[04:35] <Len-nb> Just something to know, at least one of the screen saver we ship has a memory leak. Bug #1007257, It makes low values of swappiness appear to not work. "Blank Screen Only", which we default to is fine.
[04:37] <Len-nb> If someone complains of "swap hell" after the system has run over night, first question should be what screen saver do you use?
[04:39] <micahg> heh, that's an old bug :)
[04:41]  * micahg used to wake up to xscreensaver crashing
[05:29] <Len-nb> micahg, could be, I was testing different values for swappiness... It looked like it made no difference till I changed the screen saver.
[16:08] <scott-work> hi ronoc
[16:09] <ronoc> hey scott-work 
[16:09] <scott-work> i'm good for the next thirty minutes probably if you want to talk
[16:13] <scott-work_> sorry, webchat crapped out on me, ronoc, i'm good for the next thirty minutes probably if you want to talk
[16:15] <ronoc> scott-work, okay cool so what should we use ?
[16:15] <ronoc> hangout, skype ?
[16:15] <scott-work_> hmmm, i'm at work and probably can't do either to be honest :/
[16:15] <ronoc> okay cool
[16:16] <ronoc> so what do you wanna chat about ?
[16:16] <scott-work_> unless you wanted to wait another six hours?
[16:16] <ronoc> scott-work_, can't i'm afraid
[16:16] <scott_work> okay :)
[16:16] <scott_work> i spoke with john at UDS (don't know his last name but he works with artwork) and he mentioned you doing audio work
[16:17] <scott_work> he also mentioned that you commented on the kernel and wanted to get more information on your experience with it
[16:18]  * scott_work apologizes, he is trying to irc while doing work email and office visits concurrently :/
[16:19] <ronoc> scott_work, yes i use avstudio for my performance
[16:19] <ronoc> work
[16:19] <ronoc> just because i need to low latency
[16:19] <scott_work> ah! which has an RT kernel, no?
[16:19] <ronoc> <8ms
[16:19] <ronoc> i use the low latency kernel
[16:19] <ronoc> with firewire
[16:19] <ronoc> echo audio
[16:19] <scott_work> ronoc: have you tried the current kernel we use? the lowlatency kernel in the repos?
[16:19] <ronoc> i haven't to be honest
[16:19] <scott_work> i think holstein has the same firewire device and was getting stupid low latnecies, like 1,45 ms
[16:20] <ronoc> wow
[16:20] <ronoc> okay i can try that
[16:20] <scott_work> yeah, it was crazy
[16:20] <scott_work> i tested with a single core dell machine and onboard sound and got stable 5msec latencies
[16:20] <ronoc> okay cool
[16:21] <scott_work> ronoc: i'll be direct as well, i worry about misconceptions and awareness that are around the real time kernel
[16:21] <scott_work> and also real time vs the lowlatency kernel
[16:21] <ronoc> sure
[16:21] <scott_work> so i admit i'm a little punchy when i hear people talk about them :P
[16:21] <ronoc> fair enough
[16:22] <scott_work> ronoc: but the other thing i wanted to talk about...do you have any suggestions on what we could do to make ubuntu studio better?
[16:22] <scott_work> system settings? include idfferent applications? change background colour?  whatever :)
[16:22]  * scott_work admits he has avlinux but hasn't really played with it very much
[16:26] <ronoc> scott_work, I'll be honest scott_work I would need to work with it for a bit. i haven't had that much time over the past while - I will it try when i get some time.  
[16:27] <ronoc> scott_work, also for this cycle I'm going to be working on other stuff besides audio
[16:27] <ronoc> we have had a big reorg here on the developer
[16:28] <scott_work> ack
[16:29] <ronoc> side
[16:29] <scott_work> but i would love to have direct feedback from someone who is really uses and understands the tools :)
[16:29] <ronoc> aye
[16:29] <ronoc> scott_work, believe me i would love to have all my time working on the audio experience
[16:30] <scott_work> hehe, me too
[16:30] <ronoc> but really my job involves developing software that is spec'd by the design team
[16:30] <scott_work> funnily though i keep getting drawn into the dev side of studio than more as a user :(
[16:30] <scott_work> it's a personality trait...i like organization and organizing things
[16:31] <scott_work> oh, so for example, when Dash or the HUD came about, you (or your team) worked on making it work from a software engineering perspective?
[16:31]  * scott_work is just picking Dash and the HUD because it was the only recent thing he could think of that has been developed
[16:32] <scott_work> i'm also asking about this because of a meeting i had with sabdfl that will probably result in similar work
[16:33] <ronoc> scott_work, yes
[16:33] <ronoc> scott_work, ted did the hud
[16:33] <ronoc> scott_work, i did the indicator-sound
[16:34] <ronoc> and the sound settings changes last cycle
[16:34] <scott_work> that must be rather exciting (if not a little frustrating) stuff to work on
[16:34] <ronoc> scott_work, this cycle it looks like i'll be something entirely different
[16:34] <ronoc> which ?
[16:34] <ronoc> the sound settings ?
[16:34] <ronoc> it was actually
[16:34] <ronoc> hopefully i'll get it upstream
[16:34] <ronoc> once we get an SRU proven
[16:35] <scott_work> in general
[16:35] <scott_work> no, no...the job itself, working on stuff from the design team
[16:35] <ronoc> scott_work, it is to be fair, nice bunch of people to work with
[16:35] <ronoc> and the flexibility to work from home suits me down to a tee
[16:36] <ronoc> i'll give u-studio a go once i free up a partition on my work machine
[16:36] <ronoc> see how it behaves
[16:36] <scott_work> ronoc: hehe, i don't wish to be misspoken, i meant "a little frustrating" not because of the design team as people, but because they might want something that isn't easy to implement, i would presume it is the nature of the work actually
[16:36] <ronoc> indeed it is :)
[16:36] <scott_work> ronoc: captital!  i look forward to any feedback you have :)
[16:38] <scott_work> ronoc: one of the things that i would like to pursue (which resulted in the meeting with mark) is to simplify our user's experience with the desktop....or rather to *remove* the desktop from their experience
[16:39] <scott_work> it is somewhat analogous to juju and charms....
[16:39] <scott_work> people don't deploy wordpress (as an example)
[16:39] <ronoc> cool
[16:40] <scott_work> they deploy a web server, database, and wordpress and then create a database and link them all together via juju
[16:40] <ronoc> so the user can easily swap in and out desktops ?
[16:40] <scott_work> that is a possibility that we have considered ;)
[16:40] <scott_work> considering audio, our users do something similar....they don't run ardour
[16:40] <scott_work> they deploy jack, ardour, any synths, create files (or use templates to start) and then make connections
[16:41] <scott_work> i don't like having to click five buttons and wait minutes to then make connections....can it be automated?
[16:42] <scott_work> can i go to the hud or dash and type 'start recording band' or 'start recording riff' and the result is it will start qjackctl, jackd, ardour, load the right template, and make the right connections
[16:42] <scott_work> ?
[16:42] <scott_work> using "band" and "riff" would cause different templates and connections to be made
[16:43] <scott_work> but in the short term we are also looking at the possibilities of using scripting, docks, "modes" (or switchable desktops as you said), and something that len is developing
[16:43] <scott_work> oops, lunch time, must go!
[16:46] <ronoc> scott_work, jack-session
[16:52] <ailo> scott_work: Check out gladish
[16:54] <ailo> It's sort of a substitute to qjackctl (which also has session support), where you load apps, connect them graphically, and save the whole setup
[16:54] <ronoc> yup another alternative
[16:54]  * ronoc needs to do some merging
[16:54] <ailo> Yeah, alternative
[16:55] <ailo> scott_work: Anyway, it would make sense to have some default setups for users there. It would be an easy way to showcase applications, and create actual workflows
[16:56] <ailo> Even with saved setups, the user might need help understanding what they just loaded, and how to use it though
[16:57] <ailo> It would be great if this session feature could be combined with a workflow toolbar, but someone would have to code it
[16:58] <ailo> Right now, I don't think there's any other way of starting apps with gladish, but to use commands
[17:00] <ailo> It would be nicer if you could just start apps from any menu, and use the session software to save a snapshot of whatever jack apps are active and connected
[17:02] <ailo> AFAIK no jack session controlling software will save any active applications, if they were not started from the jack session capable application
[17:04] <ailo> That's the only downside for me, I think, with current session soft
[18:03] <scott_work> ronoc: ailo: i have looked into both of those, however they are both either not as pervasive as i suggested nor as fully implemented as they would need to be
[18:03] <scott_work> but further, i would like to implement such a system beyond just audio
[18:03] <scott_work> what about film work or graphical or photography or e-books
[18:04] <scott_work> ailo: from what i have learned, gladish can restart applications and remake connections on saved project, but with only a select subset of the available applications we ship
[18:05] <scott_work> e.g. you cannot restart ardour at this point i believe, but you can with qtractor
[18:09] <scott_work> but let's be honest and direct, my framework suggestion, while being highly extensible, would be also require appreciable changes across a vast array of applications, and is certainly not something that will be completed soon (if at all)
[18:10] <scott_work> exposing things on dbus could allow this to happen, but it would require buy in from all the developers, which is probably not likely to happen. especially if you read "discussion" between paul davis and nedko, authors of jack-session and ladish repsectively
[18:11] <scott_work> so, it might be that a "short term solution", or essentially a "proof of concept" methodology might be required, even if it doesn't use the same methodology or mechanics as _the_ long term solution (whatever it may be)
[18:52] <ailo> scott_work: Ardour works fine, as long as you start it with the right command
[18:52] <ailo> Like, "ardour2"
[18:53] <ailo> Or you mean, not the same things are supported for ardour as for qtractor?
[18:53] <ailo> Oh, you said restart
[18:53] <scott_work> yes, i believe it will start fine but cannot be restarted automatically as qtractor can be
[18:53] <scott_work> yes :)
[18:54] <scott_work> for those who are curious, here is a demo video from the ladish website: http://ladish.org/wiki/demovideo
[18:54] <ailo> scott_work: It loads, but not the project in use. 
[18:54] <scott_work> it shows the restarting everything
[18:55] <ailo> Funny Finnish background music
[18:57] <scott_work> the video shows it loading the project, but that may be because hydrogen was set to load the last project by default
[19:00] <ailo> scott_work: The only downside with Ardour not auto loading its project is that you need to do that step manually, but all the connections you've made between the apps, including Ardour are reconnected once you've chose the project you are using
[19:01] <ailo> I don't know why I'm writing so badly right now..
[19:01] <ailo> Anyway, that is how it seems. You load the Ardour project manually, but the connections are persistant between loads
[19:02] <ailo> Can't say I'm overly thrilled with the looks and practices of (g)ladish, but there isn't anything better out there for this 
[19:08] <ailo> scott_work: I don't think the number of apps are that select, aside from the apps not autoloading their projects
[19:10] <scott_work> ailo: nedko shows "compliance levels" http://ladish.org/wiki/levels and i thought there was a list on the website that showed current compliance per applications
[19:10] <scott_work> but it appears taht it may be tied to only the version of gladish
[19:13] <ailo> scott_work: Ok, so perhaps they haven't implemented project loading yet
[19:13] <ailo> I had no idea what the runlevels did tbh until now. I just tried saving GIMP, and that worked fine
[19:14] <ailo> The current version only has runlevels 0 and 1 AFAIK
[19:14] <ailo> It's still quite usable
[19:15] <ailo> It would be possible to make scripts to open apps in order, have them connect in some way, and load projects for showcasing though
[19:16] <ailo> But that would not be for saving sessions, only showing thenm
[19:34] <ailo> scott_work: Some apps will load the project by using an argument, which is perfectly possible to do from ladish
[19:35] <ailo> scott_work: So, that would work with ardour. 
[19:36] <ailo> In this way, at least showcasing workflows would be perfectly seemless when loading them
[19:37] <ailo> scott_work: If you want to implement actual usable workflows in practice for Ubuntu Studio, I just don't see any better way than to use gladish
[19:37] <ailo> I don't use it myself, since I don't use more than one application most of the time, so I haven't been much interested in learning about it
[19:38] <ailo> Also, I think many who are used to their methods might overlook the benefits it has
[19:39] <ailo> To start a project with ardour, you just add the filepath to the project as an argument: ardour2 /path/to/my/projectdir
[20:31] <scott_work> ailo: interesting!  sorry for the delay, been busy at work
[20:33] <ailo> scott_work: I was just looking into capturing desktop video to do a similar thing showing how to create the studio, do the connections, and reload it. Since each application may have its own way of loading a project, you need to supply each with their own project argument. It's not optimal, but since connections are persistent, I would say it's fully functional
[20:35] <ailo> scott_work: I'll add a howto to the community wiki later, that explains this procedure. 
[20:35] <ailo> That should be a good way to start documenting this possible way to tackle workflows
[21:07] <ailo> Might be best to start making video tutorials in general
[21:14] <scott_work> ailo: what i would like to do during this cycle is to really talk about how to approach work flows and how we can make it easier to use before deciding on a particular methodology
[21:14] <scott_work> s/use/users
[21:15] <ailo> scott_work: There's only two things that can help. 1. Documentation 2. Software Tools
[21:16] <scott_work> hehe, but everyone has ideas :)
[21:16] <ailo> 1. we can do. 2. we either code, or give feedback to coders
[21:16] <ailo> It would seem smartest to help develop those apps that are already there
[21:18] <ailo> Also, what we have is what we have. So, we just need to figure out how to use it
[21:21] <ailo> Realistically, to have actual usable workflows for next release (at least for audio), it has to be by using jack session software
[21:24] <ailo> I don't know what dbus can do right now, when it comes to universal session management. Perhaps someone is doing some work on such a piece of software right now? It would be handy for non audio workflows
[21:25] <ailo> The best would be to combine it all into something almost invisible, so that you just press "save", and whatever you have up is going to reload next time.
[21:25] <ailo> And surely it's possible, if you code it
[21:26] <ailo> Until then, I'd go with gladish. And for non-audio workflows, I'd just use documentation (videos would be handy)
[21:27] <ailo> I could do some examples for audio, using gladish, and documenting both with video and howtos
[21:28] <ailo> Those could serve as examples possible implementation
[21:28] <ailo> I'll want to finish the web site first - the feature tour will take a bit of time
[21:35] <len-dt> ailo, Is there any reason ladish _can't_ do things other audio? At least starting up a group of tools...
[21:35] <ailo> len-dt: I guess not
[21:36] <ailo> It's just that it's also used to start/stop jack, which is not called for when doing strictly non-audio workl
[21:37] <len-dt> I have the gui part of a runlevel switcher just about working. It shows up as an item in the systray the idea being that the icon in the systray changes depending on what mode/runlevel  the user is in.
[21:38] <len-dt> ailo, Ya, starting jack all the time is not optimal... it could be a pain if the workflow (or background music) was using pulse....
[21:58] <scott_work> ailo: i'm not sure that jack-session is the right application to use for automation, ladish provides functionality that jack-session doesn't
[21:58] <scott_work> ailo: i'm not sure what jack-session provides that patchbay doesn't actually, functionality wise that is
[21:59] <scott_work> i hope to test some of these in the coming weeks and draw a sharp contrast between them
[21:59] <scott_work> furthermore, i think the ultimate goals of ladish far exceeds the goals of jack-session
[22:00] <scott_work> len-dt: i'm not sure run levels and modes are the answer, i'm not sure they are not the answer either, but i would really like to run through the strengths and weaknesses of all the various ways we can improve work flows and user experience
[22:01] <scott_work> len-dt: ailo :  i had also though about a "work flow" app where you would select the work flow (perhaps from a pull down list) and then it shows you each a box for each step of the documented process
[22:02] <scott_work> not that each step will be used each time, so you don't have to select a particular application for that step, but there will be choices for the steps you do want to perform (i.e. qtractor or ardour for a DAW)
[22:02] <scott_work> hit the next button and maybe it could allow you to make connection or load a patchbay or template file
[22:03] <scott_work> it's just an idea, but it would tedious to create all the data files for that for the standard work flows and possible applications
[22:03] <scott_work> but again, if we started with audio it might be easier to step through it
[22:03] <scott_work> but it's not THE answer, just a possible answer
[22:09] <len-dt> scott_work, runlevels are designed to allow different machine configurations. With run levels and upstart/init almost all system side resources can be delt with in one place with one command.
[22:09] <scott_work> i was given an idea to look into QML and profiles from a guy at UDS
[22:10] <len-dt> It used to be very common to have runlevel 2 be a text/terminal mode and RL 3 ran X
[22:10] <scott_work> i haven't a clue what QML and profiles are, but he seemed to think i should know about them
[22:10] <scott_work> ah, len-dt i am starting to understand that more
[22:10] <len-dt> To be honest What would be nice would be something to do the same in userland
[22:14] <scott_work> indeed, it would be possible, but very laborious, to effect a similar thing adjusting menus, desktops, etc
[22:15] <len-dt> scott_work, there are not that many things to do in userland really, The big thing for tweaking is unbridging PA/jack
[22:15] <scott_work> i think we should include ardour template for a limited scope of uses as a "hidden" feature
[22:15] <scott_work> len-dt: you're thinking only of audio, aren't you?
[22:15] <scott_work> s/template/templates
[22:16] <len-dt> I am thinking of modes as separate from workflows just now. I would think the templates are a workflow thing.
[22:19] <len-dt> For video/graphics workflows, a gui that allows a startup button/selection that starts all the apps in a workflow in the right position and right workspace and right screen (if there are more than one) might be a start for this cycle scott_work 
[22:20] <scott_work> len-dt: please keep in mind we need to be careful about our expectations regarding new applications against a particular cycle
[22:20] <scott_work> len-dt: even if we had a new application completed right now, there is no guarantee that it would be accepted into the repository in time to ship for this cycle
[22:21] <scott_work> unless you "hide the weinee" by including new functionality into an existing package,  the application needs to undergo a review, include security i believe
[22:22] <len-dt> scott_work, Ok, most of this can be done with script though. Using apps that are already in the repo.
[22:22] <ailo> scott_work: When I was referring to jack session, I meant ladish
[22:24] <len-dt> ailo, I am somewhat confused about the difference :-/  This is because I haven't got that far to actually use either.
[22:24] <ailo> I haven't much investigated this either
[22:25] <scott_work> ailo: ah!
[22:26] <scott_work> len-dt: ailo: yes! it is confusing. i had a "discussion" (edged towards argument before i cried off) about the two where we each held contradictory ideas about them both
[22:26] <scott_work> and unfortunately, documentation seems to be horribly scarce regarding jack-session
[22:27] <ailo> How does it work, when you set the desktop to load the last saved session? Isn't that one way to save workflows? 
[22:28] <len-dt> scott_work, I had the saem thing with ulatencyd, I commented that I thought the documentation was poor, and got the response back that it seemed like lots. But I guess one has to understand much more kernel stuff than I do.
[22:29] <ailo> I guess there's one thing that you might not want - having all applications be saved for a session (you might not want to save chat soft, web browser, etc
[22:29] <len-dt> ailo, yes, but if you have a two part process, tracking and mixdown for example and want to switch between the two it isn't saved
[22:29] <ailo> len-dt: I meant for non audio software
[22:29] <scott_work> ailo: interesting, i hadn't thought about that...xubuntu was doing that for me which was kinda frustrating but i never thought about applying to what we are doing
[22:30] <scott_work> ^ desktop restoring session
[22:30] <len-dt> If we could "save" more than one setup it would be good.
[22:30] <scott_work> okay, i gots to go pick up kids and go home
[22:31] <len-dt> bye.
[22:31] <scott_work> i'm close to having a computer setup at home that i'll be leaving on all the time with irc on it too
[22:31] <len-dt> Yea!
[22:31] <scott_work> i'm toying with using screen and irssi so i can ssh to it from where
[22:31] <ailo> scott_work: That's what I use
[22:31] <scott_work> oh...
[22:31] <ailo> Took a couple of days to get used to
[22:32] <scott_work> okay, so i need to make sure i have my router forwarding a particular port then
[22:32] <scott_work> then set up sshd to listen to that port
[22:32] <ailo> port 22 is default for ssh
[22:32] <scott_work> set up and understand how to use screen :P
[22:32] <scott_work> set up and learn how to use irssi :P
[22:32] <scott_work> then profit!
[22:32] <scott_work> oh, i mean use it
[22:32] <scott_work> i think i'm going to start blogging more also :)
[22:33] <ailo> Learning irssi might take a while, but I could help you with some configs
[22:33] <ailo> Just to get you started
[22:35] <ailo> holstein aught to be a wizard at that though
[22:37] <scott_work> okay, i'm going for reals now  :)
[23:32] <ailo> I got this done today. https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/
[23:32] <ailo> Just need to do the same for video and graphics