[11:52] <ailo> Got my internet working. And I'm halway at putting together some machines for testing.
[11:52] <ailo> len-dt: Have a look https://plus.google.com/u/0/112189543347229003538/postsv
[11:53] <ailo> I'm also going to add a notebook and a netbook to the mix
[13:12] <len-dt> ailo, What kinds of test cases do you have in mind?
[13:17] <len-dt> I am looking at testing ulatencyd. It should be able to allow putting the audio programs in a low/no swappiness group while leaving other things normal.
[13:49] <ailo> len-dt: I was thinking we do something systematic with testing later. There are some things that you need to have several test cases for, in order to determine what they do in general
[13:49] <ailo> Not only for one machine
[13:49] <len-dt> ailo, yup.
[13:51] <ailo> len-dt: I can offer you ssh access later. Trying to get the thtpd server working, but my gateway isn't very configurable when it comes to dhcp, so when I try to boot with network, I get the gateways dhcp, but when I get to the desktop, I get the dhcp from my server
[13:51] <len-dt> My thoughts have been about defining what an audio program is.
[13:51] <ailo> Sounds deep
[13:52] <ailo> len-dt: What for?
[13:52] <len-dt> I am thinking that I use more than one workspace/desktop when I do audio work.
[13:52] <len-dt> so it seems that the workspace switcher is now audio software
[13:53] <len-dt> What other non-audio SW becomes important in the audio workflow?
[13:53] <ailo> I think it's impossible to determine, and we should not determine what software the user should or will combine
[13:53] <ailo> For whatever purpose
[13:54] <ailo> But let's say the user is asked during install what they will be using the OS for..
[13:54] <len-dt> ailo,  So swappiness needs to be zero for audio work.
[13:54] <ailo> Choosing audio implies you won't be using it to edit movies 
[13:55] <ailo> I'm more in the line that the OS should be configured to work for everyone
[13:55] <len-dt> Does someone who is editting movies what their work to swap out?
[13:56] <ailo> Right now, it's very fast for audio, in general. There are some machines that have problems. Some machines that have problems, we don't know why even
[13:56] <ailo> I'm pretty far away from forming any opinions on swap right now though
[13:56] <ailo> And there's no hurry
[13:57] <ailo> We should put up a plan, document, test, and find out what the data says
[13:57] <len-dt> ailo, Yes, even my old machines don't run out of CPU cycles. They run out of memory though.
[14:00] <len-dt> ailo, why are people trying to install US 11.04?
[14:01]  * len-dt was just checking backlog on #ubuntustudio.
[14:02] <ailo> Probably a misprint
[14:02] <ailo> .04 sounds right. 11.10 would make more sense than 11.04, if someone hadn't realized a new one was out
[14:03] <len-dt> Could be. I thought I had tried install without net without that problem.
[14:03] <ailo> Just realized I need to set up port forwarding for my tftp. Maybe I got it now..
[14:10] <len-dt> ailo, I get the sense that in general people expect the odd glitch while doing audio work.
[14:11] <len-dt> That the odd xrun may show up that seems not to be explained.
[14:14] <ailo> Don't know. I don't read a lot about random xruns though
[14:15] <ailo> Maybe people don't admit it, or figure it was something explainable
[14:18] <len-dt> ailo, I think I am going to break my tweak mode stuff out of the workflow stuff and make it separate.
[14:19] <len-dt> I think it is worthwhile being able to make a quiet machine while recording/performing
[14:22] <len-dt> I think no matter what machine a person has, they are likely to to push it's limits at some time.
[14:24] <len-dt> I would like those limits to be as broad as possible.
[14:33] <len-dt> ailo, I think there are a number of people who may have kernel module issues.
[14:34] <len-dt> Some people just go and buy another machine, but I think that is not always the best answer.
[14:39] <astraljava> It is if they give me the old one.
[14:39]  * astraljava hasn't bought a new computer since '97.
[14:40]  * len-dt has many donated machines too.
[14:53] <ailo> My standpoint on tweaks is that only those should be made default that absolutely will improve something for someone, and will absolutely not make things worse for someone else. Any tweaks other than those should be considered trouble shooting configs
[14:53] <ailo> Since most machines works OOTB as it is, most tweaks are either not that important, or good for troubleshooting
[14:54] <ailo> For those that have real issues, any help is gold
[14:55] <ailo> So, troubleshooting configs are great, if they do solve problems for people
[14:56] <ailo> If adjusting swap is best for everyone, by default, then add that to default settings. If it would make things worse for someone, while solve someone else problems, add it as an option
[14:57] <ailo> And just make sure it is clear what the options do, so that people don't think they will benefit from all of them
[14:58] <ailo> But this is still far from where we are at now
[14:58] <len-dt> I would like to find some memory for my old machine.
[14:58] <ailo> First, test. Then, on basis of the data, figure out how to implement it, if needed
[14:58] <len-dt> I do think that swappiness set to 10 instead of 60 would probably bo good for everyone.
[14:59] <ailo> len-dt: You could write something up about that on the wiki. I still need to go through that myself, in order to know why
[15:02] <len-dt> check out shnatsel's site. It has some good thoughts and a link that explains it really well.
[15:02] <shnatsel> who summons me?
[15:03] <ailo> len-dt: We will still need to document everything we do, and explain why something is good/bad, if we are to suggest changes
[15:03] <len-dt> You were just mentioned... I was pointing to your site.
[15:03] <ailo> I wouldn't want to do the same work twice, if sufficient testing already has been made
[15:03] <shnatsel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq - this is the current state
[15:04] <shnatsel> I think you should contact the kernel team and ask them why they set swappiness to 60 by default
[15:04] <len-dt> swappiness 60 is great for most servers or for a development machine. but low swappiness makes for a much nicer desktop experience.
[15:05] <shnatsel> they've got different kernel packages for desktop and server anyway, so that's not an excuse
[15:05] <len-dt> but swappiness still defaults to 60.
[15:06] <shnatsel> so let's go ahead and ask why it's still that way
[15:06] <shnatsel> also, Ubiquity enables swap to zram when no swap partition is created or found on the system
[15:06] <len-dt> From the page you listed "The default setting in Ubuntu is swappiness=60. Reducing the default value of swappiness will probably improve overall performance for a typical Ubuntu desktop installation. A value of swappiness=10 is recommended"
[15:07] <shnatsel> and I've just discovered a "zram-config" package very similar to my "zramswap-enabler", gotta merge the implementations
[15:09] <shnatsel> my "site", in case you're wondering: http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/ But you'd better read the "Improving OOTB performance" thread on Ubuntu Studio mailing list, it has more real experimental data
[15:09] <len-dt> shnatsel, if I have both zram and a swap partition, is it possible to have some applications use the zram and others default to disk?
[15:10] <shnatsel> len-dt: no idea. Check cgroups swap documentation on TLDP
[15:10] <shnatsel> or elsewhere
[16:00] <len-dt> ailo, Interesting, if I connect a USB audio IF, I can only set latency as low as the internal audio IF.
[16:00] <len-dt> But, if I turn the internal IF off in PA, I can now set the USB IF lower.
[16:02] <ailo> len-dt: Wonder if the latency is really set lower then
[16:02] <len-dt> Unfortunately I can not turn the internal audio IF off in  my bios
[16:03] <ailo> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that though
[16:03] <len-dt> ailo, I suspect PA tries to keep the latency of all its ports the saem.
[16:03] <ailo> "set latency as low as the internal audio IF". What did you mean by that?
[16:03] <len-dt> ailo, I can set my internal IF with jack to run at -p 128 at the lowest.
[16:04] <len-dt> if I plug in a USB IF and use it with jack I can only set -p 128 as well.
[16:04] <ailo> You mean jack won't run at lower latencies than 128 with the USB IF while the internal card is used for PA?
[16:05] <len-dt> but if I configure PA to turn the internal IF off then I can get the USB IF in jack to run at -p 64
[16:05] <len-dt> ailo, yes.
[16:05] <ailo> So, how's the performance at 64?
[16:05] <len-dt> So far seems about the same as at 128
[16:06] <len-dt> The wireless is loaded so the same xrun/minute shows up.
[16:06] <ailo> Ok, so you get that with the USB too
[16:06] <len-dt> Yes. I think it is a wireless HW thing.
[16:07] <len-dt> Acer cheaped out on something to get the unit to be cheaper than everyone else's
[16:07] <ailo> Too big interrupt messages for the network card?
[16:08] <len-dt> No idea. There was already a bug in for this problem and someone else on this irc has mentioned it too.
[16:09] <len-dt> So there are at least 3 people who have seen this.
[16:11] <ailo> I changed my tactics. Instead of booting from network when installing (which I can't do as long as I have all the machines in the same network, since my gateway can't disable its' dhcp), I'll try booting from usb hard disk. I think all of my machines support that.
[16:11] <len-dt> ailo, personally, I would be quite happy to do without wireless to have good audio
[16:11] <ailo> len-dt: I think it's a crude way to fix a problem, but I would be happy to have that option, if I had that problem
[16:12] <ailo> I wouldn't mind adding that as an option to a configuration application, such as Ubuntu Studio Controls. Only, I'd make sure to put it in a trouble-shooting category
[16:13] <astraljava> ailo: Which reminds me, when you wanna talk about that app?
[16:13] <astraljava> Can we set up a work meeting for that?
[16:13] <len-dt> I have changed the bug report. I have added that if I use netmanager to disable wireless the module should reset instead of do constant scan mode.
[16:14] <ailo> astraljava: For now, I have no ideas about it, since we haven't even begun forming docs on testing, which would serve as a blueprint for a good part of it. I only know of one feature I would like to include for sure, and that is administering user realtime privilege
[16:14] <astraljava> ailo: Fair enough. Let's talk more later when we have further plans in place.
[16:15] <len-dt> ailo, did you want to have the config of any "tweak mode" set by the saem app or separate?
[16:16] <len-dt> s/saem/same
[16:16] <ailo> len-dt: It would seem logical to me to have all tweakable options in the same application
[16:17] <len-dt> ok
[16:18] <ailo> If a user would like to set many options at the same time, but only temporarily, I can see the need for a "mode button"
[16:19] <ailo> A "normal mode", and a "tweaked mode"
[16:19] <ailo> For most people a "normal mode" should already be good enough
[16:19] <len-dt> ailo, I had thought of having more than one extra mode, but I am thinking one will be enough.
[16:20] <ailo> If you can tailor the mode, and maybe even save profiles for it, you just need to toggle between two modes
[16:20] <ailo> Someone will like to enable/disable rtirq. Someone will want to disable NM, and so on
[16:21] <ailo> len-dt: I never tried stopping rtirq. Would you like to try it? "/etc/init.d/rtirq stop"
[16:21] <ailo> I don't have it enabled at all right now, since I've booted without threadirqs
[16:22] <ailo> You can monitor the change with : "pd -eo comm,rtprio"
[16:22] <ailo> "ps -eo comm,rtprio"
[16:22] <len-dt> ailo, I haven't got to that yet. Memory and swappiness (and ath9k) seem to have a far greater impact in any of my tests so far.
[16:23] <ailo> len-dt: I was just wondering if that is one option you can change during login
[16:23] <ailo> I guess it should be, since it can be started/stopped
[16:24] <len-dt> My feeling is different from your's on good enough. I think both ideas are correct though.
[16:24] <len-dt> ailo, I don't think at login is the best time to change these things.
[16:24] <len-dt> It keeps the session from being multi-use.
[16:25] <ailo> I don't see why that is a problem
[16:26] <len-dt> Some people want a "normal" computer that they sometimes do audio stuff on. And they should get a good audio experience while having all the rest of their desktop function properly.
[16:26] <ailo> Ok, so there are some possibilies for the mode toggle. Either during the same login, or in worst case, you need to reboot
[16:26] <ailo> len-dt: I don't think the mode is for everyone. Maybe less than 10%
[16:26] <ailo> That has been my standpoint all along
[16:26] <len-dt> Others want a hot audio machine. I have yet to find a change that needs a reboot.
[16:27] <len-dt> As speciality distro I think it is important to cover thet 10%
[16:28] <len-dt> Again I am talking opinion, I am not necessarily correct.
[16:28] <ailo> Because of the small amount of people it will cover, even among pro audio enthusiasts, is why I suggest these are primarily for troubleshooting on machines that behave abnormally
[16:29] <len-dt> But that is also why I like the mode idea as it means the 90% can do nothing and be fine.
[16:29] <ailo> And those who have problems will of course want to fix them
[16:29] <ailo> I only see one reason to have a mode at all. It's when you want to toggle many settings at once
[16:29] <len-dt> Yup.
[16:30] <ailo> Right now, I don't see why someone would want to do that, but I would like to find out
[16:30] <len-dt> I use my laptop/netbook as a normal netbook, I also use it for recording. I have to have a mode change for that to be possible.
[16:31] <len-dt> I do use wireless all the time, but I can't when doing anyhting audio.
[16:31] <ailo> I think a mode toggle might be easier to control, than going through a list of tweakable options each time though, so even if you only change one option with the mode shift, it might still serve a purpose
[16:32] <len-dt> It seems to be easy to do. I am doing it with one click on or off.
[16:32] <ailo> I just want to make sure that the user realizes he shouldn't need it at all, and it's only for those who absolutely need it. The user shouldn't have to do anything. Just plug and play
[16:33] <len-dt> Ok by me.
[16:35] <ailo> I would change my mind, if we find a system tweak that absolutely helps audio operation for most machines, and which at the same time is bad for other things, like video or graphics. If we end up in a situation like that, I would propose to recommend the user to use a mode change to help improve his audio performance
[16:36] <ailo> I wonder if it would have been quicker to copy 50 GB from my usb drive to my internal, and then back, rather than copy from one partitiom to another on the same drive
[16:36] <len-dt> ailo, the problem for me is I do not know how to test video/graphics uses. So while I know that swappiness 0 will help audio, I do not have a clue what it would do for other things. or how to test it.
[16:37] <ailo> len-dt: I guess we will need to find that out :P
[16:37] <len-dt> ailo, we really need someone who does those things to help. It is the big thing missing for me.
[16:39] <astraljava> For so many years I remember there's only been a handful of people who were into graphics/video. I hung out on #cinelerra for a little while, but since that's in a very bad state ATM, I couldn't attract any interest in any of the regulars there.
[16:39] <len-dt> astraljava, are there any webpages that have setup tips for these things?
[16:40] <astraljava> I haven't stumbled upon any, but then I haven't exactly been looking, either.
[16:42] <len-dt> astraljava, so perhaps start with a good strong desktop setup then.
[16:42] <ailo> Another user asked for help on the us channel, but only waited for 4 min
[16:43] <len-dt> ailo, even funnier is they came up under a name and changed it to guest before asking.
[16:43] <ailo> pro graphics and video at least requires a decent graphic card, and also a monitor
[16:43] <ailo> len-dt: Yeah? Why do they do that?
[16:43] <len-dt> Yes, but how does that chaneg any setting we would do?
[16:44] <astraljava> len-dt: Let's talk about that sometimes, I have to go now, though.
[16:44] <ailo> I think both cpu and memory is used extensively, but more so, cpu
[16:44] <ailo> I mean, processing
[16:45] <len-dt> Ya I figured.
[16:45] <ailo> I forget the word, when you for instance make a 3d scene into a movie, what do you call it?
[16:46] <len-dt> rendering?
[16:46] <ailo> That kind of stuff can take a days to process
[16:46] <ailo> Yeah, rendering
[16:46] <len-dt> sound like lots of swap.
[16:47] <ailo> For graphics I think you want a fast cpu, and fast loading
[16:47] <ailo> When you're editing, you want things to move in the same pace as your thoughts
[16:47] <ailo> Same for video editing
[16:48] <ailo> Don't know if you require a lot of RAM
[16:48] <ailo> But, people who do that a lot I'm sure know what hardware they need
[16:48] <ailo> Even though, like for audio, some do it low budget
[16:49] <len-dt> ailo, I think it may be best to see what is needed in the windows world, what the problems are and how we can improve on that.
[16:49] <len-dt> There may be more information around that way.
[16:50] <ailo> One thing I've read is that people want to use linux for video and graphics, but feel they can't because they lack the software for it
[16:50] <ailo> I just recently read about lightworks having a linux version on the way, which would change things on the video side
[16:51] <len-dt> So looking at a win/mac workflow and making sure we have that available and documented is worth while.
[16:52] <len-dt> It is funny, I worked in the TV industry and have a good idea how mauch of this was done (80 to 85 ish) in analogue terms, but not a clue what people do these days.
[16:53] <ailo> My dad said the same thing about cars. He grew up in his fathers shop
[16:56] <ailo> I'm going to install a minimal system on my usb drive and try use that to boot a netinstaller. Just wish I can disconnect it once the installation has started, so I don't need to install one machine at the time
[16:56] <ailo> Going to install them over ssh. Should speed things up when you do 4 at the time
[16:56] <ailo> laterz
[17:00] <len-dt> ailo, I realize you may not see this for a while, but wanted to say it before I forget...
[17:01] <len-dt> Just looking at the other machine that normally gives xrun/minute. and since I turned the internal audio IF off, that problem has gone.
[17:02] <len-dt> I mean turned the internal IF off in PA. 
[17:02] <len-dt> So the PA-jack bridge allows PA to affect jack.
[19:54] <ailo> len-dt: That does make sense, even though one would not want the pa bridge to do anything if not activated
[19:55] <ailo> Finally got all my computers hooked up into the network. Now, I just need to get them installed
[19:57] <ailo> Going to install basic debian servers on each computers, so I can easily install anything from local hard disk on each computer. Will transfer the images through ssh. This way, each new install won't be as painful. Would be great to automate the install even
[19:57] <shnatsel> ailo: there are tools for that in Debian for ages
[19:58] <ailo> shnatsel: Never tried it before
[19:58] <ailo> Never had to install on multiple computers
[19:59] <shnatsel> ailo: from basic "dpkg --get-selections > somefile" on one machine and restoring the same software configurations on others to fully automated installation of the system
[19:59] <shnatsel> ailo: google it then
[20:00] <shnatsel> ailo: image transfer is a very ugly way which is common because it's the only way to transfer Windows. It also works only between identical hardware configurations and only sometimes.
[20:00] <ailo> I'm talking about the installation media
[20:01] <shnatsel> oh yes, there are tools for that too.
[20:01] <shnatsel> several, in fact.
[20:01] <shnatsel> preseed is probably one of them
[20:01] <ailo> I was going to use tftp, but my gateway can't shut off dphcp, so I can never boot into the right one
[20:01] <ailo> I just looked up preseed
[20:02] <ailo> Sounds like that might work for me
[20:02] <shnatsel> preseed is designed for such use cases AFAIR, though I've never used it
[20:02] <ailo> I was first thinking about installing through ssh, but even that is more work then needed
[20:03] <shnatsel> I make Ubuntu LiveCD remasters for mass distribution and installation. Doesn't work quite well, installing on 15 machines was tedious.
[20:03] <shnatsel> ailo: try asking in some Debian channel, or googling. Google surely knows a lot of solutions.
[20:03] <ailo> http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.enhttp://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
[20:04] <ailo> That was a strange paste
[20:04] <shnatsel> you mean http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
[20:11] <ailo> Well, there's a few options to go through, which means I have more work to do tomorrow
[20:11] <ailo> That's all for me today. gn US