[00:13] <rex> h
[15:01]  * xnox 0/
[15:01] <cjwatson> hey folks
[15:01]  * stgraber waves
[15:01] <infinity> \o
[15:02] <cjwatson> Steve asked me to run today's IRC meeting as he has a conflict
[15:02] <jodh> o/
[15:02] <cjwatson> So a couple of notices first before everyone falls asleep:
[15:02] <jodh> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[15:03] <cjwatson>  * Please do your blueprint drafting *this week* so that we get an accurate burndown graph on status.ubuntu.com as soon as possible.  You don't have to do a full wiki page if it just boils down to a few work items, only if it seems to need more exposition than that; so it shouldn't take too long.
[15:04] <cjwatson> (If you're not sure what to draft, you might try going through "my schedule" on summit, and/or looking through the foundations track, and/or looking for specs on Launchpad where you're marked as drafter.)
[15:04] <xnox> cjwatson: any wiki pages / tips on drafting blueprints the proper way (tm)?
[15:05] <ev> xnox: anything mpt has ever written forms a good example of a well-written spec
[15:05] <cjwatson>  * 12.04.1 is happening, a bit later than originally planned but no doubt sooner than we'll be ready for.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock has the current schedule, which puts it at 23 August in line with feature freeze for 12.10.
[15:05] <cjwatson> ev: but massive overkill for a lot of our specs :-)
[15:05] <infinity> ev: Fanboy.
[15:05] <xnox> ev: thanks.
[15:06] <cjwatson> So please keep a particular eye on anything that gets assigned to you for SRUs, though I'm sure that stgraber, bdmurray, and stokachu will help keep us in line there
[15:06] <stokachu> :P
[15:07] <cjwatson> xnox: I don't have anything immediately to hand - if you're still unsure after looking round a few examples from your teammates, let me know and I'll walk you through it
[15:07] <cjwatson> OK, that's it for notices
[15:07] <xnox> cjwatson: ok thanks.
[15:07] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:07] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed May 16 15:07:19 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:07] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:07] <cjwatson> #topic Lightning round
[15:07] <cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry bdmurray cjwatson doko ev infinity jodh ogra stgraber stokachu xnox)
[15:07] <cjwatson> ogra stgraber doko barry infinity bdmurray xnox jodh stokachu ev cjwatson
[15:07] <cjwatson> (not fixed, honest)
[15:07] <ogra_> whee ! me first !
[15:07] <ogra_> done:
[15:07] <ogra_> * been sick since UDS (pneumonia apparently), first day completely without fever is today it seems.
[15:07] <ogra_> todo:
[15:07] <ogra_> * tomorrow is ascension day in germany which is a public holiday so i wont be around
[15:07] <ogra_> * finishing https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-embedded-rootfs to be in proper shape for acceptance
[15:07] <ogra_> * finishing https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-hwpack-integration to be in proper shape for acceptance
[15:07] <ogra_> * happy to take WIs from "event based initrd" and the "full image upgrades" specs
[15:07] <ogra_> * still not done all merges
[15:08] <ogra_> * promised doko to look into the gcc-4.7 FTBFS issues in debian and file debdiffs for failing packages
[15:08] <ogra_> ..
[15:08] <stgraber> Mix of things done pre and post UDS:
[15:08] <stgraber> - Networking
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Tracked down race condition between NM and presence of loopback, will be in next NM SRU
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Tracked down source of network disconnect on wifi with IPv6 + RDNSS, currently testing a patch, should be in next NM SRU
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Merged ifupdown from Debian, got upstream to fix some bugs found by Quantal testers
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Got dual-stack IPv4/IPv6 connectivty working over 3G with the Orange Poland experimental network.
[15:08] <stgraber>    Currently doing that from the command line with a Nokia E51 using multiple PDP contexts for the 2 APNs. (need to blog about it)
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Poked some upstream kernel developers to try and get bug 936714 fixed upstream (so we have it for 12.10 and in 12.04 with the backport kernel)
[15:08] <stgraber> - Other
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Updated python-apt and lxc for quantal
[15:08] <stgraber>  - First pass through my list of merges/syncs
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Moved all non-english langpacks from Edubuntu's livefs to /pool and updated language-selector to deal properly with gcompris' langpacks. This should save > 30min of install time.
[15:08] <stgraber> - SRU
[15:08] <stgraber>  - Pushed ldm SRU to precise (bug 991745)
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Pushed lxc SRU to precise (bug 999187)
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Helped with the resolvconf SRU, took a few times to get it right, but the one currently in -proposed should be good (bug 994539, bug 989585)
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Pushed nagios-nrpe SRU to hardy, lucid, natty, oneiric and precise. Needs help validating as initial reporter doesn't seem active anymore.
[15:09] <stgraber> - ISO tracker
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Fixed bug 994816
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Implemented new DB schema for qa-q-isotracker-testcases and migration code
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Updated most of the UI to work with the new DB schema
[15:09] <stgraber> - TODO this week
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Try and get the rest of qa-q-isotracker-testcases implemented, then push to http://iso.qa.dev.stgraber.org
[15:09] <stgraber>  - Go through all the UDS notes to extract the work items and update LP
[15:09] <stgraber> (DONE)
[15:10] <ev> infinity: of course I am. I sometimes read his specs to myself as bedtime stories.
[15:10] <ogra_> thats passion !
[15:10] <ev> xnox: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/Doc?docid=0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY&hl=en
[15:10] <ev> xnox: but as cjwatson says, generally overkill
[15:11] <infinity> barry: ?
[15:11] <barry> updated blueprint work items from session notes. merged twisted-{core,bin} from debian; need to merge twisted-{conch,mail,lore,names,news,runner,web,words} dependencies.  gathered some stats for twisted buildbot for python 3. todo: port the launchpadlib stack, follow up on aptdaemon emails.  done.
[15:12] <ev> boo twisted
[15:12] <barry> ;)
[15:12] <ev> ;)
[15:13] <infinity> Agreed.
[15:13] <infinity> Who wants to rewrite lp-buildd in !twisted?
[15:13]  * ev hides, cowers
[15:13] <infinity> (If I do it, it'll be perl)
[15:13] <ogra_> make it shell !
[15:13] <infinity> last week:
[15:13] <infinity>  - UDS
[15:13] <infinity>  - Sick Monday and Tuesday
[15:13] <infinity> upcoming:
[15:13] <infinity>  - Drafting specs
[15:13] <infinity>  - Figuring out armel/armhf toolchain issues
[15:13] <ev> hahahaha, I'll have to make more use of that threat
[15:13] <infinity>  - Pushing some partner stuff out
[15:13] <infinity>  - eglibc SRU
[15:13] <infinity>  - Drugs and naps
[15:13] <stgraber> infinity: let's port it to Go, I hear it's great for that kind of things ;)
[15:13] <infinity> ...
[15:14] <infinity> stgraber: Alright, *stavo.
[15:14] <bdmurray> aught up on email from UDS
[15:14] <bdmurray> review of boot-repair's /etc/default/grub modification code
[15:14] <bdmurray> research into and won't fixing of update-manager bug 997846
[15:14] <bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug regarding collecting LiveMediaBuild
[15:14] <bdmurray> reported bug 993407 regarding install-info and /etc/environment
[15:14] <bdmurray> investigation into update-manager reporting dependency problems - leaving unconfigured bug reports
[15:14] <bdmurray> reported update-manager bug 999890
[15:14] <bdmurray> rewrote harvest-maintainer-script.py to use the launchpad API
[15:14] <bdmurray> modifications to collect-bug-data (part of arsenal) to support ordering and limiting
[15:14] <bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for texinfo bug 993047
[15:14] <bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for resolvconf bug 989585
[15:14] <bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for bug 523896
[15:14] <bdmurray> .done.
[15:15] <xnox> * uds / specs
[15:15] <xnox> - started factoring out work items (in progress)
[15:15] <xnox> * updated `sudo' merge based on slangasek's comments (in progress https://code.launchpad.net/~dmitrij.ledkov/ubuntu/quantal/sudo/merge/+merge/104420)
[15:15] <xnox> * grub2 sru/bugfix (bug #978464, quantal released, sru pending)
[15:15] <xnox> * mdadm bugfix / packaging (bug #942106, cannot reproduce in a VM need
[15:15] <xnox> more realistic hardware)
[15:15] <xnox> * mdadm missing utilities (bug #957494, needs liaising with SpamapS)
[15:15] <xnox> * got in touch with mdadm debian maintainers (one of them is russian
[15:15] <xnox> as well) to understand why udev incremental mdadm assembly was patched
[15:15] <xnox> out. Needs re-enabling in ubuntu.
[15:15] <xnox> * usb-creator wipe all partitions bug (merged a fix, testing with
[15:15] <xnox> sticks locally, bug #484252)
[15:15] <xnox> * arrived from uds on monday, and had monday booked as swap day
[15:15] <xnox> TODO:
[15:15] <xnox> * specs / work items
[15:15] <xnox> * ubiquity planning with cjwatson cryptsetup/raid/lvm
[15:15] <xnox> .done.
[15:16] <jodh> * first day back after UDS (so recovering from ubuflu).
[15:16] <jodh> * catching up on mail.
[15:16] <jodh> * starting blueprint/etherpad trawl to generate workitems.
[15:16] <jodh> * annual review.
[15:16] <jodh> ⑁
[15:17] <cjwatson> stokachu: Anything you'd like to note for this week?  Sorry, kind of sprung this on you :)
[15:17] <stokachu> cjwatson: Probably have some SRU's to post next week (i just created a couple yesterday)
[15:19] <cjwatson> OK - you can keep an eye on how other people are doing status dumps here and work out your own style from that :)
[15:19] <stokachu> I do have a merge proposal that was reviewed by bdmurray https://code.launchpad.net/~adam-stokes/ubuntu/quantal/libgcrypt11/libgcrypt-fix-423252/+merge/105863 that i'd like to get done before i leave on vacation this friday
[15:20] <stokachu> cool yea, seems like everyone is just pasting from a text file?
[15:20] <cjwatson> anyone want to take that?  looks fairly short
[15:20]  * xnox nods.
[15:20] <cjwatson> stokachu: yep
[15:20] <stokachu> ok cool
[15:20] <cjwatson> "here's one I made earlier"
[15:21] <stokachu> if i can get the merge proposal finished I can create SRU's for review next week
[15:22] <cjwatson> I'll have a look after the meeting, then
[15:22] <cjwatson> ev:
[15:22] <infinity> I've got it.
[15:22] <ev> hi, sorry
[15:22] <infinity> Or, rather, I'm already looking.
[15:22] <cjwatson> infinity: oh good, thanks
[15:22] <stokachu> cool thanks
[15:22] <ev> - Short week; UDS through Friday and travel on Sunday/Monday.
[15:22] <ev> - Got all the work items in for all the crash database specs. Still need to
[15:22] <ev>   write additional wiki page specifications where necessary.
[15:22] <ev> - Built a Tarmac bot in the Canonistack (to eventually be replaced with
[15:22] <ev>   james_w's juju charm) for running the whoopsie test suite on approved merge
[15:22] <ev>   proposals and landing the branches.
[15:22] <ev>   
[15:22] <ev>   I'll also set this up for daisy and errors once I set up a more permanent
[15:22] <ev>   Cassandra instance in the Canonistack, or create some magic around juju
[15:22] <ev>   relations as part of the test suite (verify_command =
[15:22] <ev>   CASSANDRA_IP=$(relation-get addr) make check)
[15:22] <ev> - Modified whoopsie to fall back to SHA-512 hashing the MAC address of the
[15:22] <ev>   first non-loopback device when a system UUID is not present.
[15:22] <ev> - Finished charming (ugh) daisy, the backend service to the Ubuntu error
[15:22] <ev>   tracker:
[15:22] <ev>   http://code.launchpad.net/~ev/charms/precise/daisy/trunk
[15:22] <ev> - Started charming (ugh) the retracers. Still need to charm errors.ubuntu.com.
[15:22] <ev> - Created a branch out of my existing Debian packaging and set up a source
[15:22] <ev>   package recipe. This resolves issues I was having in being able to provide
[15:22] <ev>   packages for multiple releases (most of the infrastructure is lucid, but the
[15:22] <ev>   retracers run on precise).
[15:22] <ev> - Started reworking the mean time between failures backend code into a simpler
[15:22] <ev>   "total crashes for the day / total users for the day" chart. Filed an RT for
[15:22] <ev>   the initial deployment.
[15:22] <ev> (done)
[15:23] <cjwatson> Short week: UDS then swapped bank holiday.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Pushed pykde4 the rest of the way up the hill for Python 3: yofel uploaded it.  Uploaded pyicu Python 3 port.  ubiquity will be uploaded shortly once I've had a chance to do a final build test.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Transferring work items into LP and other writeup-related work.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Attempted to get a working setup of the Debian testing migration code for quantal-proposed => quantal.  Somewhat harder than expected so will take a while longer.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Finished off LP branch for per-packageset build scoring (https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/packageset-score/+merge/105915).  Awaiting completion of review.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Working on per-pocket upload permissions.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Switched to new self-service interface for backporters and decommissioned the code supporting the old archive-admin-only interface.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Caught up on miscellaneous archive admin work.
[15:23] <cjwatson> Retesting merges.ubuntu.com to see if it still dies after its firmware upgrade.
[15:23] <cjwatson> To do:
[15:24] <cjwatson>  About to dive into aptdaemon bug 926340.
[15:24] <barry> cjwatson: \o/
[15:24] <cjwatson>  Finish deploying new transition tracker.
[15:24] <cjwatson> ..
[15:24] <cjwatson> #topic Bugs
[15:24] <barry> cjwatson: have you seen glatzor's py3 port of aptdaemon?
[15:25] <cjwatson> bdmurray,stokachu: Anything we need to be caring about urgently, either for 12.04.1 or 12.10?  I haven't seen arsenal reports set up yet (which may well be my fault)
[15:25] <xnox> cjwatson: new transition tracker. Yeah!
[15:25] <cjwatson> barry: Yeah, on my to-do somewhere
[15:25] <barry> cjwatson: i have a stack of replies i owe him on it ;)
[15:25] <barry> xnox: py3 transition tracker ready yet? :)
[15:25] <cjwatson> xnox: got it mostly sorted with Laney at UDS, just need to polish
[15:25] <stokachu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvirt/+bug/520386 - has a MIR(?) Assigned to it with serge hallyn as the owner
[15:26] <bdmurray> cjwatson: I'm a bit confused by bug 998492
[15:26] <xnox> barry: need to identify a few missing packages. then it can go onto new transition tracker ;-)
[15:26] <cjwatson> bdmurray: so am I :)
[15:26] <barry> xnox: awesome, thanks!
[15:26] <bdmurray> I'd thought the work in 922949 was supposed to help with some of this
[15:26] <cjwatson> as you say
[15:27] <stokachu> Here is the MIR for netcf https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netcf/+bug/904014
[15:27] <cjwatson> which I *think* leaves the possibility that something ate it between that check and dpkg looking at it
[15:27] <xnox> bug 922949
[15:27] <cjwatson> oh, no
[15:27] <cjwatson> May 12 16:49:13 ubuntu plugininstall.py: Failed to find package object for /target/var/cache/apt/archives/libreoffice-core_1%3a3.5.3-0ubuntu1_i386.deb: "The cache has no package named 'libreoffice-core:i386'"
[15:27] <cjwatson> So the check got confused and was ineffective ...
[15:27] <cjwatson> doh
[15:28] <cjwatson> bdmurray: I'll take this one for 12.04.1/12.10, it's clearly my fault anyway
[15:28] <bdmurray> okay, thanks
[15:28]  * infinity knee-jerks every time he sees bzip2 fail to unzip something...
[15:28] <cjwatson> stokachu: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mir/+members is the set of people empowered to move that forward
[15:29] <cjwatson> ah, maybe not, since they kicked it back to Serge for some work
[15:29] <stokachu> yea netcf seems to be giving him a lot of trouble
[15:29] <cjwatson> sounds like if you want to start sending patches that'd be welcome
[15:30] <stokachu> cjwatson: ok I was gonna start working on it when my load lightens a bit
[15:30] <stokachu> i was forced to do the windows port at the "other" company
[15:30] <stokachu> :X
[15:30] <cjwatson> I remember doing some libnl3 porting on some packages, though I don't remember whether netcf was one of them
[15:31] <cjwatson> if it was a hacky "build on Ubuntu damnit" patch it might have been me ;-)
[15:31] <stokachu> lol
[15:31] <stokachu> other than that I dont have any major bugs that haven't got attention yet
[15:32] <cjwatson> alrighty
[15:32] <cjwatson> #topic AOB
[15:32] <bdmurray> then I also had a question about bug 999890 - we inadvertenly let a bunch of bugs be reported that we did not want.
[15:32] <cjwatson> ah, too quick
[15:32] <bdmurray> either section is fine ;-)
[15:32] <bdmurray> so the question is what to do about the existing reports that got through
[15:33] <bdmurray> just auto-close them or let them be?
[15:33] <cjwatson> will they always have been accompanied by some other real report?
[15:33] <Laney> ben> we might want to merge with upstream: notably it has support for matching on Suggests/Recomemnds/Enhances/Replaces now, which might be useful. It does IIRC have a new dependency though.
[15:33] <bdmurray> yes, there will be one initial failure and then multiple follow on reports
[15:34] <cjwatson> if so we could close them with an apology for the runaround, a note that the initial failure is the real bug, and saying they can reopen if we got it wrong
[15:34] <bdmurray> I could search for the initial failure and mark the follow ons as dupes but they seems rather complicated.
[15:34] <cjwatson> Laney: let me know in advance of the new dep if possible, since I'll need to run that through RT
[15:34] <Laney> yeah
[15:35] <bdmurray> cjwatson: okay sounds good
[15:35] <cjwatson> maybe link to their +reportedbugs or something
[15:36] <cjwatson> in fact you could point them at https://bugs.launchpad.net/~/+reportedbugs
[15:36] <cjwatson> save looking up their id
[15:36] <cjwatson> anything else?
[15:37] <cjwatson> Bueller?
[15:37] <ev> as mentioned I'll set up tarmac
[15:37] <ev> team-wide
[15:38]  * cjwatson looks forward to fighting with it ;)
[15:38] <cjwatson> cool
[15:38] <ev> :)
[15:38] <cjwatson> ok, thanks all
[15:38] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[15:38] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed May 16 15:38:30 2012 UTC.
[15:38] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-16-15.07.moin.txt
[15:38] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-16-15.07.html
[15:38] <barry> thanks!
[15:38] <ogra_> thanks cjwatson
[15:38] <stgraber> thanks
[15:38] <infinity> \o/
[15:39] <jodh> thanks!
[15:39] <ev> thanks
[15:39]  * xnox 0/ awesome! thank you all =)
[15:39] <stokachu> o/
[15:39] <infinity> stokachu: Updated your merge proposal with a comment, and then fixed it and uploaded, FWIW.
[15:39] <stokachu> infinity: awesome thank you!
[15:41] <stokachu> infinity: i was following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff , should i not include .pc files?
[15:42] <infinity> debdiffs certainly won't include them.
[15:42] <infinity> But branches often do.
[15:42] <infinity> It's likely not your "fault", per se.
[15:42] <infinity> That was a minor nit.
[15:42] <infinity> It's the update-maintainer thing you need to remember in future.
[15:42] <stokachu> gotcha will make sure to include that
[15:43] <stokachu> infinity: if those .pc files aren't a requirement I'll just ignore them on future merge proposals
[15:44] <cjwatson> Well, they do need to end up in the branch as committed
[15:44] <cjwatson> So depends on your attitude to MPs really
[15:44] <stokachu> ah, seems like there are at least 2 ways to get things merged with either debdiff or merge proposal
[15:44] <infinity> Then I contend that the branch was partially broken already. :P
[15:45] <stokachu> i'd rather do whatever is easiest for the reviewer
[15:45] <infinity> Since the MP was creating a file in .pc that already existed.
[15:45] <infinity> stokachu: Do whatever you're most comfy with, every reviewer is different.
[15:45] <stokachu> ok :)
[15:45] <infinity> stokachu: I prefer straight patches and debdiffs, others prefer MPs, others prefer carrier pigeons and tiny magnets.  Whatever.
[15:46] <stokachu> haha sounds good
[15:47] <infinity> (I tend to just cheat and download the diff from the MP anyway, apply it locally, make sute I get a sane/clean debdiff, upload, and mark the MP "merged" without actually merging it, and let the importer sort it out... This likely makes me a Bad Person)
[15:49] <stokachu> you should end that workflow with a *FLeX*
[20:03] <m0ergaes> So, are there any Lubuntu-people here?
[20:03] <wxl> o/
[20:03] <nothingspecial> o/
[20:03]  * MrChrisDruif lurks
[20:04]  * bodhi_zazen lurks
[20:04] <jmarsden|work> o/
[20:04] <bioterror> o/
[20:05] <m0ergaes> On the mailing list it was suggested to try to meet tonight
[20:05] <m0ergaes> having a meeting without agenda
[20:05] <StephenSmally> o/
[20:05] <jmarsden|work> "tonight" is unclear different people are in different time zones ... 08:00 UTC was suggested, I think?
[20:05] <m0ergaes> to see if we could unite the forces
[20:05] <nothingspecial> Is there any member of the lubuntu team that would like to chair this meeting
[20:06] <StephenSmally> i would, but i think i have only twenty minutes
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> I'll volunteer if there is no objection from anyone
[20:06] <m0ergaes> Please do!
[20:06] <MrChrisDruif> m0ergaes; if you want logs, use #startmeeting
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> #startmeeting
[20:06] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed May 16 20:06:49 2012 UTC.  The chair is jmarsden|work. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:06] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[20:06] <StephenSmally> ok
[20:07] <jmarsden|work> OK, so we need to figure out some sort of future direction, and we need a new wiki champion, as I understand it.
[20:07] <jmarsden|work> #topic wiki champion
[20:08] <jmarsden|work> Anyone know of any volunteers for that role so far?
[20:09] <jmarsden|work> OK.  So all we can do for now is make the need known.
[20:09] <bodhi_zazen> amjjawad might be a great person to do this , he is not available until after at least June 1st
[20:09] <jmarsden|work> #action jmarsden|work to email the list asking for volunteer wiki champions
[20:09] <meetingology> ACTION: jmarsden|work to email the list asking for volunteer wiki champions
[20:09] <StephenSmally> Well, i think we should have at leats three teams: Wiki team, Devel team and Art team
[20:09] <StephenSmally> *least
[20:10] <StephenSmally> Each team should have a "center" person
[20:10] <Unit193> amjjawad has said that he doesn't like wikis, and doesn't understand them though.
[20:10] <will_> Wiki, or "Docs"?
[20:10] <bodhi_zazen> Yea, but, I have spoken with him more recently, and there are ways to support him
[20:10] <nothingspecial> There are forum staff waiting to help with moving any documentation currently on the forums to the wiki http://bodhizazen.net/tweaks/ubforums2ubwiki.sh.txt
[20:10] <bodhi_zazen> http://bodhizazen.net/tweaks/ubforums2ubwiki.sh.txt
[20:10] <bodhi_zazen> script to convert forums posts -> wiki syntax
[20:11] <bodhi_zazen> script works well, has been tested
[20:12] <jmarsden|work> Sounds like we can let the wiki champion opening go until at least June 1st so amjjawad can provide his input on the subject.
[20:12] <jmarsden|work> Moving on to the more general issue...
[20:12] <jmarsden|work> #topic future direction
[20:12] <StephenSmally> Guys, i know everyone wants to do something for lubuntu, but IMHO the organization is not clear
[20:13] <StephenSmally> Is not clear who and how much are the developers
[20:13] <StephenSmally> The art team seems is made by rafael only
[20:13] <bodhi_zazen> o/
[20:13] <StephenSmally> yes?
[20:14] <bodhi_zazen> I suggest you encourage community members to be more actively involved
[20:14] <wxl> someone correct me if i'm wrong but isn't julien still developing? just not going to be relaly involved in any sort of communications?
[20:14] <bodhi_zazen> julien is developing
[20:14] <bodhi_zazen> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lubuntu-users/2012-May/001516.html
[20:15] <StephenSmally> Ok, but Julien is not the only developer...
[20:15] <jmarsden|work> Correct.  And I'm here too, not that I have done a lot of development/packaging recently, but I have not gone away :)
[20:16] <jmarsden|work> Officially the lubuntu-dev membership can be seen at https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+members#active
[20:16] <bodhi_zazen> 3 developers , or am I reading that wrong ?
[20:16] <jmarsden|work> Right.
[20:16] <StephenSmally> yes, plus the Lsc team
[20:17] <wxl> considering so much is upstream i don't see that as disporportionate
[20:17] <StephenSmally> which counts 5 member
[20:17] <StephenSmally> IMO is disproporzionate
[20:18] <StephenSmally> the problem is that each developer cares about his code
[20:18] <StephenSmally> for example pcman fix pcmanfm bugs (which is good, don't misunderstand me)
[20:19] <StephenSmally> but we don't have a real team behavior
[20:19] <nothingspecial> so we come back to encouraging the community to be more actively involved
[20:19] <nothingspecial> ?
[20:19] <bodhi_zazen> +1 nothingspecial
[20:19] <wxl> encouraging them to be devs will require training
[20:19] <wxl> i'd even like to contribute as a dev but don't feel that i have a good background to do so
[20:20] <bodhi_zazen> training or reading
[20:20] <nothingspecial> or mentoring?
[20:20] <wxl> any and all but should be clear how to do it
[20:20] <jmarsden|work> Learning, not necessarily training... self-study works too.  How you get the skills is less important than having them.
[20:20] <bodhi_zazen> mentoring with expected reading ;p
[20:20] <StephenSmally> I think that if we organize the teams better, we would be able to get more volunteers
[20:21] <StephenSmally> I mean, if a volunteer don't know who talk to to  know how to fix a bug, he won't fix it
[20:21] <StephenSmally> (poor example, i admit)
[20:21] <bodhi_zazen> communication helps
[20:22] <nothingspecial> across the community
[20:22] <wxl> +1 StephenSmally
[20:22] <bodhi_zazen> rewarding those who contribute, with training / education helps
[20:23] <jmarsden|work> StephenSmally: Do you have specific suggestions for how to "organize the teams better"?  Either now, or can you write up your ideas and email the list, or put them on a wiki page, or whatever works to get them documented somewhere?
[20:23] <StephenSmally> i will write something on the mailing list
[20:23] <jmarsden|work> Great, thanks.
[20:23] <bodhi_zazen> You can not expect someone to spend 6 hours reading, and 10 hours coding, without some payoff
[20:24] <bodhi_zazen> developers willing to review code, mentor a little goes a long way
[20:24] <jmarsden|work> #action StephenSmally  to write up ideas for improved team organization and email the lubuntu-users mailing list
[20:24] <meetingology> ACTION: StephenSmally  to write up ideas for improved team organization and email the lubuntu-users mailing list
[20:24] <bodhi_zazen> And you can not expect community without developers talking with users
[20:24] <StephenSmally> bodhi_zazen, what you mean with payoff?
[20:24] <nothingspecial> inviting people, encouraging participation, keeping the dialogue going
[20:24] <bodhi_zazen> What are you going to do to motivate volunteers to donate hours of their time developing ?
[20:25] <StephenSmally> There are no way you can motivate somebody
[20:25] <StephenSmally> (IMO)
[20:25] <bodhi_zazen> yes and no
[20:25] <bodhi_zazen> you can discourage them
[20:25] <wxl> bodhi_zazen: i imagine that julien will still to some degree talk to users
[20:25] <bodhi_zazen> volunteers leave if they feel they have no voice
[20:25] <wxl> but will likely do it through bug reports
[20:26] <will_> Is there a backlog of development work?
[20:26] <StephenSmally> will_, not really, or i don't know it
[20:26] <wxl> everyone's motivated by different things
[20:26] <jmarsden|work> There's always bug fixes and proposed enhancements, ... to LXDE components and to pcmanfm in particular
[20:26] <wxl> some people are motivated by money, others egalitarianism, e.g.
[20:27] <will_> jmarsden|work: is that listed anywhere? Like a Bugzilla report? I think that would be helpful to list somewhere on the Dev wikipage
[20:27] <wxl> i suspect that there are plenty of people who would love to code but don't know where to start
[20:27] <nothingspecial> wxl: collaboration is the key
[20:27] <StephenSmally> Also, another problem for developers is that LXDE is currently hosted on git
[20:27] <wxl> i think if we had some sort of even informal mentoring program that would encourage a lot of people
[20:27] <StephenSmally> but a lot of lubuntu programs are hosted on launchpad
[20:28] <wxl> StephenSmally: THAT is a problem. what would it take to move it?
[20:28] <wxl> will_: if i remember correctly there's a todo list on the wiki, but i haven't looked in a while. that would be the logical place for it in any case. that or maybe lubuntu.
[20:29] <wxl> s/lubuntu/launchpad/
[20:29] <will_> ah ok.
[20:29] <StephenSmally> I think launchpad is more developer-oriented, you can have mailing lists, teams and so
[20:29] <jmarsden|work> StephenSmally: why is using git a problem for developers?  It works for me :)
[20:29] <wxl> but i think we're talking about a developer todo list, StephenSmally
[20:30] <StephenSmally> jmarsden|work, I mean, the incosistency between git and bazaar
[20:30] <bodhi_zazen> wiki.ubuntu.com for teams
[20:30] <Unit193> And, for example, other DE's for Ubuntu flavors aren't on LP.
[20:30] <jmarsden|work> StephenSmally: Just one more version control system... not a major obstacle, IMO.
[20:31] <wxl> one thing that seems important to deal with: i think julian was a coordinator for devs and now he's taking the role of contributor, which is fine, but who's going to take care of coordinating? who's going to take care of the dev wiki?
[20:31] <nothingspecial> I wonder why we are talking about development and not about the team/community, which as far as I can tell seems to be the issue
[20:32] <kanliot> the dev team can decide about the dev wiki
[20:32] <jmarsden|work> wxl: If it needs it and Julien no longer wants to do so, I can take care of the dev related wiki pages.
[20:32] <wxl> well i think honestly it's all very important, nothingspecial. the reason why making sure we've got the development covered is because otherwise we beocme stale and outdated.
[20:32] <jmarsden|work> The developmebt TODO list is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO
[20:33] <nothingspecial> thanks wxl
[20:33] <will_> jmarsden|work: Thanks!
[20:33] <wxl> i think, though, that we need a good head for wiki and-- i think-- support, too
[20:34] <kanliot> i'll do wiki if chris is sure hes done
[20:34] <jmarsden|work> wxl: Agreed in principle, but specifics on that need to wait until amjjawad has a chance to give us his input
[20:34] <wxl> jmarsden|work: ok :)
[20:35] <jmarsden|work> kanliot: OK, our first volunteer for new wiki champion... thanks for offering.  Feel fre to confirm with Chris by private email that he is "really done" if you are concerned about accidentally "stepping on his toes".
[20:35] <kanliot> k jmarsden|work
[20:36] <jmarsden|work> #topic any other business
[20:36] <wxl> if someone is needed for support, i'd help, too. i'm a bit tentative. life suddenly flares up and gets busy for me from time to time, but if there's no one else, i'm game.
[20:36] <jmarsden|work> OK, is there anything else we need to discuss today?
[20:36] <MrChrisDruif> I've got very small toes
[20:36] <nothingspecial> I am here to work with both wiki and support with the forums
[20:36] <kanliot> lol
[20:36] <nothingspecial> any team really
[20:37] <jmarsden|work> Ok... sounds like we are done for today.  Thanks everyone, we will meet again same time same place next week.
[20:37] <jmarsden|work> #endmeeting
[20:37] <wxl> thx all for your hard work
[20:37] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed May 16 20:37:55 2012 UTC.
[20:37] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-16-20.06.moin.txt
[20:37] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-16-20.06.html
[20:38] <Unit193> jmarsden|work: Thanks for being here and charing.
[20:38] <wxl> ^ what he said
[20:38] <m0ergaes> Bye!
[20:38] <jmarsden|work> Unit193: You're welcome... it needed doing, and I thought I might need to step up and do it... bye all