[00:04] <len-dt> I think the amd64 is just linux-lowlatency shnatsel , no pae
[00:04] <shnatsel> len-dt: okay, I'll add that now
[00:05] <shnatsel> len-dt: oh wait
[00:05] <shnatsel> len-dt: I'll kill that dependency
[00:05] <shnatsel> len-dt: precise can't have that old kernels anyway
[00:06] <shnatsel> len-dt: pushed, it will build in PPA in an hour or so
[01:00] <ScottL>  /join #ubuntu-community-team
[01:24] <TheMuso> ScottL: Hey there, hope your trip was uneventful.
[01:29] <ScottL> TheMuso, aye, coming home was and i slept quite a bit as well :)
[01:29] <TheMuso> Good to heaR.
[01:30] <ScottL> TheMuso, how was your trip home, i imagine yours was quite a bit longer than mine :P
[01:30] <TheMuso> ScottL: Yeah it was, but it was also uneventful.
[01:30] <ScottL> that is good
[01:31] <ScottL> i looked at the blueprint for the kernel team and it does seem to have a line item about seeing about the lowlatency kernel
[01:31] <ScottL> tim seemed almost noncommittal about it though, he just said that he had it in the blueprint as something to do as long as they can collapse the other kernels
[01:34] <ScottL> eh, it's still only in the pad comments at this point:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20236/hardware-q-kernel-version-and-flavors/
[01:34] <ScottL> i'm quite sure tim doesn't particularly care for me, but i don't blame him though, i'm can be pretty single minded and annoying when i'm trying to get what i want :P
[01:42] <TheMuso> heh so can I. :)
[01:47] <ScottL> i found my plenary presentation:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3pT_9nb8o   @ 36:49
[01:49] <TheMuso> heh cool.
[01:52] <ScottL> it's kinda weird to know there is a video of a presentation that someone flew you across the us to give
[01:53] <ScottL> this whole ubuntu studio thing is kinda a weird "alice falling down the rabbit hole" situation sometimes
[01:56] <TheMuso> heh
[02:31] <len-dt> ScottL, speaking on stage is different than playing huh.
[02:32] <len-dt> good presentation.
[02:42] <ScottL> thanks len-dt , i still haven't seen it though, i'll wait until my wife is home and we can watch it together, somehow that seems like it won't be bad to watch then
[02:53] <len-dt> ScottL, there are some sound wierdnesses
[03:08] <ScottL> len-dt, you mean in the presentation video?
[03:08] <ScottL> that's probably true, i was warned that the sound was crappy, although the small snippet i heard sounded okay
[03:27] <ScottL> hehe, i watched it with my wife and i see what people meant about the sounds being crappy :P   two audio tracks used at once that are out of sync is never a good idea
[18:27] <scott-work> email sent the -devel list for blueprints, please read and give any feedback/suggestions
[18:28] <scott-work> but please don't just nitpick on particular work items at this point, this is a brainstorming session
[19:27] <shnatsel> scott-work: well, refactoring seeds to represent workflows would be great. Didn't the ubiquity patch needed for that land in Precise?
[19:28] <shnatsel> also, it would be neat if somebody added my performance items to the blueprint
[19:28] <scott-work> shnatsel: i was hoping that len or ailo would head that up, including adding their suggestions as well
[19:28] <scott-work> but if they don't i'll work it in then
[19:29] <shnatsel> we've got a new LightDM greeter in elementary, it remotely resembles unity greeter
[19:29] <scott-work> shnatsel: part of the ubiquity patch land in precise, we still need a few things to have that fully implemented
[19:29] <shnatsel> requires hardware acceleration, but in 12.10 it won't be an issue thanks to llvmpipe
[19:29] <shnatsel> scott-work: oh I see
[19:29] <shnatsel> what a
[19:29] <scott-work> mmmmmm, that's interesting about the lightdm greeter theme
[19:30] <shnatsel> it's not even a greeter theme anymore, it's a different greeter
[19:31] <shnatsel> scott-work: early demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mz09q6jREMY
[19:31] <shnatsel> scott-work: should be fully functional by the middle of the cycle
[19:32] <shnatsel> it has a fade-in on start, so you can smoothly transition from plymouth to the greeter
[19:32] <scott-work> watching
[19:32] <shnatsel> also a new notification daemon is coming with a lot of thought put into it, not like that terrible notify-osd, but that's not for 12.10 for you I guess
[19:33] <scott-work> it could be, depends on what is involved and when it would be available
[19:34] <shnatsel> well, there are some upstream memory leaks which notify-osd "fixes" with regular suicide
[19:34] <shnatsel> so it's not for the release based on 12.04 for us, so not for the release based on 12.10 for you
[19:38] <shnatsel> oh, pantheon shell also... not sure how well it will work for studio use cases, though
[19:40] <shnatsel> we've got a file browser, a fork of marlin (marlin is abandoned), but you seem to be content with thunar
[19:40] <shnatsel> save-as-you-type damn-extensible plain text (code) editor
[19:42] <shnatsel> also we will probably have cool boot screens, but that's a very low-priority item for you
[19:43] <ochosi> oh, nice, elementary - u-studio exchange :)
[19:43] <shnatsel> ochosi: yup :)
[19:43] <ochosi> if there's anything meaningful for xubuntu don't hesitate to head over
[19:44] <shnatsel> elementary <=> xubuntu? Hmm...
[19:44] <shnatsel> ochosi: is xfce okay with GSettings?
[19:44] <shnatsel> ochosi: we've got a lot of exciting stuff to share like Contrator
[19:45] <ochosi> right
[19:45] <shnatsel> ochosi: all our apps use Glib's GSettings API, if it's bridged into xfconf then we'd be glad to share
[19:45] <ochosi> i think i have to look into contractor more to know what is needed and what we could use it for
[19:45] <shnatsel> ochosi: http://elementaryos.org/journal/contractor-not-sharing-service
[19:46] <ochosi> yeah, such a bridge would also be useful for u-studio i guess
[19:46] <shnatsel> ochosi: GSettings has a lot of backends, but last time I checked xfconf was not one of them. There were keyfiles, gconf and dconf, and the latter is used in gnome and elementary
[19:47] <ochosi> mhm
[19:47] <shnatsel> ochosi: so if there's an xfconf gsettings backend or if xubuntu is OK with shipping dconf, let the fun begin!
[19:47] <ochosi> mind if i check in with you tomorrow? it's getting kinda late here...
[19:48] <shnatsel> ochosi: in fact Contractor doesn't use GSettings AFAIR
[19:48] <ochosi> i think dconf is used by xfconf anyway (if i'm not mistaken)
[19:48] <shnatsel> ochosi: sure it's OK
[19:48] <shnatsel> ochosi: last time I checked xfconf was older than dconf
[19:48] <shnatsel> ochosi: and was written from scratch
[19:48] <shnatsel> ochosi: meet me anytime at #elementary
[19:48] <ochosi> well, i'll check with guys @ #xfce-dev
[19:49] <ochosi> yeah, i'm also always there ;)
[19:49] <ochosi> but since xubuntu and u-studio are already collaborating
[19:49] <ochosi> and since i'm trying to forge a small connection to elementary and lubuntu
[19:49] <ochosi> i thought i'd speak up :)
[19:51] <shnatsel> ochosi: oh we need collab with lubuntu too, they are getting a litte too lightweight for us though
[19:51] <shnatsel> ochosi: their aim is like 128mb RAM and elementary OS uses 200
[19:51] <ochosi> phew
[19:51] <ochosi> well that's not our main goal
[19:51] <ochosi> we want usability, but that usually comes at a price
[19:52] <ochosi> anyhoo, time to hit the sack
[19:52] <shnatsel> last time I checked (and that was over a year ago) the DE was nowhere near being complete, it was like a bunch of random apps thrown together and called a DE
[21:10] <shnatsel> scott-work: our greeter is getting a major overhaul. expect awesomeness.
[21:19] <scott-work> hehehe :)  i will
[21:19] <scott-work> alrighty, gotta go and pick kids up 
[21:55] <ailo> Seems like there's at least one usb audio multichannel device that works under Linux (yet to be fully verified, I would say - there's a discussion about it on LAU) http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=65
[21:56] <ailo> holstein: ^
[22:01] <len-dt> ailo, the manufacture sure doesn't seem interested in adding linux as a supported system.
[22:04] <ailo> len-dt: I haven't heard of any that has
[22:05] <ailo> There are other devices that work too, like M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (8ch), with dedicated drivers, but not well enough
[22:05] <ailo> Dedicated, but not coded by M-Audio
[22:06] <len-dt> ailo, I guess the question is how open they are with info to developers.
[22:06] <ailo> This would be the only 8ch usb device that I have heard of that actually is usable
[22:07] <len-dt> I would be happy with 4
[22:08] <ailo> I was thinking about what about making it a strategy to really put a spotlight on this one product, try making them add linux as a supported OS, and then try making other manufacturers interesting in adding support too
[22:08] <ailo> Can't record drums with anything less than 8ch pretty much
[22:08] <ailo> 12 would be better
[22:09] <len-dt> Being able to say US recommends this or that, might help.
[22:10] <ailo> If it can be fully verified that this is a rock solid device, I wouldn't mind recommending it, only because there's no other to recommend
[22:10] <ailo> And since usb audio is such a nessecity for a lot of people, it makes it really important too
[22:11] <len-dt> ailo, there are so many platforms with USB only. Getting 2 i/o seems to be easy, but more is not.
[22:11] <ailo> Even 2ch is not simple, if you want anything more than 48kHz/16Bits
[22:12] <ailo> Not many devices to choose from really
[22:12] <len-dt> ailo, I am guessing that the USB 2.0 audio standard is "too open"... that having a driver is the standard?
[22:15] <len-dt> sync-able and expandable too. Out of my price range though ;-)
[22:15] <len-dt> ailo, but having said that, the price ($500) is very reasonable.
[22:16] <ailo> I would have bought it if I that was an option a year ago, when I got a 8ch firewire device
[22:17] <ailo> It's about the same specs as for the focusrite pro 40, which I have now
[22:18] <ailo> With usb, I wouldn't need to worry about what machine I use as much. Right now, I'm lucky we have a laptop with firewire
[22:18] <len-dt> If I was getting anything it would be the bigger delta (1010?) to sync to my d66
[22:18] <ailo> I have both
[22:18] <len-dt> ailo, I notice my local supplier doesn't have the 1010...
[22:18] <ailo> 12 ch, but it's not practical on the road
[22:19] <len-dt> I'm not there yet.
[22:24] <len-dt> ailo, this page looks very promising: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7543
[22:25] <len-dt> I note he seems to have done no set up at all. just plugged it in.
[22:26] <ailo> len-dt: There's a discussion about the device on LAU right now, where they say it is fully supported. A guy is going to report back having tested it himself
[22:29] <len-dt> The link above the guy says jack sees all 8 in and outs.
[22:29] <ailo> I'm just wondering about a few things, like latency, and the mixer inside it
[22:29] <ailo> Probably, functionality is somewhat limited
[22:30] <len-dt> "My jack setup is :
[22:30] <len-dt> sample rate : 48000
[22:30] <len-dt> samples/period : 256
[22:30] <len-dt> period/buffer : 2
[22:30] <len-dt> Jack estimated latency is : 10,7 Ms
[22:30] <len-dt> I'm on a Lenovo 3000 N200 dual core 2ghz 2gio ram, lubuntu 11.10+ KxStudio is my system and I hadn't experienced any performance issues by now."
[22:30] <ailo> Not good enough for me :P
[22:30] <len-dt> "I bought presonus audio box 1818 vsl today !
[22:30] <len-dt> Everything is working like a charm, meaning I can route any input to any card output (even earphones) and I can even set the clock source using the alsa mixer xfce front end. "
[22:31] <len-dt> ailo, 10ms is a bit high.
[22:32] <ailo> Even if he can connect to all inputs and outputs, doesn't mean he can change inside routing
[22:32] <len-dt> I'm not sure if this is someone who tested "how low can I go" either. Good enough for recording, but not for live I guess.
[22:32] <ailo> Yeah, for recording it has to be ok
[22:33] <ailo> Unless you need to record soft synths and stuff like that
[22:34] <len-dt> He says he can route stuff. Don't know how much of the onboard DSPs he can use.
[22:35] <ailo> He doesn't say anything about the mixer routing, inside the device
[22:35] <ailo> jack doesn't reveal that
[22:36] <len-dt> soft synths should not be a problem in recording either if they are recorded to a track... or even as a midi track. It is more fiddling to move the timing of the track after recording to line up though. Latency inside the internal mixer should be defined on the manufactures website.
[22:36] <ailo> On devices like that, it's more or less a full fledged mixer inside, when it comes to routing itself
[22:36] <ailo> len-dt: It's a little hard to follow your own playing if the latency is too high
[22:36] <ailo> You need to monitor yourself too
[22:38] <ailo> On firewire devices, you can use the ffado-mixer, but to my knowledge, there's nothing equivalent for alsa
[22:38] <ailo> Only lately is the ffado-mixer supporting my focusrite properly
[22:38] <ailo> I tried it last summer, and ended up muting all my inputs and outputs
[22:38] <len-dt> Wasn't thinking of that. I could say monitor on an external noise box. That would work for me, but the external patch would have to be close enough to the softsynth for me to get the right art input
[22:39] <ailo> As long as you're monitoring externally, latency is no problem
[22:39] <len-dt> Latency 	2.8 ms - 6 ms, analog in to out 
[22:40] <len-dt> So at least 1.4 from input to computer... before Jack sees it and starts counting.
[22:42] <len-dt> So 13 to 15 ms latency from xlr to jackd line to app.
[22:45] <len-dt> ailo, I don't know, but I would imagine midi out can be set to follow midi in.
[22:48] <len-dt> ailo, it has wordclock out, but not in. can't hook two together?
[22:48] <ailo> len-dt: It has 8ch ADAT, right?
[22:49] <len-dt> Yup. so you  can sync the adat or sync to the adat?
[22:49] <ailo> I haven't ever dabbled with ADAT, but I'm sure you can make the ADAT sync to the device
[22:50] <ailo> I was thinking about maybe just getting a 8ch mic pre with A/D converting and ADAT out to expand the device I have
[22:50] <ailo> But, that costs almost as much as another device
[22:51] <len-dt> That was about to be my comment. Are there many used adat machines around ?
[22:51] <ailo> I'm sure they are lying around in peoples basements. Haven't seen anyone use one for the longest time
[22:52] <len-dt> Are they more than 16 bit?
[22:52]  * len-dt can't remember...
[22:52] <ailo> 20bit or something like that? Don't really know
[22:53] <ailo> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb02/articles/alesishd24.asp
[22:53] <ailo> 16 but or 20 bit
[22:53] <len-dt> Still it would be good for using for less "important" lines. things that don't have much dynamic range.
[22:53] <ailo> I missed the part where it said 24 bit :P
[22:54] <len-dt> the 1818vsl claims to have all the mixer eeefects you might need built in.
[22:55] <ailo> Yeah, just wondering if that's just an external software using its dps for processing, or if the fx really are builtin
[22:56] <len-dt> expensive toy that one...
[22:57] <len-dt> I'm looking through the manual... it may say something.
[23:00] <ailo> It's really hard to reinvent the wheel, btw. I've been slowly doing that for 2 or more years now
[23:01] <len-dt> It looks like the "fat channel" SW has to be loaded into the unit. Probably at boot/power up.
[23:01] <len-dt> It comes on a cd/DVD.
[23:02] <ailo> Never had a device with fx dsp. I think pro tools has had that for years
[23:03] <ailo> len-dt: My ide for creating puredata libs http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=3866
[23:03] <len-dt> I think there are three DSPs in the box though.
[23:03] <ailo> Have had one for more than 6 months, but started a new one now. Reorganizing the whole library structure. 
[23:04] <ailo> Since each library is also a git repo, I build in controls for handling the repo as well
[23:06] <len-dt> learning PD is on my to do list... but it will have to wait for now.
[23:06] <ailo> It's such an extensive project, that I've lost my way numerous times, having to start over. Kind of what's happening now, but I'm getting better at not messing things up too much
[23:07] <ailo> I'm creating a whole live environment, doing everything in pd. Sequencing, sample playing, fx, everything
[23:08] <len-dt> I was thinking studio in a box, but you are using it for live so it would be different.
[23:08] <ailo> I just finished an object for saving settings a few days ago. It handles replacing a saved tag out of 50'000 and autosaving pretty well
[23:08] <ailo> Well, mostly using the help of an external object not made by me
[23:09] <ailo> pd I guess is really best suited for live audio
[23:12] <ailo> When making this helper program, I made it themable. Been putting too much time on the visual, but it helps keeping the spirit up having something nice to look at
[23:13] <len-dt> Yup. been there.
[23:14] <len-dt> ailo,  the manual for the 1818 seems to indicate that latency can be lower than 11ms. Just that that is a good setting for recording.
[23:28] <ailo> len-dt: Haven't done much on the wiki. Been mostly coding my own stuff. The kernel page is a little messy, but I'm going to clean it up during this week https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/audio-settings/kernel.
[23:29] <ailo> Not really saying so much right now. I need to go through all the configs and maybe add some.
[23:29] <len-dt> ailo, the kernel page looked pretty good to me. It has the information needed I think... from a non-kerenl guru point...
[23:30] <ailo> I still need to set up a PPA for kernel builds. Would make testing somewhat easier, even though building your own is not that hard. Just takes time
[23:31] <ailo> len-dt: Did you think more about runlevels, and how to solve some of your problems?
[23:34] <ailo> len-dt: I think probably the best way to continue with wiki pages is to name them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/<pagename>, and if it's audio related, you could just add a link to it on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/audio-settings
[23:34] <len-dt> ailo, it's all there. Not hard really. I should for security sake make a program that takes 4 command line arguments and throws everything else away.
[23:35] <ailo> len-dt: For instance, you could put links under "Categories" on that page
[23:36] <len-dt> I need to put together a "roadmap" for Scott first.
[23:36] <len-dt> The roadmap is for tweaks only.
[23:37] <len-dt> ailo, I started on it, but already I am putting too much in it ;-)
[23:37] <ailo> len-dt: I'd like to review that before hand if you don't mind. 
[23:37] <ailo> Just to give you some input etc
[23:38] <len-dt> ailo, sure. It has at least two steps of review after I finish anyway.
[23:38] <len-dt> It isn't deciding anything so much as defining areas to look at.
[23:39] <ailo> Yeah, of course. Just good to be more than one, since we are both into the same topic
[23:40] <len-dt> Far example one item might be "swap issues" This would include setting swappiness or no swap or using zram or even getting more ram...
[23:40] <len-dt> But the roadmap would just say swap issues.
[23:41] <ailo> len-dt: Done any gtk or python coding anytime?
[23:41] <ailo> I guess gtk at least?
[23:42] <ailo> I was thinking about the possibility of making a ubuntustudio-controls application, which has been long overdue
[23:42] <len-dt> No. I had just started the debian developers page stuff. with the guitar tunner.
[23:42] <ailo> One purpose it would have it to help someone who did not install Ubuntu Studio, but some other version of Ubuntu to get their system pro audio capable
[23:43] <len-dt> Ya, I tend to write guis in tktcl still.
[23:44] <ailo> I'm not a seasoned Python coder by any means, but with time enough, it can happen. Already made one version, but won't be using any of that anyway
[23:44] <ailo> I've been sort of planning to code the app during this summer, but it's hard to say how much time I will really have for it. 
[23:44] <len-dt> I was going to write the config for tweaks setting for my RL thing that way. Basically as a part of my workflow app. which also needs a user config thing.
[23:45] <ailo> Would be good to separate them, if only one is added
[23:45] <ailo> But, why not make one controllable by the other?
[23:46] <len-dt> That is sort of the idea. The workflow app needs to be small and not take much resources because it is live all the time. the config should do all the heavy lifting...
[23:46] <ailo> My main prio is the pd project I'm working on. I also have a mixing thing coming up, which will take at least 1-2 weeks of full time. And then there's all these misc US stuff
[23:48] <ailo> My goal with a -controls application would actually be to make it usable by any Debian based distro, but make it plugginable, so that the US version would have some US specific things. 
[23:49] <ailo> Would be great to have it as a systray/indicator app, but the workflow thing you're working on would suit just as well as the holder for it
[23:49] <len-dt> That is what configuration is for. That is also why multiple config files is good. A config can be added for each US workflow meta.
[23:49] <ailo> I would love to help with the workflow app, but since my coding skills are yet not that time efficient, I just don't have the time
[23:50] <len-dt> There could be some generic ones that come with the workflow app and then the user has the config editor to make their own custom workflows as well.
[23:57] <ailo> That would be neat
[23:58] <len-dt> ailo, The presonus 1818 user manual has a not bad tutorial on recording, everything from mic placement to levels/eq/compression...
[23:58] <len-dt> The workflow app right now also has a red button that turns audio tweaks on and off.
[23:59] <len-dt> ailo, the 1818 manual even includes the recipe for Jambalaya  ???