[14:40] hi thorwil I see your name on the mailing list, but not the authors list. You are not an author? [14:41] hi hannie. no, not an author [14:41] nor an editor? [14:41] hannie: yes, not an editor either [14:42] ok, just wanted to know [18:34] hey all [18:52] hi all [18:52] hello [18:53] i think we didn't estimated the meeting time good enough [18:53] :P [18:54] there were a few that couldnt make it, i saw. haha [18:54] its okay. any guess on how many we have? [18:54] just before some mins the champions league final started [18:54] hm idk [18:55] who's here for the meeting ? [18:55] o/ [18:55] o/ [18:55] hi I am here. [18:55] godbyk: ping ! [18:55] hello Tony [18:56] o/, though all i have to say is that i intend to deliver an update of the titlepage. and maybe also of the project logo [18:56] Hello! [18:56] thorwil: good news ! [18:56] Hey, c7p. [18:56] hallo === godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-12-04-4thMeeting | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com [19:03] we ready to roll on? [19:03] c7p: Are we expecting many more people at this meeting or is most everyone here? [19:04] almost everyone is here from what i see on doodle [19:04] Okay. Shall we get started then? [19:05] i think yes [19:05] #startmeeting [19:05] Meeting started Sat May 19 19:05:13 2012 UTC. The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [19:05] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [19:05] #topic Roll call [19:05] Thanks for coming everyone. [19:05] If you're here for the meeting, please say 'hello' for our roll call. [19:05] Hello [19:06] hello [19:06] hello [19:06] hello [19:06] hello [19:06] hello [19:06] Thanks! If anyone comes in late, meetingology should catch them. [19:06] #topic Author updates and status reports [19:07] The deadline for the first draft is May 31. [19:07] here you can see the status every single section http://bit.ly/I0SAXe [19:07] All of the new content should be written and the screenshots should be in place by then. [19:07] To the authors: Have you encountered any problems or do you have any questions so far? [19:07] "Learning More" should be all set [19:08] Does anyone think they won't be able to make the May 31 deadline? [19:08] Obviously, this is not a mission-critical chapter :) [19:08] But I do enjoy maintaining it [19:08] None in my sections so far. Just need to do some finishing touches and screencaps [19:08] None in my section. [19:09] That's quite comforting to hear! :-) [19:09] herat screens are pushed on the branch ? [19:09] Though, I suppose it's more likely that the authors I need to worry about are the ones who aren't at the meeting. ;-) [19:09] y maybe :D [19:09] ha! true [19:09] c7p: Yes. [19:09] c7p: Were there some issues with the Troubleshooting chapter? [19:09] cool so is finished almost finished ? [19:10] yap will talk about it next [19:10] c7p: Yes. It is finished. :) [19:10] cool [19:11] well [19:11] from the desktop chapter i got almost no feedback from John [19:11] Hannie must doing well [19:12] what concerns me most is the first part of that chapter that is very important and doesn't have an author [19:12] hello [19:12] everyone [19:12] hey sayantandas [19:12] finally managed to login to irc! [19:12] :D glad to hear that [19:12] c7p: which chapter is missing an author? [19:12] yap [19:13] i 've sent a message to the list but nobody seemed interested [19:13] or maybe John did but i got scarce feedback from him [19:14] we'll need one or two to get assigned to it [19:14] i don't think many have to change there but that section has to be the most well-written [19:14] cause it's very critical in my opinion [19:14] can we just flip an editor to review it? [19:15] c7p: I agree that that section is most critical to understanding how to use Unity/Ubuntu. [19:15] tomswartz07: maybe, that could help, [19:15] is anyone interested in helping with that section ? [19:16] i figure, if there arent too many changes, it should be no issue for an 'editor' style review [19:16] I will review it, if that would help [19:16] cool, thx TonyP [19:16] Just point me at it [19:17] we need an author too to write the HUD section [19:17] if any chapter requires input, i may be able to help.. [19:17] and maybe the chapter has to be reorganized for a better understanding, i'm not sure about that though [19:17] good to know [19:17] i have the sound menu for review; i have seen changes are quite little [19:18] cool [19:19] then the Additional software section [19:19] i have not feedback from its author [19:19] herat could you manage it ? [19:19] Hello, che. === che is now known as Guest67191 [19:20] *additional software section is in the Software management chapter [19:20] He guys, sorry I'm late, rushed off my feet here :) [19:20] c7p: Yes, I could do that. [19:20] hello Guest67191 [19:20] herat: nice, thx [19:20] <--kereltis [19:21] hm, anything else to be said in this topic ? [19:22] c7p: Did we find authors for all the sections that need them? [19:22] Anthony will do the office suite and totem sections [19:23] and then troubleshooting chapter need author [19:23] or authors [19:23] tomswartz07 and Kev Quirk are interested from what i remeber [19:23] if nobody appears for that chatper [19:23] c7p: Okay. Let's try to get that sorted out over the next couple days. If need be, we can put out another call for authors for those sections. [19:23] sure, id be willing to work on it. [19:24] godbyk: yea [19:24] i am ok to work for HUD + my existing sections [19:24] #topic Troubleshooting chapter [19:24] c7p: Did we cover the troubleshooting chapter already? [19:25] tomswartz07: could you manage the a part of this section or make an outline for it ? [19:25] nope i don't think so [19:25] surely. what do you need done? [19:25] sayantandas: ok good :), we'll talk through mail about it [19:26] 1st i think the chapter needs to be re-written in order to meet today needs [19:26] not much have changed there since 10.04 [19:26] at least that's my impression [19:26] so section have to be removed, others need update and others need to be added [19:27] what do you think ? [19:27] sounds good. Ill work up a detailed outline for the new chapter [19:28] ah good [19:28] would GoogleDocs work for everyone, or should I use another service? [19:28] tomswartz07: Google Docs should work fine. [19:28] Kev is also interested so if you need a second hand he should be able to help [19:28] Hey, ChrisWoollard. [19:28] hello Chris !: ) [19:28] Sorry I am late. Was putting kids to bed [19:29] ChrisWoollard: Excuses, excuses! [19:29] Hi Chris [19:29] At least i remembered this time [19:29] aren't you watching Chelsea ? :P [19:29] Hi Guest67191 [19:29] No. Couldn't care less about football [19:29] fair enough [19:30] zing! [19:30] brb guys, trying to sort out this name thing [19:30] ok, sorted [19:30] c7p: Did we get all the authors/chapters discussion sorted? (That is, shall we move on to the next topic?) [19:30] ok so tom will make an outline of the new chapter [19:30] yes [19:31] ill sort it and share with the mailing list [19:31] if tom hasn't to say anything else let's proceed [19:31] :) nice [19:31] #topic VirtualBox as a tool for authors and editors [19:31] tomswartz07: Did you want to lead this part of the discussion? [19:31] certainly. [19:32] ive found that, while working on the manual sections, VirtualBox makes it easier to manage your systems [19:32] i feel it would be best to give an example. [19:33] In the Instant Messaging section, there is a section on the 'First Run' dialog, and how you may set up your accounts. [19:33] unfortunately, its difficult to pull up the first run, well.. after your first run. [19:34] If you use Virtualbox, you can run a fresh, clean install of Ubuntu, avoiding issues from your own personal customizations [19:35] hm, that would be highly beneficial especially if we use it for the 12.10, [19:35] I feel that this would be most helpful for the sections that deal with the desktop and UI elements, as having screenshots with various backgrounds, fonts, etc may confuse [19:36] the main feature about Virtualbox is that you can take a "Snapshot" that saves the exact machine state. [19:36] I agree, I use vbox all the time for testing distros and it's very easy to setup and use [19:36] so, if you need to redo a 'first-run' menu many times, you just reload that snapshot [19:37] kereltis: right! its very easy to set up- it installs a basic Ubuntu (or any OS) as a file on your drive, and you run it as a program [19:37] yep [19:38] tomswartz07: If people are interested in using VirtualBox with the Ubuntu Manual project, it might be useful to have some step-by-step instructions on how to set it up for that use. We could put the instructions on the mailing list and in the style guide. [19:38] Certainly. [19:38] good idea [19:38] good idea [19:39] after some releases this guide will be a manual to make a manual :P [19:39] very meta [19:39] c7p: That's the goal. I'm trying to dump all of our how-to's and instructions in there. [19:40] i guess the idea is, if we all die in a plane crash, everyone will know how to redo the manual [19:40] btw Kevin, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual works ? [19:40] We will need to have a list of standard login id, machine name, etc [19:40] c7p: Yes, though it's likely woefully out of date. [19:41] yes i see it [19:41] does virtualbox support some kind of automation? [19:41] thorwil: what do you mean? [19:42] tomswartz07: automating "user" actions [19:42] no, unfortunately. [19:42] Virtualbox is made to allow you to run different operating systems at once on the same machine [19:43] similar to Parallels for Mac, i guess. [19:43] being able to write a script that walks through all required states and does screenshots would have been to awesome [19:43] thorwil: Agreed. That would've been awesome. [19:43] If VirtualBox could've been giving a list of keystrokes and mouse clicks to perform. [19:44] has anyone checked it http://shutter-project.org/ ? [19:44] Now, VB can take a screenshot of the system that will work for our manual, provided you set the VB resolution to the proper settings. [19:44] that sounds interesting tom [19:45] c7p: tried that but did not work perfectly for me. [19:45] c7p: right? [19:46] Because the entire OS from virtualbox runs in a program window, you can resize the 'display' to the appropriate setting and snap the screenshots [19:47] c7p: Shutter looks nice and appears to have a plugin system. I wonder if the functionality of Quickshot could be incorporated into a Shutter plugin. [19:48] i ll take a look on it in summer when i'll have more free time [19:48] #topic UDS meeting report [19:48] *i'll look at it [19:49] Hannie and I attended the Ubuntu Manual UDS session via IRC. [19:49] I'm not sure who else was listening in at the time on IRC. [19:49] I missed it [19:49] me too :( [19:49] missed uds completely [19:49] We discussed a bit about the history of the project and a bit about where we wanted to go with it. [19:49] was hoping it would appear on youtube [19:50] popey posted an email to his LUG and a blog entry asking his readers why they weren't contributing to the manual. You can read their responses: [19:50] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2012-May/thread.html#34095 [19:51] http://popey.com/blog/2012/05/09/why-not-contribute-to-ubuntu-manual/ [19:51] Just a sec and I'll find the link to the IRC channel logs. [19:52] Well, I responded to popey's email [19:52] we ask Jono to include a trophy in his ubuntu trophy project, might help with awarness [19:52] Here are the pad notes from the session: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20570/desktop-q-ubuntu-manual/ [19:53] Kevin i think Latex terrifies everyone who checks out getting involved pages ! [19:53] c7p: +1 [19:54] +2 [19:54] c7p that's a good point [19:54] IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/09/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.html [19:54] +3 so :P [19:54] I have been contributing to the manual since the first edition, and I have never once installed or run Latex [19:54] The IRC logs consist primarily of me responding to questions and discussion from the people at the UDS session. [19:54] (So it'll read as being quite one-sided.) [19:55] what's the alternative? docbook isn't necessarily more accessible. the manual written in LO Writer isn't gonna happen [19:55] Is it LaTeX itself that's intimidating or the installation process? [19:55] we can still use Latex [19:55] but the authors should have the option either to use it or not [19:56] We have in the past allowed authors to submit their work in others formats. [19:56] Then we have editors manage the LaTeX markup. [19:56] godbyk: Yes, and I think that went a long way toward encouraging more participation [19:56] I'm okay with that as long as the editors as willing to do it. [19:57] From the discussions I've had, it seems that people have been more put off by the installation process of upstream TeX Live than in using LaTeX itself. [19:57] Do you guys agree or disagree? [19:57] half and half. [19:58] agree [19:58] No probs for me even though I have not used LaTeX, but the install was hairy [19:58] Unfortunately, I think that the Debian folks are still rejiggering their texlive packages. (They're completely overhauling the way they're organized.) [19:58] godbyk: Agree. The installation process involves using the command line [19:58] i think that many are put off by the massive install base that TeX takes, and the other half assume that you need to be a code monkey to do anything [19:58] I can imagine people just want a ubuntu package. [19:58] I'd still prefer to use Libreoffice though [19:58] there is a gui version of latex, and also libreoffice extension.. can we not use either of them? [19:59] sayantandas: Well, there are LaTeX editors (basically IDEs for LaTeX) and you're welcome to use those. [19:59] godbyk: can't we generate a file with the proper options that will be used from installer ? [19:59] sayantandas: I don't think that the LibreOffice extensions will work with our manual, however. [19:59] c7p: I'm not sure. I'll look into it, though. [19:59] I'm wondering if authors need to install or use LaTeX at all. If not, then we might be able to remove all the LaTeX stuff from the "getting involved" instructions [20:00] Ideally, I'd love for our authors and editors to be able to do all of the work via a web editor (similar to a wiki but a bit more structured). But we need to do some design work and a lot of coding before that can happen. [20:00] this might eliminate a critical barrier to entry, allowing folks new to the project (or thinking about getting involved with it) a simple way to do so: Contrat the group, find an editor who needs a writer for a section, and get cracking. [20:01] *contact [20:01] stillnotcool: That's something we can do now. Authors can submit their writings to an editor as long as the editor is willing to convert it to LaTeX for them. [20:02] Right. And it's worked well in recent editions. [20:02] can we use docbook to generate latex code ? [20:02] c7p: Yes. Though there will always have to be some fine-tuning of the output. [20:03] c7p: I think that the docbook markup is at least as scary as the LaTeX markup, though. [20:03] i agree [20:03] ok [20:04] godbyk: I agree. What I'm thinking about might indicate a larger shift in the way we conceptualize the role of author and editor, the division of labor between the two [20:04] stillnotcool: +1 [20:05] I completely agree that we should simplify the workflow for authors and editors. [20:05] The instructions we feature on our home page seem to imply that writers -- in order to write and contribute -- need complex installations of software not already on their machiens, and not even available in the official repositories [20:05] And it'd be nice if they didn't have to know anything about LaTeX. [20:05] I think that having a web-based editing system would fix those issues for us, and that we should work on creating one. [20:06] (Though it obviously won't happen in time for 12.04, it'd be nice if it could be in place for 12.10 or at least 13.04.) [20:06] But do they still need to use bzr? [20:06] TonyP: Ideally, authors would be in charge of writing. Anything else is icing, gravy. [20:06] That's just as scary [20:06] Here's what Hannie and I do for Chapter 8: [20:07] Hannie pulls the most recent copy of the chapter from bzr when it's time to work [20:07] He shares that on Google Docs, where we both collaborate (I do the writing, he edits as I go). [20:07] WHen I sign off on it, he gives it a final edit, asks any remaining questions, then tightens the markeup and pushes the revision [20:08] This is a special case, I suppose, because we don't have screenshots [20:08] He and I both agreed to use GDocs because we're comfortable with it, and it mae collaborating easier. [20:08] Cool. [20:08] Writer/editor pairs could choose another tool if one works better. [20:08] Thats a very great idea [20:09] But this has worked well for us, and allowed me to do what I enjoy most: writing. [20:09] Another route that some authors/editors have taken is to just drop .ods files into an Ubuntu One shared folder. [20:09] godbyk: I like that, too. [20:09] sounds good [20:09] Maybe it is just a case of making sure people know that they can write anyway that suits them [20:09] or Dropbox, if you prefer cross platform for us Arch users :) [20:10] What I have envisioned is that we'd have a website that works similar to a wiki. Though instead of using wiki markup, we'd have a WYSIWYG editor. [20:10] Authors would write content. [20:10] We might advertise author jobs as writing jobs, and editor jobs as technical positions -- the work not only of editing prose, but marking up copy and taking screenshots (doing more technical work) [20:10] Once authors have written content, the editors are notified and can come along and tweak things. [20:10] Once the editors have finished with it, the translators are notified and can translate that section. [20:10] All of that would happen on the website. There'd be no LaTeX or bzr visible. [20:11] godbyk: Right. [20:11] In addition, when something that's been translated is edited/modified, the translated can see what's actually changed. [20:11] So if, say, a comma were added, the translated could see that only a comma has been added and that they don't need to retranslate the entire paragraph. [20:12] I think that would go a long way toward helping our translators. [20:12] They could start work a lot earlier in the process and keep up more easily. [20:12] godbyk: Well put [20:12] Once everything has been written an edited, we'd generate the LaTeX code, make any tweaks there that we wanted to make and have our PDFs ready to go. [20:12] http://www.scribtex.com/ Has anyone tried it? It has all the features we need. [20:12] At the same time, we'd generate ePUB and other formats. [20:13] herat: Yes! But costly. [20:13] stillnotcool: Oh. Did not see that. [20:13] herat: I haven't tried it yet. Though we'd need to be able to use our own document class ("template"). [20:13] And it looks like it's $10/month. [20:14] Anyway, that's some of what I have envisioned for our website and process in the future. To make that happen, we'd need to design the site in more detail and find some web developers to create it for us. [20:15] yap [20:15] we also need to talk about the project to the outside world [20:15] herat: I won't presume to argue for what's best with regard to our implementation/use of LaTeX. godbyk is the expert there, and knowsmore about what we need/want than I do. I'll just say that from a writer's perspective the current instructions are a little intimidating, and I think it behooves us in the near future to reconsider our writer/editor workflow to better accommodate newer contributors. [20:15] This website would also allow for drive-by editing. Anyone can come along and fix bugs. [20:15] godbyk: I like it. [20:15] If they're anonymous edits, they'd need to be approved by a registered editor first. [20:16] I think what we need is a person to basically hit up all of the Linux news outlets and cheerlead our project. if we could get more users, we could get much more varied skills and more breathing room to work [20:16] maybe worth testing at least [20:16] ChrisWoollard: What's worth testing? [20:16] scribtex [20:16] ChrisWoollard: Ah, gotcha. [20:17] I'll poke around it a bit and see how it looks. [20:17] click trial. it takes you to a demo site [20:17] I like how the basic/free version is limited to "one bollaborator." I'm unsure what that actually looks like! [20:17] *collaborator [20:18] Another topic that was raised during the UDS session: [20:18] #topic Collaboration with the docs team [20:18] The question of why we're not collaborating with the docs team is raised periodically. [20:19] Aside from some initial strife between Ben and the docs team when the project first started, [20:19] I think the real reason for lack of collaboration is that no one from either team has really taken up the issue. [20:19] godbyk: Right, a schism I never really understood, to be honest. [20:19] Are they still using another system. I forgot which one [20:19] godbyk: i agree [20:19] My question is: In what ways would teams benefit from collaboration? How can we collaborate? [20:20] ChrisWoollard: I think they're using docbook/mallard markup. [20:20] Ahhh. Mallard. That's what I was thinking of [20:20] I think the docs team likely has a better sense of what's most useful to the uninitiated. [20:21] Questions: How could the docs team help the manual project? How could we help the docs team? [20:21] The docs team must document _everything_ in Ubuntu, but it's likely they have some kind of data regarding which documentation is accessed most frequently by new users. [20:21] Understanding these patterns might help us target our manual and ensure that our chapters cover relevant material [20:22] i don't know how we can help each other, maybe we can have a poll of content were anyone of both project can have direct access to the work of the other [20:22] And because we are trying to remain sensitive to the needs of new/inexperienced users, we might offer them this perspective on relevant sections of the official documentation, which could benefit from what we've already done [20:23] I'll ask a stupid question while I'm at it (admitting my own ignorance): What does the docs team do? [20:23] From what I gather, they maintain the official Ubuntu help files. [20:24] my understanding is that the team maintains the documentation at help.ubuntu.com [20:24] i think that's what they do [20:24] Okay. [20:24] It would be nice to hear from them occasionally [20:24] So they are the help team [20:24] My sense is that we're all working with the same mission, though our foci are different [20:25] we are writing material specifically targetted at new users [20:25] True but I see the two projects as aiming at different people, they cover everything in great detail which can turn into geek speech, good stuff but can be intimidating if your new to computers. We on the other hand target the people that are brand new and just want the basics to get them started in basic language they can easily follow. [20:25] what we do seems to me a subset of the overal project of documenting Ubuntu [20:25] kereltis: Yes. [20:26] So, try this: [20:26] visit the home page for 12.04 documentation [20:26] https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/index.html [20:26] or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam [20:26] On that page, you'll see a few different types of documentaiton [20:26] A desktop guide [20:26] A server guide [20:26] and an installation guide [20:27] our manual could be the first link: 1. "Getting Started Guide" [20:27] One difference between their desktop guide and our manual is that we can't easily redirect the user to read, say, the Empathy help pages for more information. We try to include the most common and useful information directly in our manual. [20:28] godbyk: Right, and we rightly shouldn't. [20:28] In other words, our manual needs to be fairly self-contained instead of merely pointing to other documentation. [20:28] yap [20:28] Our manual assists new folks with the task of navigating a stock installation. [20:28] I'm just poking around their desktop guide, so this may not be representative. [20:29] It appears that their style is very oriented on the how-to. [20:29] Example: “To let other users use your computer, you can either log out, or leave yourself logged in and just switch users. If you switch users, all of your applications will continue running, and everything will be where you left it when you log back in.” [20:29] When they're ready to graduate from "Getting Started," they head to the "Desktop Guide," which could actually be renamed to something like "Complete Documentation" or "Advance Documentation" [20:29] Most of their paragraphs begin with, “To do x, ...” [20:29] Whereas we should be providing a bit more background/discussion instead of just a sequence of steps to follow. [20:30] godbyk: +1 [20:30] +1 [20:31] Having said that, I do think it'd be useful if we explored the topics that they're covering in the desktop and installation guides to see if there's anything that we're missing. [20:31] (Or conversely, anything that they're missing that we think they should add.) [20:31] godbyk: Agreed. [20:31] Agreed [20:31] me too [20:31] Would anyone here be interested in taking up that task? [20:31] That is, doing a comparison between their desktop and installation guides and our manual? [20:32] godbyk: Would it be something each author could do for his or her individual chapter? Perhaps editors could peruse the documentation for their subjects and suggest to authors changes or additions. [20:32] stillnotcool: Possibly, though the info might be scattered around quite a bit. [20:33] Tell you what, I'll take on that task. [20:33] I'll have a look at their guides and see what they cover and what we cover, figure out the overlap and things that each group has missed. [20:33] guys i got to go [20:33] godbyk: That's generous. Thanks for doing it. [20:34] Okay, see you later, c7p. [20:34] cya c7p [20:34] i think this was one of the best meetings ! [20:34] see you all [20:34] bye c7p [20:34] thanks for being here [20:34] same, we got a lot discussed [20:35] Okay, I think we have just a couple more topics and then we'll be finished. [20:35] #topic Screenshot editors [20:35] We've discussed this previously a bit. [20:36] I think that it'd work best if the authors took the initial screenshots (so they can show us what they want), and then we should have one or two screenshot editors who come along afterward and take all the "official" screenshots. [20:36] I think having a couple people taking all the screenshots will help ensure consistency. [20:36] agreed, it would cut down on problems [20:36] What do you guys think? [20:37] Good idea [20:37] godbyk: Sounds easy enough. Writers could just use the built-in screenshot software to give editors the gist. [20:37] Would anyone here like to volunteer to be a screenshot editor? [20:38] If not, I'll send an email to the list and ask for volunteers. [20:38] Okay, I'll email the list. [20:38] We'll need someone who knows LateX I presume [20:39] kereltis: Nope. Just someone who's detail-oriented and can take screenshot with the proper resolution and whatnot. [20:40]