[01:24] <Len-nb> ailo, looks ok to me. 
[01:31] <Len-nb> knome, sometimes both irc and email makes more sense. email allows long bits to be shared easy, irc is good for quick back n forth.
[01:51] <ailo> Len-nb: I forget, was there a starter for installing Ubuntu Studio on the desktop, or only in the menu?
[01:57] <ailo> nevermind. I need to check the something else anyway tomorrow. Will do that too
[02:17] <ailo> Well, I'm pretty happy with the way it looks right now. Been sitting here for almost 12h working at this, so maybe time to something else for a while
[02:24] <ailo> I've noticed that the Community Docs don't get updated in your browser until you refresh
[02:24] <ailo> A little annoying
[02:25] <ailo> So, if you visited any newly edited page, you probably need to update the browser to see the new version each time
[02:25] <ailo> Meaning, each time it was edited
[04:18] <Len-nb> ailo, Ya, that is what browser cache is all about.
[04:19] <Len-nb> you go back to a page and browser goes, I've got that on disk much faster than downloading it again.
[04:29] <ailo> Len-nb: The regular wiki is not like that, which is why I mention it
[04:29] <ailo> Also, it may happen that some of you are visiting a page several times, and not noticing the changes
[04:41] <Len-nb> ailo, the header can tell the browser how long the page is valid for. A time to live.A page that gives a past date or time always gets refreshed.
[04:42] <Len-nb> I think it is called expire time or the like.
[04:44] <Len-nb> I have used back when I did CGI stuff... haven't for a while.
[04:47] <ailo> Len-nb: Ok, so it might be refreshed pretty soon then
[04:48] <ailo> I was going to quit a while ago, but kept going. Not a lot more to do, from how I set it up
[06:36] <astraljava> ailo: Okay, I'll try. I'm going to be pretty busy until Sunday, though, so you might have to publish without my proofreading.
[06:43] <astraljava> ailo: Oh, and pay no attention to knome. He needs a certified mental health professional around him at all times. *blink* *blink*
[07:29] <ailo> Well, I'm pretty happy now. I finished just about everything I set out to do. There are still a few things here and there that aren't perfectly finished, which I will do during the next 24h. Now I'm definately not working anymore on it for a while
[08:29] <astraljava> ailo: Excellent! :) I'll read it through over the weekend. Thanks!
[19:34] <ailo> I finished the audio user guide
[19:36] <ailo> Tried to keep it short, but that turned out to be a little hard
[19:36] <ailo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro/1204
[21:16] <ailo> scott-work: I was thinking of maybe putting myself as a candidate for something like, Documentation Lead
[21:17] <len-dt> ailo, better you than me, I am finding I am too wordy... trying to do a tweaks roadmap
[21:18] <ailo> After redoing the wiki (which is yet to be published), I felt like it might be good to have one person in charge of it
[21:19] <ailo> I don't think the community wiki would need much work for a long time to come, other than just making sure it's tidy and up to date
[21:21] <ailo> len-dt: I do try to be short to the point, and clear, but it's a little tricky, since English is not my native language. But being in charge of documentation wouldn't nessecarily mean you need to write everything yourself. Just try to keep things tidu
[21:21] <ailo> tidy*
[21:21] <ailo> I think there's lot's of room for more documentation
[21:22] <ailo> This would be a good place to add all sorts of things https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/HowTos
[21:22] <ailo> Anything from how to build your own rt kernel, to making mp3's and so on
[21:22] <ailo> Most of the community wiki would just be static, and not change for years
[21:24] <len-dt> ailo, the last settings page I was doing... is just started. It explains a bit about what kernel modules are, but not why they might need to be managed (meaning removed ;-)
[21:26] <scott-work> ailo: i want to support you in contributing to the documentation
[21:27] <scott-work> is a lack of a documentation lead preventing getting it done?
[21:27]  * len-dt is lending applause
[21:27] <ailo> len-dt: I'm hoping I can join in and do some testing on those subjects. Once something has been clarified, I guess a HowTwo would never hurt
[21:28] <ailo> I think the state of the wiki until now has probably not helped anyway
[21:29] <len-dt> ailo, see the new post on the list for more. It seems audio is outside of most "conventional" wisdom.
[21:30] <len-dt> scott-work, I think someone in charge means that if someone mentions something that person might just add it to the wiki (or remove).
[21:31] <len-dt> Or at least remind the mentioner that maybe they could add it.
[21:31] <ailo> It would be good to have user be more interactive with the wiki
[21:31] <scott-work> i hope i am not misunderstood, i would like people to commit to helping with the documentation
[21:31] <ailo> And to keep it simple, the howto would be a very simple place to keep things
[21:32] <scott-work> the blueprint action items i mentioned regarding documentation were commitments i was willing to meet
[21:32] <ailo> scott-work: Sure, but to keep things clear and concise, I think we need someone in charge that will make sure things don't get out of date or misplaced
[21:32] <scott-work> i tried not to over commit myself, but worry about it
[21:32] <ailo> I feel like Documentation is already done, after I did the Wiki
[21:32] <ailo> I mean, the core of it
[21:33] <scott-work> ailo: where are the changes you have made?  i have not seen them yet
[21:33] <ailo> scott-work: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/NewWiki
[21:33] <len-dt> scott-work, it is easy to do. Still, it is good for things to be laid out so that new contributers might see a hole they can fit in.
[21:33] <ailo> It's a replacement for the current front page. 
[21:34] <scott-work> ailo: i think you have done some remarkable work on the documentation :)
[21:35] <ailo> scott-work: The idea is that most of that page and it's links remain static, unchanged. User contributions would end up in "HowTos", and Workflows would end up under "Ubuntu Studio User Guide"
[21:35] <scott-work> there are some topics that i had intended to include...like actually recording audio with ardour or audacity, making connections, using qtractor for midi...those type of "usage" items
[21:35] <ailo> scott-work: Put those in "HowTos"
[21:35] <scott-work> ah, i see, you would include those in the HowTos
[21:35] <scott-work> okay
[21:36] <len-dt> scott-work, ailo That makes very good sense.
[21:36] <ailo> scott-work: Also, to use ardour, you could read a manual for it found in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Resources
[21:36] <ailo> Under Software Manuals
[21:37] <ailo> Those manuals are probably the richest in information out there
[21:37] <len-dt> ailo, I think scott-work means more than just ardour.
[21:37] <scott-work> ailo: i certainly don't disagree with linking to the foss manual for ardour, i think a "quick start" guide for making a connection and recroding in ardour would be helpful as well
[21:37] <ailo> scott-work: I was going to include that in the User Guide I made
[21:37] <scott-work> len-dt: well, yeah actually you are right, although i admit i'm focusing on ardour at the moment
[21:38] <scott-work> ailo: that sounds really good, and it looks like you are doing a great job
[21:38] <scott-work> that takes quite a expected load off of my shoulders for this cycle then :)
[21:38] <ailo> I guess the user guide could be expanded a lot more, if there's interest in doind do
[21:38] <len-dt> scott-work, yes but ardour with qtractor and jackd and other things. Sort of a complete package. not how to use ardour so much as how to use a studio.
[21:39] <scott-work> i particularly like having "hooks" there for people to add stuff where it doesn't really incur our team more load
[21:39] <ailo> I think there's a lot of room for specific subjects under "HowTos", while just getting to understand how to make use of applications in general is best done in the user guide
[21:39] <ailo> For audio, that is
[21:40] <len-dt> ailo, right.
[21:41] <ailo> I guess my idea is that most of the community documentation is in fact a official documentation, with corners for users to expand on various subject
[21:41] <len-dt> ailo, I think a how to might point to the user guide for each program mentioned while showing how to use two or more programs together
[21:41] <ailo> I can see the point in just showing how to connect "any" program with "any" other program in the user guide
[21:42] <len-dt> ailo, Ya, also what programs might go together to make a working studio.
[21:43] <scott-work> ailo: len-dt: here's a good question for you - where SHOULD the documentation be;  help.ubuntu.com or ubuntustudio.org ?
[21:43] <ailo> help.ubuntu.com for sure
[21:43] <ailo> Oh, well
[21:43] <len-dt> scott-work, as holstein says over and over ubuntustudio is ubuntu.
[21:43] <holstein> :)
[21:44] <ailo> I mean, I guess we could have something fancy on the main site, but that would be a bonus
[21:44] <ailo> And I wouldn't mind just duplicating some things
[21:45] <ailo> Well, hmm
[21:45] <len-dt> ailo, links work.
[21:45] <ailo> If we would keep user guides on the main site, that would probably work
[21:45] <ailo> And some other stuff that wouldn't need to change a lot 
[21:45] <ailo> And keep the help.ubuntu.com more for things like "howtos"
[21:46] <len-dt> ailo, the ubuntustudio site can not be changed by users, the ubuntu wiki can.
[21:46] <ailo> The wiki frontpage would still be the same, but some of those links would just link to the main site
[21:46] <ailo> Like the userguide
[21:49] <len-dt> ailo, things that should be on the US site would be things that show how the apps we ship might be used. The wiki might be more general
[21:51] <ailo> The way I set it up now is that "Installing Ubuntu Studio", "Get Instant Support", "Ubuntu Studio User Guide", "FAQ", "Contributing to Ubuntu Studio", is mostly static, and shouldn't be changed too much
[21:51] <ailo> So, all of those could be moved to the main site
[21:51] <ailo> But, some links under the FAQ section would still link to the Wiki
[21:52] <ailo> Well, maybe other stuff too
[21:52] <len-dt> ailo, as much as possible ;-)
[21:52] <ailo> But not so much for the first three items I mentioned
[21:52] <ailo> Cause they would probably be best kept fully static
[21:53] <len-dt> ailo, At leas for any one release
[21:53] <len-dt> corrections only.
[21:53] <ailo> The user guide nees to be release specific
[21:54] <ailo> If not different pages, then at least have sections where releases might differ
[21:54] <ailo> It all depends on what changes really
[21:54] <len-dt> ailo, for at least the latest LTS and latest release.
[21:54] <ailo> Yeah
[21:55] <len-dt> release minus could be archived
[21:55] <len-dt> s/minus/minus 1/
[21:56] <len-dt> but I think that is down the road right now as we have nothing to archive from 11.10 ;-)
[21:56] <ailo> For now, I'm just happy we have an up to date wiki
[21:56] <ailo> So, whatever we do with the main site, we could just start doing now, and then decide if it works or not
[21:57] <len-dt> When are you moving it main?
[21:57] <ailo> I could do it now. Just wanted to have some opinions on that first
[21:57] <ailo> scott-work: So, with your ok, I'll gladly publish the new wiki, and make it public on the mail list
[21:57] <len-dt> mine is do it now
[21:59] <len-dt> There seems to be a comment on #ubuntustudio atr least once a day asking if US is still going or telling us how out of date the website is.
[22:00] <scott-work> ailo: len-dt:  i agree with holstein, i think most users don't even know about h.u.c and think ubuntustudio.org IS ubuntustudio
[22:00] <scott-work> i'm not sure that users not being able to update the documentation is really a downer, they have access right now and not much is currently changing in h.u.c :/
[22:01] <scott-work> the only updating being done currently is by those associated with the team (ttoine, ailo, me, holstein)
[22:02] <scott-work> i would be nervous about having the same information in two places, at some point it will fall out of sync
[22:02] <ailo> I don't think individual users will want to change the core of the documentation anyway. I think they expect to have something official, but if we make it clear that *put anything you want here* in *HowTos*, we might get more activity there
[22:02] <scott-work> ailo: i think publishing what we have is a good thing for now, it shows progress
[22:02] <scott-work> ailo: we can always migrate stuff to where we want it later
[22:02] <len-dt> scott-work, yes but part of that is the way the wiki is laid out. when a user is not logged in the page is set to "unmutable"
[22:03] <len-dt> it makes it seem that page can not be changed.
[22:03] <ailo> I could add some text in HowTos saying, create an account and start adding if you want.. 
[22:03] <len-dt> ailo, Good idea.
[22:03] <ailo> I already mention that in the introduction
[22:05] <ailo> Ok, I changed the front page now. The old wiki is saved here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Deprecated%20Ubuntu%20Studio%20Pages
[22:06] <ailo> scott-work: Yeah, I don't think we should have the same exact content on both wiki and the main site. I reconsidered later, thinking that if we do put something up on the main site, we remove it from the wiki, and just keep the link, but no linking to the main site instead
[22:06] <ailo> Also, we don't need to change the wiki until we've added something to the main site
[22:07] <ailo> So, there's no real hurry with that
[22:08] <len-dt> Ok, so the new page is not https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio but https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
[22:08] <ailo> So, I think we should try to finish what needs to be done on the main site, so we can publish it. And only after, think about replacing stuff
[22:08] <len-dt> ailo, just checking how easy it was to find from googling ubuntustudio and selecting wiki.
[22:09] <ailo> len-dt: http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio is the community documentation wiki, while I guess the other is more tuned towards development
[22:10] <scott-work> len-dt: ailo:  aye
[22:10] <len-dt> I'm just thinking maybe it needs to standout more on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio page.
[22:11] <len-dt> Like maybe before screen shots.
[22:11] <scott-work> a simple way to parse them is to consider that help.ubuntu.com is user facing and helps to USE ubuntustudio while wiki.ubuntu.com is more contributor facing and helps in ubuntustudio DEVELOPMENT
[22:11] <scott-work> as we discussed, the website may replace help.ubuntu.com however
[22:12] <len-dt> The news item should be on the US page anyway.
[22:12] <scott-work> ailo and len-dt: if i created a blueprint this weekend, would the one (or both) help to give it actionable item and possibly one of you head it up to make sure progress is made throughout this cycle?
[22:13] <scott-work> ach, "if i created an 'improve the OOTB performance' blueprint"
[22:15] <len-dt> scott-work, I think we are. But I should have at least a list of things the user could do to help themselves. I would also like to see a setup utility and a mode utility.
[22:16] <scott-work> len-dt: keep in mind this is to help guide and track our development for just this cycle
[22:16] <len-dt> This list will be US specific. Taking some of the things from http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration and others. tweaked to make them work for us.
[22:16] <scott-work> don't worry about what users could do to help themselves necessarily, unless you mean to make an action to document it or send an email to the list
[22:17] <scott-work> ailo: have you tried to log in to the staging website?
[22:17] <scott-work> all the work you are currently doing might be put there
[22:18] <ailo> scott-work: I haven't tried loggin in yet
[22:19] <scott-work> len-dt: if you wanted to work on the wiki.linuxmusicians.com stuff you might roll that into actionable items such as "research the website and make a list of what might work for us", "test items and document results", "make suggestion to incorporate", "agree on final changes" and "make changes"
[22:20] <scott-work> the whole point of the blueprints is to have definitive actions that provide results
[22:21] <ailo> I haven't seen the blueprint yet, but I'm dedicated to helping len-dt with testing and documentation on that subject
[22:21] <len-dt> scott-work, a number of tweaks are machine specific, the idea being that most of the time a user should not have to do anything, but if they have a problem these are some tips to start.
[22:22] <scott-work> len-dt:  that is not applicable to the blueprints though
[22:22] <ailo> scott-work: How do I log in into the staging site?
[22:22] <scott-work> ailo: hold on a minute...
[22:24] <scott-work> len-dt: am i misunderstanding your comments?  it seems to me that you might be confusing what goes into the blueprints
[22:25] <len-dt> scott-work, I realize that the BP is a quick sketch of things. My problem with it so far is that I tend to want to put too much into it...
[22:26] <len-dt> I had the idea though that you were saying if we found somethings that helped we would change the settings of  or on the DVD.
[22:26] <scott-work> keep the items categorical then
[22:27] <scott-work> len-dt: that is true, if we found things that would improve the user experience we should explore that
[22:27] <scott-work> s/that/them
[22:27] <scott-work> but to fit that into a blueprint is to say
[22:27] <scott-work> [len] research linuxmusicians wiki for ways to improve OOTB
[22:27] <ailo> In my mind it would be enough just to say, explore system tweak options. And perhaps use two subcategories - untweakable, and tweakable, where the tweakable settings will need some kind of a control application
[22:27] <scott-work> [len] test wiki items
[22:28] <ailo> And the control application could just be a script
[22:28] <scott-work> ...
[22:28] <scott-work> you would be identifying and documentating the steps you would take
[22:28] <len-dt> scott-work, we have to be careful that any audio tweaks we do to the DVD do not make the system worse for the graphic artist.
[22:28] <scott-work> that woudl be another line items
[22:28] <scott-work> the blueprint is a checklist or steps used to accomplish the goal (whatever the goal is)
[22:29] <scott-work> reference the old blueprints
[22:29] <len-dt> scott-work, ok.
[22:29] <scott-work> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
[22:29] <scott-work> this is just a "header" blueprint, the bottom of the page shows the others which you can click on to see them
[22:30] <len-dt> scott-work, to be perfectly honest my mind doesn't work the way BP do I tend to be much more focused. This is a (good) stretch for me.
[22:30] <scott-work> again, this is high level actions (a series of steps) you will use to accomplish something 
[22:30] <scott-work> len-dt: hehe, get what you can in there and i'll look over it and help where i can
[22:30] <len-dt> No worries, I get it
[22:34] <len-dt> anyway I have some things to do (make bread dough for tomorrow). Will talk later.
[22:38] <scott-work> i need to go as well and pick up son on the way home
[23:01] <ailo> It's so typical me to post an announcement, and mispell it