[00:01] <pleia2> bramwelt: sorry for the delay in mirror thing, the Ubuntu Developer Summit was last week so I've been pretty snowed under (and so has everyone I've tried to talk to :)), we do appreciate the offer and I hope to have a response soon
[00:03] <knome> hey pleia2 - the new plugin is in at xubuntu.org, so people on -team can now edit all not-yet-published posts and pages as well as upload images
[00:04] <pleia2> sweet
[00:05] <knome> got to sleep
[00:05] <knome> catch you later
[00:31] <bramwelt> pleia2: No worries, we just want to help you guys out! I appreciate you getting back to me, and I completely understand being overloaded. Thanks for the help! :)
[07:23] <laite> ochosi: \o/
[07:23] <ochosi> laite: welcome! :)
[07:23] <baizon> =)
[07:23] <Unit193> Heyho.
[07:23] <laite> thanks
[07:23] <baizon> o/
[07:24] <ochosi> laite: we're currently putting together our roadmap for xubuntu 12.10
[07:24] <laite> ok
[07:24] <ochosi> this is kinda instructive: http://xubuntu.org/news/brainstorming-the-12-10-release/
[07:24] <ochosi> you can easily see in the graph how our release process works
[07:25] <ochosi> currently we're in the "roadmap brainstorming > finding assignee" part
[07:25] <ochosi> you can also check the link to the actual roadmap to see what has been added there so far
[07:26] <ochosi> we're a pretty small team, so there aren't too many items
[07:28] <laite> I've actually begin to think about getting more involved with distro developing, as it's nice to give something back :)
[07:28] <ochosi> cool
[07:28] <ochosi> what kind of contributions would you be interested in?
[07:30] <laite> Well, I'm not much of an artis but I could help with theming if needed
[07:31] <ochosi> oh yes :)
[07:31] <laite> I really don't know what kind of tasks are involved in xubuntu
[07:31] <ochosi> that would in fact be swell
[07:31] <laite> I mean, how much come straight from ubuntu
[07:31] <ochosi> most of it
[07:31] <ochosi> the xfce part mostly comes straight from debian
[07:32] <ochosi> then there is a small group of packages that we touch a lot ourselves
[07:32] <ochosi> much of that is artwork
[07:32] <ochosi> and settings
[07:32] <ochosi> (and a few distro-specific patches)
[07:32] <ochosi> but generally we try to keep the delta with debian/upstream at a minimum
[07:32] <laite> Right
[07:32] <laite> I guess xfce 4.10 is coming to 12.10?
[07:33] <ochosi> yeah, there is a ppa for 12.04 though
[07:33] <ochosi> and it works really well, for as much as i've tested/used it so far
[07:33] <laite> nice
[07:33] <ochosi> yup, thank mr_pouit ;)
[07:34] <ochosi> he and micahg are doing the packaging for xubuntu
[07:34] <laite> I gotta take a better look at roadmap a bit later, but I'll start idling here in the meanwhile =)
[07:34] <ochosi> ok cool
[07:34] <ochosi> if you need any pointers always feel free to ping me
[07:35] <ochosi> i'm (remotely) always here, if i'm away i'll read the backlog and reply when you're back
[07:59] <baizon> ochosi: the window border is broken
[08:02] <baizon> http://i.imgur.com/keVKC.png
[08:04] <ochosi> baizon: you have to switch the window-manager theme to blackbird as well
[08:04] <ochosi> you're obviously still using greybird there...
[08:05] <baizon> a ok
[08:05] <ochosi> actually the same is true for notifications, but i haven't changed them yet
[08:05] <ochosi> so they're the same in blackbird and greybird
[08:06] <ochosi> (considering to make them bright in blackbird though)
[08:06] <baizon> ok there is one thing i dont liek
[08:06] <baizon> like
[08:07] <ochosi> yup?
[08:07] <baizon> http://imgur.com/GI6N2
[08:07] <baizon> when you select an item it is too dark
[08:07] <baizon> imo
[08:09] <ochosi> you mean in the new settings-manager?
[08:09] <baizon> yes
[08:09] <ochosi> yes, i agree, i haven't found time to fix that yet
[08:09] <baizon> and update manager is broken
[08:10] <baizon> the font color
[08:10] <ochosi> update-manager is gtk3
[08:10] <ochosi> i haven't really touched gtk3 yet
[08:10] <baizon> ok
[08:10] <ochosi> if you have the time/energy, put your current issues on a list somewhere
[08:10] <ochosi> maybe a piratepad or something we can follow up on
[08:11] <baizon> ok
[08:15] <ochosi> bbl
[08:19] <laite> one thing I would really like to see in Xubuntu 12.10 is a proper dual monitor-setup GUI - that caused me some problems before I learned how to set it up
[08:19] <laite> does xfce 4.10 have anything better that 4.8?
[08:20] <baizon> laite, arandr
[08:21] <laite> baizon: yep, but imho it should be installed by default
[08:22] <baizon> laite: it will be
[08:22] <laite> great :)
[08:22] <baizon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
[08:49] <ochosi> i'm working on a better display-dialog with mr_pouit 
[08:49] <ochosi> see here: https://wiki.xfce.org/design/xfce4-settings/display
[08:50] <ochosi> laite, baizon ^
[08:50] <ochosi> input is appreciated
[08:50] <baizon> omg
[08:50] <baizon> very nice
[08:51] <baizon> planned for 4.12? 
[08:52] <baizon> the 1. mockup looks better imo
[08:53] <ochosi> i guess
[08:53] <ochosi> well yes, but it's also far more complex to implement
[08:53] <baizon> yes, because of the preview 
[08:54] <ochosi> hopefully much of that can be taken from ristretto's wallpaper-dialog
[09:06] <laite> ochosi: looks really nice
[09:07] <knome> baizon, again, please note that things on the roadmap doesn't mean they will be included.
[09:07] <baizon> knome: i know :(
[09:07] <baizon> im sorry
[09:07] <knome> baizon, i told you this once, please try to remember
[09:07] <baizon> will do :)
[09:07] <knome> thanks
[09:07] <baizon> i promise
[09:07] <knome> it just confuses people..
[09:11] <baizon> yes, your right
[09:13] <baizon> hmm, ochosi blackbird is problematic with libreoffice, its hard to recognize the top icons 
[09:13] <ochosi> baizon: i know, it's also problematic with some qt apps
[09:13] <ochosi> not sure whether that's fixable
[09:13] <baizon> ok
[09:13] <baizon> but the window border are awesome
[09:13] <ochosi> thanks :)
[09:13] <baizon> will use them as default from now on
[09:14] <laite> about the terminal theme: I find it a bit odd to have gray background, black is so much more 'traditional'
[09:14] <ochosi> laite: it's supposed to create a flat terminal in combination with greybird
[09:21] <mr_pouit> ochosi: yeah, 1 is better, but I don't know gtk/cairo enough to do it (volunteers welcome :P)
[09:21] <ochosi> mr_pouit: check ristretto
[09:22] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i mean specifically the wallpaper-dialog, pretty much all you need is there i think
[09:22] <ochosi> it even adjusts the ratio of the rectangles to the screen resolutions
[09:23] <ochosi> baizon: mind to post a screenshot of your libreoffice problems?
[09:24] <baizon> ochosi: yep
[09:24] <baizon> ochosi: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cwT-kuOe3Lxxam0peOMi2enZdgKYZqlWV_pIsKkiFS4/edit
[09:25] <ochosi> baizon: which ones are hard to see? the greyed-out ones?
[09:25] <baizon> yes
[09:25] <baizon> at the bottom
[09:26] <ochosi> ah, in that case you should specify that you mean the statusbar
[09:26] <ochosi> and it's in fact the text that isn't readable
[09:26] <ochosi> not the icons
[09:27] <baizon> done
[09:28] <ochosi> mind to make that doc open so i can edit as well?
[09:28] <baizon> ochosi: yep will do, sec
[09:28] <baizon> done
[09:30] <baizon> ok, alacarte isnt working with xfce 4.10 :(
[09:31] <mr_pouit> what's the issue?
[09:31] <mr_pouit> (also check that you have the latest xfce4-session from the ppa~)
[09:31] <baizon> when i try to add an item it crashes
[09:32] <baizon> mr_pouit: yes i have
[09:32] <baizon> but i'll check right away
[09:34] <baizon> hmm your right
[09:34] <baizon> got the old one
[09:35] <mr_pouit> I updated it this morning, so that's not surprising ;-)
[09:36] <baizon> ok
[09:40] <baizon> ochosi: added an example
[09:41] <baizon> btw. the font is broken within USC
[09:42] <ochosi> USC is also gtk3
[09:43] <ochosi> you have to check the gtk-version for the apps, otherwise adding bugs doesn't make sense
[09:43] <baizon> ochosi: yes yes i know, thats why i just added "an example", not a new bug
[09:43] <ochosi> oh, ok
[09:45] <baizon> brb restart
[09:50] <baizon> yep working again
[09:50] <baizon> thanks mr_pouit 
[09:51] <baizon> not perfect, but working
[10:06] <baizon> hmm
[10:07] <baizon> mtpaint isnt bad
[10:14] <baizon> but no 3.40 version
[12:44] <laite> ochosi: I've been reading all things concerning xubuntu-developing, roadmap etc. but I'm not really sure what I could do to help ...I mean, it is already an excellent distro :)
[12:45] <ochosi> laite: ooh, there are _so_ many projects in my head
[12:45] <laite> =)
[12:45] <ochosi> also, if you want to help with artwork, you're always more than welcome
[12:46] <ochosi> and bugfixing/testing or writing docs is also an endless task
[12:46] <laite> I guess from earlier in channel you're building new, dark theme for xubuntu
[12:46] <ochosi> yup
[12:46] <ochosi> won't be default, but yeah, i'm workin on it
[12:46] <laite> Btw, I gotta say that xubuntu is one of the most beautiful distros I've tried
[12:47] <ochosi> thanks :)
[12:47] <laite> good work
[12:47] <ochosi> if you wanna take a look at the dark theme (it's WIP), you can find it here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Blackbird
[12:48] <laite> I installed xfce 4.10 and it's really nice
[12:48] <laite> gotta love that new application launcher
[12:49] <ochosi> yup, it's great
[12:49] <ochosi> also the new settings-manager
[12:49] <ochosi> it's so easy now to plug in external dialogs/launchers
[12:50] <laite> is 'selected item' going to be that light blue in final blackbird
[12:50] <laite> it's a bit light for my taste
[12:51] <ochosi> well that's the current plan
[12:51] <laite> other than that, looks really good
[12:51] <laite> k
[12:51] <ochosi> ah, colors aren't finalized, if you mean that
[12:51] <laite> yes
[12:51] <ochosi> atm these are "general directions"
[12:51] <ochosi> a starting point
[12:52] <laite> It's a bit inconvinient that one has to change appearance and window title from different places, but I can see why they are grouped like that in xfce
[12:53] <laite> I've been using bluebird since installing xubuntu, it's somehow refreshing theme =)
[12:54] <ochosi> actually there is already a branch in xfce-git with these dialogs merged
[12:54] <ochosi> i mean a real "appearance" dialog that has gtk-theme, icons and wm-theme
[12:54] <ochosi> it wasn't finished in time for 4.10
[12:55] <laite> oh, that would be welcome
[12:55] <ochosi> laite: if you wanna work on bluebird btw, that'd be great
[12:55] <ochosi> i haven't had enough time to take good enough care of it
[12:55] <ochosi> (the gtk3 port is somewhat sloppy)
[12:55] <laite> sure, I could do that
[12:56] <ochosi> cool
[12:56] <laite> Is the purpose of gtk3 to mimic gtk2 as well as possible?
[12:56] <ochosi> yes, i'd say so
[12:56] <ochosi> but you can also fiddle with the gtk2 if you want
[12:56] <ochosi> i don't see myself having enough time to work on bluebird for real in the future
[12:58] <laite> do you have recommendations with testing/modifying themes, applications-wise etc.
[13:03] <ochosi> laite: hmm, what do you mean exactly?
[13:04] <laite> for example something that'll show all gtk-elements for selected theme etc., preferably for both gtk2/3
[13:04] <ochosi> oh right
[13:04] <ochosi> well there is "the-widget-factory"
[13:04] <ochosi> you can find a gtk3 version on launchpad or elsewhere
[13:04] <ochosi> and you can install the gtk2 version from the repos
[13:04] <ochosi> be aware though that the gtk3 version doesn't show all widgets
[13:04] <ochosi> (at least most likely)
[13:04] <ochosi> the gtk-switch usually isn't there
[13:04] <laite> Cool, thanks
[13:05] <ochosi> and: there are lots of special cases that you can't see with twf
[13:06] <ochosi> you might also wanna take a look at gtkparasite
[13:06] <ochosi> there's a gtk2 version and i think the gtk3 version is in progress
[13:06] <ochosi> on github
[13:06] <ochosi> with gtkparasite you can find out widget-names and hierarchies
[13:06] <baizon> canonical should switch to git :)
[13:06] <ochosi> especially useful if _one_ app is borked
[13:06] <ochosi> or for application specific theming
[13:07] <laite> aww, I love gtkparasite already
[13:07] <laite> so cute
[13:08] <ochosi> hehe
[13:08] <ochosi> yeah
[13:08] <ochosi> and practical
[13:08] <ochosi> very practical
[13:10] <ochosi> ok, i gotta go home now, be back in ~2hrs
[14:38] <GridCube> knome, ping
[14:45] <laite> ochosi: have you tried awf (A Widget factory), it can show both gtk2 and gtk3 in separate windows and select theme from menu: https://github.com/valr/awf
[15:32] <ochosi> laite: no, i haven't, sounds promising!
[15:37] <ochosi> laite: cool, i just installed the oneiric-package in precise, works great
[15:37] <ochosi> i'll copy that package to the shimmer ppa for ease of installation
[17:09] <laite> ochosi: I'm thinking of changing Bluebird's close-button to simple cross like in graybird, do you have any objections?
[17:09] <laite> instead of 'cross within a filled circle'
[17:10] <ochosi> don't think i have objections, no
[17:10] <ochosi> bbl
[19:07] <bluesabre> knome: I think I saw that Ubuntu Q is going to try to ship python3 only.  Are there similar plans for Xubuntu?
[19:12] <micahg> no
[19:12] <micahg> unless I missed a blueprint :)
[19:14] <bluesabre> I didn't think there were, just checking
[19:14] <micahg> it'll be enough work to get transitioned to 4.10 and maybe a gtk3 panel
[19:15] <bluesabre> Understandably
[19:30] <ochosi> laite: i guess you need commit/push rights to bluebird-github
[19:32] <ochosi> laite: you're now in the bluebird-group so you can push to that repo. would be nice if you develop in branches, so we can review and then merge the stuff
[19:32] <ochosi> bbl
[19:43] <laite> ochosi: ok, thanks - just to be sure, I should create a new branch in shimmerproject/Bluebird where I push my modifications?
[21:01] <GridCube> knome, ping
[21:21]  * scott-work is wondering what work awaits the ubuntu studio team for xfce 4.10 and gtk3  Oo
[21:25] <micahg> scott-work: you'll get most of it for free
[21:26] <micahg> scott-work: and if you can point out any duplicated effort you need that shouldn't exist, we can try to consolidate it
[21:26] <scott-work> micahg: defintely! (point out duplicate effort and try to consolidate)
[21:27] <scott-work> micahg: the email between you and alessio for backporting has been very intriguing, the backport tools have greatly improved
[21:31] <scott-work> going home :)
[22:30] <ochosi> laite: yup, something like that
[22:35] <ochosi> GridCube: i think knome is away till friday or so
[22:36] <GridCube> oh
[22:36] <GridCube> :(
[22:36] <ochosi> at least iirc
[22:36] <GridCube> i have a website questioning
[22:36] <ochosi> what kind of?
[22:37] <GridCube> i have to include images on the tutorial im making and i dont know how to do it properly
[22:37] <GridCube> they are A LOT of screenshots
[22:37] <ochosi> do you want a gallery with next|previous buttons or just post them in a row?
[22:39] <GridCube> i dont know
[22:48] <ochosi> but is it for the xubuntu site or somewhere else?
[22:48] <ochosi> for the x.org there should be a plugin that does the slideshow (like on the frontpage)
[22:48] <ochosi> haven't looked into it though
[22:55] <GridCube> ochosi, is for the xubuntu.org
[22:55] <ochosi> well anyway, friday is not that late, maybe best to wait for knome :)
[22:56] <pleia2> GridCube: slide show like on the current front page?
[22:57] <GridCube> prolly
[22:57] <pleia2> that one is knome's photoslider plugin: https://github.com/knomepasi/WordPress-plugins/tree/master/photoslider
[22:57] <GridCube> or maybe i should add an image after each point
[22:58] <GridCube> thats what i wanted to ask knome 
[22:58] <pleia2> is this for an article, or..?
[22:58] <GridCube> an article, the alternate ISO installing guide
[22:58] <pleia2> ah, gotcha
[22:58] <pleia2> is it a lot different from the ubuntu one?
[22:59] <GridCube> i don't think so
[22:59] <GridCube> no
[22:59] <pleia2> why have our own docs for it?
[22:59] <GridCube> http://xubuntu.org/?p=1165&preview=true
[22:59] <GridCube> what?
[23:00] <pleia2> I'm wondering why we'd want to write our own alternate install directions if it's similar to the existing ones for Ubuntu (and Debian)
[23:00] <GridCube> oh
[23:00] <GridCube> i don't know
[23:00] <GridCube> i never found one that was good enough
[23:00] <pleia2> seems like the time is better spent contributing to the wider docs
[23:00] <GridCube> :P
[23:01] <ochosi> well, if GridCube has already done it then i don't see any harm putting this up
[23:01] <pleia2> and they are working next cycle to do away with the alternate installer entirely, bundling an ncurses one into the regular CD
[23:01] <GridCube> D:
[23:02] <pleia2> (it's a real pain to spin up and maintain whole separate isos just for a separate ncurses installer)
[23:03] <pleia2> ochosi: yeah, I'm just wondering if it would be better on help.ubuntu.com/community/
[23:03] <ochosi> pleia2: hmm, i agree
[23:04] <pleia2> and maybe add a https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall/Xubuntu too while we're at it (Kubuntu has one!)
[23:04] <GridCube> :P yes i understand
[23:04] <pleia2> GridCube: sorry, I don't mean to be discouraging, just want to make sure our docs and help resources don't end up getting all scattered like our dev-wiki-website stuff has
[23:05] <GridCube> :)
[23:05] <GridCube> ok
[23:05] <pleia2> half on the website, half on the wiki, no one can ever find anything ;)
[23:05] <GridCube> im not discouraged
[23:05] <GridCube> i do think stuff should be on the help 
[23:05] <pleia2> maybe put it on help.ubuntu.com and then do an article on the website advertising that it's now there and updated?
[23:06] <pleia2> I can help write a GraphicalInstall/Xubuntu too so we can announce both!
[23:09] <pleia2> docs improvements are on our roadmap this cycle, we should probably be fleshing out a comprehensive strategy for all this (maybe someone is, I don't really know all that much about how xubuntu docs are managed :))
[23:10] <GridCube> :)
[23:20] <ochosi> pleia2: hummyeah, thing is, xfce-docs are now online-only
[23:21] <ochosi> so either we pull their wiki into an offline resource or help will only be available for those with internet access
[23:21] <ochosi> (not sure about the size of the wiki btw)
[23:48] <pleia2> http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-xubuntu-12.04 is interesting (adds a bunch of tools to make it a "full-fledged replacement for a Windows desktop")