| ailo | len-dt: I wonder how much one could do to control ladish | 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| ailo | Might be something worth investigating for your workflow panel app | 00:05 |
| len-dt | ailo, Ya, a workflow app needs a rethink. What I had done so far gave a workflow specific menu/panel. I don't think that really is that much of a help beyond the main menu. | 00:13 |
| ailo | len-dt: It might be possible to use the same components that Gladish uses, and maybe automate some things a bit more. | 00:14 |
| ailo | It already has all you need to control jack | 00:15 |
| ailo | If one would like to be really ambitious, one could incorporate PA as well | 00:16 |
| len-dt | Does it control jack better than qjackctl? | 00:17 |
| ailo | Don't think it has more features, other than the session part | 00:17 |
| ailo | Perhaps it doesn't get the same bug as qjackctl, when stopping jackdbus | 00:18 |
| ailo | Need to test it more | 00:18 |
| len-dt | It was the bug I was wondering about. | 00:18 |
| ailo | For the average user, the control panels are a bit more informative than you'd need them to be | 00:18 |
| holstein | ailo: https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/ is very nice! | 00:19 |
| ailo | holstein: Thanks. If you find something badly written, or missing, please do tell. I don't really like adding text to pages like that | 00:19 |
| len-dt | ailo, from your picture of gladish on that page, it looks like it does some patchage stuff too. | 00:21 |
| ailo | len-dt: I would think it's the same code | 00:22 |
| ailo | At least I recognize it from a few other apps | 00:22 |
| len-dt | same author then? | 00:22 |
| len-dt | Maybe same tool kit | 00:22 |
| ailo | I think falktx uses that too for one of his apps | 00:22 |
| ailo | Generally, starting applications and saving them could be done almost identically to how Gladish does this, but only do it from the panel | 00:26 |
| ailo | Just that you can't save the projects that are in use. Only connections for the most part | 00:27 |
| ailo | I would prefer another interface for doing jack settings. One which is much easier to read for novice users | 00:27 |
| len-dt | Seems more confusing to set up jack. | 00:27 |
| * len-dt means more confusing than qjackctl | 00:28 | |
| ailo | Just a list of settable variables, yeah | 00:28 |
| ailo | Would be enough to keep only a few of those visible for a main settings window, and hide the advanced stuff in another tab or whatever. And make sure the user is informed about each setting | 00:29 |
| len-dt | ailo, The term room seems to mean something different than I would expect.. | 00:29 |
| ailo | Er, yeah. I haven't used that yet :P | 00:29 |
| ailo | len-dt: You might like to see falktx applications for reference too | 00:30 |
| len-dt | Ya he seems to make more use of it than most people. | 00:30 |
| ailo | len-dt: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications | 00:30 |
| ailo | One thing lacking in Ubuntu Studio is vst support | 00:31 |
| ailo | Hard to do probably | 00:31 |
| ailo | Also, I'm not sure about paths to instruments, and that sort of thing | 00:31 |
| len-dt | I have a link to kxstudio in my bookmarks. Some of it installed on this machine. | 00:32 |
| ailo | I guess Claudia is the most interesting in this case | 00:33 |
| len-dt | ailo, adding applications to ladish seems to require typing in command line stuff. But maybe I can start it from the menu and it would show up. | 00:33 |
| ailo | len-dt: Let's say you start an application from your workflow bar. Anything started from there could be started within ladish | 00:34 |
| len-dt | Ya they do. seems jack starts up too | 00:34 |
| ailo | Can you save them? Let me check. The list doesn't always update, I've notices | 00:35 |
| len-dt | I just started jackrack and all the pieces appeared | 00:35 |
| len-dt | PA sure takes up a lot of real estate | 00:36 |
| ailo | len-dt: If you start an application normally, it shows up in connections, but you can't save it with the session | 00:38 |
| ailo | I do seem to have some bugs | 00:39 |
| len-dt | jackdbus is buggy | 00:39 |
| ailo | Someone said the new version of qjackctl was still having problems shutting down jackdbus | 00:39 |
| len-dt | jack_control does too but because it gets started anew every time it is more resilient. | 00:40 |
| ailo | It's a bit of a problem, having jackdbus crash like that | 00:41 |
| ailo | Would be nice to have a "killall" button | 00:41 |
| ailo | Not nice, but useful | 00:41 |
| len-dt | What all would kill? | 00:41 |
| len-dt | Just jack? | 00:41 |
| ailo | Don't know. In this case everything jack, as well as ladish | 00:41 |
| len-dt | and or qjackctl I would guess. | 00:42 |
| len-dt | Does the dbus version of jack add that much to things we should even use it? | 00:42 |
| ailo | Does ladish work without it? | 00:43 |
| len-dt | That I don't know. I think PA's jack sink needs it though. | 00:43 |
| len-dt | Ya, dbus is what they all use to "talk" to each other with. | 00:45 |
| len-dt | ailo, Ok now both qjackctl and gladish have gone blank on me... not what I want to throw at a new user :/ | 00:48 |
| ailo | When they crash, it's a bit of a hazzle killing them | 00:48 |
| ailo | I killall button could have be set to kill a list of predermined applications, active or not | 00:49 |
| ailo | I'm getting a bit tired evidently | 00:49 |
| ailo | I wouldn't mind replacing qjackctl with something else. Preferably something that starts out being a kind of hybrid PA/Jack controller, like a simple volume control with a menu (like the current PA volume control) with a patch bay. But with all the config options hidden deeper in options | 00:52 |
| ailo | Well, PA and jack would still need separate patchbays | 00:53 |
| len-dt | ailo, qjackctl has no problems at higher latencys | 00:53 |
| len-dt | Try it at -p 512 | 00:54 |
| ailo | I've been using 1024 | 00:54 |
| len-dt | 1024 was ok too for me. Maybe I didn't cycle it enough | 00:54 |
| ailo | But, there's a problem with this machine, using threadirqs. At least I get xruns easily because of it | 00:54 |
| len-dt | I was testing at -p 64 before | 00:55 |
| ailo | I need to get some sleep. bb in a few hours | 00:56 |
| len-dt | k bye | 00:57 |
| ailo | I see the need for some kind of general troubleshooting wiki page | 10:15 |
| ailo | So, I started one | 10:15 |
| ailo | We also need to explain the difference between jackd1, jackd2 and jackdbus, as well as alsa and jack midi | 10:16 |
| ailo | All of these things should probably end up in the main web site later, I think | 10:16 |
| ailo | So, I've just begun populating this page a bit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/TroubleShooting | 10:17 |
| ailo | If we add more stuff, we just categorize it under things like "jack", "midi" or whatever | 10:18 |
| ailo | len-dt: Have you had problems with previous kernels? | 10:42 |
| ailo | I put together a short guide on how to build the natty, or the oneiric kernel | 10:43 |
| ailo | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency | 10:43 |
| ailo | Someone was having some serious raid problems, so he needed to revert back to an older kernel | 10:45 |
| ailo | I believe 2.6.38 will outperform any 3.2 kernel | 10:45 |
| ailo | Those kernels were tight for audio | 10:45 |
| len-dt | ailo, I only really started testing at 11.10. Also I have a simpler setup than most. | 13:09 |
| len-dt | ailo, performance doesn't seem to be an issue with our current kernel. I still run out of memory before cpu/kernel time. | 13:38 |
| len-dt | ailo, those two trouble shooting tips covers a lot of questions we get. | 13:57 |
| === shnatsel is now known as SergeLion | ||
| len-dt | ailo, weird thing happened just now. started the xfce4-mixer... didn't seem to start... 5 minutes later it showed up. | 14:08 |
| === SergeLion is now known as shnatsel | ||
| === shnatsel is now known as SergeLion | ||
| === SergeLion is now known as shnatsel | ||
| ailo | len-dt: I did a lot of testing with 2.6.37-39 | 15:18 |
| ailo | They were better performing | 15:18 |
| ailo | len-dt: But, what I was curious about was if maybe your networking problems might diminish with an older kernel | 15:19 |
| ailo | Just for the sake of interest, I'll try the PA jack bridge for this day, using -p 32 to see the difference | 15:24 |
| ailo | I'm betting I will have few, if any xruns at all | 15:24 |
| len-dt | ailo, actually, the brudge gives me no problems if the internal IF is turned off. | 15:52 |
| ailo | len-dt: Well, it does for me | 15:53 |
| ailo | With the older kernel | 15:53 |
| ailo | I mean, with the newer one | 15:53 |
| ailo | It doesn't handle really low latencies | 15:54 |
| len-dt | ailo, I should try my USB IF on this machine to see if it does better than -p 64 that it does on my netbook. | 15:55 |
| ailo | len-dt: With this older kernel, I do get an occasional xrun with the jack bridge at -p 32, but so far it seems only when I start something, like a new instance of flash player. With the newer kernel, I'd have about the same performance at -p 64, but with more xruns, and more random | 16:13 |
| ailo | len-dt: Please do try the older kernel, just for reference | 16:13 |
| ailo | I think it would be interesting to see what happens | 16:13 |
| len-dt | which PPA? | 16:26 |
| * len-dt is still a newby when it comes to setting up odd PPAs and stuff | 16:27 | |
| === shnatsel is now known as SergeLion | ||
| ailo | len-dt: No PPA. The guide is for building your own kernel | 16:35 |
| ailo | Pretty straight forward. The only part which may need some considering is when you run the command "make oldconfig" | 16:35 |
| ailo | The make script creates a new config, based on the old once. There are always diffs between kernel versions, so the configs never match | 16:36 |
| ailo | So, you need to answer y/n or m for a lot of config options | 16:36 |
| ailo | As I explain in the guide, you probably need to say no to cgroups in the beginning, and it's always good to say no to debug stuff (to reduce latency) | 16:37 |
| ailo | For the most part, I didn't read the configs. Just kept pushing Enter (to get the default config) | 16:37 |
| ailo | I will add another guide, using a different, more simple way of creating the configs | 16:38 |
| ailo | I'll probably want to add some kernels to a PPA too later | 16:38 |
| ailo | There's something funny going on with the PA bridge | 16:49 |
| ailo | I started getting xruns, but only after a good while of using a PA application | 16:49 |
| ailo | Once I stopped the app, no xruns | 16:49 |
| ailo | The PA-bridge on the whole time | 16:49 |
| ailo | Took about 30 min before I started getting even one xrun | 16:50 |
| ailo | A flash video that is about 1h long | 16:50 |
| ailo | Anyway, It'll reappear later, when I start doing more systematic testing | 16:52 |
| len-dt | ailo, I was going to ask why run a flash video through PA-jack, but I guess firewire stuff still needs that. | 16:59 |
| ailo | len-dt: I'm testint the bridge. That is the only reason right now | 17:00 |
| ailo | len-dt: Also, why would you not want to do that? If you're using jack and want to watch a flash video at the same time | 17:01 |
| ailo | You can answer, well, you'll mess up your recording cause the bridge causes xruns. But, maybe I'm just practicing guitar playing to a youtube video | 17:02 |
| ailo | There's no way of guessing what the user will use applications for | 17:02 |
| ailo | The only thing that matters is knowing what works and what does not | 17:02 |
| ailo | And try to fix the stuff that doesn't | 17:03 |
| len-dt | makes sense. | 17:04 |
| len-dt | ailo, just install qjackctl 0.3.9 Wiil test. (thanks falktx ) | 17:40 |
| len-dt | ailo, jackdbus bug still shows up (no surprise) | 17:43 |
| ailo | len-dt: Does qjackctl kill jackdbus when that happens? | 18:00 |
| len-dt | Let me check | 18:03 |
| len-dt | jack_control status returns "stopped" | 18:08 |
| len-dt | So jack stops but does not exit. | 18:08 |
| ailo | Can you restart it? | 18:08 |
| len-dt | only if I restart qjackctl | 18:11 |
| ailo | That's at least some progress | 18:11 |
| len-dt | ailo, if I wait till qjackctl is finished as much as it can and kill jack and restart it using jack_control, I don't have to restart qjackctl. | 18:18 |
| ailo | len-dt: I'm more concerned about the novice user perspective. If it stops working, and restarting qjackctl is enough, then I don't think the bug is causing too much problems | 18:32 |
| len-dt | jacks dbus stuff is flaky | 18:32 |
| ailo | Yeah. It's too bad | 18:33 |
| ailo | I gotta go. bb later | 18:33 |
| len-dt | bye | 18:33 |
| === SergeLion is now known as shnatsel | ||
| === shnatsel is now known as SergeLion | ||
| ailo | The thing about PA I think is that it syncs with the bridge. Not with jack | 21:18 |
| ailo | I'm just guessing, since I don't really know | 21:18 |
| ailo | That is how I would have done it anyway | 21:18 |
| ailo | PA could have a larger latency to the bridge than jack | 21:19 |
| ailo | The bridge itself is a jack app, but PA never becomes one | 21:19 |
| ailo | Well, a hybrid | 21:20 |
| ailo | At least I'm pretty sure that PA never runs at the same low latencies that jack does | 21:21 |
| len-dt | ailo, where is jack setting the latency? Is it internal to jack? or is it an ALSA setting? | 22:13 |
| len-dt | That is, I am sure that Jack does not talk to alsa (and therefore the port) once per sample. | 22:14 |
| ailo | len-dt: I don't think alsa is a server at all when used with jack, or with PA. PA is a server, jack is a server, alsa is the driver code they use | 22:15 |
| ailo | That's my picture of it anyway | 22:15 |
| ailo | So, jack sets its' own latency, as does PA | 22:16 |
| len-dt | Ok, so doews jack feed audio directly to the hardware? or through ALSA? | 22:16 |
| len-dt | The device is generated by ALSA. That is there is no audio device before alsa runs. | 22:17 |
| ailo | Alsa is the interface, that jack controls | 22:18 |
| len-dt | The device drivers are a part of alsa. So jack sends data to the device through the device driver | 22:18 |
| ailo | I feel kind of stupid trying to make sense of this though. Some day I will find out :P | 22:19 |
| len-dt | in any case there is no reason that the bridge has to run at jack latency, at least not the whole thing. There has to be a small engine that does, but there could be a biggere buffer behind it that adds as much latency to the signal to make PA happy. | 22:20 |
| len-dt | I don't think that happens though. | 22:21 |
| * len-dt fingers fumble worse than his tongue | 22:23 | |
| len-dt | ailo, I think the buffer is in the alsa hardware driver. Jack just sets the size. That would mean PA has to set the size for its use too. I don't see why it would have to be global though | 22:45 |
| len-dt | ailo, on the other hand, it would be intuitive that if the user set jack to low latency that they would "want" anything on the other side of a PA-jack bridge to also be low latency... I'm talking from a PA developers view. | 23:06 |
| knome | bleh scott. | 23:09 |
| ailo | knome: You miss him? | 23:09 |
| knome | ailo, yeah, a lot | 23:09 |
| ailo | He's kind of VIP these days | 23:09 |
| knome | around where? :P | 23:09 |
| ailo | I mean like a special guest, that drops by every now and then :) | 23:10 |
| knome | heh. :) | 23:10 |
| ailo | He was talking about having a new computer set up soon | 23:10 |
| knome | i knew he wasn't important, but not important enough to be here all the time ;) | 23:11 |
| ailo | He probably deserves some time off too | 23:12 |
| knome | ;) | 23:12 |
| ailo | len-dt: I think it would be nice to be able to control PA latency, and maybe it's possible. I only had a quick look at PA configs just a couple of days ago | 23:13 |
| ailo | In a way, it's a good thing that you never feel the need to look at configs | 23:13 |
| ailo | Should be like that with everything | 23:13 |
| ailo | Just push a button and it's rock'n'roll | 23:13 |
| ailo | Phew, going to ride a bicycle 120km tomorrow. I'm worried about my behind getting sore | 23:15 |
| ailo | Better get some sleep | 23:16 |
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