[18:05] <AlanBell> hullo
[18:06]  * AlanBell is a few minutes late
[18:06] <Fuchs> \o
[18:07] <AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC Team
[18:07] <meetingology> Meeting started Sun May 27 18:07:41 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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[18:07] <jokrebel> Hi
[18:07] <AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the meeting o/
[18:07] <dax> o/
[18:07] <IdleOne> o/
[18:07] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[18:07] <Myrtti> hello
[18:08] <AlanBell> agenda is there
[18:08] <Fuchs> o/
[18:08] <IdleOne> is there quorum?
[18:09] <AlanBell> probably not, might have to skip some bits or finish them off outside the meeting
[18:09] <Myrtti> aw :-(
[18:09] <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
[18:10] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20120429 is the minutes from last time
[18:10] <AlanBell> action items for me were to do a call for ops (done)
[18:10] <AlanBell> and to schedule the UDS session (done)
[18:10] <AlanBell> yay
[18:10]  * AlanBell likes done
[18:10] <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
[18:11] <IdleOne> 2 dones == cookie 4 you
[18:11] <AlanBell> there was an appeal
[18:12] <AlanBell> Lars Torben Kremer appealed a long term ban, but as there was no supporting information as to why we should do that the appeal was denied
[18:13] <ikonia> I'm surprised to be honest that he bothered to appeal
[18:13] <ikonia> I didn't think he'd be able to follow the process.
[18:13] <AlanBell> there is an open appeal too, from mcloy, I closed that yesterday when the matter was resolved, but it appears that the user has reopened it today
[18:14] <ikonia> no doubt
[18:14] <AlanBell> I don't want to discuss that now, just declaring what is in the tracker for this agenda item
[18:14] <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
[18:15] <AlanBell> there are two bugs now, we closed a bunch last meeting
[18:15] <AlanBell> bug 892500
[18:15] <AlanBell> so this one is the bantracking bots bug
[18:15] <AlanBell> what do people think of ubottu-fr?
[18:16] <ikonia> as a starting base, much much better
[18:16] <IdleOne> Don't know how to use it yet, but I do like the information it provides
[18:16] <IdleOne> it is a little more verbose on what is happening than eir is
[18:16] <ikonia> the fact that it works with BT, is enough of a reason for me alone
[18:16] <IdleOne> that is a + for it
[18:17] <AlanBell> ok, are there any actions you would like me to take on this subject, like removing eir, or getting a plan for it to be merged into ubottu (or the other way round)
[18:17] <ikonia> yes, I'd like eir removed
[18:17] <IdleOne> I would like to see -fr merged into ubottu
[18:17] <IdleOne> before removing eir
[18:17] <ikonia> at the moment we have eir/ubottu/ubottu-fr
[18:17] <ikonia> removing eir so it stops managing bans and phases out
[18:17] <IdleOne> and testing the newbottu
[18:17] <ikonia> allowing ubottu/ubbotu-fr to merge in
[18:18] <ikonia> the longer we leave eir to manage bans the longer/hardware/more effort it will be to phase it out
[18:18] <ikonia> hardware ??? harder
[18:18] <dax> I'm not familiar with this situation, but would removing eir mean that there are some bans that aren't tracked/expiring properly?
[18:18] <IdleOne> dax: yes.
[18:18] <ikonia> dax: yes, and I've said I will query the eir database to phase them out until it's clear
[18:18] <ikonia> dax: which is why I'd like it gone sooner rather than later so there are less entries
[18:18] <IdleOne> best thing would be to comment all eir bans for #ubuntu and stop using it, letting it finish its work
[18:18] <ikonia> IdleOne: you can't stop it while it's in the channel
[18:18] <dax> ikonia: Indeed. If it's going to happen at some point, earlier is probably better.
[18:19] <ikonia> it's never going to finish while it's in the hcannel
[18:19] <Fuchs> minor sidenote: as already stated in #ubuntu-ops, the #ubuntu-de op team is also discussing ban management, and we'd be interested in results from these tests. Also poke us if we can help somehow.
[18:19] <IdleOne> ikonia: we can stop commenting on new bans.
[18:19] <IdleOne> with eir that is.
[18:19] <AlanBell> anyone want to speak up for eir remaining in #ubuntu?
[18:19] <ikonia> IdleOne: that won't stop eir managing the ban
[18:20] <ikonia> don't all rush at once
[18:20] <IdleOne> then how do we phase it out while maintaining a sane ban list?
[18:20] <ikonia> IdleOne: you kill it out of the channel and just manually query it until it's #ubuntu list is empty
[18:20] <Daviey> perhaps a re-cap of eir's isues would be handy?
[18:20] <dax> One point here is that we didn't used to have eir, so this is roughly equivalent to the situation when eir was introduced and there were a few hundred bans without expiration set.
[18:20] <ikonia> IdleOne: or manually remove the enries from eir
[18:21] <dax> We managed just fine then.
[18:21] <IdleOne> true
[18:21] <AlanBell> removing eir would be a reversable step, nobody is objecting, it has been out of the way in the control channel for some time, there isn't a huge list of bans in it and ikonia will help manage the process of the bans in flight, so I don't see a problem with removing it
[18:21] <ikonia> the real value eir brought was the floodbot/excemtion removal
[18:21] <IdleOne> ok. kill eir soon as ubottu is merged and lets all learn to use the new bot :)
[18:21] <AlanBell> #action alanbell to sort out removal of eir
[18:21] <meetingology> ACTION: alanbell to sort out removal of eir
[18:21] <ikonia> so as long as ubottu-fr is able to do that, I don't see a problem with the ban list
[18:22] <ikonia> Daviey: do you want the bug number or an explination
[18:22] <AlanBell> and please start using ubottu-fr more and ask niko for more information/help
[18:22] <Daviey> explanation, for the nosey.
[18:22] <AlanBell> Daviey: sorry, I missed your comment there
[18:22] <AlanBell> Daviey: bug 892500 has some information on it
[18:22] <dax> which links to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=%5Beir%5D , which has a list
[18:22] <ikonia> Daviey: basically it was rushed into production and doesn't fit in with the current channel needs, eg: doesn't work with ban tracker, noisey on it's notifucations, controlled by freenode so harder to maintain etc etc
[18:23] <Daviey> ok
[18:23] <Daviey> thanks
[18:24] <AlanBell> bug 913541 is the other open one, I think pici was looking at that
[18:24] <AlanBell> I will follow up with pici later in the week
[18:24] <IdleOne> guessing that will stay in progress for a while
[18:25] <AlanBell> yeah, just want to get it down to zero, then manage it as an ongoing process
[18:25] <AlanBell> #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lis
[18:25] <dax> AlanBell: how long's the list of those now? iirc someone made one and Pici's been contacting folks from it?
[18:25] <IdleOne> Can staff remove cloaks even if the user is not on,ine?
[18:25] <IdleOne> online
[18:25] <Fuchs> yes
[18:25] <dax> IdleOne: yes, though in non-adversarial situations like this it's probably better if someone attempts contact first
[18:26] <Daviey> Incidentally, my membership expired without me realising it.. I only still have it through inheritance of other groups. :/
[18:26] <AlanBell> ooh
[18:26] <IdleOne> AlanBell: maybe set an end date for it and anybody not contactable gets the cloak removed? dax I agree it is better to try and get in touch first, but this can go on forever if there is no time frame
[18:26] <AlanBell> that sort of thing does happen, and this process is about sorting that out
[18:26] <dax> IdleOne: indeed
[18:27] <AlanBell> we have done things like there was a MOTU who expired from that, but wanted to keep membership, so we just sorted it out
[18:27] <AlanBell> by checking with the CC and giving the user an IRCC awarded membership
[18:28] <AlanBell> so that is the kind of thing we can do to resolve the situation, but each one is individual
[18:28] <AlanBell> anyhow, on to the alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
[18:28] <ikonia> AlanBell: is there anything that can be fed back into the CC that the membership status currently doesn't really mean/do anything
[18:28] <AlanBell> I have been doing some stuff with launchpad lib
[18:28] <ikonia> maybe ask them to work on something to give it value/credability more
[18:28] <Daviey> ikonia: The email alias is lost with alomost immediate effect.
[18:29] <AlanBell> ikonia: it does a number of things, some less obvious than others, but we can talk about that later
[18:29] <Daviey> (which is probably more important than a cloak)
[18:29] <ikonia> Daviey: much more
[18:31] <AlanBell> so we have launchpad groups for applying to be an op of a channel, and we have channel access lists
[18:31] <AlanBell> these are not very well synchronised
[18:31] <AlanBell> I am suggesting that we do a semi-automatic process to align them, and tidy them up
[18:32] <Daviey> AlanBell: didn't Pici do some work around this, ~2 years ago?
[18:32] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1003884/
[18:32] <AlanBell> is some code that iterates through the groups and generates stuff that can be passed to chanserv to adjust access lists
[18:33] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1003857/ would be sample output from it
[18:33] <AlanBell> I was looking at doing a more intelligent comparison, but it is fine to just pass non-active flags to chanserv, it ignores anything that is already right
[18:34] <dax> flags #foo bar -sriRfF+votiA is valid, btw
[18:34] <AlanBell> this does depend on a couple of things, it means that every op will need to have their nickserv account name in their launchpad page
[18:34] <AlanBell> dax: thanks for that, double the efficiency
[18:34] <IdleOne> half the lines
[18:35] <AlanBell> most people do have their primary nick, which for most people is their account name
[18:35] <dax> AlanBell: lines 93-98 on that output paste look a bit wonky?
[18:35] <AlanBell> dax: ah, yes I fixed that bug
[18:35] <AlanBell> output is now like that without the wonky
[18:36] <IdleOne> chanserv access list. Now with less wonk.
[18:37] <AlanBell> Daviey: pici did the work on the members thing, I am not aware of anything directly in this area
[18:37] <IdleOne> AlanBell: so besides all the ops adding their nickserv account name to LP what is needed?
[18:37] <Daviey> ah, that must be what i am thinking ok.
[18:37] <AlanBell> so, what this does is give every op +votiA
[18:37] <AlanBell> so some people will get a few tweaks to their access
[18:38] <AlanBell> #kubuntu for example has a wide assortment of flags, for reasons unknown to me
[18:38] <AlanBell> there is also the option at this time to say that no humans have +F to channels, everyone is the same
[18:38] <AlanBell> just the ubuntuirccouncil account having founder access
[18:38] <dax> Some folks have IRC handles from other networks (e.g. OFTC) on their Launchpad. Not sure if that breaks things.
[18:39] <AlanBell> dax: the code checks for 'freenode' in the network name
[18:39] <dax> ah, missed that, nvm
[18:39] <AlanBell> the worst that can happen is that chanserv tells me I am trying to do something on a non-registered nick
[18:40] <AlanBell> alternatively we could run this and leave the various people with founder flags right where they are
[18:40] <AlanBell> opinions please . . .
[18:40] <dax> the worst that can happen is that the nick is, in fact, registered by someone else ;)
[18:40] <Tm_T> AlanBell: I have no issues for people having founder flags
[18:40] <AlanBell> dax: yeah, I will be mailing everyone to point that out
[18:40] <IdleOne> that could be messy
[18:40] <Tm_T> AlanBell: as long as ubuntuirccouncil has the rights it needs
[18:41] <AlanBell> dax: and I will manually check for that, it is only a few people who have multiple nicks listed
[18:43] <AlanBell> any other thoughts on people with founder flags?
[18:43] <ikonia> the ubuntu irc council is responsible for channels in the names space
[18:43] <dax> dunno if this still applies, but the subject of flags in e.g. #kubuntu has been a fun discussion in the past.
[18:43] <ikonia> they should have founder flags to the channels,
[18:44] <AlanBell> dax: good to know, thanks
[18:45] <AlanBell> yeah, going to need founder flags to run the script and do anything useful with the output I should think
[18:45] <IdleOne> I'm with ikonia I think the IRCC should have founder on all the channels in the namespace
[18:45] <AlanBell> I believe the only one I need to sort out is #lubuntu, I will talk to unit193 about that
[18:46] <dax> IdleOne: yeah, I think that bit's uncontroversial
[18:46] <Unit193> A few xubu ones, you don't have any access in -devel
[18:46] <dax> in that everyone who disagreed with it has been argued with until they stopped by now :P
[18:46] <AlanBell> Unit193: just the core channels list
[18:47] <AlanBell> ok, so lets leave people with +F with +F if they are still part of the ops team, and everyone else gets +votiA
[18:47] <IdleOne> sounds good
[18:47] <AlanBell> and ubuntuirccouncil gets the full christmas tree of blinking lights across the core channels
[18:48] <m4v> what does +F allow that doesn't allow the other rest of flags? because I think is only that you can't be removed easily from the access list.
[18:48] <AlanBell> I believe you pop up in some IRC clients as the owner of the channel
[18:49] <AlanBell> and you can do /msg chanserv help flags to find out more details
[18:49] <dax> no clients that I've seen. that'd be a bit insane
[18:49] <ikonia> +F is just "your channel" you can do what you want
[18:49] <AlanBell> oh, ok that has been a reason some people have given for wanting +F
[18:49] <IdleOne> mIRC does it I think, but who cares about mirc anyway
[18:50] <m4v> you can "do what you want" with +*
[18:50] <dax> I doubt it does it out of the box. Maybe some ridiculous mIRC script does it, iono. Next time someone claims that, I'd be interested in knowing which :)
[18:50] <Unit193> /cs info #xubuntu   for example.
[18:51] <AlanBell> ok, so this is something I will progress, and there will be various emails informing people every step of the way
[18:51] <dax> but anyway. leaving +F people alone would probably be a good way of avoiding possible issues
[18:51] <AlanBell> I expect I will make some errors and annoy some people who didn't read the emails, but everything that is done in this exercise is reverseable
[18:52] <AlanBell> I will be making every effort to inform people of what I am doing, down to the lines I am sending to chanserv
[18:52] <AlanBell> right, lets move on to an item we sadly won't be able to vote on today
[18:52] <AlanBell> #topic membership applications
[18:53] <m4v> my point is, if you need the flags for practical use, you need +* and not +F, if you want to see UbuntuIrcCouncil in chanserv info, then yeah.
[18:53] <IdleOne> for what it is worth. +1 for Fuchs membership
[18:53] <AlanBell> we have an application, and I would like to give Fuchs the grilling, even though we can't vote today :)
[18:53] <AlanBell> hi Fuchs, please introduce yourself
[18:53] <Fuchs> Yes :)   Hello everybody, my name is Christian, nickname is Fuchs. I am mostly active on IRC in the german ubuntu channels as an operator,
[18:54] <Fuchs> and not very active in the english ones. But some people might know me due to other things I do, e.g. being staff.
[18:54] <Fuchs> I have prepared a wiki page with my contributions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fuchs   and some testimonials
[18:54] <AlanBell> that is indeed a nice wiki page
[18:54] <Fuchs> the first two being from people from ubuntuusers.de, including an ubuntu member (toddyhb), and the last 3 ones from fellow german IRC ops, two of them also came along today :)
[18:55] <AlanBell> so who is here shouting for Fuchs?
[18:55]  * ppq is :)
[18:55] <Myrtti> I am :-)
[18:55] <ikonia> to be honest, it's hard to say anything non-positive
[18:55] <AlanBell> well that wiki page answers most of the questions I would have around LoCo involvement and general community contribution
[18:56] <Fuchs> feel free to ask away anyway, I'll be happy to answer :)
[18:56] <ppq> (I left him a testimonial, I'm Benedikt Haus)
[18:56] <AlanBell> Fuchs: what are your plans for community contribution going forward?
[18:56] <ikonia> ppq: then why is your IRC name ircname  : Paul Giblock
[18:57] <Fuchs> AlanBell: with regards to #ubuntu-de: I am currently looking with several persons (including niko) what we could use as a ban management,
[18:57] <Myrtti> ikonia: you're looking at the wrong /whois
[18:57] <Myrtti> that's why
[18:57] <ppq> hehe
[18:57] <ikonia> Fuchs: do you have any ban managment
[18:57] <ikonia> oops, idiot, sorry
[18:57] <Fuchs> AlanBell: since currently we don't have any.  I also started the ubuntuusers.de official IRC presence in the past months (you maybe remember the meeting we had), to have contact with our community on IRC as well
[18:57] <ppq> ikonia: https://launchpad.net/~ppq that's me
[18:57] <Fuchs> ikonia: currently not, no
[18:57] <jokrebel> I know Fuchs as always available and very supportive. My English is not so good, but he is very busy at the german Channel with much know-how and very diplomatic in critcal situations.
[18:58] <ikonia> ppq: sorry, I got you confused with the guy in #ubuntu-ops, I thought you where hium
[18:58] <Fuchs> ikonia: eir came up, since I am staffer I already know it. Then niko told me about ubottu-fr
[18:58] <ppq> ikonia: no problem :)
[18:58] <Fuchs> ikonia: it will be a topic in our next op meeting again, that's why I am also interested in your experience with it
[18:59] <ikonia> all too sensible
[18:59] <AlanBell> ok, that sounds great to me Fuchs, I will discuss with the rest of the IRCC and we will vote on it and get back to you as soon as possible
[18:59] <Fuchs> AlanBell: great, thank you. You know where you can find me if you need anything else :)
[18:59] <IdleOne> Did I say I +1 Fuchs for membership
[18:59] <AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
[18:59] <IdleOne> in case I didn't. I do.
[18:59] <AlanBell> IdleOne: you just did :)
[19:00] <AlanBell> anyone got anything else they want to raise?
[19:00] <IdleOne> My children. close this meeting so we can get on with real life again :P
[19:00] <AlanBell> #endmeeting
[19:00] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sun May 27 19:00:38 2012 UTC.
[19:00] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-27-18.07.moin.txt
[19:00] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-27-18.07.html
[19:00] <AlanBell> there you go
[19:00] <AlanBell> thanks everyone
[19:00] <IdleOne> Thank you.
[19:00] <Fuchs> Thanks, have a nice evening / day
[19:01] <jokrebel> Bye, have a nice time