/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/01/#juju.txt

roy-feldmanI have software license question regarding charms01:18
roy-feldmanDo charms automatically inherit the AGPL license by calling Juju services?01:19
roy-feldmanUse case 1: I write a charm from scratch01:20
roy-feldmanUse case 2: I write a charm that requires a relation to a charm that has an AGPL license01:21
marcoceppiroy-feldman: charms can be any license, though if it's to be in the charm store it needs to have an approved OSI Open license01:24
roy-feldmanthanks01:25
marcoceppiroy-feldman: https://juju.ubuntu.com/Charms#Charm_Inclusion_Policy_for_Reviewers those are the criteria for inclusion01:26
roy-feldmanThe issue came up at Crowbar presentation I just attended.01:27
roy-feldmanDo you know if adding a relation to a GPL or AGPL licensed charm trigger the copyleft clause?01:29
marcoceppiIANAL, but I don't think AGPL's service clause applies in charm relations since technically charms are communicating with the juju bootstrap and not directly to each charm, but not being a lawyer01:29
roy-feldmanThat make two of us ;-)01:30
roy-feldmanThanks Marco01:30
marcoceppijuju add-relation causes the juju-agent to ping each service individually, and their response is reported to the juju-agent which then passes the information to the other charm and the cycle continues01:30
roy-feldmanPersonally, I will publish my charms with a OSI license, but when I talk to business people the issue inevitable comes up01:31
marcoceppiright, I would check with SpamapS or one of the juju core devs, they are more knowledgeable on things of this nature01:31
marcoceppiI believe it was designed in a way that mixing charms with different licenses wouldn't be an issue01:32
roy-feldmanMusic to my ears01:32
roy-feldmanI am talking to people who are pushing Crowbar, which is comparable to Juju + MaaS01:33
roy-feldmanThey jumped on the issue that Juju was AGPL, so I was put on the "backfoot."01:34
roy-feldmanShort of consulting a lawyer,  can you suggest a way to confirm the licensing status of Juju charms?01:36
marcoceppiTalk to one of the devs, they're all asleep now01:36
roy-feldmanAny suggestions as to which ones?01:37
roy-feldmanjcastro, negronjl?01:38
marcoceppiSpamapS is knowledgeable with license stuff01:39
roy-feldmanThanks again01:45
roy-feldmanCiao01:45
hazmatcharms are any license02:49
hazmatjuju is agpl02:49
hazmatcharms are effectively input outputs to it02:50
hazmattheir is no linking02:50
hazmatin this context, there is little point to it being agpl.. its effectively gpl02:50
hazmathmm.. two charms communicating02:50
hazmatits not really linking by any common definition.. its basically each charm writing its own file and reading different files.02:51
imbrandonyea i think of it as each charm is calling anothers public api02:52
imbrandonin that case its not bound by agpl etc02:52
hazmathttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLOutput02:53
hazmatthat's exactly on point to this topic02:53
hazmatwell the agpl triggers on offering a network service to users02:55
hazmatin this case its the same user deploying the different charms..02:55
imbrandonhazmat / SpamapS : you know how --placement was taken but you can still use palcement: local etc etc etc , i was thinking about that , what if ( not littraly ) but as far as juju is concerned the bootstrapped zk node is a charm too so things could become a subordiate of it, like say a 3rd party api or webui or whatever02:56
imbrandonmaybe show up as the juju-info interface02:58
imbrandonor i dunno , not real well thought out yet02:58
SpamapSimbrandon: thats the eventual plan.. to make "juju" a charm that is no different than the others, except it is deployed without ZK03:51
SpamapSwoot, juju SRU accepted03:58
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vilahi guys, trying to use juju on quantal I encountered an issue where the /var/log/syslog says 'zookeeper respawning too fast, stopped'10:40
viladoes that ring any bell ?10:40
vilanote that I arrived there because after 'juju bootstrap', 'juju status' couldn't connect to my instance (whereas it succeeded in the same environment with a precise image)10:41
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jamespagevila: that would indicate that zookeeper keeps crashing12:51
jamespageplease can you look in /var/log/zookeeper and see if there are any interesting error messages12:51
vilajamespage: yup, but if I then connect via ssh , I can 'service start zookeeper'12:51
vilajamespage: before I start it manually, there is *no* log file there12:52
koolhead11had anyone faced issue with juju creating massive log12:52
jamespagevila, you can try but that message comes from upstart trying to restart it12:52
koolhead11like in few GB12:52
jamespagekoolhead11, I think there is a SRU in progress for that12:52
jamespagekoolhead11,  https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/95831212:53
_mup_Bug #958312: Change zk logging configuration <verification-needed> <juju:Fix Released by hazmat> <juju (Ubuntu):Fix Released> <juju (Ubuntu Precise):Fix Committed> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/958312 >12:53
koolhead11ooh cool. so i am not the only one who hit this bug. cool12:53
koolhead11jamespage: awesome.12:53
jamespagekoolhead11, you could verify the fix in -propose if you like12:53
koolhead11jamespage: i will do that coming week :)12:53
jamespagevila: does it start OK when you do it by hand?12:53
vilajamespage: I scp'ed the log files after a juju bootstrap, install went well AFAICS12:53
koolhead11or can do right away :)12:54
vilajamespage: 'by hand' == ? (I have always use juju so far ;)12:54
jamespagegah - I have to duck out for a bit - vila - I'll be back in about 1.5 hours if you can wait...12:54
vilajamespage: sure, ping me then12:54
koolhead11jamespage: i was looking for you last week12:55
koolhead11trying to get hadoop working, ended up using source from there website12:55
jcastroniemeyer: ah excellent. So much activity that we need another list. mwahaha.13:39
imbrandonand second project :)13:39
niemeyerjcastro: Well, the list wasn't really based on activity13:54
niemeyerjcastro: The project was13:54
niemeyerjcastro: The list is a division of topics for real13:54
* jcastro nods13:54
niemeyerjcastro: Most people interested in using juju would be extremely bored with the topics we've been debating around the port13:54
jcastroSpamapS: so I just saw mhall119's django generating charm16:14
jcastrothing16:14
negronjl'morning16:14
jcastroit's basically awesome.16:14
SpamapSsweet16:21
SpamapSwait, mhall did that?16:21
SpamapSI thought somebody else did one16:21
imbrandonyea there are like 3, but mhall119 is the best so far imho16:21
* mhall119 will do a writeup on it16:24
mhall119first I need to change it's name16:25
mhall119and create an LP project16:25
SpamapSmhall119: its that big?16:36
SpamapSmhall119: would you consider folding it into charm-tools?16:36
mhall119SpamapS: it adds on to Django16:37
mhall119like,  it's a django app you have to add to your project16:37
jcastroSpamapS: reminder ping on cloudopen CFP16:38
SpamapSjcastro: I submitted to cloudopen 2 days ago16:39
SpamapSjcastro: what I'm not sure about is the AWS conference16:39
jcastro<316:39
SpamapSmhall119: can you take me through the workflow?16:39
mhall119SpamapS: sure16:40
mhall119first, you get the code: https://launchpad.net/naguine16:40
mhall119it's a django app, you can  either branch it locally into your Django project directory, or (when I build it) install it system-wide as a package16:41
mhall119then, in your django project,  you run "python manage.py charm --settings naguine"16:41
mhall119and it spits out your new charm into ./charms/precise/<project_name>/16:41
mhall119then you check it for missing dependencies, and add any custom actions you need to install, and also anything custom to do on db-relation-changed16:43
imbrandonsounds perfect for charm tools :)16:44
jcastrocharm create django ./myapp ?16:45
imbrandon:)16:46
imbrandoni bet i could wrangle a php version of the same thing to spit out a skeleton symphony2 php-app , could be the basis for some of those defaults we talked about , in any case i do think mhall119's would make a great addition to charm-tools16:47
imbrandonusing composer.phar  to do the dependancy stuff16:48
SpamapSmhall119: yeah, this should be in charm tools unless you are just against giving up control of it to the whole of ~charmers16:49
SpamapSmhall119: basically 'charm create --django yourapp'16:50
SpamapSmhall119: I'm worried about exploding the ecosystem with many many projects and names and such, so if you'd consider moving it into charm-tools.. I'd consider giving you a gold star sticker. ;)16:50
shazznerquick question: is there a drupal charm for precise? it seems like work was started them stopped16:50
marcoceppi+1 charm tools16:50
shazzner*then16:50
SpamapSshazzner: poke imbrandon16:50
imbrandonmhall119: the cake is a like i dident get the last gold sticker16:51
SpamapSshazzner: he's been sitting on my review comments for about a month :)16:51
imbrandonshazzner: i'm on it, actually i was gettting raely to upload it today16:51
shazznerok cool :)16:51
SpamapSif you contribute16:51
SpamapSto charm tools16:51
SpamapSyou will have cake16:51
imbrandonSpamapS: cuz i went to 716:51
SpamapSthere is cake for drupal charmers16:51
imbrandonheh cake is a lie16:51
shazznerI was thinking of creating a drupal theme sub-charm16:52
imbrandonshazzner: no, for real though , i'd welcome any help etc etc but i'm getting ready to push a big update to it later today, got a little busy post-uds16:52
imbrandonshazzner: perfect16:52
shazznerwe'll see I don't know I've been slacking16:52
shazznerimbrandon: cool :)16:53
imbrandonshazzner: i can show you the interfaces, its made to accept themes and plugins from a seperate charm16:53
SpamapSimbrandon: the 6 one was *SO* close16:53
shazznerimbrandon: awesome, probably just point me to the lp directory16:53
imbrandonSpamapS: i finisied it too16:53
SpamapSso where is it?16:53
imbrandongithub till i get em both done16:54
imbrandon:)16:54
SpamapS<sigh>16:54
shazznerhaha16:54
* SpamapS goes back to bug traiage16:54
imbrandonheh16:54
imbrandonshazzner: just watch the ~drupal namespace, i renamed the druapal 6 one to cs:precise/drupal6 and the 7 one will be the drupal one16:55
mhall119SpamapS: marcoceppi: I'd be happy to get it into charm-tools if you guys can help me16:55
imbrandonshould be pushed here in just a few hours max, likely sooner16:55
shazznerimbrandon: ok awesome16:55
mhall119the problem is that it needs to be run by django, using the same environment as django16:55
shazznerthanks for the quick reply :)16:55
mhall119which often means inside a virtualenv somewhere16:55
imbrandonnp, email me anytime if i'm not on irc16:56
imbrandon<-- @ubutnu.com16:56
imbrandonbah, but spelled right16:56
imbrandonshazzner: btw if your sub charm looks for a webroot interface on the local container relation that will give you the base drupal install16:58
imbrandonso you can dump things in say webroot/sites/all/{themes,libraries,modules/contrib,modules/custom}16:58
imbrandonetc16:58
* shazzner writing this all down16:59
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SpamapSmhall119: thats no problem I think17:01
SpamapSmhall119: We can make 'charm create' do anything to bootstrap the point where you pull in your django app and run the necessary bits to spit out the charm.17:02
SpamapSWe should perhaps do the same thing with rails in parallel so we abstract at the right level17:02
marcoceppiSpamapS: good idea17:09
SpamapSlike maybe it should be '--framework django --app /path/to/my/django/app'17:12
SpamapSand then we can have an alias for that which is 'charm create-django /path/to/my/django/app'17:13
mhall119you'll want an optional --python /path/to/executable/for/python17:13
imbrandoncharm create webapp --framework djgano .....17:13
SpamapSmhall119: perhaps there should be a bootstrap.sh or virtualenv.sh in the dir that is automatically run ?17:13
SpamapSmhall119: seems like there should be a convention for that17:14
mhall119most likely they will already have a local environment setup17:14
imbrandonwith php there is composer.phar that is run from the dir that has packages.json to do the same type of thing17:15
mhall119all the webapp frameworks and languages are so different, do we gain much by trying to make a single "webapp" target?17:15
imbrandonsure, i think thats what makes it perfect for abstration17:16
imbrandontake the hard bits and make it all uniform , i mean we're mostly talking about spitting out skeletons anyhow17:17
imbrandonfor someone to build on, not complete apps17:17
imbrandonPylons RoR Django Symphony2 ZF2 Drupal Wordpress ... etc17:18
mhall119pretty complete skeletons in my case17:18
SpamapSmhall119: they have different mechanics, but they all have the same concepts which can lead to a rich charm. settings, dependencies, etc.17:18
imbrandonmhall119: :)17:19
SpamapSmhall119: you don't need to worry about that though. I'm just suggesting that we should abstract properly so nobody has to duplicate the same process when we add rails, symfony, etc. etc.17:19
mhall119right well, if somebody is going to take on this task, I'll help make the Django part work, but it's more than I'm going to be able to do myself17:20
SpamapSmhall119: there is huge value for a sysadmin to be able to take their process knowledge of charming one type of app, and be able to map it to another framework entirely. HUGE value.17:20
mhall119sysadmins will be doing this? not app developers17:21
mhall119?17:21
imbrandondevops17:22
jcastroimbrandon: SpamapS: hey you guys wanna get together later on G+ to talk debian and RPMs? Or do you prefer to head down and skate?17:29
imbrandoni'm good either way17:31
SpamapSmhall119: well I'd hope that devs and ops would take equal responsibility17:34
SpamapSmhall119: so if the dev knows juju, she does it, and if the ops knows juju, she does it.. ;)17:34
SpamapSjcastro: I'm actually downloading a Debian iso so I can test juju + local provider right now17:35
_mup_Bug #1007544 was filed: test suite assumes /etc/lsb-release will exist <patch> <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007544 >17:44
=== shazzner_otl is now known as shazzner
SpamapScrap.. just realized.. local provider won't work on Debian18:15
SpamapSsince its tied to uptstrat18:15
SpamapSupstart even18:16
SpamapSok, so its EC2 only.. oh well18:16
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imbrandonwhats tied to upstart ? cloud-init ?18:17
SpamapSeverything ;)18:17
SpamapSmachine agent18:17
SpamapSprovider agent18:17
SpamapSunit agaents18:17
imbrandonupstarts packaged for debian isnt it ?18:17
SpamapSsort of18:20
SpamapSits not really usable18:20
SpamapSnor is it allowed for packages to embed .upstart files along side .init files18:20
SpamapSpretty much useless18:20
hazmatwell we don't  have it in packages18:21
hazmatwe generate them and drop them on disk during initialization18:21
hazmatas long as we have cloud-init we can parameterize the startup stuff as needed18:21
hazmatoh.. local provider..18:21
hazmatSpamapS, is cloudinit in debian?18:22
hazmatyeah.. same principle there.. what's the default/recommended init sys for deb?18:22
SpamapSinteresting..18:22
SpamapSdebian has invalid certs18:22
SpamapShazmat: its going into debian, at some point soon18:22
hazmatare they going down the sysd, or are they still doing the old sysv  jaunx18:22
SpamapSdebian is going down the path of most insanity IMO18:23
SpamapS"we'll have ALL init daemons"18:23
SpamapSchoose your own adventure, if you will18:23
hazmatSpamapS, but packages can't support more than one init sys?18:23
SpamapShazmat: that policy is about to change18:23
SpamapShazmat: steve langasek has been working on it for some time, and I've been promising to help him at some point too ;)18:24
shazzner`huh18:25
shazzner`erc is being weird18:25
SpamapSdamn, txaws bug18:27
SpamapSthis seems a bit evil18:27
SpamapSit defaults to reading *.pem from the cwd18:28
SpamapSwith no warning18:28
SpamapSlike "you are running from a dir owned not by you... you may be trusting an evil .pem"18:28
SpamapSok well juju in Debian works fine for EC218:29
* SpamapS uploads18:29
hazmatSpamapS, the new txaws in trunk.. is a bit borked imo18:33
SpamapShazmat: whats broken?18:33
hazmatits basically throwing deprecation warnings on its own internal usage.. so if you use the only available std api, you can get hit with deprecation warnings with no recourse to fix18:34
SpamapShazmat: half-done transition?18:34
hazmatSpamapS, appears so.. i haven't really dug into it.. outside to identify the rev.... 147 afaicr18:35
* hazmat disappears in a puff of busy18:35
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mhall119SpamapS: marcoceppi: if you guys are interested http://mhall119.com/2012/06/charming-django-with-naguine/22:11
SpamapSmhall119: nice22:11
* SpamapS skims.. likes.. reads more22:12
* SpamapS fixes last lintian warning in juju package and hopefully does one final sbuild22:16
hazmatmhall119, sounds like the making of a good generic django charm ;-)22:18
mhall119hazmat: nope22:20
mhall119I was very intentionally not making a generic charm22:20
hazmatmhall119, i remember, just teasing22:21
mhall119ah :)22:21
hazmatjcastro, what do you use for doing screencasts?22:22
jcastrorecordmydesktop22:22
jcastrohazmat: http://askubuntu.com/a/4433/23522:23
hazmatjcastro, danke22:23
SpamapSAlright, juju 0.5+bzr539 uploaded to Debian22:24
jcastro\o/22:24
SpamapSwill sit in NEW queue for probably a week22:24
SpamapSHEY .. juju users.. there's a juju version in precise-proposed22:24
SpamapSPLEASE TEST22:24
hazmatSpamapS, did you test it? ;-)22:24
SpamapShazmat: extensively actually22:25
SpamapShazmat: local does not work, but ec2 does22:25
hazmatSpamapS, awesome.. i think i hit a regression somewhere22:25
SpamapShazmat: local could be made to work if we rip out the upstart bits22:25
hazmatSpamapS, upstart bits?22:25
SpamapSyes, the machine agent running on bootstrap22:25
hazmatSpamapS, or just finish the upstartification ?22:25
hazmatSpamapS, got a minute for a g+?22:26
SpamapSIf we want local to work on non-Ubuntu platforms, we're going to have to abstract upstart completely22:26
SpamapShazmat: cerrtainly22:26
hazmatSpamapS, jcastro invites out22:27
marcoceppimhall119: nice!22:37
SpamapShazmat: FYI, the proposed source bootstraps ok. Deploying stuff now22:56
negronjldone for the day ... enjoy your weekend everyone.23:14
hazmatSpamapS, hmm.. cool23:20
hazmatnegronjl, have a good one23:21
SpamapShazmat: ahh, local provider is broken23:26
SpamapS    elif [ $JUJU_ORIGIN = "proposed"]; then23:29
SpamapSmissing a space23:29
* SpamapS wonders if shell code even cares that it just made him curse23:29
SpamapSshell code don't care. shell code don't give a F***23:30
_mup_Bug #1007657 was filed: proposed origin does not work with local provider <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007657 >23:34
SpamapSalright, brain officially melted.. will have to solve that on Monday23:46

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