[01:00] <Unit193> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements#Lightweight_GUI_alternative_.28Xubuntu_and_Lubuntu.29 That right for what we say is the requirement?
[05:22] <pleia2> hm, I can't even find the page on the site where we mention specs
[05:22] <pleia2> oh, on the download page
[05:23] <pleia2> we do say 512 is "strongly recommended" but it can run with 256
[05:23] <pleia2> I'd say the specs on the help wiki are fine
[05:24] <pleia2> thanks for keeping an eye out Unit193 :)
[05:25] <Unit193> I'd say the others are outdated, but it'd depend on the processor I guess.
[05:26] <pleia2> well, things like flash won't work so well :\
[05:26] <pleia2> but it never works well
[05:27] <Unit193> Flash has more to do with CPU, 2G computer doesn't do as well with 1G computer. :P
[05:27] <micahg> you need at least 512MB at this point to run flash half decently (gnash might sip less)
[06:45] <knome> bug 994816 \o/
[06:47] <ochosi> morning
[06:47] <knome> hey ochosi :)
[06:48]  * knome should poke js to learn some drag&drop
[06:48] <ochosi> mhm
[06:48] <knome> not only because of the bug, but generally i think that would be useful
[06:48] <ochosi> i almost finished blackbird 0.1 yesterday btw
[06:48] <ochosi> yeah, sounds useful
[06:48] <knome> great
[06:49] <ochosi> 0.1 == gtk2/xfwm4 complete, initial gtk3 version
[06:50] <knome> ochosi, the test vote is up
[06:50] <ochosi> i already voted last night ;)
[06:50] <knome> aha
[06:51] <knome> dang
[06:51] <knome> apparently we can't see the results until the poll is over
[06:51] <ochosi> well that is good
[06:51] <knome> in a way, yeah
[06:51] <ochosi> otherwise there could be tactical votes
[06:51] <knome> yeah, but poll admin
[06:52] <knome> or creator...
[06:52] <ochosi> or people could wait with voting until they're a tie-breaker etc
[06:52] <knome> i mean, what's his motivation to give tactical votes
[06:52] <ochosi> well still, why should anyone see that?
[06:52] <ochosi> because he's a secret dictator rather than a democrat? :)
[06:52] <knome> if we do a user survey-like poll, isn't it stupid we need to wait for the poll to end to see the results?
[06:53] <knome> say, we set the poll time to 2 weeks to gather maximum number of votes
[06:53] <ochosi> i thought we'll use this as tool for team-decisions?
[06:53] <knome> sure, but i'm also investigating if it could be used in other things as well
[06:53] <knome> and i thought the team-decisions would be open...
[06:53] <knome> i mean
[06:54] <knome> it doesn't make much sense in a 10-person team to have closed votes
[06:54] <knome> "i won't tell you what i think"
[06:54] <knome> that doesn't encourage discussion
[06:54] <ochosi> well they can be open afterwards
[06:54] <ochosi> or: they have to be open afterwards
[06:54] <knome> sure, i see your point for the votes not to be shown
[06:55] <ochosi> i can see why you'd wanna have the numbers beforehand, but i think there are no real downsides to not having that (other than practicing your patience – and i don*t mean the game "patience" ;) )
[06:55] <knome> lol
[06:55] <knome> well, if we'd know the results before, we could start doing the work for the blueprints ;)
[06:56] <knome> i'm guessing some of the items are going to be something that we all agree anyway
[06:56] <knome> like "analyze and optimize boot times"
[06:56] <knome> who wouldn't want that in?
[06:56] <ochosi> yeah, and if we knew the results before, we even wouldn't have to set up polls ;)
[06:56] <Unit193> Nobody wants that.
[06:56] <knome> especially if you don't have to do that...
[06:56] <ochosi> well boot times... ubuntu takes care of that for us
[06:57] <knome> nah
[06:57] <knome> we can make it better
[06:57] <ochosi> so i'd say let's boot this item from the list :D
[06:57] <ochosi> (woohoo! word-play before even having coffee)
[06:57] <knome> ubuntu doesn't take very good care of that for us then, since my 12.04 boots much slower than 11.10
[06:58] <ochosi> yeah, but it could be related to upstart rather than to our session
[06:58] <knome> well actually, i suppose it *does* relate to our session
[06:58] <baizon> but the shutdown process is much faster with 12.04
[06:58] <knome> but we should investigate
[06:58] <ochosi> baizon: +1
[06:58] <knome> baizon, don't know about that, been really fast for me for a long time
[06:58] <ochosi> baizon: in fact i think 11.10 was the only really slow shutdown i ever had
[06:58] <baizon> agree
[06:58] <knome> if we can cut even 0.5seconds off the boot with fast machines, that's much for the slower
[07:17] <ochosi> mr_pouit: would you take care of the technical side of getting more dialogs into the settings-manager? (i would – along with others – try to get a selection/list done)
[07:18] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i'm referring to the 12.10 roadmap and putting us as assignees
[07:18] <knome> ochosi, isn't that just editing the .desktop files, thus a good item for somebody just starting to contribute?
[07:19] <ochosi> yeah, i guess
[07:19] <ochosi> but we still need an assignee before next week
[07:19] <knome> mmh.
[07:19] <knome> remember, we can approve items later in the cycle too
[07:20] <knome> "Any items added to the list after the brainstorming phase and those that were decided to postpone at the approving phase will need to be approved by the Xubuntu project leader along with the concerning team leaders."
[07:21] <ochosi> right, good point
[07:21] <Unit193> To be honest, I'm waiting to see if there is any low hanging fruit after better people have already taken some.
[07:21] <knome> that actually sounds easier than "... the Xubuntu team will approve or reject the proposed blueprints by a simple majority vote."
[07:21] <knome> Unit193, ^ that would be one
[07:21] <ochosi> yup
[07:21] <ochosi> it's mostly compiling a useful/meaningful list
[07:22] <Unit193> http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/?repo=Oneiric&arch=i386&package=apt-offline&have=xubuntu-desktop problem, ossifer?
[07:22] <knome> ossifer?
[07:22] <knome> :D
[07:23] <Unit193> And I didn't remember less wasn't already installed. >_>
[07:23] <knome> is more installed then?
[07:23] <knome> (not a pun...)
[07:23] <Unit193> I generally like less better, in many cases.
[07:24] <knome> i don't have a preference
[07:24] <Unit193> Task: minimal
[07:24] <knome> more has better help
[07:24] <knome> at least when typing 'more' and 'less' as is
[07:25] <Unit193> So, apt-offline a problem?
[07:25] <knome> probably not
[07:25] <knome> just needs to be added to the seed, if the team approves it
[07:26] <knome> unless we want to start a more complete meta-talk about tools
[07:26] <knome> like "which tools are worth including, or should we include any case-specific tools"
[07:26] <knome> a bit like pastebinit
[07:26] <knome> "is it really useful for most of our users"
[07:27] <Unit193> Useful to me when they try to paste a 30 line file into #xubuntu :P
[07:27] <ochosi> i think apt-offline has a meaningful role in a default install
[07:27] <knome> yes, you, but "for most of our users"
[07:27] <ochosi> it's fairly different from pastebinit imo
[07:27] <ochosi> (i mean its role)
[07:28] <knome> yes, but they both are tools whatsoever
[07:28] <ochosi> for pastebinit you can simply do apt-get install blah. with apt-offline it's not that easy (assuming you're in a scenario without internet)
[07:29] <Unit193> Doesn't synaptic have that?
[07:29] <Unit193> !offline
[07:29] <knome> we're probably dropping synaptic for 12.10
[07:29] <knome> so we can't count on that
[07:30] <Unit193> What? That's crazy...
[07:30] <knome> no, it's not, synaptic is not really maintained
[07:30] <knome> or, that's what it is, maintained, but not developed
[07:31] <Unit193> Heh, well it's loooads better than USC...
[07:31] <ochosi> ... and we currently have 3 methods of installing packages
[07:31] <knome> Unit193, but we're probably dropping USC too.
[07:31]  * ochosi is currently investigating a cooperation on lubuntu-software-center with elementary/lubuntu/xubuntu
[07:31] <Unit193> That saves a purge for me.
[07:31] <ochosi> maybe we should involve u-studio as well
[07:31] <knome> mm-hmm
[07:32] <knome> sc[tab][tab][tab][tab] -- GAAH he's not here!
[07:32] <knome> ;)
[07:32] <ochosi> where are the studio folks, i mean really?
[07:32] <knome> taking a break?
[07:32] <Unit193> Heh, back when making it I had already thought "lightweight-software-center) rather than Lubuntu.
[07:32] <knome> it's a good time to do it now.
[07:33] <knome> i have to say i don't fancy any "software center" :/
[07:33] <ochosi> hm right, i didn't know they are taking a break
[07:33] <knome> i don't know if they are
[07:33] <ochosi> was wondering whether they're taking a break from xubuntu
[07:33] <knome> just guessing...
[07:33] <knome> lol
[07:33] <Unit193> Quite, all I need is terminal and apt.
[07:33] <knome> no, scott isn't in #us-devel either
[07:33] <ochosi> k
[07:34] <knome> when i want to search or find apps i don't know well enough (like, i want a "dvd ripping app"), i go to GUI
[07:34] <knome> and i think the way synaptic shows the packages is way superior than the software centers
[07:34] <knome> they all make me feel like i need to be shepherded
[07:34] <ochosi> many users need to be shepherded
[07:34] <ochosi> (if that verb even exists)
[07:34] <knome> hahah, i know
[07:35] <knome> now it does! languages are dynamic!
[07:35] <ochosi> the main problem i see with synaptic is that the gui is a bit too messy and that "technical items" are mixed with "apps"
[07:35] <ochosi> i mean for newcomers
[07:35] <knome> yeah, but there is the ubuntu logo...
[07:36] <knome> oh, that's there for the libs too
[07:36] <knome> bleh
[07:36] <knome> how does SC make a difference between the apps and libs?
[07:36] <knome> there must be an apt tag
[07:37] <knome> it would be insane to control that manually
[07:37] <Unit193> gmusicbrowser, sc, parole, disk-creator, and a few others are purged within minutes of install/upgrade.
[07:38] <knome> Unit193, well yeah, i suppose most power users will always remove certain packages after installation, no matter what the default seed was
[07:39] <Unit193> I understand this, but it also means I don't happen to know how to use them.
[07:39] <Unit193> I expect this.
[07:39] <ochosi> knome: afaik they make that distinction based on desktop files (there was a bug with xfce packages a while ago)
[07:40] <knome> ochosi, i'm wondering if synaptic could have that feature too
[07:40] <ochosi> sure
[07:40] <knome> (yes, it would still be ancient, but that'd shed some hope)
[07:40] <ochosi> it could probably even use the same source as usc
[07:40] <ochosi> s/source/method
[07:40] <ochosi> but i don't see anyone maintaining synaptic
[07:40] <knome> isn't mvo maintaining it
[07:40] <ochosi> it would also need a port to gtk3, so why not just write something new?
[07:41] <knome> so, again, somebody wants to join xubuntu-team
[07:41] <knome> do we know "aman sharma" ?
[07:42] <ochosi> never heard of
[07:42] <knome> yeah...
[07:42] <knome> i love when people do not have the patience to read the team description
[07:42] <ochosi> hmmhm
[07:42] <knome> it very clearly states:
[07:42] <knome> Please note that only users who have contributed to Xubuntu perpetually will be approved to the team.
[07:43] <knome> and then tells the people:
[07:43] <knome> To start contributing, join us at #xubuntu-devel or the Xubuntu development mailing list and introduce yourself as well as your skill set. Thanks for your interest and understanding.
[07:43] <knome> we probably should link to our website too
[07:44] <ochosi> yeah
[07:44] <thauriswulfa> Ok I got it I'll have to make contributions first
[07:45] <ochosi> :)
[07:45] <ochosi> hi thauriswulfa 
[07:45] <knome> thauriswulfa, aha, so it's you ;)
[07:45]  * knome just fed up with the people who aren't even on IRC, or anything...
[07:45] <thauriswulfa> yep its me
[07:46] <knome> thauriswulfa, so, what are you interested in?
[07:46] <thauriswulfa> yep
[07:46]  * Unit193 is never on IRC.
[07:47] <thauriswulfa> don't worry approve me only when my contributions to project will be significant enough
[07:47] <knome> hehe, yeah, i will ;)
[07:47] <knome> so, to ask again, where would you like to contribute to?
[07:47] <knome> development? community? documentation?
[07:47] <ochosi> artwork?
[07:47] <ochosi> =)
[07:47] <thauriswulfa> development
[07:49] <knome> thauriswulfa, so, would you like to pick up a blueprint?
[07:50] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
[07:51] <thauriswulfa> thanks
[07:51] <knome> To start contributing now, navigate to http://xubuntu.org/contribute/. The page will give you some good starting points to get involved as well as list the areas where you can help.
[07:51] <knome> ochosi, ^ sounds good?
[07:52] <ochosi> yup
[07:52] <knome> k, done
[07:53] <knome> Unit193, so, you'd like to take the "settings manager" -item?
[07:53] <Unit193> Asking me at 03:53 isn't a good idea, but if nobody else does and an idiot can actually do it, why not?
[07:54] <knome> Unit193, feel free to think until tomorrow ;)
[07:54] <knome> thauriswulfa, is there something specific in development you are interested in?
[07:55] <knome> thauriswulfa, unfortunately, we don't have up-to-date documentation of how to start developing and/or what areas we could use help with... but i don't think fixing bugs would be a bad start, for example :)
[07:57] <thauriswulfa>  thats what I am trying to find out. I've been using xubuntu since a long time so I wanted to contribute and I am already subscribed to mailing list but didn't have time in past
[07:57] <thauriswulfa> I'll find my way to contribute
[07:57] <knome> thauriswulfa, okay, great :) mr_pouit and micahg (not around right now) are our main developers
[07:57] <thauriswulfa> :-)
[07:58] <knome> astraljava started helping us out too in the precise cycle
[07:58] <knome> feel free to poke them if you need something to do, or are lost :)
[07:58] <knome> others can help too, but those three are on top of the development issues best
[07:58] <thauriswulfa> ok I'll
[08:30] <mr_pouit> o hai
[08:30] <Unit193> Howdy.
[08:30] <thauriswulfa> hello mr_pouit
[08:30] <mr_pouit> ochosi: if nobody else wants to do it, why not (but as knome said, it's something easy enough for a newcomer who wants to be involved ;-)
[08:30] <mr_pouit> (or not newcomer, anyone :p)
[09:08] <knome> well, yeah, it's something really anybody can grasp during the development phase of the cycle, which is a few months :P
[09:35] <knome> astraljava, sent personal messages via LP to those three, who were in the wiki, but not in the LP team
[09:35] <knome> madnick, you here?
[09:35] <knome> Unit193 too :P
[09:35] <knome> madnick, Unit193: you need to enter your information to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers
[10:04] <astraljava> knome: ACK, thanks.
[12:28] <mr_pouit> ah, I forgot to apply a patch from xfce4-utils to xfce4-session in the ppa
[12:29] <mr_pouit> (alacarte will try to use gnome-desktop-item-edit ;-)
[13:11] <bluesabre> knome: I can help with testing as well (I love finding bugs) :-D
[13:12] <knome> bluesabre, add you information to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers, join the team at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers and see http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ for more information on how to get started
[13:12] <knome> bluesabre, right now there is not much to test, but it's good to prepare for that :)
[13:13] <bluesabre> yup
[13:14] <ochosi> mr_pouit: oh, also: i noticed something with xfce4-notifyd-config must be wrong, it doesn't show up in the new settings-manager (and the rest of the menu)
[13:14] <ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i noticed you love finding bugs :)
[13:14] <bluesabre> hehe
[13:16] <knome> bluesabre, erm, did you miss the wiki-part? ;)
[13:16] <knome> GridCube, \o/
[13:17] <GridCube> i assigned myself to the items i added on the wiki
[13:17] <GridCube> :)
[13:17] <knome> good
[13:17] <GridCube> ohai knome o/
[13:18] <GridCube> i did some searchs and i found that the only xrandr frontend thats left its arandr, all the rest are gone
[13:18] <knome> heh
[13:18] <GridCube> !info arandr
[13:18] <bluesabre> knome: working on the wiki part right now
[13:18] <bluesabre> :D
[13:18] <GridCube> !info grandr
[13:18] <knome> bluesabre, good, i'll approve you once you're done :)
[13:20] <GridCube> oh, look at that
[13:20] <GridCube> !info lxrandr
[13:20] <GridCube> o:
[13:21] <GridCube> mm, but doesnt seem to have all the tools arandr has
[13:25] <bluesabre> knome: finished adding
[13:25] <knome> bluesabre, approved
[13:25] <bluesabre> lightning fast
[13:25] <knome> yeah, i get wiki notifications ;)
[13:33] <astraljava> ...into your cortex.
[13:36] <GridCube> :/
[13:42] <ochosi> btw, if we go for arandr that should go into the settings-manager _instead_ of the xfce-display-settings imo
[13:45] <GridCube> second
[13:47] <GridCube> i have a question though, because i still use 4.8, maybe in 4.10 theres a better monitor management system?
[13:47] <GridCube> i havent tried that yet
[13:47] <mr_pouit> ochosi: re xfce4-notifyd: yep, it didn't get a new release for 4.10 (it's not in core). That's why its desktop file still uses categories for the 4.8 settings manager
[13:48] <bluesabre> GridCube: Just opened the display settings, looks like the 4.8 version.  Can't really test it though, in vbox atm
[13:48] <mr_pouit> I'm waiting for someone to design + code a clean ui for xfce4-display-settings...
[13:48] <mr_pouit> no, it didn't change
[13:49] <mr_pouit> (many people complain, or tell that it's easy to update by adding comboboxes, but it'll be plain ugly)
[13:51] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i can do the design part, will you do the coding part then? :p
[13:51] <ochosi> i mean the stuff is all there, the functions
[13:51] <ochosi> i'm using the extended desktop right now
[13:52] <ochosi> wow, adding new stuff to the settings-manager is really easy...
[13:52] <mr_pouit> yeah, most functions are there, you just need to do some ninja moves with xfconf-query
[13:53] <mr_pouit> ochosi: it depends on the ui you propose (things like drag'n'drop of outputs like arandr, I can't do, that's why nothing changed ;-)
[13:53] <ochosi> listen up everyone: mr_pouit is a ninja!
[13:54] <ochosi> well we can do something simple for starters
[13:54] <ochosi> anyway, if you're serious i can set up a page in the xfce design wiki for it
[13:56] <mr_pouit> +1, I feel bad letting it rot, as I was the one to rewrite it for 4.8 (with jeromeg)
[13:56] <ochosi> ok, cool
[13:56] <ochosi> btw, amazing stuff nick did there with the new settings-managwer
[13:57] <ochosi> after editing a desktop-file, the launcher appears _live_ in the settings-manager or changes category without restarting
[13:57] <mr_pouit> garcon rulez :P
[13:57] <ochosi> yup
[14:05] <mr_pouit> one fun thing could be to extend launcher plugin with bamf to track open apps like a dock :P
[14:05] <ochosi> yeah, i would be more than just up for that
[14:05] <ochosi> there's a very immature project in xfce-git
[14:05] <ochosi> maybe you saw
[14:05] <ochosi> btw, i think the settings-manager needs debugging
[14:05] <mr_pouit> I remember the discussion, but forgot the project name ;>
[14:05] <ochosi> seems like i can't add an endless amount of launchers
[14:25] <ochosi> mr_pouit: is it possible that multiple categories interfere with each other?
[14:27] <mr_pouit> ochosi: what's your issue?
[15:23] <ochosi> mr_pouit: at some point the desktop-files i edited stopped showing up in the categories
[15:24] <ochosi> or in settings-man at all
[15:25] <ochosi> might have to test a bit more whether it's related to specific launchers
[15:25] <ochosi> is there a reason why they wouldn't show up?
[15:26] <ochosi> e.g. software sources
[15:27] <ochosi> oh right, it had NoDisplay=true 
[15:27] <ochosi> stupid me
[15:28] <ochosi> pavucontrol also doesn't show up
[15:30] <ochosi> currently i have these btw: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05152012-053003pm.php
[15:30] <ochosi> they really add up quickly
[15:33] <baizon> i will switch to that theme right away :D
[15:33] <baizon> after it is relesed :>
[16:21] <ochosi> baizon: a first version will hopefully be out before the weekend. but there are still so many things to tweak and fix...
[16:22] <baizon> ochosi: will it be available for 12.04?
[16:23] <ochosi> baizon: well themes are easy to install, in fact you can "mkdir ~/.themes; cd ~/.themes; git clone git@github.com:shimmerproject/Blackbird.git" and then set blackbird in the appearance and wm-settings
[16:23] <baizon> hmm, your right
[16:23] <baizon> thanks :)
[16:23] <ochosi> np
[16:23] <ochosi> i need testers anyway
[16:23] <ochosi> so don't hesitate to try it and give me feedback
[16:23] <baizon> ok
[16:24] <ochosi> mr_pouit: ok, maybe something is wrong with pavucontrol.desktop, at least i can't get it to show in the settings-manager
[19:23] <ochosi> scott-work: just fyi, i'm working on a dark theme that bears some similarities to the previous u-studio default theme
[19:24] <scott-work> ooooooh!  that is very interesting news, ochosi. i look forward to that :)
[19:37] <ochosi> scott-work: you can test blackbird in the shimmer github-repo (mostly gtk2 and xfwm4 atm)
[19:38] <ochosi> scott-work: btw, i'm not sure i'd recommend it as a default theme though. dark themes are really problematic. already came across a few libreoffice and smaller qt issues
[19:42] <scott-work> cool, i look forward to testing this next week :)
[21:40] <knome> more access for xubuntu-team in xubuntu.org \o/
[22:15] <mprice> out of curiosity what is going on with the xubuntu-docs? I would like to bring it back to life instead of the sad state that its in now
[22:16] <mprice> *help
[22:16] <knome> mprice, there's plans to update them during the 12.10 cycle - feel free to join us
[22:16] <knome> more details will be sent out to the development list later
[22:17] <knome> but the process is definitely open for everyone, and i'm making sure it is really easy to hop in
[22:18]  * GridCube points that not even the logos in the documentation are closely right
[22:19] <mprice> the version number isn't even correct and in launchpad the development version is still stated as natty
[22:19] <Unit193> Docs? Something other than manpage and archwiki?
[22:20] <mprice> I'm more than willing to help clean it up and update it 
[22:20] <knome> Unit193, applications menu -> help
[22:21] <knome> mprice, great to hear that :)
[22:21] <knome> we'll be start soon enough
[22:21] <knome> GridCube, and yeah, we will update the logos and the appearance too ;)
[22:22] <bramwelt> Any update on hosting an xubuntu mirror at the OSUOSL? I haven't recieved any mail from the list. :)
[22:22] <knome> mprice, are you subscribed to the xubuntu-devel mailing list?
[22:22] <knome> bramwelt, pleia2 should have been investigating it
[22:22] <knome> bramwelt, if she didn't, i'm sure she'll go "oops" as she got that ^ ping ;)
[22:22] <mprice> ya I am 
[22:23] <knome> mprice, good. so stay tuned :)
[22:23] <bramwelt> knome: Thanks! Just wanted to know if it was being looked at. :)
[22:23] <knome> yup, we're on it
[22:24] <Unit193> knome: Hmmm... Wrong channel again.
[22:24] <knome> Unit193, what is?
[22:24] <Unit193> I is.
[22:24] <knome> heh. :)
[22:24] <knome> don't worry
[22:25] <knome> we should probably start logging -offtopic though to catch all the devel talk ;]]
[22:25] <Unit193> Heck no.
[22:26] <knome> well i'm just teasing you. ;)
[22:26] <knome> and will continue, if dev talk continues at -ot ;)