[00:36] any way to rm ./ - [00:43] rm `find ./ -type l` [00:49] find . -type l -exec rm -f {} \; === pancro is now known as pancro_gone === angela-android is now known as nothingspecial [06:03] [Jono Bacon] Accomplishing An Awesome App Developer Platform - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/05/15/accomplishing-an-awesome-app-developer-platform/ [06:37] Morning everyone [07:00] morning [07:02] /25 [07:02] bah! [07:02] (morning) [07:04] popey: /script load go.pl [07:05] Morning all [07:23] AlanBell: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/15/punjab_ubuntu_free_laptops_students/ 125,000 free laptops being given out with a further 300,000 planned for 2013 [07:31] Morning [07:32] hey daubers [07:32] how are you today [07:35] morning from the head office of Libertus Solutions ;-) [07:36] Knightwise: Almost awake! [07:37] TOShrun: Got interwebs now? [07:37] Knightwise: How goes things? [07:38] doing well, just landed a ubuntu legend for tomorrows interview on knightwise.com :) [07:38] Cool :) [07:40] I don't know why, when somebody is described as a "Legend", my brain always see's it as "Leg End" and makes me think of somebody who's less than useful :) [07:40] daubers: We haz fast interwebs... ~75Mbps/4Mbps [07:40] DJones: i beg to differ :p and so does popey [07:40] Heh [07:45] morning all [07:45] TOShrun: FTTC? [07:46] Infinity I believe [07:46] hello all [07:46] aloha [07:47] Unity has just decided to reset my monitor displays to 640x480. And I can't find the launcher - jeez I really am getting fed up with it. [07:47] Morning all [07:48] great - unity --replace hasn't fixed it. better log out and back in again. *&%(Y&*&&*^*(Y [07:49] its not unity --replace [07:49] it's unity --reset [07:50] AlanBell: tell him [07:50] 08:49:54 < popey> its not unity --replace [07:50] 08:49:57 < popey> it's unity --reset [07:50] 08:50:00 < popey> AlanBell: tell him [07:50] and it's unlikely it was unity which changed the resolution [07:50] gah - it shouldn't happen [07:50] possibly compiz, but also unlikely [07:50] Something broke. [07:50] what sequence of events led to that? [07:51] plugging external monitor in? [07:51] I moved a window from one screen to the other [07:51] what video card? [07:51] internal icore3 [07:51] laptop model [07:56] got your ~/.xsession-errors and/or /var/log/Xorg.0* handy? [07:57] hang on a mo. [07:59] I have popey. Where would you like them? [08:01] pastebin or something? [08:01] OK hang on. [08:02] * TOShrun installs pastebinit [08:04] Xorg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/988534/ [08:04] xsession http://paste.ubuntu.com/988535/ [08:06] yep, it's definitely messed up [08:06] lol [08:26] wha's the shortcut to lock the screen in the newest ubuntu? [08:28] Can I completely separate two monitors in Unity - so that when I move around my 4 workspaces on one screen it doesn't move around on the other monitor at the same time? [08:28] oimon: is it not ctrl+alt+L? [08:28] TOShrun: yes, what GPU do you have? [08:28] Azelphur, yes, it is thanks [08:28] just a intel internal Core i3 jobby [08:29] (took a long time to happen, but it did in the end) [08:29] on my laptop [08:29] TOShrun: ah, not sure how to do it on Intel, you can do it in xorg.conf if there are no GUI options, you are looking for separate X screens though [08:29] separate X screens are totally separate, you can't even drag windows between them [08:30] separate workspaces like you want are (would be) part of compiz [08:31] ali1234: lies? compiz doesn't support xinerama workspaces [08:31] I tried what seemed like the right sounding setting yesterday but it didn't seem to have any effect. [08:31] xinerama is irrelevant [08:31] workspaces are provided by the window manager [08:31] compiz can't do what you want, but it is because compiz sucks [08:31] Good morning, everyone! :D [08:32] ali1234: afaik it needs input redirection :P [08:32] gnome shell is a little bit closer like you want... you only get workspaces on the primary monitor and all the others effectively have 1 workspace that never changes [08:32] ali1234: rofl that sounds terrible [08:32] yes, it is [08:32] however, it is closer to what some people want than what compiz does [08:32] hmm. ok thanks for the input. Guess it is a no then. [08:32] TOShrun: only advice I have for you is separate X screens, I use separate X screens myself so I know it's the answer to your question, just dunno how to do it on anything but nvidia :P [08:33] ok [08:33] ty [08:33] seperate X screens is the worst of the lot. as mentioned, you cannot move windowws between monitors if you do that [08:33] ^ that + a lot of applications are buggy [08:33] again, workspace management has nothing to do with X, it is a window manager function [08:34] if window manager does not provide it the way you want, blame window manager :/ [08:34] oh yea, you could find a window manager that supports it properly [08:34] yeah [08:34] I may be in need of one myself sometime soon [08:34] i don't know of any that actually do it [08:35] gnome shell is probably the closest [08:35] kwin probably does it, it does everything [08:37] superuser.com says There are a number of tiling WMs which will do this (Awesome3, scrotwm, Xmonad, probably dwm and wmii), and you can configure a *box (Open/Flux) to do this. Not aware of a way to do it in KDE or GNOME, at least not easily. [08:37] o.O [08:37] also keyboard short cut to lock screen is probably click desktop then alt l o c k s c r e e n [08:38] yeah but tiling WM are horrible to use [08:38] my keyboards have lock screen function keys [08:39] would be nifty if the key on G19 to turn off the backlight and screen also turned off the main monitors [08:40] * Azelphur would be happy if his G19 didn't continually randomly turn itself off [08:40] * Azelphur stabs logitech [08:40] then again, that also could be potentially really annoying since i like to turn that stuff off when watching a movie or something [08:40] i thought you were going to go maplins and get a new PSU? [08:40] I did [08:40] didn't fix it :< [08:40] well there isn't anything in it that could fail like that [08:41] I'll have to video it for you so you can see exactly what happens, then maybe you'll have an idea \o/ [08:41] "it just turns off" what else is there to know? [08:42] sometimes it boot loops too [08:42] the logitech logo will appear on the screen, and then it'll turn off, rinse and repeat [08:42] i think it's your computer [08:42] :< [08:42] it doesn't it have a history of killing USB devices? [08:43] nope [08:43] My g13 works fine so does my piano [08:43] what about that arduino? [08:43] I'm semi-convinced that was just a software issue [08:43] well there is simply nothing on the circuit board that can fail like that [08:44] fun [08:44] test it while not plugged in to computer [08:44] you will probably need to add a serial port to do that [08:44] bit difficult to do that, it only tends to fail while I'm using it and it usually takes a couple days of uptime to go weird [08:45] or test it on another computer [08:46] ali1234: http://forums.logitech.com/t5/G-Series-Gaming-Keyboards/g19-restarts-itself/m-p/432636/highlight/true#M10771 is sorta interesting [08:46] I tried turning off EHCI, but I dunno if there's a ubuntu equiv to sideshow devices [08:47] sideshow devices means those little LCD on the outside of the laptop [08:47] ah [08:47] second page is interesting, they blame a phone [08:47] I should test that [08:47] i have never seen any problems and i have uptimes of several weeks usually [08:48] do you usually have a mobile phone right next to your keyboard [08:48] yes, three actually [08:48] haha [08:48] maybe not that then :) [08:48] pah i've just smashed the screen on mine [08:48] MooDoo: ooops :x [08:48] if you count the ones not switched on there's 5 [08:48] also a n800 [08:49] Azelphur: yup pain in the neck [08:50] who knows though, they may have done different circuit board revs [08:50] or you might be further from the base station than me (thus your phone is yelling and mine is not) [08:51] I may well be pretty far from a base station [08:51] putting phone on keyboard, sending yourself a text and then watching it crash seems pretty conclusive to me [08:51] I'll test it tomorrow \o/ [08:51] I've had it crash a couple times when I put my phone on the keyboard, I was sorta tempted to say it was vibration, but maybe it's interference [08:52] well that's easy to test [08:54] * AlanBell has the same exact laptop as TOShrun and doesn't have unity hating me so much with multimonitor in 12.04 [08:55] But AlanBell has beaten it into submission. I'm a newbie [08:56] maybe it wore me down into compliance [08:56] you have to go with the flow [08:56] Ah - maybe. I am so used to gnome2 just working and not breaking. Guess I was spoiled. Progress eh? === cking_ is now known as cking [08:57] yup [08:58] yeah, GNOME 2 was 100% reliable for all of the last 7 years [08:58] no, wait, the other one [08:58] the worst part is that it only got reliable about 6 months before it was canned [08:59] thus 6.5 years of hard work just discarded [08:59] unity is about ready for people to start testing it [08:59] Yegods, Eclipse p2 is depressingly slow [08:59] 10.10 was great. It just worked. Always. [09:00] 10.10 was probably best release yet [09:02] pretty much since 11.04 i've been running exclusively +1 [09:02] because it's less broken than the releases [09:02] which i suppose means they are at least improving [09:04] ali1234: I wouldn't say that 6.5 years of work was discarded. One would hope that a lot of the stable code, etc, was reused. [09:05] well the stable code that lives on in gnome 3 likely was around in gnome 1 [09:05] so it's a lot older than 7 years or w/e [09:05] I would say that gnome 3 was exactly what was needed because I think that gnome 2 is hideously out of date and out of touch with what users want [09:06] nope. you are describing gnome 3 [09:06] ali1234 the user experience guru [09:06] people only cry out for gnome 2 because they've just got their desktops the way they want them and don't want to change [09:08] why is that a problem? [09:08] do i come to your house and rearrange your furniture? [09:08] put the TV behind the couch because "that's more efficient" [09:08] and then accuse you of just not wanting to change? [09:08] you do if I say "hey, I want the latest everything, and I'm happy to accept something off the shelf and have ikea do the work" [09:10] it's alright, with all of the contributions he's putting into MATE we'll be fine. [09:10] oh wait. [09:11] I also think that some people confuse workflow efficiency with tinkering efficiency. Sure, there are a lot of hidden options which are a bitch to get to, but when you're configured, you need to focus on how well you work, and gnome 3 and unity do that very well [09:11] hey, i thought ubuntu was supposed to be for human beings, not developers? [09:11] Ah - tell that to Dell (Sputnik) [09:12] i'll tell you one thing it is definitely not for: people who persistently complain without doing any of the work. [09:12] oooh [09:12] uh, sorry [09:12] but if you want to make extra work by reinventing the whell, you can be damn sure i won't help you [09:12] you'll just snipe [09:12] we've established that [09:12] yes, i will [09:13] we have also established that it won't change a thing [09:13] so everyone's happy I guess [09:13] huzzah! [09:13] * SuperMatt gets out the champagne [09:14] but hey, we already established that i don't like change, so i guess i should just carry on? [09:15] ali1234: "keep calm and carry on" :) [09:15] i think you should get involved with developing a system you like, rather than complaining about those you don't [09:15] why? i don't have time for developing desktops. why do you think i am using ubuntu? [09:15] it's because i am lazy [09:16] well you've noticed that ubuntu isn't following your personal direction [09:16] yeah [09:16] so ... I don't see what you can do if you're not willing to get involved? [09:16] those who do the work get to make the decisions, that's how this stuff works [09:16] if i wasn't so lazy i would switch to something else [09:17] I do like Unity, I just find it lacking somewhere, and I can't work out what.. I am really trying this time but when I installed Cinnamon I felt that it worked better from the outset [09:17] I do feel the stability issues I've been having since Natty, and still somewhat into Precise have put me off A Lot [09:17] I'm quite enjoying unity. I know it has a bug or two (or many) but it's still a very well rounded application. Now is the time to start using it, forsure [09:18] i've explained this many times. your getting annoyed with my lack of willingness to help is the natural end result of making an OS targetted at "humans" - humans are lazy and don't want to do any work and just complain. so this whole conversation is in fact indicative of ubuntu's "success" [09:20] My biggest issue/annoyanceat themo is the second app bar on secondary screen [09:20] If I could remove that I would be happier [09:20] you can [09:20] of course you can complain all you want, but that doesn't mean anyone has to listen to you [09:21] unity today is less horrifically broken than shell is [09:21] i think, as you seem to have a vision, that you would be happier if you tried to implement it [09:21] oh, last time I asked it was only available to hide, havent checked recently [09:21] and i've been deploying ubuntu with unity rather than shell, since i don't have the time to run studies on my users to see if they want shell instead [09:21] diplo: super -> display -> "Launcher Placement" [09:21] directhex: i absolutely agree [09:21] directhex, I totally agree with that, it got so bad for me on 11.04 I gave up and used a different DE for 6-8 months [09:21] ta [09:22] there's still plenty not to like in unity, but it's at least usable [09:22] popey, it sort of worked :) [09:22] And more stable [09:23] yeah, that it's not a tiling wm :( [09:23] as a random example, shell absolutely does not function with multi-monitors stacked vertically [09:23] especially with non-uniform sizes [09:23] It's gone to my right ( Secondary screen ) [09:23] thats my main dual-screen use-case [09:23] my monitor is behind my laptop [09:23] so i put one above the other [09:23] popey, used shell? [09:23] no, thats verboten ;) [09:24] really? i wouldn't have thought it would make any difference at all, given that shell just ignores any monitor after the first [09:24] good morning everyone. [09:24] popey: where are the plenary videos from uds ? [09:24] youtube [09:24] now that alt-tab works I am ok with unity [09:24] ali1234, no, it doesn't. shell users are the majority in the office, and multi-monitor is very common. it almost works, except with vertical stacking [09:24] http://www.youtube.com/user/ubuntudevelopers [09:24] czajkowski: they cut the good bits from Daviey's plenary [09:24] really? so you can have multiple workspaces on the secondary monitors now? [09:24] popey: thanks [09:25] no, the workspace behaviour is braindead. iirc it only supports something like mirroring, or one fixed workspace on the second display [09:25] not sure, i don't use multi monitor [09:26] unity annoyances are mostly that dash is laughably slow compared to Do [09:26] * popey goes back to bed with ubuflu [09:26] popey: nn get well [09:27] and a few apps confuse the hell out of the thing that tracks window parentage. bamf, is it? [09:27] Should that not be UDSflu, rather than UBUflu [09:27] popey: is that the UDS version of fresher's flu? [09:29] yes [09:29] SuperMatt, yes [09:29] gotcha [09:29] * popey chuckles at bamf [09:29] bad a$$ mo fo.. [09:29] BAMF! [09:30] popey, nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamf [09:31] its the bamf application matching framework [09:31] yeah yeah, that's the _sensible_ answer [09:31] i have no idea what popey is talking about, ignore him [09:32] /ignore popey [09:32] he is delirious from ubuflu [09:32] its the ubuflu [09:32] bed [09:32] nn [09:32] nn [09:33] pish, popey is always delerious :P [09:33] at any rate, it poops itself over unison2.27.57-gtk [09:33] and anything java related [09:33] java has always confused window managers [09:34] yeah, but it especially confuses bamf [09:34] chances are it'll be fine if you set the variable which makes java use the old X driver, not the new one [09:34] the old one worked with everything [09:34] nope [09:34] java doesn't export any information that bamf can use to match windows -> desktop files, java needs to be fixed [09:34] also anything that is statically compiled tends to not work properly [09:36] is there any realistic prospect of java being fixed? [09:36] lol [09:36] having two binaries for one program, or two .desktop files for one program, really confuses it [09:37] AlanBell, nobody's "fixed" java for decades :p [09:37] now that it has been given the dementors kiss by oracle [09:37] and no, there is zero chance of java being fixed unless one of the bamf developers does it [09:37] you should just fix it instead of complaining about it [09:38] i like java being broken. [09:38] would be nice if there were some sort of good bounty website for this kind of stuff [09:38] only if the bounties are actually worth the effort involved [09:39] $50 bounty for massive invasive changes to java that upstream will never accept = no thanks [09:39] the point of free software development is that it enables people to "scratch an itch" [09:40] any project which does not permit external contribution is effectively not useful in that sense, since you can't contribute scratched itches [09:41] * AlanBell installs eclipse to see how broken it is [09:41] Ah - I wouldn't recommend running the packaged eclipse AlanBell [09:41] eclipse is why i quit developing in java [09:42] lol [09:42] eclipse isn't that bad [09:42] it gets very broken when eclipse updates some of it's packages. [09:42] i was a java dev once. it's true! my degree was mostly java-based [09:42] by which i mean, it isn't the worst thing about java [09:42] just download a tarball and run it from ~/bin [09:42] AlanBell: what do you need eclipse for? [09:43] Eclipse works OK - it's a bit slow but I like the UI and integration of SVN and various languages [09:43] I also use Talend (built on Eclipse) [09:44] bigcalm: well apparently java applications don't work with unity [09:44] if you just want to test that i suggest something smaller [09:44] AlanBell: have a look at NetBeans [09:45] it is installed now [09:45] so I have a launcher icon, I click it, it launches [09:45] *eventually* :) [09:45] I have SSD, it launches [09:46] gedit launches slightly faster, but not by much :) [09:47] click, have mouthfull of coffee, put mug down, its ready [09:47] gedit loads as quickly as switching to an already running instance here [09:48] so now it's loaded, what happens? [09:49] AlanBell, I don't think Java and Unity are mutually exclusive [09:50] yeah, i never said they were [09:50] AlanBell, I think Eclipse is actually blacklisted from the global menu [09:50] i just said java apps confuse bamf [09:50] AlanBell, Something about it not coping with dynamic menu updates AFAIK [09:51] though open office (or whatever they're calling it this week) doesn't. that's written in java right? [09:51] oh, I turned off global menu because it breaks wayland [09:51] Tasktop, which is an Eclipse RCP app, does work with the global menu (not sure if this is an oversight, or deliberate though) [09:51] ali1234, LibreOffice is C++ with some Java bits [09:51] Which they are trying to remove as fast as possible [09:51] ok, that's probably why it works then [09:51] ali1234, There's a plugin - lo-menubar [09:51] AlanBell: you use wayland? [09:52] ali1234, But it's not regarded as stable enough to support, I've never had trouble with it [09:52] lo-menubar? what is that? [09:52] i'm talking about bamf, not global menus [09:52] Oh, soz [09:52] I was running some stuff in weston, GTK things 'work' but only if you turn off all the canonical stuff that goes off piste and requires native X [09:52] i also have global menus turned off, because they suck [09:53] so overlay scrollbars and global menus need turning off [09:53] yep [09:53] porting all that stuff to wayland is going to be fun [09:53] I quite like overlay scollbars for Eclipse, it has so many panes that the scrollbars become a major drain on it's screen real estate [09:53] luckily it will be fun for someone other than me [09:53] ali1234: How do you turn off that global menu thing? It get's on my nerves too. Having to move the mouse *way* up to the top of the screen - it used to be right there. [09:54] awilkins: and what if you want to resize the panes, and the handle thing just blocks you every time? [09:54] ali1234, It's not something I recall being frustrated by [09:54] i currently have an open bug about that one [09:55] TOShrun: just looking up the guide for doing it [09:55] ali1234, It may be worse since the most recent iteration of the scrollbars which are sensitive all along their height [09:55] you have to do a combination of removing packages and setting environment variables to get rid of it everywhere (because it requires so many hacks and patches to every UI toolkit) [09:56] ah [09:57] ok to start with you want to export UBUNTU_MENUPROXY= in your prefered place for putting environment variables [09:57] http://askubuntu.com/questions/10481/how-do-i-disable-the-global-application-menu [09:58] this question seems out of date and i'm sure there was a much better one [09:59] There are a few links to other interesting pages. Will read when I have more time. Thanks [10:01] morning all [10:01] http://askubuntu.com/questions/105889/can-i-completely-disable-the-menu-proxy [10:01] there are also issues if you use X11 forwarding and such [10:02] ok, eclipse does not confuse bamf any more [10:10] BAMF! [10:10] eclipse seems like any other application to me [10:16] Hi all o/ [10:17] word up [10:17] yeah, eclipse works fine [10:17] except for being eclipse [10:17] natch [10:18] i just mean in terms of launching, locking to launcher, etc [10:18] morning everyone :) [10:19] ah, not quite. unlock it from the launcher, then run it from the dash (not a terminal) and you get no icon [10:20] actually didn't someone run into that bug the other day? [10:20] if you minimise it and move to a different workspace, then go back (when it has no icon) you can't get to it. Unless you install Expo [10:21] grr. [10:21] fell of the internet there [10:21] alt+tab doesn't show it. Expo does. [10:21] Any Millbank peeps about? I have a problem trying to give Canonical a couple of grand... [10:21] too busy writing manuals for dumb users. [10:22] popey: is asleep selinuxium (shhh) [10:23] jpds: you about ^^^ [10:23] TOShrun, :) [10:23] I have pinged czajkowski as well... :) [10:23] Must work out how to create a password so I can login to freenode with the same name ;-) [10:24] davmor2: Hi. [10:24] omg loving virtual machine manager in precise, I can now save the vm state :) [10:24] jpds, has answered the call! [10:25] jpds: many thanks [10:27] SuperMatt, explain do you mean on KVM? [10:27] yeah [10:28] unless this is a feature that's been there for ages but I was too blind to see :P [10:31] SuperMatt. Has been a while since I have used KVM. I have two spare servers now to play with so will be setting it up again.. [10:36] !register | TOShrun [10:36] TOShrun: Information about registering your nickname: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat/Registration - Type « /nick » to select your nickname. Registration help available by typing /join #freenode === TOShrun is now known as TheOpenSourcerer [10:48] getting memtest errors on a bunch of new kit. same address on nearly every one. [10:48] :-\ [10:50] oimon: try another version of memtest might be a bug in memtest itself [10:51] it's possible, i was thinking that [10:54] when i want users to have read only access to a folder [10:54] do i just need to chown it and then go chmod 775 ? [10:56] oimon: it might be that the version of memtest doesn't know about the newer memory in the machine so is hitting a coding error maybe [10:56] Knightwise: 755 might be better [10:56] Knightwise: depending on your group setup [10:57] 755 == owner rw, group + rest of the world ro [10:57] you could also add the users to the group you want to allow read access for [11:00] alright davmor2 :) [11:01] MooDoo: me owld mucka 'ow am ya [11:02] davmor2: yes not too bad thanks [11:34] hi all [11:35] I've enabled root account for some test, ad after I've re-disabled root using passwd -d root , so why recovery mode ask for CTRL-D or password if root has empty password again? [11:38] so if I type "return" I can login without password, but I remember that recovery ( by default ) with root disabled doesn't ask for CTRL-D [11:43] yay oggcamp hotel booked [11:44] Where are you staying [11:45] DJones: at the britannia adelphi - http://oggcamp.org/accommodation/ [11:46] Right, hadn't realised most people tried to stay at one venue [11:49] DJones: they have had quite a few booking this morning [11:53]