/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/17/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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Emerlingplease i need mootobot or meetingology  bot in #ubuntu-ve channel How i can put  in #ubuntu-ve channel??03:34
Emerlingexquisme my English03:34
n0rmanEmerling: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology03:39
n0rmanEmerling: and http://ubottu.com/03:40
Emerlingthanks n0rman03:42
Emerlingi see,. i reading meetingology  wiki but no see how put into my  loco team channel03:43
tumbleweedask meetingology's owner03:43
n0rmanEmerling: in the sencond page, you need to go to #ubuntu-irc03:44
Emerlingok03:44
Emerlingthnaks03:45
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czajkowskipleia2: beuno ping17:08
beunoczajkowski, on an interview call, sorry  :(17:08
* pleia2 waves17:08
czajkowskijust trying to round up folks for the CC meeting17:08
czajkowskionly 2 of us?17:08
czajkowskihmmm17:08
czajkowskiless than good17:08
mdzcjwatson and I are around for the TB catch-up17:09
pleia2great17:09
czajkowskiok just you and me pleia217:10
czajkowski#startmeeting17:10
meetingologyMeeting started Thu May 17 17:10:26 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:10
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired17:10
pleia2week after UDS is always hard17:10
czajkowski#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgendatodays agenda17:10
czajkowski#topic TB Catch up17:10
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: TB Catch up
pleia2#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda17:11
pleia2(just cleaning up the link for minutes :))17:11
czajkowskimdz: cjwatson thanks for coming along17:11
czajkowskipleia2: thank you17:11
pleia2mdz, cjohnston, this is just a quick status check, how are things doing? any concerns?17:12
mdzpleia2, there are a few things worth discussing I think17:13
mdzfirst the administrative17:13
mdzwe seem to have had quite some difficulty scheduling meetings lately17:13
pleia2oops, s/cjohnston/cjwatson17:14
mdznot with attendance per se, but with people having different ideas of when the meeting was scheduled17:14
mdzdue to there being multiple resources for that17:14
pleia2yeah, so there is the wiki, fridge calendar17:14
czajkowskimdz: nods, always hard.17:14
mdzthere's also a Canonical calendar17:14
czajkowskimdz: could the person who's due to chair send out a a day before reminder so people remember to turn up?17:15
mdzand sometimes any two of them may disagree, and it's frustrating for folks who have adapted their schedules to attend meetings in the evenings etc.17:15
mdzczajkowski, yes, but that just creates one MORE place where the meeting time is recorded :-)17:15
pleia2since the TB isn't all Canonical, and we want to encourage community to see what happens at these meetings, should probably make sure wiki and fridge agree and go with that as the canonical calendar (er, little "c" canonical :))17:15
mdzis it the time in the email? or what the calendar says?17:15
mdzI wondered what other teams are doing, and whether we could simplify to only ONE authoritative schedule17:16
mdzwhether that's the fridge calendar, or something else17:16
mdzand remove the others so there's no misunderstanding17:16
pleia2yeah17:16
mdzhistorically, this was problematic for various reasons17:16
pleia2fridge is what the community largely uses17:16
mdze.g. google calendar losing its mind on DST changes17:16
mdzor the right people not having access to change it17:17
cjwatsonI'm in principle here, but may have to leave at mid-meeting as I'm approaching EOD17:17
pleia2I'd suggest adding the time as reykjavik, iceland - always UTC, no DST17:17
* stgraber waves (in the middle of something but on IRC if needed)17:17
cjwatsonthe other people in this case was me not moderating list mail until late, but that was just a screw-up, I did at least barely remember in time17:17
cjwatsons/people/problem/17:17
czajkowskimdz: possibly just the fridge and then if people want to add an ical feed for their own use fine, but the fridge would always be right17:18
cjwatsonI think just the fridge is fine as long as we agree; didn't that use to be synced from google calendar?17:18
pleia2fridge is a google calendar17:18
mdzaccording to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar the recommended approach is to create the event on your own calendar, and invite the fridge to it17:19
pleia2and if any changes are ever needed and don't show up, you just swing by #ubuntu-news and give us a nudge17:19
pleia2mdz: yeah, you can also ask the news team directly to add stuff17:19
mdzOK, I'll do that then17:19
pleia2great17:19
mdzsecond topic is a small governance thing17:20
mdzI'm listed as the "chair" of the TB, and have been since approximately the dawn of time17:20
mdzbut AFAIK that role is completely undefined, and I don't think it exists in practice17:20
cjwatsonin practice we rotate chairship from meeting to meeting17:21
mdzin terms of the meeting chair, yes17:21
mdzand I don't think there's a need for any other kind of chair17:21
mdzall of the members of the TB are (should be) in equal standing17:21
czajkowskinods17:21
czajkowskithat's how I saw it at least from the outside17:21
mdzhow would we go about making that official?17:22
pleia2on the CC the Chair is responsible for tie-breaking17:22
cjwatsonWhere's that documented for the TB?  Just the wiki and maybe a copy on the website?17:22
pleia2I think there is a wiki page somewhere outlining this, but I'm having trouble finding it17:22
cjwatsonI believe our official tie-break procedure is to invoke sabdfl; I can't recall ever needing it17:23
czajkowskipleia2: ah I assumed on the CC as we rotate the chair, it was equal standing only sabdfl had tie-breaking17:23
mdzcjwatson, yes and yes17:23
pleia2czajkowski: that's meeting chair, this is full council chair (sabdfl is ours)17:23
mdzI don't think it has happened once in practice in 8 years17:23
mdzcjwatson, website for sure17:24
czajkowskipleia2: ahh ok, this is where the term chair should possibly be defined then tbh, as chair has always been rotated on all boards with equal standing except CC which has mark as chair chair17:24
pleia2mdz: sabdfl likes the idea of chairs, so I think we might want to defer this for feedback from him too (he may have a clearer picture or remember where we documented the role)17:24
cjwatsonWe used to be closer to it when we were responsible for developer approval, but with the odd exception most other matters that come to us seem to be relatively consensual at least among the board17:24
mdzI don't think it's causing any problem per se, but it seemed like a rough edge worth reviewing17:24
mdzpleia2, if it's to be an official role, it should be elected17:25
pleia2czajkowski: in theory membership boards have "chair" or "secretary" as well, who is also responsible for making sure the stuff gets done (team reports, meetings happen)17:25
cjwatsonback in Oxford in 2004 I'm sure I remember an explicit idea that Mark would break ties on the CC and TB17:25
mdzcjwatson, that matches my recollection17:25
cjwatsonThe notion drifted for a while because Mark also sat directly on both17:25
pleia2ok, so I think we want to determine what the role is supposed to be, and then take the conversation from there17:26
cjwatsonThen he decided he wanted to step down from a direct seat on the TB, but I don't think that ever superseded his general benevolent-dictator role17:26
pleia2ah17:27
mdzpleia2, so that's a CC action then?17:27
pleia2yeah, I'll take it17:27
pleia2czajkowski: action me to look into definition of chair on these boards and follow up with CC and TB?17:27
czajkowski#action pleia2 to start a thread on the role of a chair on boards17:27
meetingologyACTION: pleia2 to start a thread on the role of a chair on boards17:27
mdzthanks17:27
pleia2thanks :D17:27
czajkowskipleia2: np sorry in 2 meetings at once :)17:28
czajkowskiany other comments from the TB members?17:28
mdzin general, the various descriptions of the TB's role feel dated these days17:28
mdzthey talk about library versions and feature goals and so on17:29
mdzand don't really capture that, at the scale Ubuntu operates at today, the TB isn't involved day to day in any routine decision making17:29
mdzthe de facto scope of the TB is to offer assistance in exceptional cases17:30
czajkowskimdz: would it be an idea for the board to update the description and mail the CC afterwards for review?17:30
mdzfor example, if a team needs specific technical advice, or is having trouble reaching a consensus17:30
cjwatsongah, we didn't get rid of all that library versions stuff?  I thought we nuked that from our own description a while back17:30
mdzcjwatson, it's still on http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/governance17:31
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mdzhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard is a little less specific but still doesn't describe the present scope very well IMO17:31
cjwatsongrumble.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard is marginally better but could still use improvement.17:31
mdzczajkowski, we could do that17:31
pleia2it doesn't strictly need our review, but we can offer feedback if needed17:32
mdzdoes that content belong on the website or on the wiki? it should only be in one place17:32
mdzI think for most teams, it's in the wiki17:32
pleia2the trouble with ubuntu.com is it requires a ticket and follow-up, it takes a while, so we want to make the website docs as simplified as possible17:32
mdzbut the CC, TB and SABDFL also have (redundant?) content on the website17:32
pleia2yeah :\17:33
pleia2that has never been coordinated very well, I don't know who writes the content for the website or who they work with in the community17:33
mdzheh, it even says that the TB meetings alternate with CC, which I don't think is particularly accurate17:33
mdzpleia2, if you could let us know where the verbage should go, I can take a stab at writing it17:34
pleia2mdz: I'd say update the wiki and then we'll worry about the website17:34
cjwatsonI think the last time we talked about this I pared down the website content to be just our headline description; I should have gone further and made it a link17:34
mdzok17:34
pleia2cjwatson: yeah17:34
pleia2czajkowski: can you action mdz to update TB docs?17:35
mdzthose are the things which came to mind for me17:35
mdzpleia2, I've got it17:35
czajkowski#action mdz update the TB docs17:35
pleia2thanks17:35
meetingologyACTION: mdz update the TB docs17:35
mdzwe'll track it as a TB action17:35
pleia2great17:35
mdzcjwatson, anything else?17:36
mdzczajkowski, pleia2, is this the kind of thing you were looking for in the catch-up? this is the first one I've participated in17:37
pleia2mdz: yep! thanks for coming17:37
czajkowskimdz: yes thanks17:37
mdzthe email mentioned "reviewing team reports together"17:37
czajkowskialways nice to see how other boards are doing17:37
czajkowskimdz: indeed some boards do a monthly team report17:37
pleia2mdz: just under "might" cover :)17:38
mdzwe used to do that, but AFAIK it was never more than a concatenation of the meeting minutes17:38
mdzdo you want to look at those and let us know if you have any questions?17:38
cjwatsonI fill in the TeamReports thing when I remember, which gets automatically concatenated17:38
cjwatsonWe have been extremely quiet of late, in general; not much stuff has come to us17:38
czajkowskinofd17:38
pleia2the benefit of team reports is they end up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports which is included in UWN so the broader community has a place to go to see all reports17:38
czajkowskinofd17:39
cjwatsonFor the most part I view this as a good sign since our scope has been moving in the direction of dispute resolution17:39
mdzoh, one other thing17:39
cjwatsonWe've had some discussions about being more proactive about "issues of the day", but they haven't tended to come to much and perhaps they're not a god idea17:39
cjwatson*good17:39
czajkowskicjwatson: at least you discussed it17:39
mdzthe one recurring task (self)assigned to the TB, we've had trouble actually doing17:39
czajkowski:)17:39
mdzthat being the brainstorm reviews17:39
pleia2mdz: is anyone else formally reviewing brainstorm?17:40
mdzpleia2, there are moderators who help garden it17:40
mdzpleia2, but "review" is maybe a misleading name for what was intended on behalf of the TB17:40
pleia2yeah, I think the idea of TB "review" was to find actionable development items17:41
mdzthe goal was that the most popular ideas in brainstorm should elicit an official response from the project17:41
cjwatsonThe brainstorm reviews have been popular and (I think) useful when we've done them, but the last couple have been belated (I can hardly complain, since I started that trend apparently)17:41
mdzto use brainstorm as a tool for listening to the user community17:41
mdzmaybe this is a sign that this should be delegated17:41
mdzwe had a brief discussion about that17:41
pleia2I do think it's valuable thing17:41
cjwatsonIt's sort of like the big-and-fluffy equivalent of looking at the top crashers on errors.ubuntu.com17:42
mdzexactly17:42
mdzanyway, just an FYI for purposes of this meeting I guess. nothing for the CC to do I think17:43
cjwatsonMy feeling is that this does belong with the TB, but too many of our members are too busy; I don't know whether this view is shared17:43
czajkowskimdz: cjwatson is it meant to be done at the meeting  or via mailing list ?17:43
mdzof course I don't think we would turn away help :-)17:43
pleia2I don't think it needs to be very formal, maybe grab some more general devs in the community and ask them to help out?17:43
cjwatsonczajkowski: too big for at a meeting, we've been rotating one member doing a review of the top ten (notionally) every three months17:43
mdzczajkowski, it's a medium sized project, which involves working with various people in other teams and getting their help writing responses and publishing them17:43
pleia2(it does seem that delegation is needed here)17:43
cjwatsonwhich is supposed to involve going and talking with appropriate developers to get them to supply responses17:44
cjwatsonwhen I did it I think I got something like a 60% response rate, which was lower than I'd hoped but wasn't bad17:44
pleia2cheesehead from brainstorm is quite the active community member, talking to him about what brings the most value may be useful too17:44
cjwatsonit took me about three weeks elapsed time, probably about a day's total work17:44
czajkowskicjwatson: 3 months is a long time as well.17:45
mdzIan Weisser offered help17:45
pleia2ah, good17:45
mdzthe total amount of work across everyone involved makes it a sizeable effort17:45
mdzmaybe an hour's work each, but for a dozen or so people17:46
czajkowskinods thanks for the explaination17:46
mdzanything else?17:47
pleia2I think that's it17:47
czajkowskinope I'm all good thanks17:47
pleia2thanks for coming17:47
czajkowskiok we'll move on17:48
czajkowskinext person isn't about17:48
czajkowskiAlanBell: ping17:48
AlanBellhi17:48
pleia2JC Hulce/soaringsky - are you here with another nickname?17:48
pleia2I'll follow up with them via email17:48
czajkowskipleia2: I did that already in /whois17:49
czajkowski#topic Election and appointment of the 5th member of the IRCC17:49
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Election and appointment of the 5th member of the IRCC
czajkowskiAlanBell: thanks for coming17:49
AlanBellso the IRCC charter states we should have 5 members, back when this IRCC was appointed there were only 4 applicants17:50
AlanBellwe decided to hold off on recruiting until the Q cycle, so now we are ready17:50
czajkowskigreat to hear17:50
pleia2great17:50
AlanBellthe appointment process is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil17:51
pleia2AlanBell: last time a sitting member of the IRCC did the call for nominations, so I'd suggest moving forward with a similar process this time https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-November/001465.html17:51
pleia2send to the cc list, -irc and -news-team17:52
czajkowskiAlanBell: do you have a time frame in mind17:52
AlanBellpleia2: ok, great, that bit wasn't so clear, I can do that17:52
AlanBellczajkowski: lets get on and do it17:52
pleia2https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-November/001467.html is the second email in that (he had to make some adjustments :))17:53
pleia2looks like the call was open for 2 weeks last time17:53
czajkowskiAlanBell: great just be really clear on the date/deadlines17:53
AlanBellwhich takes it nicely to the end of the month if announced today17:53
* pleia2 nods17:53
czajkowskiAlanBell: thanks for this17:54
czajkowskino actions from us from this17:54
czajkowskianything else?17:54
pleia2just a quick thing about the CoC17:55
AlanBellok, so end of this month for applications, then we can start the vote during next month17:55
pleia2AlanBell: sounds good!17:55
czajkowski#topic Code of Conduct17:55
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Code of Conduct
pleia2at UDS the CC met to discuss the proposed CoC again, cproffit blogged about it here and linked to the notes: http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/uds-day-four-code-of-conduct-review/17:56
pleia2there have been some revisions based on this discussion (huge thanks to Laney in particular for his great feedback)17:56
pleia2but being post-UDS week, we're still catching up to make sure everything was addressed :)17:56
pleia2once we're at a good stopping point, we'll put it out to the community for another review before publishing17:57
pleia2that's it from me17:57
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czajkowskigreat17:57
czajkowski#topic AOB17:58
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
czajkowskianything else ?17:58
czajkowskinope ok then17:58
czajkowski#endmeeting17:58
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu May 17 17:58:50 2012 UTC.17:58
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-17-17.10.moin.txt17:58
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-17-17.10.html17:58
pleia2I can update minutes and wiki17:58
czajkowskipleia2: thanks17:58
pleia2we can discuss who can chair next time on list (since not many people here now)17:59
czajkowskiaye thats was my reasoning for not picking beuno :)17:59
pleia2we also need someone to email the next board on the list17:59
pleia2we're in the new cycle, so our new list should go on the wiki once it's fully acked17:59
pleia2I think that's it18:00
pleia2thanks czajkowski18:00
czajkowskipleia2: thanks :)18:00
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