[00:51] <broder> hey, what do i need to do to get an ubuntu cloak other than ask in here? (i'm https://launchpad.net/~broder)
[00:56] <benonsoftware> broder: You're aleady a Ubuntu Member so just wait for a IRC Council member to approve the cloak and add you to the team
[00:57] <broder> benonsoftware: and asking in here is sufficient to get that started?
[00:57] <benonsoftware> Yep
[00:57] <broder> cool
[01:00] <Unit193> AlanBell, Pici, topyli.   Just a little bit of IRCC hilight there.
[01:02] <benonsoftware> There should be a IRCC factoird
[02:41] <Pici> broder: you're all set :)
[02:42] <Unit193> broder: Congrats!
[02:42] <IdleOne> Congrats broder
[02:43] <broder> thanks folks
[02:43] <Pici> congrats on getting a cloak although you've been a dev for a while ;)
[02:44] <broder> haha yeah, i've just been lazy :)
[06:38] <AlanBell> Unit193: benonsoftware: I have ircc on hilight, I suspect the others have too
[06:38] <benonsoftware> Ah
[06:39]  * benonsoftware apologize for the #ubuntu-ops spam
[06:39] <benonsoftware> s/apologize/apologizes/
[06:40] <Unit193> I just did a monkey see, monkey do. :P
[07:26] <bkerensa> =o
[07:32] <AlanBell> people are reminded that today is the deadline for nominations for the remaining IRCC position
[08:16] <topyli> benonsoftware: if you want to be amused, we discussed the factoid at great length, pondering pros and cons. a hour later we decided to add !irccouncil, only to find out it already exists :)
[08:17] <C-4> Hi, I have just been kicked by the op of #ubuntu-bd because I told him that the +O he has assigned to him there is not appropriate for a public channel. How can we solve this?
[08:17] <C-4> I asked that on #ubuntu-ops but some told be to ask here.
[08:17] <C-4> The involved operator ther is Ekushey
[08:21] <topyli> seems to be channel owner
[08:21] <C-4> He is, but also a tyrant.
[08:21] <C-4> He set +V to everyone, I told him that is unnecessary.
[08:23] <C-4> Last few conversation with him:
 But can you state the importance of having +O for you?
 sure, let me show you
[08:23] <C-4> --- Ekushey sets ban on *!*@wikimedia/wikitanvir
[08:23] <C-4> --- You have been kicked from #ubuntu-bd by Ekushey (Bye!)
[08:23] <topyli> such critique doesn't seem like a very good reason for removing the critic. it might be best presented off-channel though
[08:24] <C-4> Who knows.. the fact is I cannot join.
[08:25] <C-4> Ubunutu IRC ops certainly have people to solve dispute like this, right?
[08:25] <C-4> I mean banning someone like this is not justified at all.
[08:28] <topyli> the irc council could at best talk to the owner. it would be best if you could discuss with him and resolve the ban amicably though
[08:28] <topyli> (the ircc prefers to leave as much loco channel governance to them as possible)
[08:29] <benonsoftware> topyli: lol, I only saw a couple lines of it being discussed :P
[08:29] <C-4> That's the point.
[08:29] <C-4> He nuked me at the first sight to show the power.
[08:31] <topyli> is the channel publicly logged?
[08:31] <C-4> Yes.
[08:31] <C-4> You can see the whole discussion we made.
[08:33] <C-4> topyli, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/31/%23ubuntu-bd.html
[08:33] <C-4> See some there.
[08:34] <C-4> Full log is not available now I think.
[08:34] <topyli> yes there's always a little lag
[08:36] <C-4> Topyli, can you help me to find a #ubuntu-* GC?
[08:36]  * benonsoftware thinks topyli is *technically* co-GC :P
[08:37] <C-4> Oh, thanks benonsoftware. :-)
[08:37] <C-4> Sorry, but I am a bit annoyed of such unjustified bans.
[08:38] <C-4> I am not a troll, also a fellow IRC ops in 100+ channels. I was just suggesting for something good and he banned me!
[08:38] <C-4> So disappointing.
[08:38] <topyli> yes the irc channel is the gc for all channels in the ubuntu-* namespace
[08:38] <C-4> That is what I thought. :-)
[08:39] <topyli> if this needs to be escalated however, i'd rather bother the loco council :)
[08:39] <C-4> I talked to a Freenode staff, and he asked me to ask GC about this.
[08:39] <topyli> s/irc channel/irc council/
[08:39] <C-4> Topyli, he is in the logo council I think.
[08:40] <C-4> loco
[08:40] <C-4> I am not sure, he is the only channel contact of #ubuntu-bd on the Ubuntu Wiki also..
[08:40] <C-4> But something has to be done, when the guy leader does not abide the law.
[08:41] <topyli> he's not on the council
[08:41] <C-4> He is not. :-)
[08:54] <trijntje> Hi all, we have someone taunting the ops in #ubuntu-nl, but they are away. Is this the right place to ask for a ban?
[08:54] <trijntje> the user's nick is DAOF
[08:54] <C-4> Trijntje, if that channel has op for Freenode staffs, you could easily ask a staff.
[08:55] <C-4> On #freenode
[08:55] <trijntje> C-4: I did, and they referred me to this channel :P
[08:55] <C-4> Usually ubuntu channel has +o to Freenode staffs.
[08:55] <C-4> Oh, my. Okay. :-P
[08:55] <benonsoftware> trijntje: Sadly staff nor IRCC are on the access list
[08:57] <AlanBell> benonsoftware: that isn't a major problem
[08:57] <trijntje> ah well, I'll just wait till our admins return, or the user gets bored and leaves
[08:58] <haneefmubarak> I have an IRC question relating to Ubuntu, and believe this is where I ought to ask.
[08:59] <haneefmubarak> Anyone awake here?
[08:59] <AlanBell> hi haneefmubarak
[08:59] <haneefmubarak> Hello.
[08:59] <haneefmubarak> So, I was wondering if there ought to be an #ubuntu-defocus channel.
[09:00] <haneefmubarak> I would;t mind starting it, in fact, I just did...
[09:00] <benonsoftware> haneefmubarak: We already have #ubuntu-offtopic
[09:00] <haneefmubarak> *wouldn't
[09:00] <haneefmubarak> ahh...
[09:00] <haneefmubarak> ok
[09:00] <haneefmubarak> How do you make a channel redirect to another?
[09:00] <AlanBell> trijntje: I believe the problem is now fixed
[09:01] <AlanBell> haneefmubarak: don't worry about it, if you just leave #ubuntu-defocus it will disappear
[09:01] <trijntje> AlanBell: indeed, I just noticed
[09:02] <AlanBell> JanC: you might want to consider adding freenode/staff and ubuntuirccouncil to the access list
[09:03] <JanC> I don't think I can do that, but will suggest to those who can  ☺
[09:03] <JanC> actually, they'd better give me the power to do that, as I'm the only one around most of the time...
[09:08] <JanC> AlanBell: DAOF == fujisan BTW
[09:09] <fujisan> JanC:
[09:09] <fujisan> JanC:  not in here
[09:10] <fujisan> leave me alone here
[09:10] <fujisan> anyways back to work bye
[09:17] <elky> fujisan, You've been told to stop that harassment.
[09:27] <k1l_> this guy must be bored as hell. he even comes trolling in our german channels from time to time :/
[09:28] <haneefmubarak> "fujisan"?
[09:28] <k1l_> yep
[09:28] <haneefmubarak> Just curious, what does he do?
[09:29] <haneefmubarak> k1l_: What does he do?
[09:29] <k1l_> offtopic, insults, ...  trolling
[09:29] <haneefmubarak> Give me an example.
[09:30] <haneefmubarak> k1l_: Example?
[09:30] <k1l_> you dont know trolling?
[09:30] <haneefmubarak> I do, but what kind of stuff does he do?
[09:30] <tsimpson> whatever it takes to get a reaction usually
[09:30] <haneefmubarak> Make everyone look stupid, say stupid stuff, paste chains, etc?
[09:31] <k1l_> haneefmubarak: disturb the support channel with unrelated offtopic links to boulevard storys.
[09:31] <haneefmubarak> Boulevard stories?
[09:32] <k1l_> or insult the ops from the ubuntu-nl  channels
[09:32] <haneefmubarak> What's a boulevard story?
[09:32] <k1l_> haneefmubarak: 2012-04-29:15:40:00<         fujisan > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2136265/Dentist-Anna-Mackowiak-pulled-ALL-boyfriend-Marek-Olszewski-s-teeth-dumped-her.html?ICO=most_read_module -_-
[09:33] <haneefmubarak> That's not even valid, lola...
[09:33] <haneefmubarak> *lolz
[09:33] <k1l_> it was at that time
[09:33] <haneefmubarak> I'm guessing you've warned him before, then?
[09:33] <k1l_> he got kicked several times before that. and dont tell me he is not trolling on purpose
[09:34] <haneefmubarak> I see.
[09:34] <jussi> He is a serial troll - been doing it for years
[09:34] <haneefmubarak> So he's essentially acting like an advanced 5 year old...
[09:34] <haneefmubarak> That's a new one: Serial Troll.
[09:35] <haneefmubarak> WARNING: SERIAL TROLLER 'FUJISAN' ON THE LOOSE. LAST SEEN ON #UBUNTU*. REPORT IF SEEN.
[09:35] <haneefmubarak> lolz...
[09:35] <Tm_T> ...
[09:36] <k1l_> most ppl troll because they are bored or mad at sth. but after some time they come back to a regular basis and in our channels most trolls could be unbanned after some time. but he seems to be a very persistant one
[09:37] <haneefmubarak> I can tell.
[09:37] <jussi> I think he just likes the attention :D
[09:37] <haneefmubarak> You all seem quite frustrated. My empathies are with you.
[09:37] <jussi> and my quassels with you :P :P :P
[09:37] <jussi> (sorry, bad joke)
[09:38] <haneefmubarak> lolz...
[09:38] <Tm_T> k1l_: unbanning in his case, you can forget that idea
[09:38] <haneefmubarak> I whoised you after you said it...
[09:38] <haneefmubarak> Well, give him a chance after like two weeks.
[09:39] <Tm_T> haneefmubarak: after all these years?
[09:39] <k1l_> Tm_T: yep
[09:39] <Tm_T> jussi01-nom: nomnomnom
[09:39] <haneefmubarak> Years?
[09:39] <haneefmubarak> Excuse me, but: 'da fuq?'
[09:40] <jussi01-nom> Tm_T: omnomnomnom
[09:40] <Tm_T> haneefmubarak: he has a history (and that's all that needs to be discussed of it I think)
[09:40] <AlanBell> haneefmubarak: we tend to let people back in when they convince us that their behaviour has changed
[09:40] <haneefmubarak> I see...
[09:40] <haneefmubarak> Good policies.
[09:40] <AlanBell> sometimes we tell people to go away for a period of time, but it isn't the time that is important, it is the change
[09:41] <HaneefMubarak> True.
[09:41] <JanC> HaneefMubarak: I gave him about 500 chances, that's been more than enough, I think
[09:42] <HaneefMubarak> I once said 'gay' on ParadoxIRC, and got kb'ed from five separate channels. I apologized, and never did it again… They were fine with me (as usual) after a day or two.
[09:43] <HaneefMubarak> Did he ever recognize what he did and apologize? I wrote up a full-page letter of apology and pm'd it via a forum...
[09:44] <k1l_> as you can just see in the -nl logs he is not stopping his behaviour.
[09:45] <HaneefMubarak> I see.
[09:45] <HaneefMubarak> Do you guys speak dutch in the =nl channel?
[09:45] <HaneefMubarak> Or do you just use english?
[09:46] <k1l_> #ubuntu is the common channel of english
[09:47] <HaneefMubarak> Ah, so you speak in dutch?
[09:47] <HaneefMubarak> Yup.
[09:49] <JanC> HaneefMubarak: he will apologise if he thinks that will get him in again
[09:49] <HaneefMubarak> Has he ever apologized, though?
[09:49] <JanC> but after tens of apologies, they aren't believable anymore
[09:50] <HaneefMubarak> Ah.
[09:50] <HaneefMubarak> Like the Boy who Cried "Wolf!"...
[10:03] <jussi01-nom> Anyoen remember what the irssi script that gives you the channel names is?
[10:03] <Unit193> adv_windowlist
[10:03] <Unit193> ?
[10:04] <jussi01-nom> Unit193: ahh yes, that one, thanks
[14:12]  * Fuchs hands the ircc a pony of appreciation and some cupcakes and says thanks
[14:15] <AlanBell> \o/ a pony
[14:41] <czajkowski> aloha
[14:41] <AlanBell> hi czajkowski
[14:42] <czajkowski> you rang :)
[14:43] <AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/31/%23ubuntu-irc.html background from this channel
[14:43] <czajkowski> AlanBell: am around for the next 10 or so mins before a call
[14:44] <AlanBell> so C-4 has been banned from #ubuntu-bd and feels that it was unreasonable
[14:45] <SergioMeneses> AlanBell, ping
[14:45] <huats> I am there too
[14:45] <huats> so that I can backlog
[14:46] <AlanBell> the general opinion of the ops team seems to be that on the face of it, looking at just those logs, a ban does not look to be fully justified
[14:46] <czajkowski> AlanBell: aye it was a bit much to kick and do that to him tbh, if the loco contact is going to be that unhelpful and ban people it's not really going to help promote the loco
[14:46] <czajkowski> AlanBell: indeed
[14:50] <Pici> Hrm. that log is indeed troubling.
[14:50] <czajkowski> AlanBell: so as ops are ye stepping in to unban the person ?
[14:50] <AlanBell> perhaps we should invite Ekushey here to have a chat
[14:51] <czajkowski> AlanBell: thats up to ye, but given the timezone difference that may be harader.
[14:53] <Pici> Perhaps a ban reversal and an email from the ircc would be good.
[14:53]  * C-4 walks in. Sorry, but I am not sure if it is good to talk between your discussions?
[14:54] <AlanBell> hi C-4
[14:54] <C-4> Hello AlanBell. :-)
[14:54] <C-4> And all. :-)
[14:54] <k1l_> anywhere in the freenode guidelines it says something like "dont give +O because it attracts the attention of ppl who react negatively to authority" which i think was the intention at the mentioning of the +O
[14:54] <AlanBell> I think it would be best to talk to Ekushey before doing anything like removing the ban
[14:54] <AlanBell> C-4 what time is it there now?
[14:55] <C-4> 20:55.
[14:55] <czajkowski> AlanBell: that's yer call not ours to make, but maybe we should follow up with the team
[14:55] <czajkowski> huats: SergioMeneses ^^^
[14:55] <Fuchs> k1l_: it is against our guidelines, yes. but not against policies
[14:55] <C-4> First I need want to say I agree with Pici and Czajkowski here. Additionally..
[14:56] <Fuchs> so from a staff point of view: no rules broken. from a personal point of view: the ban was a very bad idea
[14:56] <k1l_> yep, i didnt want to make it look like its forbidden
[14:56] <Pici> Fuchs: right, those are guidelines, not rules.
[14:56] <Fuchs> assuming we are talking about the #ubuntu-br one, i am here from my mobile, didnt see the paste
[14:56] <k1l_> i just wanted to state, that its a common use not to use +O
[14:56] <C-4> I am in that channel for more than a year, and that channel. People rarely joins in that channel. Specially they join when they got notified about a meeting in Ubuntu-BD mailing list..
[14:57] <SergioMeneses> completly agree whit czajkowski
[14:57] <Pici> Fuchs: ubuntu-bd
[14:57] <Fuchs> it is, and also to not place silly bans like that, but rather catalyze
[14:57] <k1l_> (which should be discussed after the ban-unban thing is resolved imho)
[14:57] <Fuchs> Pici: errm, xes, that. sorry
[14:57] <C-4> For moths it was only me there, and Ekushey most likely runs a server session, so I think he is not around all time / or most of the time, not sure.
[14:58] <Fuchs> so i as an external person would recommend that someone talks to the op about how to represent the project
[14:58] <C-4> Things wer this: It was +V for another guy and +O for Ekushey for a long time.. later today I told that to Ekushey and asked what was the reason of that? He did not reply to me, he just gave voice to other people on that channel but me.
[14:59] <Fuchs> it gives a bit of a bad picture.
[14:59] <C-4> I asked him why voicing everyone now? Then he voiced me and said he is going to have a breakfast..
[14:59] <C-4> Well, later when he came back I told him the facts that +O is not needed there and not even +V.
[14:59] <C-4> And you all saw the log.
[15:00] <C-4> When I said what was the reason to of +O finally, he just said, here is the reason and banned me.
[15:00] <Pici> I think we all agree with you C-4, that this was inappropriate action.
[15:00] <C-4> AlanBell and Topyli know all from the beginning.
[15:02] <C-4> So, while he is being that arrogant (no offence to him, I don't even know him), I think asking his opinion is something he does not deserve, what he deserve is a bit strong tone form IRC council members or GC whatever you say here.
[15:04] <C-4> I did not know any #ubuntu-* GC so I contacted to Freenode staff Jayne (as Freenode staffs have +o there), he said they can act when they are being asked by GCs. So later I found out this channel by poking people in #ubuntu-ops
[15:05] <Pici> C-4: We will be discussing the issue with Ekushey shortly.
[15:06] <k1l_> C-4: honestly (and as an external person) i think its always good to let the other side state its view of the things. because you never know what happend outside the public logs. not meant to be rude to you but history showed its not always that easy as it looks like. so give it a time. its not going to be a 2minutes resolving
[15:07] <czajkowski> C-4: I think you've raised the issue and the ircc will look into it so possibly rehashing the same thing isn't going to change things right now, but rest assured it will be looked into
[15:07] <Pici> czajkowski: thanks :)
[15:07] <C-4> K1l_, totally understandable. This started this morning or so, so I am all ears.
[15:08] <C-4> Czajkowski, thanks!
[15:20] <AlanBell> Ekushey: hi
[15:20] <Ekushey> hi AlanBell
[15:20] <Ekushey> huge channel!
[15:21] <Ekushey> last time i was here, it wasn't this big
[15:21] <AlanBell> yeah, all the IRC operators across the #ubuntu-* namespace are welcome to idle here
[15:21] <AlanBell> and chat and such
[15:21] <Ekushey> wasn't aware of that!
[15:22] <AlanBell> anyhow, we would like to hear a bit about the ban of C-4 from this morning
[15:22] <AlanBell> the log of this channel from today is here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/31/%23ubuntu-irc.html
[15:23] <AlanBell> and from #ubuntu-bd is here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/31/%23ubuntu-bd.html
[15:23] <Ekushey> which part do i need to explain?
[15:23] <AlanBell> any background we are missing really, the ban looks a bit premature based on the log file
[15:25] <Ekushey> well there's no other background to it really... he got upset about the +o and +v on channels and kept on repeating the same thing
[15:26] <Ekushey> if you go through the old logs, you'll see that i don't get myself +o, only when i need to change the topic and so on
[15:27] <Ekushey> he kept as saying the same thing again and again as if i don't know freenode guidelines
[15:28] <AlanBell> the channel flags are set up a little unusually for an Ubuntu channel
[15:28] <Ekushey> which flag exactly AlanBell?
[15:29] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/CreatingChannels
[15:29] <AlanBell> normally we suggest +votiA for operators
[15:30] <Ekushey> this wiki page didn't exist when the channel was created :)
[15:30] <Ekushey> reading it
[15:35] <Ekushey> ok so what changes do you suggest for the channel AlanBell?
[15:36] <AlanBell> Ekushey: well I would suggest removing the ban, and having a think about the flags, we don't have any specific hard rules about them, but there are guidelines
[15:36] <AlanBell> and continue to hang about in this channel :)
[15:38] <Ekushey> he's on 2 more channels of mine and instead of talking to me he comes here to lodge a complaint?
[15:39] <AlanBell> really, I wouldn't worry about that too much, this is the right place for discussing and resolving bans in the channels
[15:40] <Ekushey> he'll het unbanned anyway
[15:42] <Ekushey> but what will happen if i don't, what will happen? just curious to know :)
[15:43] <AlanBell> well we are the group contacts for all of the #ubuntu-* channels so we can trump local operators, we just avoid needing to do so by talking nicely to people ;)
[15:44] <Ekushey> lol
[15:44] <Ekushey> so that is what i get after 6 years of service?
[15:44] <Ekushey> not fair ;)
[15:47] <AlanBell> we should have a long service award
[15:47] <AlanBell> gold watch or something is traditional I think
[15:47] <Ekushey> haha
[15:48] <Daviey> Ekushey: i'd imagine after '6 years service' you'd use your power more carefully. :)
[15:49] <Ekushey> Daviey: he asked for it
[15:50] <k1l_> after 6 years of service you should have taken a look into the freenode guidelines imho.
[15:51] <Ekushey> k1l_: i've read it already
[15:51] <czajkowski> Ekushey: he really didn't to be honest, he wanted his question answered
[15:51] <k1l_> the state that +O or +V is not reommended :/
[15:51] <Ekushey> hi czajkowski :)
[15:52] <k1l_> and that you are running "your channel" in that way is a bad way which comes back to the whole ubuntu community imho. that is why there are guidelines how to setup channels and how to resolve issues when it comes to debatable situations. i think you should know this after 6 years of service
[15:53] <Ekushey> k1l_: let's not take it to another direction
[15:55] <Ekushey> other than meeting times, the only users on the channel are the bots and me
[15:56] <AlanBell> personally I am not massively bothered about the flags, that issue only arose due to the ban for someone questioning the unusual flags
[15:57] <Ekushey> AlanBell: i'm still confused about the flags
[15:57] <czajkowski> on which part?
[15:57] <Ekushey> exactly which flag is incorrect?
[15:57] <Fuchs> Ekushey: freenode does not recommend staying op all the time, and therefore the +O flag.
[15:58] <AlanBell> the +O and +V automatically op and voice on join
[15:58] <Ekushey> ohhh!
[15:58] <AlanBell> +o and +v allow you to get ops and voice from chanserv
[15:58] <Fuchs> Ekushey: you can op up with chanserv whenever you need it, see /msg chanserv help op
[15:58] <AlanBell> so you can do /msg changserv op #ubuntu-bd as and when you need it
[15:58] <Ekushey> I should have clarified about that!
[15:58] <k1l_> Ekushey: case sensitiveness of +o and +O
[15:58] <Fuchs> (if you have the +o flag, that is)
[15:58] <AlanBell> this is what C-4 was trying to tell you!
[16:01] <Ekushey> i mentioned after join here that you won't find in the logs that i get +o for me all the time... only when it's needed to change the topic and voicing someone from time to time
[16:01] <AlanBell> I have to pop out for a bit, if others could assist Ekushey with the flags and such that would be great
[16:02] <AlanBell> I haven't looked at the current setup in detail
[16:05] <Ekushey> last time i got it was less than a day ago to logged out before deoping myself, and the incident that happend today was after i logged in today (i'm using a bnc account)
[16:06] <Ekushey> when someone wants to pickup an issue, they will bring up anything and everything
[16:08] <Ekushey> as if i put on +o for days after days
[16:20] <Ekushey> i need to leave now
[16:22] <topyli> Ekushey: did you remove the ban btw?
[16:23] <topyli> I'm mobile, just having a quick peek here :)
[16:23] <Ekushey> not yet, will do
[16:24] <topyli> ok good
[16:28] <Ekushey> czajkowski: you around?
[19:08] <bkerensa> AlanBell: who went missing in action from the ircc?
[19:11] <Myrtti> huh?
[19:12] <AlanBell> nobody bkerensa
[19:12] <AlanBell> there were 4 applicants for 5 positions at the end of last year, we are filling the empty seat
[19:13] <bkerensa> AlanBell: ah
[19:13] <bkerensa> AlanBell: Well IRCC is doing great work imho :)
[20:02] <k1l> AlanBell: ping
[20:49] <AlanBell> hi
[20:50] <Unit193> Hello.
[20:51] <Unit193> Side note, our LoCo has ReLoCo leads that get +V in channel to show who are the leads, no problems really.
[20:53] <k1l> AlanBell: time fo a qry?
[20:53] <k1l> *for
[20:54] <AlanBell> sure, or pop into #ubuntu-irc-council