[00:04] <ailo> len-dt: I wonder how much one could do to control ladish
[00:05] <ailo> Might be something worth investigating for your workflow panel app
[00:13] <len-dt> ailo, Ya, a workflow app needs a rethink. What I had done so far gave a workflow specific menu/panel. I don't think that really is that much of a help beyond the main menu.
[00:14] <ailo> len-dt: It might be possible to use the same components that Gladish uses, and maybe automate some things a bit more. 
[00:15] <ailo> It already has all you need to control jack
[00:16] <ailo> If one would like to be really ambitious, one could incorporate PA as well
[00:17] <len-dt> Does it control jack better than qjackctl?
[00:17] <ailo> Don't think it has more features, other than the session part
[00:18] <ailo> Perhaps it doesn't get the same bug as qjackctl, when stopping jackdbus
[00:18] <ailo> Need to test it more
[00:18] <len-dt> It was the bug I was wondering about.
[00:18] <ailo> For the average user, the control panels are a bit more informative than you'd need them to be
[00:19] <holstein> ailo: https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/ is very nice!
[00:19] <ailo> holstein: Thanks. If you find something badly written, or missing, please do tell. I don't really like adding text to pages like that
[00:21] <len-dt> ailo, from your picture of gladish on that page, it looks like it does some patchage stuff too.
[00:22] <ailo> len-dt: I would think it's the same code
[00:22] <ailo> At least I recognize it from a few other apps
[00:22] <len-dt> same author then?
[00:22] <len-dt> Maybe same tool kit
[00:22] <ailo> I think falktx uses that too for one of his apps
[00:26] <ailo> Generally, starting applications and saving them could be done almost identically to how Gladish does this, but only do it from the panel
[00:27] <ailo> Just that you can't save the projects that are in use. Only connections for the most part
[00:27] <ailo> I would prefer another interface for doing jack settings. One which is much easier to read for novice users
[00:27] <len-dt> Seems more confusing to set up jack.
[00:28]  * len-dt means more confusing than qjackctl
[00:28] <ailo> Just a list of settable variables, yeah
[00:29] <ailo> Would be enough to keep only a few of those visible for a main settings window, and hide the advanced stuff in another tab or whatever. And make sure the user is informed about each setting
[00:29] <len-dt> ailo, The term room seems to mean something different than I would expect..
[00:29] <ailo> Er, yeah. I haven't used that yet :P
[00:30] <ailo> len-dt: You might like to see falktx applications for reference too
[00:30] <len-dt> Ya he seems to make more use of it than most people.
[00:30] <ailo> len-dt: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications
[00:31] <ailo> One thing lacking in Ubuntu Studio is vst support
[00:31] <ailo> Hard to do probably
[00:31] <ailo> Also, I'm not sure about paths to instruments, and that sort of thing
[00:32] <len-dt> I have a link to kxstudio in my bookmarks. Some of it installed on this machine.
[00:33] <ailo> I guess Claudia is the most interesting in this case
[00:33] <len-dt> ailo, adding applications to ladish seems to require typing in command line stuff. But maybe I can start it from the menu and it would show up.
[00:34] <ailo> len-dt: Let's say you start an application from your workflow bar. Anything started from there could be started within ladish
[00:34] <len-dt> Ya they do. seems jack starts up too
[00:35] <ailo> Can you save them? Let me check. The list doesn't always update, I've notices
[00:35] <len-dt> I just started jackrack and all the pieces appeared 
[00:36] <len-dt> PA sure takes up a lot of real estate
[00:38] <ailo> len-dt: If you start an application normally, it shows up in connections, but you can't save it with the session
[00:39] <ailo> I do seem to have some bugs
[00:39] <len-dt> jackdbus is buggy
[00:39] <ailo> Someone said the new version of qjackctl was still having problems shutting down jackdbus
[00:40] <len-dt> jack_control does too but because it gets started anew every time it is more resilient.
[00:41] <ailo> It's a bit of a problem, having jackdbus crash like that
[00:41] <ailo> Would be nice to have a "killall" button
[00:41] <ailo> Not nice, but useful
[00:41] <len-dt> What all would kill?
[00:41] <len-dt> Just jack?
[00:41] <ailo> Don't know. In this case everything jack, as well as ladish
[00:42] <len-dt> and or qjackctl I would guess.
[00:42] <len-dt> Does the dbus version of jack add that much to things we should even use it?
[00:43] <ailo> Does ladish work without it?
[00:43] <len-dt> That I don't know. I think PA's jack sink needs it though.
[00:45] <len-dt> Ya, dbus is what they all use to "talk" to each other with.
[00:48] <len-dt> ailo, Ok now both qjackctl and gladish have gone blank on me... not what I want to throw at a new user :/
[00:48] <ailo> When they crash, it's a bit of a hazzle killing them
[00:49] <ailo> I killall button could have be set to kill a list of predermined applications, active or not
[00:49] <ailo> I'm getting a bit tired evidently
[00:52] <ailo> I wouldn't mind replacing qjackctl with something else. Preferably something that starts out being a kind of hybrid PA/Jack controller, like a simple volume control with a menu (like the current PA volume control)  with a patch bay. But with all the config options hidden deeper in options
[00:53] <ailo> Well, PA and jack would still need separate patchbays
[00:53] <len-dt> ailo, qjackctl has no problems at higher latencys
[00:54] <len-dt> Try it at -p 512
[00:54] <ailo> I've been using 1024
[00:54] <len-dt> 1024 was ok too for me. Maybe I didn't cycle it enough
[00:54] <ailo> But, there's a problem with this machine, using threadirqs. At least I get xruns easily because of it
[00:55] <len-dt> I was testing at -p 64 before
[00:56] <ailo> I need to get some sleep. bb in a few hours
[00:57] <len-dt> k bye
[10:15] <ailo> I see the need for some kind of general troubleshooting wiki page
[10:15] <ailo> So, I started one
[10:16] <ailo> We also need to explain the difference between jackd1, jackd2 and jackdbus, as well as alsa and jack midi
[10:16] <ailo> All of these things should probably end up in the main web site later, I think
[10:17] <ailo> So, I've just begun populating this page a bit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/TroubleShooting
[10:18] <ailo> If we add more stuff, we just categorize it under things like "jack", "midi" or whatever
[10:42] <ailo> len-dt: Have you had problems with previous kernels?
[10:43] <ailo> I put together a short guide on how to build the natty, or the oneiric kernel
[10:43] <ailo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency
[10:45] <ailo> Someone was having some serious raid problems, so he needed to revert back to an older kernel
[10:45] <ailo> I believe 2.6.38 will outperform any 3.2 kernel
[10:45] <ailo> Those kernels were tight for audio
[13:09] <len-dt> ailo, I only really started testing at 11.10. Also I have a simpler setup than most.
[13:38] <len-dt> ailo, performance doesn't seem to be an issue with our current kernel. I still run out of memory before cpu/kernel time.
[13:57] <len-dt> ailo, those two trouble shooting tips covers a lot of questions we get.
[14:08] <len-dt> ailo, weird thing happened just now. started the xfce4-mixer... didn't seem to start... 5 minutes later it showed up.
[15:18] <ailo> len-dt: I did a lot of testing with 2.6.37-39
[15:18] <ailo> They were better performing
[15:19] <ailo> len-dt: But, what I was curious about was if maybe your networking problems might diminish with an older kernel
[15:24] <ailo> Just for the sake of interest, I'll try the PA jack bridge for this day, using -p 32 to see the difference
[15:24] <ailo> I'm betting I will have few, if any xruns at all
[15:52] <len-dt> ailo, actually, the brudge gives me no problems if the internal IF is turned off.
[15:53] <ailo> len-dt: Well, it does for me
[15:53] <ailo> With the older kernel
[15:53] <ailo> I mean, with the newer one
[15:54] <ailo> It doesn't handle really low latencies
[15:55] <len-dt> ailo, I should try my USB IF on this machine to see if it does better than -p 64 that it does on my netbook.
[16:13] <ailo> len-dt: With this older kernel, I do get an occasional xrun with the jack bridge at -p 32, but so far it seems only when I start something, like a new instance of flash player. With the newer kernel, I'd have about the same performance at -p 64, but with more xruns, and more random
[16:13] <ailo> len-dt: Please do try the older kernel, just for reference
[16:13] <ailo> I think it would be interesting to see what happens
[16:26] <len-dt> which PPA?
[16:27]  * len-dt is still a newby when it comes to setting up odd PPAs and stuff
[16:35] <ailo> len-dt: No PPA. The guide is for building your own kernel
[16:35] <ailo> Pretty straight forward. The only part which may need some considering is when you run the command "make oldconfig"
[16:36] <ailo> The make script creates a new config, based on the old once. There are always diffs between kernel versions, so the configs never match
[16:36] <ailo> So, you need to answer y/n or m for a lot of config options
[16:37] <ailo> As I explain in the guide, you probably need to say no to cgroups in the beginning, and it's always good to say no to debug stuff (to reduce latency)
[16:37] <ailo> For the most part, I didn't read the configs. Just kept pushing Enter (to get the default config)
[16:38] <ailo> I will add another guide, using a different, more simple way of creating the configs
[16:38] <ailo> I'll probably want to add some kernels to a PPA too later
[16:49] <ailo> There's something funny going on with the PA bridge
[16:49] <ailo> I started getting xruns, but only after a good while of using a PA application
[16:49] <ailo> Once I stopped the app, no xruns
[16:49] <ailo> The PA-bridge on the whole time
[16:50] <ailo> Took about 30 min before I started getting even one xrun
[16:50] <ailo> A flash video that is about 1h long
[16:52] <ailo> Anyway, It'll reappear later, when I start doing more systematic testing
[16:59] <len-dt> ailo, I was going to ask why run a flash video through PA-jack, but I guess firewire stuff still needs that.
[17:00] <ailo> len-dt: I'm testint the bridge. That is the only reason right now
[17:01] <ailo> len-dt: Also, why would you not want to do that? If you're using jack and want to watch a flash video at the same time
[17:02] <ailo> You can answer, well, you'll mess up your recording cause the bridge causes xruns. But, maybe I'm just practicing guitar playing to a youtube video
[17:02] <ailo> There's no way of guessing what the user will use applications for
[17:02] <ailo> The only thing that matters is knowing what works and what does not
[17:03] <ailo> And try to fix the stuff that doesn't
[17:04] <len-dt> makes sense.
[17:40] <len-dt> ailo, just install qjackctl  0.3.9 Wiil test. (thanks falktx )
[17:43] <len-dt> ailo, jackdbus bug still shows up (no surprise)
[18:00] <ailo> len-dt: Does qjackctl kill jackdbus when that happens?
[18:03] <len-dt> Let me check
[18:08] <len-dt> jack_control status returns "stopped"
[18:08] <len-dt>  So jack stops but does not exit.
[18:08] <ailo> Can you restart it?
[18:11] <len-dt> only if I restart qjackctl
[18:11] <ailo> That's at least some progress
[18:18] <len-dt> ailo, if I wait till qjackctl is finished as much as it can and kill jack and restart it using jack_control, I don't have to restart qjackctl.
[18:32] <ailo> len-dt: I'm more concerned about the novice user perspective. If it stops working, and restarting qjackctl is enough, then I don't think the bug is causing too much problems
[18:32] <len-dt> jacks dbus stuff is flaky
[18:33] <ailo> Yeah. It's too bad
[18:33] <ailo> I gotta go. bb later
[18:33] <len-dt> bye
[21:18] <ailo> The thing about PA I think is that it syncs with the bridge. Not with jack
[21:18] <ailo> I'm just guessing, since I don't really know
[21:18] <ailo> That is how I would have done it anyway
[21:19] <ailo> PA could have a larger latency to the bridge than jack
[21:19] <ailo> The bridge itself is a jack app, but PA never becomes one
[21:20] <ailo> Well, a hybrid
[21:21] <ailo> At least I'm pretty sure that PA never runs at the same low latencies that jack does
[22:13] <len-dt> ailo, where is jack setting the latency? Is it internal to jack? or is it an ALSA setting?
[22:14] <len-dt> That is, I am sure that Jack does not talk to alsa (and therefore the port) once per sample.
[22:15] <ailo> len-dt: I don't think alsa is a server at all when used with jack, or with PA. PA is a server, jack is a server, alsa is the driver code they use
[22:15] <ailo> That's my picture of it anyway
[22:16] <ailo> So, jack sets its' own latency, as does PA
[22:16] <len-dt> Ok, so doews jack feed audio directly to the hardware? or through ALSA?
[22:17] <len-dt> The device is generated by ALSA. That is there is no audio device before alsa runs.
[22:18] <ailo> Alsa is the interface, that jack controls
[22:18] <len-dt> The device drivers are a part of alsa. So jack sends data to the device through the device driver
[22:19] <ailo> I feel kind of stupid trying to make sense of this though. Some day I will find out :P
[22:20] <len-dt> in any case there is no reason that the bridge has to run at jack latency, at least not the whole thing. There has to be a small engine that does, but there could be a biggere buffer behind it that adds as much latency to the signal to make PA happy.
[22:21] <len-dt> I don't think that happens though. 
[22:23]  * len-dt fingers fumble worse than his tongue
[22:45] <len-dt> ailo, I think the buffer is in the alsa hardware driver. Jack just sets the size. That would mean PA has to set the size for its use too. I don't see why it would have to be global though
[23:06] <len-dt> ailo, on the other hand, it would be intuitive that if the user set jack to low latency that they would "want" anything on the other side of a PA-jack bridge to also be low latency... I'm talking from a PA developers view.
[23:09] <knome> bleh scott.
[23:09] <ailo> knome: You miss him?
[23:09] <knome> ailo, yeah, a lot
[23:09] <ailo> He's kind of VIP these days
[23:09] <knome> around where? :P
[23:10] <ailo> I mean like a special guest, that drops by every now and then :)
[23:10] <knome> heh. :)
[23:10] <ailo> He was talking about having a new computer set up soon
[23:11] <knome> i knew he wasn't important, but not important enough to be here all the time ;)
[23:12] <ailo> He probably deserves some time off too
[23:12] <knome> ;)
[23:13] <ailo> len-dt: I think it would be nice to be able to control PA latency, and maybe it's possible. I only had a quick look at PA configs just a couple of days ago
[23:13] <ailo> In a way, it's a good thing that you never feel the need to look at configs
[23:13] <ailo> Should be like that with everything 
[23:13] <ailo> Just push a button and it's rock'n'roll
[23:15] <ailo> Phew, going to ride a bicycle 120km tomorrow. I'm worried about my behind getting sore
[23:16] <ailo> Better get some sleep