[00:01] ouch though, $30 outlet :/ [00:19] that is kinda cool. but i just use a power strip and a USB charging block thing. [00:19] heh [00:21] yea, we've started at keeping usb power cords in the kitchen and the space would be nicer like that [00:22] i agree. [00:43] JoDee managed to kill her micro USB cable [00:43] so I only have the one that came with my phone [00:43] got one on order [00:46] I'm so glad things are going to that [00:46] almost everything is on that these days, though did hit mini-usb on my bike lights [00:47] As long as it's USB, I'm happy [00:47] unfortunatlely my nook uses a weird pin-out [00:48] it looks like micro usb, but has some funky shape [00:49] mine NC has an extra long micro-usb [00:49] damn fools [00:53] brousch: It's not actually micro USB [00:54] try it (unplugged) in another device [00:54] it's actually too thin [00:54] yeah, doesn't work with other devices [00:54] the charger works with a regular microusb cord though [00:54] Yeah, the charger is just USB [00:55] they added some extra stuff to run at higher power [00:57] it's nice for charging other things, so i carry it in my bag [01:00] Let's get the meeting started [01:00] Who all is here? [01:01] around [01:01] is that tonight? [01:01] wow. got lucky [01:01] Be vwey, vewy quiet. I'm hunting wabbits. [01:04] Anyone else? [01:10] OK, quiet group [01:10] guess it's good, since there's not much to cover this meeting [01:10] Only point I'd like to highlight is that Ohio Linuxfest fast approaches [01:10] and last year we had a booth with Lococast [01:10] which was essentially rick_h_ and I sitting in the booth all day [01:12] Which was OK, but didn't afford us much time to see the show [01:12] I and won't be there this year [01:12] err ... and I [01:12] Which leads to problem #2 to doing that again [01:15] Why not just record an episode there, and spend the rest of the time seeing the show? [01:15] Ahuka: See above [01:17] We talked last year about combining efforts with the Ohio team, but that didn't go anywhere. [01:19] We cantry that route again [01:19] but if not, we'll need to put some effort into having a presence at OLF [01:21] when is olf? [01:22] <_stink_> alf? [01:22] Last weekend of Sept. [01:23] Very unlikely for me [01:25] While I will be there, my time is already committed. [01:25] Ahuka: Yeah, I figured as much [01:25] IN any event, something to think about [01:26] oh sorry didn't realize meeting was going on [01:26] i'll start paying attention [01:31] Anything else on OLF? [01:32] Nothing here. [01:35] Anything else in general? [01:36] no [01:38] going once [01:41] going twice [01:42] Thank you everyone for coming [01:42] three times a lady? [01:45] Only if you worship Lionel Ritchie [02:59] sorry. i was on the phone with Brian. but i'm going to bed now and will see everyone tomorrow after work. [11:17] morning [11:21] good morning [11:22] http://xahlee.org/kbd/Truly_Ergonomic_keyboard.html for the morning conversation [11:24] About the only thing that needs is a dvorak layout so I can completely write it off [11:25] * snap-l needs to do some scientific studies that ergonomic keyboards don't do what they claim. [11:25] yea, that was my thing. I've been wanting an MS natural with real keys forever, but this is a bit much I think [11:27] rick_h_: Well, I think the MS natural keyboard is an abomination as well [11:28] so I'm not the best person to ask about "ergonomic" keyboards. [11:28] naw, just too big. needed no numpad, etc [11:28] bbiab [11:29] Fuck, I can't wait to get to 12.04, where I don't have suspend. :) [11:29] hi [11:29] * snap-l just hit suspend, for those playing along at home. [11:30] OK, really bbiab [11:30] snap-l: huh? I'm confused. [11:30] see ya [11:31] I would like to fix a very super easy defect, will be my first [11:31] which defect do you recommend me to fix? [11:33] Robechz: well, I would try to find some appliaction or tool you use and find useful. And look for something within there [11:36] OK I submitted a wishlist 'to have a suggestions/report link at the very top right of ubuntu' and it was denied, how can I promote it and or start working on it? [11:42] man, there's a guy running a project that lists out open source projects that could use help with something but I'm blanking on the name [11:42] maybe greg-g can help me remember when you gets up ^^ [12:04] good morning all [12:04] ugh monday heh [12:05] I hear ya [12:06] Good morning again [12:07] rick_h_: I accidentally hit "suspend" from the drop-down list [12:07] it's under "Lock" [12:07] ah [12:07] and frankly, on my desktop machine, it's pretty pointless [12:08] There's a snowball's chance that I'm ever going to want to suspend the machine on purpose [12:56] Productive day. Fixed 2 computers and a data entry error already [12:56] woot [12:57] brousch: awesome, ... now get me a coffee ;) Lol I NEED TO WAKE UP lol [12:57] Right, be there in about 3 hours [12:57] Sweet [12:57] ;) [12:57] I pulled some unbelievable dustballs out of one of the computers [12:58] Looked like steel wool [12:58] wow nice, hate working on computers like that [12:58] 6 years sitting in a metalshop will do that, I guess [12:59] When I was working at an RV dealer, their computer was filled with saw dust and metal shavings ... that was fun to clean out lol [12:59] I understand you woes lol [12:59] Bah, just take it outside and blow through 2 air cans [13:00] Then manual extraction of the steel wool [13:00] lol [13:02] That's when it's time for the vacuums [13:48] brousch: he never learned functional or OO. 45 programming langauges all of which look like C and fortran. [13:49] heh [13:49] gamerchick02: mac book air, do it! best laptop I've ever had. but I run OSX on it ;( [13:49] jrwren: He's supposed to be a Perl master! [13:55] well, he is damned good at perl. [13:55] I honestly think he says stuff like that trolling. [13:56] like when I say I've been doing nodejs for 10 yrs, because POE and TWISTED and eventing is not new. [13:56] but don't tell a node hipster. [13:58] jrwren: troll. ;) [14:00] but yeah, 45 C-like languages aren't going to teach you dick about OO [14:01] And Perl has OO, but it's pretty wonky. [14:01] It's not something I found particularly easy / beautiful. Felt more like "if I tweak this just so, it can act like an object" [14:05] perl OO is more a way to do OO in a non-oo langauge. a lot like using glib in C [14:06] Yeah, that's an apt comparison [14:06] ty [14:06] * snap-l likes glib, though. :) [14:09] i like glib and perl. [14:09] if i'm going to write C, glib style C is my prefered style. [14:11] "[..] certificates issued by our Terminal Services licensing certification [14:11] authority, which are intended to only be used for license server verification, could also be used to sign code as Microsoft. Specifically, [14:11] when an enterprise customer requests a Terminal Services activation license, the certificate issued by Microsoft in response to the request [14:11] allows code signing without accessing Microsoft???s internal PKI infrastructure." [14:11] This is why we can't have nice things. [14:12] SWEET! [14:12] who fucked that up? [14:13] who is running that CA? [14:13] can I get the key? [14:13] :) [14:15] Seriously, CAs just need to go away [14:15] web of trust? [14:16] More the notion that the trust level you can have is proportional to how much you spend on it. [14:16] because it's clear there's ways to completely break it [14:16] certainly. [14:16] DIginotar, MS not splitting their terminal server license CA, etc [14:17] in a way, ubuntu is founded in CA :) [14:17] Yeah, no doubt [14:18] and when secure boot comes about, I'm certain it'll just make it harder to run legit code, but malware will find a way. [14:19] It's the great constant of the universe. [14:19] Like CSS on DVDs (which I find hysterical how they implemented it) [14:20] I can see secure-boot making the same mistakes [14:20] agreed. [14:21] There was a guy with some DMCA stuff on his table at mini maker on saturday. [14:21] i didn't realize they made more crap around bluray and newer dvds [14:21] Oh yeah [14:21] I won't touch bluray with a 10 foot pole [14:21] and he pointed out that on any decent TV you can open it up and get the RGB signals post crypto [14:21] and I'm a bit disgusted at how Sony protects SACD [14:22] sony often hurts their own formats. [14:22] Well, SACD requires a special drive [14:22] MD was a sweet format. [14:22] which was shipping on earlier PS3 models [14:23] which kind of explains why they killed off the alternate-OS mod for PS3s [14:23] PS3 was SACD? [14:23] i had no idea. [14:23] its also bluray. [14:23] Install the alternate OS, mod the PS3, and now you're golden [14:23] jrwren: I believe so, at least from what I've read about copying SACD [14:24] Which is why I wish DVD-Audio would take off [14:24] but it appears both formats are pretty much dead [14:24] Though SACD has a heavy classical following [14:25] i am glad I don' thave the ears to tell better than CD. [14:25] * snap-l has a bunch of SACDs [14:25] or... I'm glad I'm ignorant to the higher quality :) [14:25] mostly because the performances came on SACD, and it has the backward-compatability layer. [14:25] i can barely tell difference between a cd rip in flac v. lame v0 [14:26] oh, sounds like a racket. [14:26] My friends are ripping a huge Blueray collection. Thay had to resort to a subscription plan for some Windows program to keep up with all the new Blueray encryption crap they come up with [14:26] I can kind of tell, depending on the music [14:26] there's some cues in acoustic music [14:27] did you let your friends know that they are violating DMCA ? [14:28] jrwren: I doubt they care about that [14:28] It's a personal Blueray collection for personal consumption, so they feel justified [14:29] brousch: breaking encryption is against the DMCA, ripping from media to your computer in and of its self isn't [14:29] that's why all music-playing apps have cd ripping built in to them [14:30] Google Music doesn't [14:30] Google Music application only syncs your current library [14:30] it doesn't actually play the music [14:31] they want you on their website for ad $$$ [14:31] Well the web client plays music but doesn't rip it either :P [14:32] that'd be quite the feat [14:32] imo, the fact that you're not allowed to rip blurays and dvds to your hdd is bad policy. Not everyone is in the Scene and is going to upload it for the leechers [14:33] some people have media-center PCs and watch movies over the network [14:33] if they made it EASIER to rip DVDs and BR, I think it'd reduce the amount of piracy. If it's easy to make an AVI or MKV, more people would do that instead of resorting to torrents or usenet [14:35] instead they have to use DVDDecrypter which works rarely on the newest media, so it's much easier to just download the stuff illegally than buy the movie [14:39] eliminate the need to leech, you eliminate the need for uppers [14:39] [14:40] Or just wait for it to show up on Netflix, and destroy the industry that way. :) [14:41] snap-l: ^ or that [14:41] but then you're waiting 7 years [14:41] instead of getting the newest flix immediately [14:41] It's commesurate with the amount that I give a shit about Hollywood [14:42] JoDee and I were looking for something to do. We looked at the list of movies. About the only ones we could muster a "give-a-damn" about were The Avengers (which JoDee doesn't care for superhero flicks) [14:42] MIB3 === awesome [14:43] and Dark Shadows [14:43] avengers was better than I thought it would be [14:43] Which, frankly, is not worth the $$ to care [14:43] the wife is dying to see "Brave" [14:43] rick_h_: aye.. my g/f is too [14:44] luckily I enjoy a good pixar flick every now and then, so I'll probably take her to see it without too much grumbling [14:44] I dragged her to MIB3 so it's the least I could do [14:45] ugh, I've heard all kinds of bad about MIB3 [14:45] that'll go rental queue I think [14:46] http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/men_in_black_iii/ [14:46] it's not that bad [14:46] Josh Brolin's Tommy Lee Jones impersonation is dead on [14:47] I have a real hard time taking any movie seriously that tries the "Baskin Robbins has a new flavor" ad [14:47] route [14:48] lovely, two layers of popups to close out on rotten tomatoes site...ugh [14:48] somebody isn't using a good browser [14:48] Somebody is using a shitty site. :) [14:49] Rotten Tomatoes is the best site to go to if you're trying to figure out of the movie your girlfriend is trying to drag you to is any good [14:49] Anyone here good with php on the command-line? [14:49] heh, I'll take my chrome dev version over whatever else [14:49] snap-l: what do you need? I don't know if I'll recall it... [14:49] ablock plus not compatibile with it? [14:49] MaskedDriver: not all of us run adblock [14:49] rick_h_: Marcel is having some trouble with quoting and php5-cli [14:50] we just decide to not go to sites with crap on it and actually hurt them [14:50] then how can you go to lolcats? [14:50] snap-l: ah, pastebin and can try [14:50] MaskedDriver: as I said...some of us skip out on crappy internet :) [14:51] lol [14:51] My son says he really wants to see Brave [14:52] yea, I'll go check it out. I've got a thing for red heads :P [14:52] it doesn't bother you that they have no souls? ;) [14:56] married one...so nope [14:57] :) [15:17] found a place in python where I really miss C#. datetimes. in C# i can subtract two dates and get a timespan between the two [15:17] jrwren: timedelta [15:17] <_stink_> right [15:18] <_stink_> timedelta doesn't do it for you? [15:18] Python's datetime stuff is the bizomb [15:18] it's a mess :/ [15:18] rick_h_: compared with what? :) Dates and Times get hairy quickly. [15:19] its a mess compared to C# [15:19] snap-l: well it's still a mess [15:19] http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/7/15/eppur-si-muove/ [15:19] jrwren: I'd worry it was incomplete if it wasn't a mess. ;) [15:20] and the fact that dateutil isn't in the stdlib [15:20] snap-l: yes, but its a mess in the wrong direction. [15:20] jrwren: make sure to check out dateutil [15:20] it fixes a lot [15:20] jrwren: http://labix.org/python-dateutil [15:20] jodatime is a mess, but its a mess becuase it does everything that the real world does. [15:21] rick_h_: That article just reaffirms my point that time is a mess [15:21] yes, agree, but that's a great article to have handy when the boss says "Add timezones to that" [15:21] Timezones are not simple slices of an orange. [15:23] rick_h_: ty, I'll start there. [15:24] i'm not adding timezones, but i am trying to read them correctly, and all based on a seconds since epoch number [15:24] jrwren: yea, it's a pita [15:25] Store everything in UTC [15:25] right, but people don't [15:26] All other roads lead to madness [15:27] brousch: ++ [15:29] i think it is UTC [15:29] but its distributed system, so if one systems TZ is set, and mine is set to something else, and value is read as that TZ value, well then it isn't really UTC [15:30] I think you can force it to save UTC [15:30] and force to read UTC [15:30] even if the tz is set on the machine, it should be able to get UTC from that [15:38] or should i use pytz? [15:44] hrm, mxdatetime ships with our dist. I might aim for that. [15:46] Are OCZ drives OK, or are they rubbish? [15:47] i haven't had any trouble with my ocz drive [15:47] snap-l: I haven't had any trouble with them [15:47] for a while they were leading the pack in terms of performance, i haven't checked recently though [15:48] snap-l: I have 1 OCZ drive that's been in an AutoCAD desktop working well for over a year [15:48] Blazeix: not to mention price/gb [15:49] OK, just checking [15:49] looking to do some upgrades, and wondering if I should get a new OS drive, or get a router [15:52] the only issue with OCZ drives is the sandforce chipset issue. I think that is mostly fixed. [15:53] OCZ Vertex3 and now 4 are the fastest around. === JonEdney is now known as 15SABW5FP [16:38] Question, what do you all use to track bugs? [16:45] For our own projects? [16:46] YEA [16:46] sorry for yelling [16:46] lol [16:52] shakes808: I usually rely on a third-party service like github / Sourceforge [16:53] If I had to make my own, I'd probably go with Trac or one of the myriad offshoots [16:56] GitHub has bug tracking? [16:57] shakes808: github issues, launchpad, redmine [17:02] thank you [17:09] Bitbucket is free [17:09] Even for private repos [17:11] really? [17:11] when did they change that? [17:11] or is it free for single person? [17:11] when they added git support I think it was their big difference maker in teh announcement [17:11] 2 or 3 people in a free private repo [17:11] 5 [17:11] "hey we support git! and bring your private repos over!" [17:12] https://bitbucket.org/plans [17:12] 2+3, that's what I meant ;) [17:12] brousch: lol [17:12] "stop giving github your hard earned $$" [17:13] ok, usb 3.0 thumbdrive ordered, 12.04 iso downloaded. Your turn lenovo...x230 better show up online tomorrow [17:13] but github is excellent. [17:13] its not just about the repo. [17:13] its about the nice browsing of the repo in my browser :) [17:13] yea, but there are some who want to keep their crap private and it can add up [17:13] If you wanted to have your crap private, why not host your own git server? [17:14] because that's hard :P [17:14] shakes808: Lazy [17:14] How hard? [17:14] lol [17:14] and no issues, no api, no pretty browser UI jrwren wants [17:14] there are other issue trackers, as was mentioned above [17:14] make your own UI ;P [17:14] :P [17:15] Bitbucket has browser browsing of repo and source [17:15] they aren't github. [17:15] isn't that what HTML / Python / Django is for ;) [17:15] they aren't github. [17:16] shakes808: It turns into a lot of infrastructure you cobble together for each project, which delays actually working on the project [17:16] github, I wnat the one with the most GeeBees [17:16] Do you want to make your thing, or do you want to make something to help you manage making your thing? [17:17] you can't make a script to set everything up? [17:17] rofl. [17:17] this is SSooooo analogous to "stack overflow is lame, I could make that in a few hours" [17:19] Shakes, sure you can make a script to cobble together a git server, trac instance, etc. But your time would be better spent making the thing you want to make instead of a script to setup management tools. Especially when good-enough management tools are available for free [17:21] shakes808: read this first: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/07/code-its-trivial.html [17:24] Although if the thing you want to make is an easy to setup project management suite based on open source tools, then go for it ;) [17:24] yes, please do, because all previous attempts are inadequate. [17:25] meeting, bbl [17:25] Oh wait, isn't that Launchpad? [17:26] Lauchpad has always bothered me [17:26] but it's kinda the standard at this point [17:26] Careful now, that is rick_h_ 's baby [17:28] is it? [17:29] Adopted [17:29] I see [17:29] yea, wouldn't call it my baby, but is my day job [17:30] launchpad is open source now. [17:30] but its not deployable. [17:30] nice what do you do with it rick_h_? [17:30] its pretty pathetic when it comes to its deploy story. [17:30] and I think that is because they really want to sell it. [17:30] yea, well it's pretty complicated little beastie [17:30] but... why would someone buy it when tehre is github? [17:31] MaskedDriver: I started there in Nov, I'm kind of the JS guru, but do all kinds of things [17:31] i suppose if you MUST have premise based. But if that is the case, I feel bad for you. [17:31] the fancy ajax buglisting stuff was my sqaud, but I came into it late of the project there [17:31] the big thing are places using it for the distribution building bits [17:32] really, if you don't need bug tracking across distros/versions/packages and the PPA setup it's not that great [17:32] but nothing else does the rest of that, so it's what makes ubuntu spin round and round [17:33] what kind of JS library are you using? Or are you just using straight JS? [17:33] YUI [17:33] part of my first work was ripping out the last of mochikit [17:34] rick_h_: nice. I'm more of a jquery guy myself, but it's starting to get so bloated [17:34] and this week we'll be turning on the JS combo loader to LP beta users which should be nice [17:34] well, I'm a jquery hater, so let me know when you need talking out of it :) [17:34] rick_h_: probably never, but thanks ;) [17:35] rick_h_: If bloat is his issue, would you send him to YUI? [17:35] yes, YUI helps with that. :) [17:35] since you only include the parts you need per page [17:35] see combo loader [17:35] yeah [17:36] Sounds complicated [17:36] it is, it's always easier to concat everything into one file and include it [17:36] brousch: not really. jQuery UI allows you to do stuff like that too [17:36] hardly ever a best practice [17:36] some, you can't do things like drop out the event subsystem, etc [17:37] rick_h_: yeah [17:37] rick_h_: how can you hate on jquery? [17:37] Why is it so rare for the best practice to be the easiest way of doing something? [17:37] jrwren: it's actually more I hate the jquery user vs jquery itself. And the jquery ecosystem. [17:37] rick_h_: but my forte is back-end php development. Not front-end, and jQuery was the first one I dabbled in so it's natural for me to use. [17:37] ah, ok. [17:37] brousch: because that's the way the world works. [17:37] rick_h_: how do you do selectors? [17:38] jrwren: var node = Y.one('#someid'); [17:38] jrwren: $('.thisclass').someEvent(); [17:38] ah, so YUI has it too. cool! [17:38] http://www.jsrosettastone.com/ [17:38] meh. [17:38] i was a prototype and scriptaculous user years ago. Why do i have to use a new lib for the same lang and same platform every year? [17:39] jrwren: Progress! [17:39] jrwren: almost all libraries work about the same way, just a modified version of document.getelementbyid() [17:40] MaskedDriver: you're going to get a rick_h_ rant whether you want it or not. [17:40] i predict [17:40] hey, I've been very good so far :) [17:41] thoguh mention logic-less templates at me for a while and I'll go boom! [17:41] hah [17:42] Logic does not belong in the template! [17:42] making jump through all these @#$#@ hoops just to do a: if obj.method() print obj.method() [17:42] You're doing it wrong! [17:43] sure, they WORK tehe same way, but each has completely different api. all because every year some new killer feature comes about. [17:43] rick_h_ isn't satisfied until his templates are turing-complete. [17:43] but finally think I have the right syntax for this crap: '{{#errors}}{{get_error "name"}}{{/errors}}' [17:43] that translates (somehow) into errors.get_error('name') [17:43] but noooo, I can't just type errors.get_error('name') [17:43] django template? [17:44] that is rediculous. [17:44] handlebars in JS [17:44] and so close to XML without being XML, I'd argue it is worse. [17:44] which is 5x better than mustache... [17:44] rick_h_: But I'll bet it can do a sweet todo list. [17:44]