[00:36] <rafaviana> hello, good night!
[00:37] <rafaviana> I'm currently trying to get my ubuntu to recognize my notebook's Disk reader/writer drive. But I'm out of luck
[00:37] <rafaviana> I'll be glad if someone can give me some tips
[00:38] <directhex> rafaviana: you mean a burner? what have you tried?
[00:39] <rafaviana> hey, I have tried looking for drivers
[00:39] <rafaviana> I'm currently on a Vostro 33000
[00:39] <rafaviana> oops
[00:39] <rafaviana> 3300
[00:40] <rafaviana> Let me get the drive model
[00:40] <rafaviana> TSSTcorp DVD+-RW TS-U633F
[00:41] <rafaviana> When I put in disks, I was hoping they would be read out of the box
[00:41] <rafaviana> It's an ubuntu 12.04 installation
[00:42] <rafaviana> directhex: yes, it's a burner
[00:42] <directhex> rafaviana: audio discs, or data discs?
[00:43] <rafaviana> tried both
[00:43] <rafaviana> dvd movies, audio disks and data disks
[00:43] <directhex> rafaviana: if you go into nautilus (the home folder icon on unity), you don't see the disc listed on the left next to your hard drive, when you've inserted it?
[00:43] <rafaviana> the drive pops open when I push the button, and the disk even spins
[00:44] <rafaviana> No, it doesn't show up there
[00:44] <rafaviana> let me give you more details
[00:45] <rafaviana> This ubuntu is currently running off of an external HD, and it was installed into this HD from another PC
[00:45] <rafaviana> I'm afraid the driver for the burner may have not been installed or something
[00:46] <directhex> it's not a driver issue.
[00:46] <rafaviana> ok
[00:49] <rafaviana> directhex: do you have a suggestion for what I should do next?
[00:50] <directhex> i'm trying to think of suggestions which are appropriate for your level of experience
[00:50] <rafaviana> alright
[00:51] <rafaviana> I've fiddled a bit with terminal commands
[00:52] <directhex> can you try "sudo mount /dev/sr0 /mnt" with a data disc (i.e. not an audio cd) in the drive?
[00:52] <rafaviana> alright
[00:55] <rafaviana> directhex: it says the device /dev/sr0 doesn't exist
[00:56] <directhex> hmph
[00:56] <directhex> and scd0 ?
[00:56] <rafaviana> ok, hold on
[00:57] <rafaviana> directhex: same
[00:57] <directhex> hm
[00:57] <directhex> is your cd drive bay removable? can you remove & reconnect?
[00:58] <rafaviana> no, it's integrated
[01:00] <directhex> i wonder if it's powered.
[01:01] <rafaviana> I guess it is, because it spins the disk
[01:01] <rafaviana> and it opens after I push the button
[01:02] <directhex> i'm going to go to bed now.
[01:02] <rafaviana> directhex: alright man, thanks for the help
[01:03] <rafaviana> directhex: I'll keep trying here
[01:03] <rafaviana> directhex: good night!
[01:03] <directhex> rafaviana: you know you won't get many replies at 2am, right?
[01:03] <rafaviana> yea, I'm in a different time zone hehe
[01:04] <rafaviana> anyhow, thanks for the effort
[05:48] <AlanBell> morning all
[06:57] <czajkowski> aloha
[06:58] <MartijnVdS> howdy
[07:31] <DJones> Morning all
[07:57] <kvarley> I know it's a security risk
[07:58] <kvarley> But what's the easiest way to make it so my user account can read and write to /var/www ?
[08:00] <Azelphur> kvarley: it's not a security risk if you do it right
[08:00] <Azelphur> kvarley: what I usually do, is make everything in /var/www in the "www-data" group, then add my user to the www-data group
[08:00] <Azelphur> and chmod g+s /var/www so that all new files created are in the www-data group by default
[08:00] <kvarley> Azelphur: Long time now see =] Ah, ok, that seems reasonable =]
[08:00] <Azelphur> :)
[08:02] <daubers> Morning
[08:05] <dwatkins> hi folks
[08:15] <MooDoo> hello all
[08:20] <gordonjcp> morning
[08:25] <popey> bug 1005433
[08:26] <czajkowski> videobugs++
[08:34] <diplo> Morning all
[08:53] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[08:58] <gord> my imapfilter now filters away new mailing lists that i get subscribed to automatically without my intervention, gonna get down to inbox 0 some day!
[08:59] <czajkowski> heh
[09:07] <brobostigon> whats the general opinion of the playbook. ?
[09:08] <popey> dead
[09:09] <brobostigon> i am just curious to havbe a play with qnx, than the the hw.
[09:12] <popey> i recall playing with qnx probably over 10 years ago on a floppy disk they used to put out as a promo of how lean their OS was
[09:12] <popey> http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html
[09:12] <gordonjcp> popey: yup
[09:13] <gordonjcp> I think they still have a single-floppy demo
[09:13] <gordonjcp> it was surprisingly usable
[09:13] <brobostigon> popey: i tried that also, it was very impressive.
[09:13] <gordonjcp> if they had a commercial desktop version I'd probably have bought it
[09:13] <brobostigon> gordonjcp: now that would be cool.
[09:15] <gordonjcp> it was fast and stable, even on a single floppy
[09:15] <brobostigon> gordonjcp: and nice and slim and speedy.
[10:15] <oimon> anyone using gnome classic? have a weird issue
[10:16] <popey> do you mean gnome fallback?
[10:16] <oimon> when i click on another window, chromium hops to the bottom of the screen
[10:16] <oimon> popey, yes
[10:16] <oimon> ah, not just chromium but all windows
[10:16] <oimon> well pidgin too
[10:17] <oimon> gonna log off again
[10:19] <oimon> hmm wonder if it's an incompatibility with plank dock
[10:26] <oimon> using docky instead, seems better now
[10:29] <kvarley> Getting permission denied when I try and write a file using PHP code. I have set apache2 to have the web root in my home folder, how can I give it permissions?
[10:33] <kvarley> Nvm, got it. Was a simple group issue. Added the correct groups for www-data and it works.
[10:39] <davmor2> morning all
[10:47] <dogmatic69> o/
[10:47] <jmp_> g
[11:00] <davmor2> popey: is uupc down
[11:00]  * popey checks
[11:03] <davmor2> popey: is it down for me is struggling
[11:03] <popey> yeah, working on it
[11:11] <popey> davmor2: should be back
[11:11] <davmor2> popey: yay
[11:20] <directhex> http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/u7onz/iama_mono_maintainer_in_debian_and_ubuntu_ama/
[11:34] <daubers> Managing my email has become significantly easier since I switched back to mutt
[11:37] <brobostigon> ok, this is weird, wifi connects fine, try to ping out, nothing, traceroute, nothing. i then go up to my dad, try ping on his machine, and it pings out.
[11:52] <diplo> Good read directhex , seems a fair bit of support
[11:55] <directhex> might've gotten a different reaction in /r/linux
[11:55] <directhex> might cross-post for the lulz
[11:55] <brobostigon> is using ping -I reliable. ?
[11:56] <popey> do you have multiple interfaces up brobostigon ?
[11:57] <brobostigon> popey: yes, i am connected to our routers wifi, and tethered via my mobile, trying to work out, why the adsl is messing around.
[12:21] <jacobw> afternoon
[12:27] <czajkowski> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/198576  oh dear
[12:29] <jpds> czajkowski: Haha?
[12:30] <czajkowski> jpds: there are some interesting questions in my queue toady
[12:30] <jpds> czajkowski: Feels like what I get everyday.
[12:30] <ali1234> seriously??
[12:31] <ali1234> he accidentally installed ubuntu?
[12:31] <gordonjcp> he accidentally the whole thing
[12:31] <ali1234> i know windows users are famous for just cliicking through installers without reading anything at all but come on
[12:31] <gordonjcp> ali1234: it's easy to do by accident
[12:31] <czajkowski> jpds: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/198556
[12:31] <gordonjcp> you only need to click about a dozen "OK" buttons and enter a username and password
[12:32] <gordonjcp> and set up your partitions
[12:32] <popey> wubi
[12:32] <popey> many fewer questions
[12:32] <ali1234> ha, wubi was always a bad idea
[12:33] <DJones> czajkowski: I read that as he was installing ubuntu on his iphone
[12:33] <gordonjcp> wubi just always seemed like the bastard child of mulinux and ubuntu
[12:33] <czajkowski> DJones: I did too as well
[12:33] <gordonjcp> an ill-starred coupling if ever there was one
[12:53] <jacobw> lol
[12:56] <gord> i installed ubuntu by accident 8 years ago and still can't get out! halp!
[13:05] <kvarley> lol
[13:05] <DJones> gord: Don't worry, it'll be EOL anyway
[13:06] <Daviey> gord will be EOL'd? oh noes.
[13:15] <jacobw> 8 years is pre 4.10 :)
[13:16] <gord> maths is difficult on a monday :(
[13:17] <gord> or it feels like eight years, take your pick
[13:21] <czajkowski> hmmm I've not had a single tea all day today
[13:22]  * diplo is on about his tenth
[13:22] <diplo> :(
[13:22] <davmor2> czajkowski: that's why you are so quiet then you should do it more often
[13:23]  * czajkowski ppeeers at davmor2 
[13:23] <czajkowski> yes dear
[14:07] <czajkowski> anyone got a contact who's involved in U3 in Manchester ?
[14:08] <davmor2> czajkowski: try the mlug
[14:09] <brobostigon> i have found a weird bug, when i ping out, over the wifi, i get huge lag. i am on my tablet, same wifi, no lag. and when i tether my mobile via usb, also no problem.
[14:09] <czajkowski> davmor2: I know they re on the Ubuntu uk list as they have U cubed events :/
[14:10] <brobostigon> any test suggestions ?
[14:12] <davmor2> brobostigon: is this on a laptop
[14:12] <brobostigon> davmor2: yes, eeepc
[14:13] <davmor2> brobostigon: what kinda wifi is it and is it plugged in?
[14:14] <brobostigon> davmor2: wpa2, and power plugged in, no ethernet.
[14:15] <davmor2> brobostigon: no what wifi card is in the eeepc you have sorry
[14:16] <brobostigon> davmor2: atheros ar242x/ar542x
[14:20] <davmor2> brobostigon: possibly an issue with the driver for the card, I'm pretty sure there is an app similar to top but for networking that might give you more info other than that try the regular channels like askubuntu, wiki, forums for that card on 12.04 and see if anyone has a fix for it or has reported it
[14:21] <brobostigon> davmor2: ok, thanks. i have tried another wifi usb adapter, and get the same thing, so i dont think it is limited to driver.
[14:22] <davmor2> brobostigon: unless the usbadapter has the same chip in it
[14:23] <brobostigon> davmor2: let me look.
[14:23] <davmor2> brobostigon: I had the issue while my system is unplugged from the mains
[14:23] <davmor2> but it only ever effected me once
[14:24] <brobostigon> davmor2: the other adapter is a rtl8187l
[14:38] <brobostigon> davmor2: i htink i have narrowed it down abit, because if i disble the atheros, and use only the other adator, is does behave abit better. but not aswell. so i think it could be difinate to the atheros drivers.
[14:49] <gord> bbc news on top form again ;) http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-28-bbc-news-mistakes-halo-unsc-logo-for-un
[14:54] <Azelphur> lmao
[14:54] <funkyHat> ⢁D
[15:50] <brobostigon> i think the bug i found earlier is new, i have found nothing on the kernel bug tracker, not launchpad.
[15:50] <brobostigon> nor*
[15:59]  * daubers has just been given whiskey from Japan
[15:59] <daubers> sorry, whisky (no e in this one)
[16:00] <MartijnVdS> daubers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_saLrADKqNM ?
[16:00] <daubers> MartijnVdS: http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-2941.aspx
[16:00] <MartijnVdS> daubers: I only know that one (from Lost in Translation) :)
[16:00] <oimon> i have backports repo enabled, but only v0.85 gets installed ...why's that? http://paste.ubuntu.com/1011494/
[16:00] <daubers> heh :)
[16:01] <oimon> ^^ trying to install v0.91 of gnome-do
[16:01] <MartijnVdS> oimon: you might need to specify you want a backport
[16:01] <MartijnVdS> oimon: because of default pinning
[16:03] <oimon> MartijnVdS, oh thanks. how?
[16:03] <MartijnVdS> oimon: debian or ubuntu backports? :)
[16:03] <oimon> software centre is ebnabled
[16:03] <oimon> ubuntu
[16:03] <MartijnVdS> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
[16:03] <MartijnVdS> apt-get install packagename_here/distro-backports
[16:04] <MartijnVdS> so oneiric-backports
[16:04] <MartijnVdS> or precise-ba[Dckports
[16:04] <MartijnVdS> etc.
[16:04] <oimon>  sudo apt-get install gnome-do/precise-backports
[16:04] <oimon> sweeet/ thanks
[16:31] <stilia-johny> hi there!
[16:31]  * stilia-johny is anyone that know about opencv?
[16:49] <jacobw> stilia-johny: i can't see an irc channel or a mailing list referenced on their website
[16:49] <jacobw> stilia-johny: just a yahoo group
[16:52] <MartijnVdS> A group of yahoos then?
[16:52] <jacobw> presumably :)
[17:51]  * popey thinks gord might want to vote for this T-shirt to made. http://www.threadless.com/submission/426127/Boba_Fett_BAMF
[18:02] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Tony] Cookie monster - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/05/28/cookie-monster/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=cookie-monster
[18:02] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Ubuntu Accomplishments Web Gallery: Django Developers Needed! - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/05/28/ubuntu-accomplishments-web-gallery-django-developers-needed/
[18:38] <Azelphur> still got issues lol
[19:08] <jacobw> Azelphur: what's up?
[19:09] <Azelphur> uhh good question, I have no recollection of typing that or any idea why I typed it
[19:09] <Azelphur> maybe it was a wrong window and I didn't realise...weird
[19:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyone got a "sorting" algorithm? I have a set of data (csv) with an id column and a parentid column. There may be multiple levels of parent-child relationship. I need to get the data ordered so that the "top-level" parents come first.
[19:20] <ali1234> b-tree?
[19:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> I'm not even sure if there is a name for what I am trying to do. Is that what a b-tree is?
[19:21] <ali1234> not really
[19:21] <ali1234> i'm not 100% clear on what you mean
[19:21] <ali1234> actually, i'm not 100% clear why you want that
[19:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> So I have a shedload of companies in a csv file.
[19:22] <TheOpenSourcerer> they have an id and some have a parent id (a company within a company like a department for example.)
[19:22] <TheOpenSourcerer> the parent id is the id of another row in the csv
[19:23] <ali1234> so you want to sort the items by depth in the tree
[19:23] <jacobw> you want to sort by depth?
[19:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> Dunno? DO i?
[19:23] <ali1234> yes
[19:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> sorry Do I?
[19:23] <ali1234> yes you do :)
[19:23] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: You want to sort based on the colour of the logo?
[19:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-)
[19:24] <jacobw> penguin42: that hurt my brain just then :p
[19:24] <ali1234> so, my question is why do you want to do this?
[19:24] <penguin42> jacobw: I didn't assume any of his previous statements about his CSV had any implication on what he wanted to do with it!
[19:25] <jacobw> :)
[19:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> Because the application I to which I am sending this data, really doesn't like it when a row wants to have a parent that doesn't exist yet.
[19:25] <ali1234> i see, fair enough
[19:25] <ali1234> so you don't actually need what you originally asked for :)
[19:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> DOn't I?
[19:26] <ali1234> you just need to make sure that a given node is always after it's parent
[19:26] <ali1234> so the way you do this is load all the items then walk the tree depth first (which is the easiest way) outputting the items
[19:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK - And is there a name for that kind of sort?
[19:26] <ali1234> no, cos it isn't a sort at all
[19:26] <ali1234> it's just depth first tree walking
[19:27] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: Construct a column that is currentrow-parentcolumn, and sort on it
[19:27] <penguin42> hmm - can you do that?
[19:27] <ali1234> i don't understand that
[19:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> penguin they are not numerical like that.
[19:27] <penguin42> thinking about it, I'm not sure I do now :-)
[19:28] <ali1234> what language?
[19:28] <jacobw> so what determines the parent relationship?
[19:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> I have it as a csv, Don't really care about language but as I am using Talend a java routine would be helpful. But know I know what it is called I google for it ;-)
[19:29] <ali1234> this is what you need to do: load all the items one by one into a dict/hash/associative array/ whatever your language calls it
[19:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks.
[19:29] <ali1234> indexed on the ID
[19:30] <ali1234> then iterate the items and build a tree structure from it
[19:30] <ali1234> basically that means for each item, add it to it's parent
[19:30] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: alternatively do a multi-pass import
[19:30] <ali1234> if no parent add it to a special root node
[19:31]  * jacobw really wants to do a CS degree sometime
[19:31] <AlanBell> so import once, some will fail, import again (don't import successful imported rows) and more will succeed, keep going until the number of imported records matches the number you wanted to import
[19:31] <ali1234> then starting at the root node output the first child. terminate on leaf nodes etc
[19:31] <ali1234> AlanBell: yuck
[19:31] <AlanBell> yeah, yuck, but simple and effective for a once only data load
[19:32] <ali1234> not really. how do you tell if any failed?
[19:32] <ali1234> what if the software just bombs out horribly?
[19:32] <AlanBell> doesn't matter, you just keep going until no more additional rows get added
[19:32] <ali1234> ow
[19:32] <ali1234> what if it just adds duplicates?
[19:33] <AlanBell> well don't add duplicates :)
[19:33] <jacobw> that's not good for time complexity
[19:33] <AlanBell> you can then export the whole thing and compare against the original data
[19:33] <ali1234> argh
[19:33] <AlanBell> depends what time you are optimising, computer time or human time
[19:34] <jacobw> ali1234's method would run in linear time for the number of items
[19:34] <ali1234> human has to sit and do it too
[19:35] <jacobw> the duplicate problem is already a counter example requiring a new operation for each item
[19:35] <jacobw> anyhow, as long it works for the person concerned it's good :)
[19:35] <AlanBell> and something that should probably be easy/already done
[19:35] <AlanBell> anyhow, it is just one possible strategy
[19:35] <jacobw> yeah, i would think this a common requirement
[19:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> One would have thought so...
[19:36] <ali1234> what value is used when there's no parent?
[19:37] <jacobw> are there any items with a non existant parent?
[19:37] <ali1234> there must be at least one
[19:37] <Laney> it could be cyclic
[19:37] <ali1234> it could be
[19:38] <ali1234> but that would make it impossible to import
[19:38] <ali1234> at least with alanbell's method :)
[19:38] <jacobw> yeah, what i mean is do all items without parents have a property that only items without parents have or do they have some other unpredictable property
[19:39] <ali1234> it's csv so i'm guessing it's just null or 0 or something
[19:39] <jacobw> i.e. is the parent relationship property null or invalid in the propsed tree?
[19:39]  * jacobw hopes so
[19:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> ali1234: Yes. Rows without a parent have a empty value in the "parent" column
[19:42] <ali1234> hmm is a python list inside a tuple mutable?
[19:42] <AlanBell> so sorting by that and doing all the unparented nodes first would get fairly close if most things are not two level nested
[19:43] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1011860/
[19:43] <jacobw> i think so
[19:43] <ali1234> i forgot import sys
[19:44] <ali1234> that should do it though
[19:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> kewl - thanks ali1234
[19:45] <ali1234> you must fix get_ids to actually get the ids
[19:45] <ali1234> they don't need to be numeric though
[19:51] <ali1234> TheOpenSourcerer:  fixed up version http://paste.ubuntu.com/1011869/
[19:51] <ali1234> heh, argh it stil has bugs
[19:52] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1011872/
[19:56] <jacobw> is a python list in a tuple mutable?
[19:56] <ali1234> yes it is
[19:56] <jacobw> how mutable?
[19:56] <ali1234> completely mutable
[19:56] <jacobw> can you add new items or just modify existing items
[19:56] <jacobw> ok, cool :)
[19:57] <jacobw> this makes sense
[20:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> ali1234: That is very cool - thanks a bunch. The output looks perfect.
[20:18]  * AlanBell applauds ali1234 for the not quick-and-dirty solution
[20:18] <AlanBell> but still quite quick
[20:19] <ali1234> i bet it was quicker than importing multiple times and then manually checking everything is ok :)
[20:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> bloody quick actually. >11000 rows in about a second.
[20:19] <ali1234> yeah, not really any reason for it to be slow. there is no sorting at all
[20:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> Plus the 30 minutes or so trying to grok what I was trying to do.
[20:20] <ali1234> well, i suppose the dict is sorted
[20:20] <ali1234> sort-of anyway
[21:11] <czajkowski> evening chaparoos
[21:12] <AlanBell> hullo czajkowski
[21:13] <czajkowski> AlanBell: eh o
[21:13] <AlanBell> eh o lala
[21:13] <AlanBell> :)
[21:15]  * AlanBell wonders if tellytubbies is still going
[21:15] <AlanBell> hmm, stopped in 2002 after 365 episodes, I suspect I have seen them all
[21:16] <ali1234> "in the night garden" is pretty much the same show
[21:16] <AlanBell> yeah, but iggle piggle is more obnoxious
[21:38]  * AlanBell is going to http://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/go-surrey/default.aspx tomorrow
[21:39] <brobostigon> enjoy.
[21:53] <gordonjcp> oh man I love random shuffle play
[21:54] <gordonjcp> "AKAI_AX73_Factory_Patch_Tape.mp3", I love that tune
[21:54] <AlanBell> on heavy rotation
[21:55] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: well yeah
[21:55] <gordonjcp> everybody needs some earsplitting FSK tones
[21:55] <ali1234> sometimes i get transcription mp3s
[21:55] <AlanBell> it is where dubstep came from
[21:55] <ali1234> i dunno who thought up this idea of having the computer automatically index everything
[21:55] <ali1234> but it really sucks
[21:58] <ali1234> i hate when i'm busily working on some code and realise i've been listening to a lecture about obstetrics for 20 minutes
[22:02] <bigcalm_laptop> Ello :)
[22:03] <popey> yo bigcalm_laptop
[22:03] <bigcalm_laptop> Howdy popey :)
[22:05] <bigcalm_laptop> Hotel wifi is costly. Thank goodness for 3g teathering
[22:05] <gordonjcp> ali1234: lol
[22:13] <czajkowski> I've updated my slides from the weekend from flossie if anyone is looking for them http://ubuntuone.com/6g8b4YTsYZVtfLJDbcFsZj - Baby steps into an open source community.
[22:15] <bigcalm_laptop> czajkowski: hello from NI o/
[22:15] <bigcalm_laptop> czajkowski: we're visiting Dublin on Wednesday :D
[22:16] <czajkowski> bigcalm_laptop: evening
[22:35] <ali1234> https://plus.google.com/108463274542772401626/about
[22:37] <shauno> bigcalm_laptop: don't do it.  the sun's made them crazy!
[22:40] <popey> ali1234: who he?
[22:40] <ali1234> popey: he's the king of pascal!
[22:40] <popey> of course
[22:41]  * popey clicks "add to circles"
[22:41] <ali1234> he's a relatively famous usenet guy from back in the day
[22:42] <ali1234> profile says it all really
[22:45] <ali1234> this is where g+ is winning: it appeals to people who rolled their eyes and carried on walking when facebook came out
[22:46] <ali1234> they're not really winning. it's not like they have any competition. all the other social networks are picking up young people who never used the internet before.
[22:47] <bigcalm_laptop> Sleepy time :)
[22:47] <bigcalm_laptop> Toodles!
[22:50] <shauno> g+ is actually pretty nifty, I just don't like that it's google's.  I prefer to keep them at a safe distance.  they already know too much
[22:51] <ali1234> yeah there is that
[22:51] <shauno> apparently not a common stance tho, given the amount of data people are willing to feed facebook
[22:53] <ali1234> old timers are pretty comfortable with the knowledge that every hop between you are the server can see everything
[22:53]  * penguin42 works on the basis that google knows everything else about me so what the heck
[22:58] <directhex> hm......... so, which is preferable: a library in non-free due to a closed-source but distributable component, or the library in main with a chunk of functionality removed by force?
[22:58] <ali1234> depends how important the functionality is
[22:58] <ali1234> but i'd say non-free
[22:59] <penguin42> directhex: Can you split the package so that you get the functionality if you install the non-free bit?
[23:00] <directhex> penguin42, no. it's a core requirement and cannot be split
[23:00] <directhex> well, not cleanly
[23:00] <penguin42> hmph that sucks
[23:00] <directhex> it can be split violently and without caring about the bleeding
[23:00]  * penguin42 hands directhex an axe and gaffer tape
[23:00] <directhex> which is option 2
[23:01] <penguin42> directhex: What's the package, what's the functionality and what's the non-free bit?
[23:02] <directhex> penguin42, monogame, a library which enables development (and porting) of XNA games. fr'example, there's an unofficial port of Terraria to linux via monogame. the closed-source component is the joypad support
[23:02] <penguin42> and in what way is it closed-source - where did it come from under whatlicense?
[23:03] <penguin42> is it closed source and distributable or closed-source hard luck?
[23:03] <directhex> https://github.com/mono/MonoGame/blob/develop/ThirdParty/GamepadConfig/License.txt
[23:04] <penguin42> ah...mono
[23:04] <ali1234> can't it check for the assembly at runtime?
[23:05] <directhex> ali1234, in theory, but it hasn't been written to do it like that, and existing games wouldn't run since they link directly against the lib rather than runtime loading it
[23:06] <penguin42> directhex: so in practice is everything going to want gamepad support and therefor it's useless to have a package without it?  If so then just go with the non-free
[23:06] <ali1234> so how would you make a "free" version? just put in a stub assembly that does nothing?
[23:06] <directhex> ali1234, yep
[23:06] <ali1234> yeah i have to say non-free
[23:06] <directhex> penguin42, well, that's what i'm not sure about.
[23:07] <ali1234> anyone who cares about the difference between free and non-free probably isn't using mono anyway
[23:07] <penguin42> directhex: I'm not a gamer, gamepads sound kind of useful to it though, although I guess some are keyboard/mouse/joystick/mindcontrol playable
[23:08] <directhex> ali1234, i've done a copyright audit on 450 source files tonight. how's your day going? :p
[23:08] <ali1234> i mended a fence
[23:09] <directhex> were the planks Free?
[23:09] <ali1234> i dunno
[23:11] <penguin42> directhex: They had a clause that disallowed you using them to create a walled garden
[23:12] <directhex> penguin42, that doesn't sound very liberal. people should be free to build the gardens of their choice!
[23:28] <shauno> speaking of mono, I enjoyed your AMA directhex :)
[23:29] <directhex> shauno, utterly exhausting!
[23:32] <shauno> it was mildly entertaining to see the questions turn into "how do you sleep at night" as soon as you cross-posted /r/linux too
[23:33] <directhex> 56 replies on /r/opensource, 47 on /r/linux
[23:33] <directhex> that takes a while to type
[23:33] <directhex> even if the answers are short
[23:34] <directhex> /r/linux was obviously going to be a more hostile audience. i expected that.
[23:34] <shauno> well, thumbs up.  it was interesting
[23:41] <directhex> I don't need thumbs, I need upvotes! precious upvotes!