktop which is the main audio machine anyway.
[23:37] <len-dt> I think zcache is a good idea as it reserves space for cache.
[23:37] <shnatsel> len-dt: I've been hitting swapping deaths with 2Gb, but with zramswap all is fine now
[23:37] <shnatsel> len-dt: and Firefox doesn't eat up gigabytes of memory anymore
[23:38] <shnatsel> in fact it uses only 100mb for gmail while chrome uses 200mb
[23:38] <len-dt> How well does disk read/write work without cache space?
[23:38] <shnatsel> and I'm comfortable with 1Gb on my laptop too
[23:38] <shnatsel> len-dt: no idea
[23:39] <len-dt> shnatsel, so you would recommend setting up zram first.
[23:40] <len-dt> And let cache take care of itself.
[23:40] <shnatsel> len-dt: yes
[23:40] <shnatsel> len-dt: and I'm not very fond of zcache personally, though I haven't really looked into it
[23:42] <len-dt> shnatsel, is it worth using zram with the LZ1 alog. on an atom based machine?
[23:42] <shnatsel> len-dt: lzo, yes, I think so
[23:42] <shnatsel> len-dt: try and see
[23:42] <len-dt> Ok, what split would I use for 1G
[23:43] <shnatsel> len-dt: just install my zramswap-enabler
[23:43] <shnatsel> len-dt: and see if it suits you
[23:44] <len-dt> shnatsel, is there anything there not compatible with 12.04?
[23:44] <shnatsel> len-dt: already resolved :)
[23:48] <len-dt> Hmm, it depends on the generic kernel.
[23:49] <shnatsel> oh, I haven't added that kernel flavour to dependencies, sorry
[23:49] <shnatsel> what's the package name?
[23:49] <len-dt> zramswap-enabler
[23:49] <shnatsel> no, for that kernel of yours
[23:49] <len-dt> Or do you mean owr kernel.
[23:50] <len-dt> I can't look just now... I'm DL the generic kernel...
[23:55] <len-dt> Our package is linux-lowlatency-pae
[23:55] <len-dt> I don't know what the amd64 package is though.