=== nanotube is now known as rg [06:58] morning [07:00] Hello. [07:01] * genii-around makes a fresh pot of coffee [07:01] good idea [08:57] hai. [08:57] uoh [09:39] where are all the u-studio guys? :) [09:40] heh, no idea [10:03] we should see if the proposed roadmap items are doable [10:04] eg. i don't think "new panel plug in (applet)" is in the scope for xubuntu developers [10:04] or, i don't know, but if the team is the same, it's not doable [10:08] haven't looked at the roadmap lately [10:13] especially since there are already several "monitor" plugins, more or less unmaintained [10:13] mmh [10:16] guys, is there a package that contains the default xfterm4 color scheme? Xubuntu's new scheme infers with almost every application I'm trying to use. (like mc, aptitude, but even nano) [10:18] you can edit /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/Terminal/terminalrc and drop ColorPalette* [10:18] (well, all color options actually) [10:19] ty [10:19] john-: we're reviewing our term-colors for the next release, would be great if you would participate (at least by giving your feedback or by testing) [10:19] sure thing, I saw that point in the roadmap plan on the wiki === yofel_ is now known as yofel [10:19] ah ok [10:19] just wanted to be sure to mention it [10:20] there aren't that many users around here who use lots of term-apps [10:20] i use irssi and vim, those two look ok [10:20] (and man obviously :) ) [10:20] :) [10:20] john-: i read you wanna help out with xfce? [10:21] to me, terminal is a selling point in Linux, or even on a Mac. Okay, Windows got cmd, and powershell, but I still can't get myself to learn all the powershell applets, syntax, etc. [10:21] yepp. I checked out the Xubuntu bugtracker first, but I figured it out if you import all the Debian packages at start anyway, helping XFCE would be better [10:21] right, what areas were you thinking of? [10:22] uhm sorting out the bugs (bugtracker), helping with bugs (bugfixing, see if I can fix some of them, propose patches that fix the problem, and won't introduce new ones) [10:22] sounds good [10:22] nothing *too* big at first, but something that would help the project [10:22] xfce can definitely use your help [10:22] and yeah, you're right, it's probably best to work with upstream [10:23] +1 [10:23] although we could also use helping hands :) [10:23] our maintenance load will increase with the next release (we'll have to maintain the gtk2-indicators ourselves) [10:23] xubuntu benefits from fixing bugs in xfce, and if we didn't benefit from *all* fixed bugs, i'm still happy [10:23] :) [10:23] just tell me which area you need the help and I'll take a look [10:23] mr_pouit: do you think it's realistic that we fix power-man to use a gtk2-indicator? [10:24] as far as I saw, even sorting out the stupid reports would help a lot :)) [10:24] heh [10:24] true [10:24] john-, http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ [10:24] ochosi: nick touched a bit xfpm for 4.10, so maybe he cleaned it up (so then it might be feasible) [10:24] john-, \o/ [10:24] err, mr_pouit ^ :D [10:25] on it knome , ty! [10:25] john-, there's other things too if you have more "appetite" for them, but otoh, that definitely is a good starting point :) [10:26] madnick, ? [10:33] "a way to save a xfce4 Panel config for using it when we add a new user" [10:33] isn't that just backuping the panel preferences and copying to new user? [10:33] or using skel [10:52] mr_pouit: i dunno how far he really cleaned it up, i just remember him complaining about it a lot [10:52] well, doesn't complaining a lot eventually make the code clean itself? [10:54] bbl [10:54] It's like cursing, it takes away the pain. :) [10:58] ochosi went complaining? oh my :) [11:08] knome: ? [11:09] madnick, you still up to updating the lightdm and plymouth themes? :) [11:09] yes [11:09] ok, so what about maintaining the lightdm gtk-greeter? [11:10] the old one? [11:10] original* [11:10] yeah, many people still use it [11:11] i don't think it needs much updating, just keeping it in one piece :P [11:11] is the current maintainer giving up? [11:11] ask mr_pouit for details :) [11:12] oh he is the maintainer [12:46] Guys, just wanted to let you know that xfce4-panel optionally uses some features from libwnck 2.31.0. [12:47] if you look at the second screenshot at http://www.webupd8.org/2012/05/install-xfce-410-in-xubuntu-1204.html the workspace switcher has a distorted aspect ratio. [12:48] the new libwnck version fixes it (the panel has to be rebuilt in order to make use of it) [13:11] andrzejr: oh yes, i noticed that before (i mean the problem, not the solution) [13:11] andrzejr: thanks for the heads-up! [13:13] mr_pouit: did you notice you were downgraded to a "xubuntu contributor" by webupd8? :D [13:14] =) [13:21] ahoi bluesabre [13:22] hey, hows it going? [13:22] good good, a bit busy, but generally fine [13:22] on your end? [13:22] pretty slow, but not too bad [13:22] good [13:23] did you get some feedback on blackbird? [13:24] no, nothing so far :] [13:25] just looking at your xfconf-query code [13:25] I think it looks pretty good. Just a bit too dark for me (been spoiled by bluebird) [13:25] guess calling the shell is rather costly [13:25] ah, you tried it? [13:25] nice [13:25] For a little while [13:26] it still has quite a few quirks, mostly treeviews etc [13:26] but yeah, i wanted to try something really dark [13:26] I've been working on the vala port for the kso. m8t pointed me in a few directions for getting the valas with xfconf in c/vala [13:26] *values [13:26] right, does it look manageable? [13:27] yeah, should have something functional this week [13:27] cool [13:27] i guess some of the plugins could also serve as examples for querying xfconf [13:27] yeah [13:28] have you tried adding buttons like notifyd does? [13:29] I haven't. What kind of functionality would we use buttons for? Go to keyboard shortcuts? [13:31] yeah, i'd add an edit-button to each header that takes you directly to the corresponding settings-window [13:31] That's a good idea [13:31] because the shortcuts are split up in different dialogs [13:32] so users would have to dig to find a specific setting [13:32] true [13:32] I'll add that in. [13:32] theoretically we could also let them assign keys from the overlay, but that's kinda duplicating... [13:33] that might be more difficult. The overlay should probably only show when holding the launcher/modifier key, right? [13:33] yes, that was the original plan [13:40] ochosi: yeah, I know, but I didn't feel pedantic enough to tell them (a developer is a contributor after all :p) [13:44] mr_pouit: say, do you have a clue how we could call a programm when the super-key is held down for e.g. 2 seconds minimum? [13:44] usually it's either you press the shortcut, or you don't [13:44] ochosi: I was thinking of having the program start as a minimal mode with a timer, then if the key is still held down, show the interface. [13:45] (assuming you're talking about the kso) [13:45] yup, i am :) [13:45] though there might be a better way :D [13:45] yeah, i was wondering about that [13:46] whether there is something in X or xfce we can use instead of running our own little timer [13:46] and that would be good, because I can detect press and release events, but I have no idea how to tell if something is already pressed when the program starts [13:46] just imagine someone hits the super-key twice exactly in the right interval for the timer by accident :p [13:47] good point [13:47] well, you could poll for the shortcut more often than twice (beginning and end) [13:47] yeah [13:47] i have no clue whether that would create much overhead with people using the super key a lot [13:48] still not sure how to tell button states. I don't think its doable in python-gi, but probably with vala or c [13:48] yeah, that's why i thought i'd start asking around [13:56] you can't do that with xfce4-settings afaik (it's only here for kbd shortcuts, so it only detects keypresses) [13:57] you'll have to do like xfce4-volumed I guess, session-autostart and grab the key youself [13:57] +r [14:04] ah right [14:04] volumed is a good place to look [14:05] (although jannis didn't really praise the code last time we talked about that) [14:06] (yeah, simply close your eyes when you see the list of keys grabbed) [14:06] ok [14:06] e.g. it grabs XF86AudioRaiseVolume plus all possible modifiers, by hand: http://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-volumed/tree/src/xvd_keys.c#n84 [14:09] uargh [14:09] did you _have to_ link directly to the ugliest section? :} [14:12] haha [14:59] :/ [14:59] the "brainstorming" passed along me and i didnt even noticed it [14:59] can we really, really, really have schudeled meetings please? [15:02] did you have any ideas you would've wanted to put in the roadmap? [15:05] GridCube, feel free to add your ideas to the brainstorming now, but do it ASAP [15:05] GridCube, i'm going to run votes at the end of this week (or start of next) [15:06] GridCube, and i've already called for assignees too, so people are probably looking already [15:06] yes i know thats why i said it [15:06] :( [15:07] i wanted to propose use of arandr and cheese as pre-installed programs [15:07] please do it now – technically, the roadmap has been open for submissions since i created that page, so longer than it was officially on [15:08] can i add it as a late entry box and leave it there to be considered with a maybe? [15:08] nah, just add it to the regular table [15:08] +1 [15:08] i know is that the mail got lost [15:08] we haven't started "considering" yet [15:08] that's what we reserved this week for [15:09] * knome is investigating how the launchpad polls work [15:09] ah, polls [15:09] good idea [15:09] was wondering how we'd do it [15:09] hehe [15:09] yeah, you know, that's why i set the test poll today for ~sp :P [15:09] so we can see how that looks like [15:10] knome: stuff like "re-think panels", would you put that as a separate work-item? i didn't yet because it's something we _should_ do every cycle anyway... [15:10] no, that doesn't really need a blueprint [15:10] you got to remember the items on the list are blueprints, which can contain a lot of work items and bugs that are attached [15:11] so it doesn't make sense to add every little thing to the list, just add those little things as work items [15:11] yeah [15:11] i saw you haven't merged the "appearance-improvements" yet [15:11] no, not yet [15:11] sorry, i also didn't get round to it [15:11] done [15:11] GridCube, thanks :) [15:12] so... [15:12] who's going to volunteer as an assignee for the application blueprints? [15:12] pff :) [15:13] * ochosi hides [15:13] the monitor management item (as well as the apt-offline item) is merely a decision-thing [15:13] no need for huge comparisons, or even assignees [15:14] you mean whether we throw one of the monitor-plugins into the panel by default? [15:14] what's "Add optimum partitioning option to install options" ? [15:14] no, i mean seeding arandr/grandr [15:14] i've no idea [15:14] i'm thinking it might mean that somebody wants the installation to calculate something [15:14] or just propose 10GB / and rest as /home, if HDD space >40GB [15:14] yeah, but that's completely out of our hands anyway [15:14] or sth... [15:15] well, i suppose we could affect that, but i'm not sure how useful that is [15:15] dvd support is an interesting proposal [15:15] for majority of people, installing to one partition is completely fine, even makes sense [15:15] aren't we seeding *something* with the package already? [15:15] and libdvdcss... [15:16] are we? [15:16] i'm not sure [15:16] i thought there was going to be something like the flashplugin-nonfree-installer [15:16] if we are, then we can delete that item [15:16] so libdvdcss would be downloaded automatically [15:16] (currently you need to run a bash script from /etc/docs or sth) [15:16] anyway, i think that we should make it easier to install the restricted extras via ubiquity [15:16] currently people can only decide to install mp3 codecs [15:17] yeah. i'm wondering why the mp3 -codecs appear there, but not the -extras [15:17] mm-hmm [15:17] instead they should be able to install restricted extras [15:17] that's what most want anyway [15:17] yup, that makes sense [15:17] question is: do we have anyone who can take on this task [15:17] astraljava maybe? [15:17] well, astraljava worked with ubiquity the last cycle [15:17] and i'm sure we'd get help from stgraber most probably anyway [15:18] wow, lubuntu-software center is really light [15:18] ~1mb [15:19] mmh, btw, i realized one day [15:19] i want to keep synaptic, because i *really* prefer it to any other package manager i've seen [15:19] but i don't use it pretty much at all anyway, i'm just using apt-get [15:19] (and apt-cache) [15:20] i'm not sure keeping synaptic is a consistent choice [15:20] i mean with the general direction of the distro [15:20] no, probably not [15:20] personally i think it's overly complicated for newbies [15:20] and i use it only sometimes [15:20] imo it's really simple... [15:20] but it's not hard for me to install it [15:20] just type your search, then install [15:20] but... [15:20] ochosi: knome: I'm sorry, what exactly? I haven't looked at the blueprints at all, yet. [15:21] astraljava, hehe, well, please do look at them this week, and set yourself as assignee to a few ;) [15:21] astraljava: just the "random" idea of throwing an option to install xubuntu-restricted-extras into ubiquity-installer [15:21] astraljava, we were discussing the option to offer installing -restricted-extras instead of just the mp3 codecs [15:21] astraljava, -> Analyze and optimize boot times [15:22] astraljava, i'm waiting for you to pick that up [15:22] :) [15:22] ochosi: Ahh... yes, I should be able to take that. I need to work on the ubiquity tasks anyway. [15:22] +1 for lubuntu-software-center [15:22] knome: take a look at lubuntu-software center please. it's not too bad. if we get a chance to work on it with them, it might be ok instead of USC [15:22] never used it before you guys just mentioned it, but its nice [15:22] knome: Well, sure, I'm interested about that as well. [15:23] astraljava, yeah, me too, but i'm not setting me as an assignee before somebody with technical skills is on it. [15:24] bluesabre: it does seem to have some flaws, like not really showing all results... [15:24] ochosi, the preferences -dialog is a bit confusing, with no descriptions [15:24] ochosi, and is that a custom widget?? [15:25] knome: which one? [15:25] ochosi, the on/off [15:25] ochosi, in preferences [15:25] knome: no, that's the gtk-switch. it's not themed correctly with greybird as it is in 12.04, patch has been in git for a while already [15:25] ok [15:25] it's a new gtk3 widget [15:26] astraljava, well i just removed you from the "app sets" ;) [15:26] I noticed. Why? [15:26] well, i'm not sure if we will run that. [15:26] but yeah, feel free to be the assignee [15:26] Yep. [15:26] just be ready for the situation where you have less work than expected [15:26] OMG!! [15:26] why? [15:26] i mean why wouldn't we want the app-sets? [15:27] ochosi, well, what's the status of the a11y set? [15:27] ochosi: yeah, it also has some issues with hovering certain results [15:27] ochosi, orca is not working? we don't have anybody to test the a11y? [15:28] yeah, but "pure" xfce is a valid app-set as well and good enough to test whether we can get a11y together [15:28] ochosi, there are a few things that make me uncertain if we are ready to ship the a11y set [15:28] maybe not yet, but i think it's ok to test app sets one by one [15:28] well yeah, but i'm not sure if i want to introduce yet an another screen to the installer just for the xfce-only set [15:29] i mean, i'm afraid many people will select that [15:29] *especially* if we say it's only for advanced users [15:29] people then think "YAAAAAHHH i'm up for it!" [15:29] then they join #xubuntu because the system is borked [15:29] and the xubuntu default theme isn't installed [15:29] and everything looks bad [15:29] well, how prominent we make that choice is totally up to us [15:30] knome, you are very familiar with the 'advanced' users it seems [15:30] :D [15:30] bluesabre, well, i'm familiar with *people* [15:30] that's how people are [15:30] true [15:30] "ooh, that's for experts only - if i use that, i'm better than the others" [15:31] and with this kind of options, they are completely in problems [15:31] is installing "xfce-only" possible with alternative already? [15:31] or should we enable it there only? [15:31] ooh, it just came to me, the thunar bug should be fixed on 12.10 because of 4.10 [15:32] and thats why we are going to keep having it on all the LTS for over 2 years :D [15:32] mm-hmm. [15:32] generally, i tend to tell people the normal xubuntu releases are quite stable too, so installing them shouldn't be any problem [15:32] GridCube: what thunar-bug? [15:32] ochosi, slow startup? [15:33] yes [15:33] is there any other bugs worth mentioning? [15:33] that are anoying and always happening? [15:33] well, any bugs [15:34] just that one and the plugin indicator not respawining properly one [15:34] those happens all the time [15:34] plugin indicator? :) [15:34] yes, the one that has the conectivity/sound/mail icons [15:35] if you close it, it will restart, but only with the network icon [15:35] no sound or mail [15:35] ah [15:35] i was referring to thunar bugs ;) [15:35] GridCube: close == remove from panel? [15:35] ochosi: yes [15:36] GridCube: if yes, then that's expected. sound and mail don't have systray fallbacks [15:36] GridCube: so if you remove the indicator plugin, the indicators aren't there anymore (sounds logical, doesn't it? :) ) [15:36] welp then the plugin indicator should come back for no reason [15:36] why should something come back when you remove it? [15:37] i dont know [15:37] it does [15:37] it's only nm-applet that "returns" [15:37] because it also has a systray-mode [15:37] well yes [15:37] so if you remove the indicator, it respawns as a systray [15:37] end of story [15:37] well, thats wrong, [15:37] because its not called "nm-applet", in the panle [15:37] why would a fallback mode be wrong? [15:38] is called Plugin Indicator [15:38] oh man... [15:38] ochosi, the fallback mode sounds wrong [15:38] and people want their soundcontrol back [15:38] the indicator-plugin currently holds _all_ indicators you have installed on your system [15:38] it's a single plugin [15:38] and they dont have it [15:38] knome: why? [15:38] well, is not working as it should [15:39] ochosi, i mean, if you have javascript, you see the enhanced page -> if you disable, you have the regular page -> if you re-enable, you still have regular ?? [15:39] ochosi, i mean, re-enabling the indicator area should have a "hook" or system call or anything that tells the apps that it is available again [15:40] knome: i have no clue what you're talking about cause it works exactly like that (and like you said you would expect it should work) here [15:40] knome: indicators > disable > systray > enable > indicators [15:41] ochosi, do you realize that doesn't work for GridCube then? ;) [15:41] ochosi: some programs open indicators on the plugin indicator, most others dont, so in other to close the program you do right clic>close, but on the plugin indicator that means killing the plugin indicator, you do that unnoticing,then the Plugin indicator respawns, but theres only a network icon on it, no sound no mail, how is that correct? [15:41] or expected? [15:41] i think is wrong and annoying [15:42] GridCube: well there are the two concepts of systray and indicators. if you only want one of them, remove the other one from the panel [15:42] knome: i don't think you understood GridCube's problem ;) [15:43] ochosi, that's possible too ;) [15:43] hehe [15:43] GridCube: i agree that they're inconsistent, but there's not much we can do about that (other than patch all panel-plugins or not use indicators) [15:43] ok [15:43] we decided to have the indicators for good reasons though [15:44] yes and i like them [15:44] but they need to be consistent [15:44] there are upstream (xfce) plans to rework that plugin [15:44] but i think that'll take more time [15:44] if it closes it: 1) should not come back, or 2) everything should come bacl [15:45] you haven't understood 1) it seems [15:45] it's not the indicator-plugin that comes back. it's nm-applet [15:45] that's why it comes back "incomplete" [15:45] all your indicators are gone when you remove the plugin [15:45] ok, i gotta go [15:45] seeya [15:45] hehe [15:45] see you... [15:46] yes, but you dont seem to understand that it doesnt come back as nm-applet, it comes back as indicator plugin [15:46] :) good luck ochosi [15:46] wb micahg :) [15:47] micahg, have any insight on apt-offline? [15:51] knome: hi, and no [15:51] ok :) [16:44] FTR, I haven't looked at any of the Xubuntu blueprints yet [17:08] micahg, time to do that then! :) [17:09] knome: not this week probably [17:09] micahg, we're going to approve at the end of week or beginning of next, so... [17:10] anyway, i'm off for a few hours at least. see you later! [17:10] knome: meh, I have to catch up on work this week [17:29] knome: I noticed that "Add DVD support" is on the blueprint as a possibility, as well as possibly moving to a different media player. Wouldn't VLC solve both problems? [17:33] knome: nvm, I misread that it is "add dvd support to xubuntu-restricted-extras" [19:45] bluesabre, vlc is pretty much ruled out anyway, as it uses Qt [19:46] That's true. Audience seems pretty promising (from the limited testing I've done of it) [19:49] http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/?repo=Oneiric&arch=i386&package=vlc&have=xubuntu-desktop I don't even remember installing all that. [19:50] wowza [19:55] It's about 35M all in all. [19:58] that's bad, that's not the worst thing [22:15] hi everyone