=== Pici is now known as Guest55695 === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan [18:05] hullo [18:06] * AlanBell is a few minutes late [18:06] \o [18:07] #startmeeting IRC Team [18:07] Meeting started Sun May 27 18:07:41 2012 UTC. The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [18:07] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: [18:07] Hi [18:07] hi all, who is here for the meeting o/ [18:07] o/ [18:07] o/ [18:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda [18:07] hello [18:08] agenda is there [18:08] o/ [18:08] is there quorum? [18:09] probably not, might have to skip some bits or finish them off outside the meeting [18:09] aw :-( [18:09] #topic Review last meetings action items === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review last meetings action items [18:10] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20120429 is the minutes from last time [18:10] action items for me were to do a call for ops (done) [18:10] and to schedule the UDS session (done) [18:10] yay [18:10] * AlanBell likes done [18:10] #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Open items in the IRCC tracker [18:11] 2 dones == cookie 4 you [18:11] there was an appeal [18:12] Lars Torben Kremer appealed a long term ban, but as there was no supporting information as to why we should do that the appeal was denied [18:13] I'm surprised to be honest that he bothered to appeal [18:13] I didn't think he'd be able to follow the process. [18:13] there is an open appeal too, from mcloy, I closed that yesterday when the matter was resolved, but it appears that the user has reopened it today [18:14] no doubt [18:14] I don't want to discuss that now, just declaring what is in the tracker for this agenda item [18:14] #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council [18:15] there are two bugs now, we closed a bunch last meeting [18:15] bug 892500 [18:15] Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500 [18:15] so this one is the bantracking bots bug [18:15] what do people think of ubottu-fr? [18:16] as a starting base, much much better [18:16] Don't know how to use it yet, but I do like the information it provides [18:16] it is a little more verbose on what is happening than eir is [18:16] the fact that it works with BT, is enough of a reason for me alone [18:16] that is a + for it [18:17] ok, are there any actions you would like me to take on this subject, like removing eir, or getting a plan for it to be merged into ubottu (or the other way round) [18:17] yes, I'd like eir removed [18:17] I would like to see -fr merged into ubottu [18:17] before removing eir [18:17] at the moment we have eir/ubottu/ubottu-fr [18:17] removing eir so it stops managing bans and phases out [18:17] and testing the newbottu [18:17] allowing ubottu/ubbotu-fr to merge in [18:18] the longer we leave eir to manage bans the longer/hardware/more effort it will be to phase it out [18:18] hardware ??? harder [18:18] I'm not familiar with this situation, but would removing eir mean that there are some bans that aren't tracked/expiring properly? [18:18] dax: yes. [18:18] dax: yes, and I've said I will query the eir database to phase them out until it's clear [18:18] dax: which is why I'd like it gone sooner rather than later so there are less entries [18:18] best thing would be to comment all eir bans for #ubuntu and stop using it, letting it finish its work [18:18] IdleOne: you can't stop it while it's in the channel [18:18] ikonia: Indeed. If it's going to happen at some point, earlier is probably better. [18:19] it's never going to finish while it's in the hcannel [18:19] minor sidenote: as already stated in #ubuntu-ops, the #ubuntu-de op team is also discussing ban management, and we'd be interested in results from these tests. Also poke us if we can help somehow. [18:19] ikonia: we can stop commenting on new bans. [18:19] with eir that is. [18:19] anyone want to speak up for eir remaining in #ubuntu? [18:19] IdleOne: that won't stop eir managing the ban [18:20] don't all rush at once [18:20] then how do we phase it out while maintaining a sane ban list? [18:20] IdleOne: you kill it out of the channel and just manually query it until it's #ubuntu list is empty [18:20] perhaps a re-cap of eir's isues would be handy? [18:20] One point here is that we didn't used to have eir, so this is roughly equivalent to the situation when eir was introduced and there were a few hundred bans without expiration set. [18:20] IdleOne: or manually remove the enries from eir [18:21] We managed just fine then. [18:21] true [18:21] removing eir would be a reversable step, nobody is objecting, it has been out of the way in the control channel for some time, there isn't a huge list of bans in it and ikonia will help manage the process of the bans in flight, so I don't see a problem with removing it [18:21] the real value eir brought was the floodbot/excemtion removal [18:21] ok. kill eir soon as ubottu is merged and lets all learn to use the new bot :) [18:21] #action alanbell to sort out removal of eir [18:21] ACTION: alanbell to sort out removal of eir [18:21] so as long as ubottu-fr is able to do that, I don't see a problem with the ban list [18:22] Daviey: do you want the bug number or an explination [18:22] and please start using ubottu-fr more and ask niko for more information/help [18:22] explanation, for the nosey. [18:22] Daviey: sorry, I missed your comment there [18:22] Daviey: bug 892500 has some information on it [18:22] Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500 [18:22] which links to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=%5Beir%5D , which has a list [18:22] Daviey: basically it was rushed into production and doesn't fit in with the current channel needs, eg: doesn't work with ban tracker, noisey on it's notifucations, controlled by freenode so harder to maintain etc etc [18:23] ok [18:23] thanks [18:24] bug 913541 is the other open one, I think pici was looking at that [18:24] Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541 [18:24] I will follow up with pici later in the week [18:24] guessing that will stay in progress for a while [18:25] yeah, just want to get it down to zero, then manage it as an ongoing process [18:25] #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lis [18:25] AlanBell: how long's the list of those now? iirc someone made one and Pici's been contacting folks from it? === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lis [18:25] Can staff remove cloaks even if the user is not on,ine? [18:25] online [18:25] yes [18:25] IdleOne: yes, though in non-adversarial situations like this it's probably better if someone attempts contact first [18:26] Incidentally, my membership expired without me realising it.. I only still have it through inheritance of other groups. :/ [18:26] ooh [18:26] AlanBell: maybe set an end date for it and anybody not contactable gets the cloak removed? dax I agree it is better to try and get in touch first, but this can go on forever if there is no time frame [18:26] that sort of thing does happen, and this process is about sorting that out [18:26] IdleOne: indeed [18:27] we have done things like there was a MOTU who expired from that, but wanted to keep membership, so we just sorted it out [18:27] by checking with the CC and giving the user an IRCC awarded membership [18:28] so that is the kind of thing we can do to resolve the situation, but each one is individual [18:28] anyhow, on to the alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists [18:28] AlanBell: is there anything that can be fed back into the CC that the membership status currently doesn't really mean/do anything [18:28] I have been doing some stuff with launchpad lib [18:28] maybe ask them to work on something to give it value/credability more [18:28] ikonia: The email alias is lost with alomost immediate effect. [18:29] ikonia: it does a number of things, some less obvious than others, but we can talk about that later [18:29] (which is probably more important than a cloak) [18:29] Daviey: much more [18:31] so we have launchpad groups for applying to be an op of a channel, and we have channel access lists [18:31] these are not very well synchronised [18:31] I am suggesting that we do a semi-automatic process to align them, and tidy them up [18:32] AlanBell: didn't Pici do some work around this, ~2 years ago? [18:32] http://paste.ubuntu.com/1003884/ [18:32] is some code that iterates through the groups and generates stuff that can be passed to chanserv to adjust access lists [18:33] http://paste.ubuntu.com/1003857/ would be sample output from it [18:33] I was looking at doing a more intelligent comparison, but it is fine to just pass non-active flags to chanserv, it ignores anything that is already right [18:34] flags #foo bar -sriRfF+votiA is valid, btw [18:34] this does depend on a couple of things, it means that every op will need to have their nickserv account name in their launchpad page [18:34] dax: thanks for that, double the efficiency [18:34] half the lines [18:35] most people do have their primary nick, which for most people is their account name [18:35] AlanBell: lines 93-98 on that output paste look a bit wonky? [18:35] dax: ah, yes I fixed that bug [18:35] output is now like that without the wonky [18:36] chanserv access list. Now with less wonk. [18:37] Daviey: pici did the work on the members thing, I am not aware of anything directly in this area [18:37] AlanBell: so besides all the ops adding their nickserv account name to LP what is needed? [18:37] ah, that must be what i am thinking ok. [18:37] so, what this does is give every op +votiA [18:37] so some people will get a few tweaks to their access [18:38] #kubuntu for example has a wide assortment of flags, for reasons unknown to me [18:38] there is also the option at this time to say that no humans have +F to channels, everyone is the same [18:38] just the ubuntuirccouncil account having founder access [18:38] Some folks have IRC handles from other networks (e.g. OFTC) on their Launchpad. Not sure if that breaks things. [18:39] dax: the code checks for 'freenode' in the network name [18:39] ah, missed that, nvm [18:39] the worst that can happen is that chanserv tells me I am trying to do something on a non-registered nick [18:40] alternatively we could run this and leave the various people with founder flags right where they are [18:40] opinions please . . . [18:40] the worst that can happen is that the nick is, in fact, registered by someone else ;) [18:40] AlanBell: I have no issues for people having founder flags [18:40] dax: yeah, I will be mailing everyone to point that out [18:40] that could be messy [18:40] AlanBell: as long as ubuntuirccouncil has the rights it needs [18:41] dax: and I will manually check for that, it is only a few people who have multiple nicks listed [18:43] any other thoughts on people with founder flags? [18:43] the ubuntu irc council is responsible for channels in the names space [18:43] dunno if this still applies, but the subject of flags in e.g. #kubuntu has been a fun discussion in the past. [18:43] they should have founder flags to the channels, [18:44] dax: good to know, thanks [18:45] yeah, going to need founder flags to run the script and do anything useful with the output I should think [18:45] I'm with ikonia I think the IRCC should have founder on all the channels in the namespace [18:45] I believe the only one I need to sort out is #lubuntu, I will talk to unit193 about that [18:46] IdleOne: yeah, I think that bit's uncontroversial [18:46] A few xubu ones, you don't have any access in -devel [18:46] in that everyone who disagreed with it has been argued with until they stopped by now :P [18:46] Unit193: just the core channels list [18:47] ok, so lets leave people with +F with +F if they are still part of the ops team, and everyone else gets +votiA [18:47] sounds good [18:47] and ubuntuirccouncil gets the full christmas tree of blinking lights across the core channels [18:48] what does +F allow that doesn't allow the other rest of flags? because I think is only that you can't be removed easily from the access list. [18:48] I believe you pop up in some IRC clients as the owner of the channel [18:49] and you can do /msg chanserv help flags to find out more details [18:49] no clients that I've seen. that'd be a bit insane [18:49] +F is just "your channel" you can do what you want [18:49] oh, ok that has been a reason some people have given for wanting +F [18:49] mIRC does it I think, but who cares about mirc anyway [18:50] you can "do what you want" with +* [18:50] I doubt it does it out of the box. Maybe some ridiculous mIRC script does it, iono. Next time someone claims that, I'd be interested in knowing which :) [18:50] /cs info #xubuntu for example. [18:51] ok, so this is something I will progress, and there will be various emails informing people every step of the way [18:51] but anyway. leaving +F people alone would probably be a good way of avoiding possible issues [18:51] I expect I will make some errors and annoy some people who didn't read the emails, but everything that is done in this exercise is reverseable [18:52] I will be making every effort to inform people of what I am doing, down to the lines I am sending to chanserv [18:52] right, lets move on to an item we sadly won't be able to vote on today [18:52] #topic membership applications === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: membership applications [18:53] my point is, if you need the flags for practical use, you need +* and not +F, if you want to see UbuntuIrcCouncil in chanserv info, then yeah. [18:53] for what it is worth. +1 for Fuchs membership [18:53] we have an application, and I would like to give Fuchs the grilling, even though we can't vote today :) [18:53] hi Fuchs, please introduce yourself [18:53] Yes :) Hello everybody, my name is Christian, nickname is Fuchs. I am mostly active on IRC in the german ubuntu channels as an operator, [18:54] and not very active in the english ones. But some people might know me due to other things I do, e.g. being staff. [18:54] I have prepared a wiki page with my contributions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fuchs and some testimonials [18:54] that is indeed a nice wiki page [18:54] the first two being from people from ubuntuusers.de, including an ubuntu member (toddyhb), and the last 3 ones from fellow german IRC ops, two of them also came along today :) [18:55] so who is here shouting for Fuchs? [18:55] * ppq is :) [18:55] I am :-) [18:55] to be honest, it's hard to say anything non-positive [18:55] well that wiki page answers most of the questions I would have around LoCo involvement and general community contribution [18:56] feel free to ask away anyway, I'll be happy to answer :) [18:56] (I left him a testimonial, I'm Benedikt Haus) [18:56] Fuchs: what are your plans for community contribution going forward? [18:56] ppq: then why is your IRC name ircname : Paul Giblock [18:57] AlanBell: with regards to #ubuntu-de: I am currently looking with several persons (including niko) what we could use as a ban management, [18:57] ikonia: you're looking at the wrong /whois [18:57] that's why [18:57] hehe [18:57] Fuchs: do you have any ban managment [18:57] oops, idiot, sorry [18:57] AlanBell: since currently we don't have any. I also started the ubuntuusers.de official IRC presence in the past months (you maybe remember the meeting we had), to have contact with our community on IRC as well [18:57] ikonia: https://launchpad.net/~ppq that's me [18:57] ikonia: currently not, no [18:57] I know Fuchs as always available and very supportive. My English is not so good, but he is very busy at the german Channel with much know-how and very diplomatic in critcal situations. [18:58] ppq: sorry, I got you confused with the guy in #ubuntu-ops, I thought you where hium [18:58] ikonia: eir came up, since I am staffer I already know it. Then niko told me about ubottu-fr [18:58] ikonia: no problem :) [18:58] ikonia: it will be a topic in our next op meeting again, that's why I am also interested in your experience with it [18:59] all too sensible [18:59] ok, that sounds great to me Fuchs, I will discuss with the rest of the IRCC and we will vote on it and get back to you as soon as possible [18:59] AlanBell: great, thank you. You know where you can find me if you need anything else :) [18:59] Did I say I +1 Fuchs for membership [18:59] #topic Any Other Business === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business [18:59] in case I didn't. I do. [18:59] IdleOne: you just did :) [19:00] anyone got anything else they want to raise? [19:00] My children. close this meeting so we can get on with real life again :P [19:00] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [19:00] Meeting ended Sun May 27 19:00:38 2012 UTC. [19:00] Minutes (wiki): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-27-18.07.moin.txt [19:00] Minutes (html): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-27-18.07.html [19:00] there you go [19:00] thanks everyone [19:00] Thank you. [19:00] Thanks, have a nice evening / day [19:01] Bye, have a nice time === yofel_ is now known as yofel