[06:43] <ochosi> morning everyone
[06:45] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i recently got in touch with the current skippy-xd maintainer (that's the exposé feature for various wms, incl. xfmw4), if you're around please "pong" me :)
[07:44] <ochosi> hmm, i somehow like these sidebar-icons: http://dribbble.com/shots/147868-Mac-OS-X-Lion-Style-Sidebar-Icons
[10:17] <knome> hmm. some of them are a bit too cluttered (internal, usb hd, server - too bad those are the most used), but generally not bad
[10:18] <knome> the "internal" icon in this set:  http://dribbble.com/shots/356088-Mini-Icons  is better
[10:19] <knome> so i think just modifying the inside part (less contrast) could work
[10:27]  * madnick likes famfamfam, but I suppose they are outdated
[10:28] <ochosi> knome: what i like about the icons, especially the HD icon, is that they don't have the weird perspective of elementary's icon
[10:28] <ochosi> maybe we can at least refactor the 16px icons...
[10:29] <ochosi> i also like the color-scheme of those butw (almost monochrome/blueish)
[10:31] <knome> mm
[11:00] <knome> oh come on!
[11:00] <knome> clicking the "Home" icon on LO tries to go to /home/knome/Documents !
[11:41] <ochosi> LO?
[11:45] <soren> I'm going to guess LibreOffice.
[11:45] <ochosi> oh right
[11:46] <ochosi> then it kinda makes sense though
[11:46] <ochosi> (haven't found a home-button there though)
[12:39] <knome> ochosi, in "save"
[12:39] <knome> ochosi, top-right corner
[12:44] <knome> okie, send email and tweeted about the next community meeting
[12:58] <knome> did the ubuntu wiki just crash?
[13:24] <knome> astraljava, hmph. :)
[13:26] <knome> astraljava, when was the QA meeting with pleia2 scheduled again?
[13:33] <astraljava> knome: Sunday the 17th.
[13:33] <astraljava> knome: And yes, it seems to have.
[13:33] <knome> astraljava, okay. what's your schedule today?
[13:33] <astraljava> Bad.
[13:33] <knome> heh
[13:34] <knome> and i suppose tomorrow daytime isn't good either?
[13:34] <astraljava> Not really. What are we talking about?
[13:34] <knome> i was wondering if i'd get some help in reviewing the long test
[13:35] <astraljava> Sorry, no can do.
[13:35] <knome> yeah, np
[13:36] <knome> what about weekend then?
[13:37] <astraljava> Weekend will be better, apart from Saturday earlier than, say, 6 pm. (local time).
[13:38] <astraljava> But Sat. evening and the whole of Sunday will be fine.
[13:38] <knome> ok, if we seem to crash at irc the same time, remind me of the review if i don't do that first
[13:38] <astraljava> I'll try. :)
[13:38] <knome> great
[13:38] <astraljava> knome: What about the lead thingie? I see Testing team as empty now.
[13:38] <knome> astraljava, ah, right
[13:39] <astraljava> What's the policy on filling that position? Is there going to be a voting or something?
[13:39] <knome> i'll send yet another mail
[13:40] <knome> QA lead would be much more descriptive, right?
[13:40] <knome> or did we want to avoid that
[13:52] <knome> astraljava, ?
[14:42] <ochosi> knome: i really prefer the light-menus with greybird, they feel so much more easy to read...
[14:42] <ochosi> bbl
[16:43] <mips1911> IS there any way to get drop shadows on the panel?
[17:04] <holstein> mips1911: try http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=3588
[17:07] <mips1911> holstein, thx. I have all options ticked but no go
[17:08] <holstein> mips1911: are you using compositing?
[17:08] <holstein> mips1911: is it *that* big of a deal?
[17:11] <mips1911> holstein, yes enabled but not a big deal. Just trying to figure out if i can somehow enable it.
[17:13] <holstein> mips1911: you got other shadows?
[17:16] <mips1911> holstein, yes all other window etc shadows are working fine
[17:17] <mips1911> No worries though, just got a call and gotto go do something more important now, drink beer for someones birthday! :)
[17:17] <mips1911> Cheers, will pop back later.
[17:17] <holstein> mips1911: right on!
[17:18] <mips1911> pop in and I'll buy you one! ;)
[17:19] <holstein> mips1911: wow... i'll get in the car right now!! ;)
[19:18] <pleia2> knome: want me to add the next meeting to the google cal?
[19:41] <knome> pleia2, ah, yeah, that'd be cool
[19:41] <knome> pleia2, if you are there in 15 mins, i might need you :)
[19:42] <knome> brb
[21:48]  * pleia2 waves to knome 
[21:49] <knome> hai!
[21:49] <pleia2> busy worky day, but I'm about
[21:49] <knome> heh, if you're busy, then nvm :D
[21:51] <pleia2> nah it's ok
[21:51] <knome> okay
[21:51] <knome> i was thinking about the docs
[21:51]  * pleia2 nods
[21:51] <knome> we have loads of people ready to start working
[21:53] <knome> i was thinking whether the structure needed updating or not
[21:53] <pleia2> I don't know what the structure is :(
[21:53] <pleia2> (or anything about docs really)
[21:53] <knome> pleia2, are you on a xubuntu machine?
[21:54] <pleia2> yep
[21:54] <knome> pleia2, click applications menu -> help
[21:54] <pleia2> oh yes, I have *seen* the docs
[21:54] <pleia2> that say 11.10 :)
[21:54] <knome> pleia2, well yeah; i don't know more than you either then
[21:54] <knome> in the "Xubuntu Documentation", there's the structure
[21:55] <pleia2> yeah, I don't know where this all lives on launchpad though, how to change it, who can change it, translations?
[21:55] <knome> i don't know where it lives either...
[21:55] <knome> but i'm not too worried about the technical side
[21:56] <pleia2> ok
[21:56] <knome> i'm thinking "how can we unleash this 20-head group full of energy"
[21:56] <pleia2> ah yes, that
[21:58] <knome> i'm also thinking what's the necessary documentation to ship; how much do we have to worry about users not having internet, and what kind of documentation do we have to have for those who don't have internet
[21:59] <knome> i'm thinking that maybe the refreshed documentation needs to be more compact and easier to grasp
[21:59] <pleia2> so I read recently about changes to how xfce itself "ships" documentation and I'm wondering if that would impact us at all
[21:59] <knome> yes, that's another thing; could we just point to the xfce docs for DE-related issues?
[21:59] <knome> and of course, unleash some of that energy to write the xfce docs directly
[22:00] <pleia2> yeah
[22:00] <knome> and if we do that, how much documentation we need to maintain under xubuntu
[22:00] <knome> probably some ubuntu-specific stuff, but what about different applications?
[22:00] <pleia2> so it turns out we already do a pretty good job in our current docs of not rewriting things like "how to use abiword"
[22:00] <knome> hehe
[22:01] <knome> i'm thinking if it's too brave to drop any application-specific docs
[22:01] <knome> looks like the old docs even have a section listing different games for linux ;)
[22:02] <knome> "Strategy games require you to use careful tactics to plan the next move; simulation games let you explore and manage realistic models of such things as cities and vehicles. Strategy and simulation games can be quite addictive and many people happily spend hours playing their game of choice!"
[22:02] <pleia2> yeah
[22:02] <knome> i'm not so sure how relevant that is
[22:02] <pleia2> this needs a lot of love
[22:02] <knome> i've been thinking that we need a group of trustworthy people to go through what is needed and what now
[22:03] <knome> how much time have you reserved for the meeting on 17th?
[22:04] <pleia2> I have all morning, so I could be around for 3+ hours
[22:04] <knome> i could look through the docs today and create a quick proposal
[22:04] <pleia2> so I've done smaller scale (not 20 people, more like 3) documentation rewriting things at work, and we've essentially just dumped headlines from the docs into a wiki, assigned people sections, and then come back for meetings (we use svn and wiki for docs at work, but)
[22:05] <pleia2> er, but.. we'd need to look into what we use for xubuntu
[22:05] <knome> "use" ?
[22:05] <knome> oh, you mean the technical side?
[22:05] <pleia2> docbook
[22:05] <pleia2> yeah sorry, I am hung up on the technical side still :)
[22:05] <knome> i'd say we're not tied with anything
[22:05] <knome> we can keep with docbook, that's fine
[22:05] <pleia2> it matters because we have to control who has access to commits and things, and that workflow helps define how we structure the team
[22:05] <knome> but i'm not assuming the 20-head group will all (want to) learn docbook
[22:06] <pleia2> yeah, I'm thinking some will just do rewrites in .odt and submit them to docbook people
[22:06] <pleia2> or whatever
[22:06] <knome> agreed; otoh, i think the majority of this group will not stick for eternity anyway ;)
[22:06] <pleia2> yeah
[22:06] <knome> yes, or rewrites in the wiki or anything
[22:07] <knome> having 2 or 3 people with ability to do docbook would be ideal
[22:07] <pleia2> so I think we want to get ourselves to a point where we can assign sections to people and they write them whereever, and doc leads convert them into techie-style-whatever to commit them
[22:07] <knome> assigning sections to people is fine, but what if we did...
[22:07] <knome> for each section, set an assignee and a reviewer (for content and language)
[22:08] <knome> then point to the docbook-guys
[22:08] <pleia2> yeah
[22:08] <knome> i think we'd get better results if people had to work with others
[22:08]  * pleia2 nods
[22:08] <knome> "get as much feedback as you can as often as you can"
[22:09] <knome> i'm thinking only the people who will have commit access should be approved to the team
[22:09] <knome> but i'm also thinking that this group should be the group that shows commitment to continue contributing
[22:09] <pleia2> so that would probably just be the docbook folks
[22:10] <knome> yes, but at this time, it's really hard to say who should be in that group
[22:10] <pleia2> yeah
[22:10] <knome> we don't even know how many of the people will just not do anything!
[22:10] <pleia2> and whether having a lp group at all makes sense (could we give a group access to just the docs in our xuubntu world, or is it too tied in with -dev?)
[22:11] <pleia2> I mean, a committers group, having a doc team makes sense
[22:11] <knome> i think the LP group is there because some team needs to be part of ~ubuntu-doc
[22:11] <knome> right
[22:11] <knome> otoh, the -art or -website team is not everybody who is making some small contributions eitehr
[22:12] <pleia2> yeah
[22:12] <knome> i agree it might be a bit different with docs, but i'm sure (how negative thinking!) the -doc team will be just a few guys anyway
[22:12] <pleia2> if we make it easy, I think we could do well with docs
[22:13] <pleia2> the trouble wth ubuntu-docs is that it feels like to do anything you need to be super docbook guru and understand all the tools
[22:13] <pleia2> ubuntu-manual does all this much better
[22:13] <knome> i might be wrong but i think most of the people who have "signed in" now do not necessarily want to even be a part of a LP group
[22:14] <pleia2> yeah, there is always some attrition, but 20 is a nice start, we may end up with 5 solid contributors :)
[22:14] <pleia2> (that's about the ratio to people emailed: people doing work each week on UWN)
[22:15] <knome> i'm thinking [original_amount]*.15
[22:15] <knome> anyway, i agree with the fact that contributing should be as easy as possible
[22:15] <knome> this is what i want to offer for the 20 there
[22:15]  * pleia2 nods
[22:15] <knome> if some of them want to learn docbook too - fantastic!
[22:16] <knome> the other thing i was wondering...
[22:16] <pleia2> so, we should 1) find where docs live 2) confirm docbook 3) meet
[22:16] <knome> how many of the contributors are english-native?
[22:17] <knome> and how much spell-checking do we need to do
[22:17] <knome> and should we assign the english-fluent people to do that (too)
[22:17] <pleia2> good points
[22:17] <knome> and if we assign the english-fluent people to do that too, isn't that just... waste of resources?
[22:18] <knome> they could just write the docs themself
[22:18] <knome> and no special review would be needed
[22:18] <knome> but what would the non-english-fluent do then?
[22:19] <pleia2> I wonder if we just trust that folks volunteering are confident in their english skills, and we tweak as needed (if one section turns out really awkward, drag in a fluent speaker)
[22:19] <knome> we didn't say we want people who are confident
[22:20] <knome> what do you think of creating a list of the tasks where we need people, and tell to pick 2
[22:20] <pleia2> yeah, but I think volunteering to write english-language docs implies it
[22:20] <knome> writing/proof-reading/.../.../docbook
[22:20] <knome> or "pick 1"
[22:20] <knome> and let's see how the people group up
[22:20] <pleia2> that would be good
[22:22] <knome> so, what would the different groups be?
[22:22] <knome> is there more than three
[22:22] <pleia2> writing, editing, converting to docbook, final proofing and committing
[22:22] <pleia2> are the jobs I see
[22:23] <knome> editing meaning proof-reading and converting to sensible english? :P
[22:23] <pleia2> nd we probably need some administrative in there somewhere (planning meetings, setting deadlines, following up
[22:23] <pleia2> yeah, I suppose we should have technical editors too
[22:23] <knome> should we then tell people to pick 2?
[22:26] <pleia2> yeah
[22:26] <knome> so
[22:26] <knome> writer
[22:27] <knome> editor (proof-read and make understandable)
[22:27] <knome> what else?
[22:27] <pleia2> technical editor (right default apps are covered, doesn't say crazy wrong things)
[22:28] <pleia2> docbooks person
[22:29] <knome> or s/person/editor/ :)
[22:29] <knome> or s/person/manager/ ?
[22:30]  * pleia2 shrugs
[22:30] <pleia2> any will do
[22:30] <knome> hehe
[22:30] <pleia2> maybe editor is best
[22:30] <astraljava> knome: QA Lead does indeed sound much better, I somehow hear it more describing to my interests.
[22:31] <knome> astraljava, well that's decided anyway :)
[22:31] <knome> (see email at -devel)
[22:31] <astraljava> Weeelll there you have it. :)
[22:32] <knome> so what after docbook editor?
[22:32] <knome> final proofing?
[22:32] <pleia2> yeah, but that'll be a job pretty late in the game and hopefully won't find anything
[22:33] <knome> does the doc committers commit to ubuntu repos or somewhere else?
[22:34] <pleia2> I think we need to figure out the infrastructure before deciding that
[22:35] <pleia2> I think it's probably best to offer: writer, grammar editor, technical editor, docbooks editor
[22:36] <pleia2> and then go from there, everyone in the world can do final editing and just email changes to -devel if we want
[22:36] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation
[22:36] <knome> how does that look?
[22:37] <knome> should we convert the requirements to lists?
[22:37] <pleia2> I think that's a good start
[22:37] <knome> is that more understandable/graspable
[22:37] <pleia2> seems fine to me the way it is
[22:37] <knome> hmmh.
[22:37] <knome> i was thinking the other way
[22:37] <knome> quite hard to see immediately what's good for you
[22:38] <pleia2> well sure, if you want
[22:38] <knome> nah
[22:38] <pleia2> but they're all short enough at this time that it's not hard to read
[22:38] <knome> maybe it's for the best to expect some patience ;)
[22:38] <pleia2> yes, doc volunteers must be willing to actually read the docs we write for the volunteers ;)
[22:39] <knome> hehe
[22:43] <astraljava> What, you mean all the glory, fortune and fame don't come for nuthin'?! HUH?
[22:43] <knome> :)
[22:46] <knome> pleia2, mmh, so
[22:46] <knome> are you happy with the page now, should i send email about that?
[22:48] <pleia2> yeah go for it
[22:58] <knome> hmm, 9 applicants don't have public address provided at LP
[23:00] <knome> sent mail
[23:01] <knome> meh, 2 more delivery fails
[23:03] <pleia2> heh
[23:03] <knome> i'm sending privmsgs through LP
[23:03] <knome> astraljava told the limit might be 4 per day
[23:03] <knome> let's see if i need help :P
[23:04] <knome> WFF?
[23:04] <knome> three??!
[23:04] <Unit193> Well, I am here.
[23:04] <knome> title:  IMPORTANT; Xubuntu documentation
[23:05] <knome> content:  You've applied to the Xubuntu documentation team. Please see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008243.html
[23:05] <knome> Unit193, i'll PM you three nicks
[23:06] <knome> actually, i'll ask #launchpad first.
[23:09] <knome> astraljava, pleia2: still there?
[23:09] <pleia2> mhmm
[23:10] <knome> pleia2, i'll send you three nicks too
[23:12] <knome> somebody else from the team hanging? ;)
[23:13] <Unit193> I know other LP people. :P
[23:13] <knome> i'd like it to come from xubuntu team members at least
[23:13] <knome> it's kind of spooky if random people contact you :D
[23:14] <Unit193> Figured, and makes sense.
[23:14] <knome> muahahah, three more days and people will expire from the team
[23:14] <knome> then i'll be the only member!
[23:14]  * knome laughs manically
[23:41] <pleia2> oh yeah, Unit193 and I were added to #xubuntu and #xubuntu-offtopic access lists today
[23:41] <knome> hah, and i was "added" to the #xubuntu-ot list too
[23:41] <knome> :P
[23:42] <pleia2> keeping them synced must be fun
[23:42] <knome> mm-hmm
[23:42] <knome> and congrats ;)
[23:42] <knome> i'll leave the op duties to you now
[23:42] <knome> :]
[23:42] <pleia2> "here, more work!"
[23:42] <pleia2> :)
[23:42] <knome> haha, yeah!
[23:42] <pleia2> the channels are mostly fine though
[23:42]  * pleia2 knocks on wood
[23:42] <knome> i was thiking if there were people interested in the mailing list moderation
[23:43] <knome> especially -users
[23:44] <Unit193> pleia2 is stalking me...
[23:44] <pleia2> <3
[23:45] <pleia2> I should keep up with -users more, I'd think we we'd want to add folks who do good work there (so they're already paying attention) but I don't know who to suggest
[23:46] <knome> what if we just asked them? :P
[23:46] <pleia2> I got added as a moderator for ubuntu-users once, it was tricky trying to figure out exactly which level of hell it was
[23:46] <knome> "who'd like to"
[23:46] <knome> lol
[23:46] <knome> xubuntu-users is not too bad (maybe only a few floors down)
[23:46] <pleia2> hehe
[23:47] <pleia2> yeah, I think the high volume of ubuntu-users caused it to be a particularly special case :)
[23:47] <pleia2> this was all while the CC was trying to tame it (it got nasty for a while), things are better these days
[23:48] <Unit193> I'm not even on it. >_>
[23:48] <knome> argh
[23:48] <knome> how do i access about:config on tb agian
[23:49] <knome> oh, there, good