/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/09/#ubuntu-manual.txt

thorwilgodbyk: i initially though of generating half-title SVGs via regex. but as PDFs are the actual goal, i will check now if inkscape on the cli can do that07:40
godbykinkscape can convert from svg to pdf on the command-line.07:40
godbykthorwil: inkscape --export-text-to-path --export-pdf=output.pdf input.svg07:41
thorwilyes, and it has an only-this-layer flag, which i only used for PNG export, s far07:41
godbykooh, nice. I didn't know about that flag.07:41
thorwilyesterday, i had to learn that regex matching on a multi-line pattern sucks, be it sed or awk. and a last quick attempt with perl didn't work out, either07:43
godbykthorwil: That's true. Though most regex systems have a flag you can set to allow . to match end-of-line characters.07:43
godbykIf SVG is true XML, then we could also use a real XML parser to make the modifications.07:43
thorwilgodbyk: i think i got sed to handle that, but than stumbled over its greedy matching :)07:44
godbykthorwil: Ha! There's that, too. Another flag can let you work around that sometimes.07:44
thorwilgodbyk: i considered that, but i doubt we want a dependency on xsltproc or07:45
thorwilsaxon07:46
godbykWell, it'd really only be a dependency for you or me or whoever generates the title pages and covers.07:47
benonsoftwareSorry to bother all but whats the bzr command to get the lastest branch?07:49
thorwilgodbyk: inkscape --export-pdf=half-title_en.pdf --export-id=title --export-area-page titlepage-en.svg07:50
godbykbenonsoftware: bzr pull07:50
godbykbenonsoftware: Or if you don't have the precise branch checked out yet: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/precise ubuntu-manual-precise07:51
godbykthorwil: Cool. So the --export-id will snag just the one element we care about?07:51
thorwilgodbyk: yes. and without --export-area-page, it would use the bounding box of the content07:52
benonsoftwareThanks godbyk07:52
thorwilgodbyk: now, a bash script to generate half-title PDFs for all titlepage_*.svg in the dir, or a script that takes an argument?07:53
godbykthorwil: Probably takes an argument.07:53
godbykthorwil: My inkscape takes so long to start up right now because it has to load my huge font collection.07:54
godbykI wish there were a 'ignore all the fonts but those required for this svg' command-line option. :)07:54
thorwilgodbyk: here it's instant on the shell, while the gui does take time07:54
godbykI'll give it a shot here.07:55
godbykthorwil: Ah, you're right. It is fast on the command line.07:56
thorwilgodbyk: i'll write a script that takes an svg as arg and add it to the repo07:56
godbykthorwil: Cool. Thanks!07:57
thorwilnow how do i combine ${f##titlepage} with ${f%.*}?08:24
thorwilto get "-en" out of "titlepage-en.svg", for example08:25
godbykthorwil: In a Makefile or bash script?08:29
thorwilbash08:30
godbykthorwil: You could run it through sed: LANG=$(echo $FILENAME | sed -e 's/titlepage-//' -e 's/.svg')08:30
godbykOr you could use bash's substring stuff since the titlepage- prefix is constant.08:31
godbykLANG=$(basename ${FILENAME:10} .svg)08:32
godbyk(where 10 is the starting position)08:32
godbykInstead of using the ## and % operators, you could use sed or basename. They're pretty standard.08:34
godbyk(I've never actually used the ## and % stuff in bash. Didn't realize they existed. I'll have to try to remember them.)08:34
thorwilso far the only way i found to combine them is by using a variable in between08:37
godbykthorwil: I think you may be right.08:40
godbykthorwil: Btw, when I replaced the header.png (UM logo) on our website, I noticed that there's also a header_rtl.png file: http://ubuntu-manual.org/images/header_rtl.png08:41
godbykI'm not sure if it's actually used or not.08:41
thorwilgodbyk: http://ubuntu-manual.org/?lang=ar08:42
godbykAh, snazzy!08:44
godbykDo you have an updated RTL logo, then?08:45
thorwilgodbyk: no, one moment and i create one in that size08:46
godbykthorwil: 'kay. Thanks. No rush!08:46
thorwilgodbyk: half-title script pushed (rev 93)08:52
manualbothttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/93 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 9308:52
godbykthorwil: I'll pull it and take a look at it. Thanks!08:52
thorwilnp08:52
thorwilit's pretty nice how handling args as array also makes it work for wildcard expansion08:54
godbykyeah.  well, bash expands the stuff before it passes it in as arguments to the script.08:55
thorwilwell aware of that, as i wrote enough for-loops for commands that can't handle lists of filenames :)08:56
godbykme too. :)08:57
thorwilgodbyk: thanks for taking care of replacing the logo09:04
thorwilgodbyk: rtl version: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/t_w_%40freenet.de-20120609090229-0t4ne2fs4yjl8hyg/ump_logo_h64_rtl.png-20120609090145-8z4980qs6mj5eay8-1/ump_logo_h64_rtl.png09:04
godbykthorwil: No problem.09:04
godbykthorwil: Updated: http://ubuntu-manual.org/?lang=ar09:06
thorwilbloddy caching, shift-f5 to the rescue. excellent!09:20
smjmshi, anyone here?09:21
thorwilhi smjms, yes09:21
godbykHey, thorwil. I fancied up your half-title page script. Now with colors! (Making errors unreadable. ;-))09:21
godbykHello, smjms.09:22
thorwilgodbyk: heh, you don't like short scripts, eh?09:23
godbykthorwil: They're too boring. ;-)09:24
godbykActually, I figured I'd add in some error-checking to help catch my stupid mistakes later.09:24
godbykOtherwise I end up having to read through the script code to figure out how to run the thing each time.09:24
smjmsso the manual is made with LaTeX?09:40
godbyksmjms: Yes.09:41
smjmsWhy is there no justification?09:41
godbyksmjms: Because justifying text can make it difficult to read. Also, having the text set ragged right makes it appear a bit friendlier.  (In short, it was a design decision.)09:42
smjmsdo you know 'microtype' package?09:42
godbyksmjms: Yes. Unfortunately, it doesn't work quite as nicely with XeLaTeX.09:42
smjms:I oh09:43
godbykthorwil, smjms: Which times symbol do you like better? http://kevin.godby.org/temp/times.png09:48
smjmsthe first one seems a bit too high09:48
thorwilyes, too high09:49
smjmsor the numbers too low09:49
godbyksmjms: It's centered vertically (I think), but we're using old-style figures.09:49
godbykWe're currently using the second symbol, but I think it's a bit large.09:49
thorwilthe second doesn't sit quite right, either, but still better09:49
godbykThe first × is the one that comes with the text face.09:50
godbykI wish I could split the difference. :)09:50
godbykI'm off to bed. i'll see you guys at the meeting later. G'night!09:58
thorwilgood night!09:59
smjmsgreat night!10:02
smjmsmeeting?10:02
benonsoftwareWhat time is the meeting at?10:03
thorwilbenonsoftware, smjms: see http://www.doodle.com/ywrkhi3pa5d6s4kh#10:03
benonsoftwareOhm, yes. It's at 3AM for me L.10:04
benonsoftware:/*10:04
thorwilagenda: http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting10:04
=== SMJ is now known as smjms
vibhavHas the meeting started?16:50
jconnett_Greetings!17:12
=== godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting agenda: http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
hannieHello everyone18:01
PaddyLandauHello Hannie18:01
jimcGreetings from the Pacific Northwest in USA18:01
carstenHello together18:01
hanniehey PaddyLandau glad you join us18:01
PaddyLandauThank you.18:01
* godbyk is getting a glass of water.. will be right back.18:02
thorwilhi everyone18:02
TonyPHi Hannie18:02
ajmontaghello all18:02
hanniewelcome jimc carsten thorwil TonyP18:02
jimc...glad to be here18:02
kereltisHi guys18:02
hanniejimc, are you overworked yet? ;)18:02
hanniehi kereltis18:03
godbykHello, everyone.18:03
jimc...funny you should ask...will email the group on a followup to my editing of "getting online" (my head hurts)18:03
hanniehey godbyk18:03
godbykc7p said he may be a bit late to today's meeting and that we shouldn't wait on him.18:03
hanniejimc, ow18:03
hannieok, then we are complete I suppose18:04
jimcLet's go!18:04
godbykAll right, we'll get started.18:04
godbyk#startmeeting18:04
meetingologyMeeting started Sat Jun  9 18:04:51 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.18:04
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired18:04
hanniehttp://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting18:05
godbykThe meeting agenda is at <http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting>18:05
godbyk#topic Attendance18:05
godbykFirst off, we'll take attendance.18:05
godbykIf everyone present could just say 'hello'.18:05
* c7p waves18:05
hanniehey c7p18:05
godbykHey, c7p.18:05
PaddyLandauhello18:05
c7phello18:05
thorwilhello18:05
kereltishello18:05
TonyPhello18:05
jimchello18:05
ajmontaghello18:05
carstenhello18:05
hanniehello18:05
godbykThanks.18:06
godbyk#topic New member introductions18:06
godbykDo we have any new members here today?18:06
PaddyLandauYes, I am a new member.18:06
TonyPI am Tony Pursell.  I live in the UK.  You can see me at https://launchpad.net/~ajpursell and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TonyPursell. I have volunteered to do editing on this project18:06
jimcI am. Glad to be here.  Have been contributing for about three weeks now. Great project. An honor to be a part of this work in progress.18:06
PaddyLandauI see I need to say more. I also live in the UK, in Oxford. I volunteered for proof-reading after being asked to. I am not familiar with IRC, so please forgive me if I make etiquette mistakes.18:07
godbykAwesome! Thanks a lot for your help, guys.  Feel free to pester us with questions on IRC or the mailing list.18:07
hanniejimc, PaddyLandau TonyP carsten all new and eager18:07
PaddyLandauLOL18:07
godbyk#topic Editing and proofreading process / status reports18:08
godbykOur original schedule has 15 June as the deadline for editing.18:08
godbykI wanted to check in with our editors to see how things are going.18:09
godbykHave you hit any snags or encountered any problems?18:09
godbykAre things going fairly smoothly?18:09
godbykDo you think you'll be able to complete your assigned sections/chapters on time?18:09
hannieFirst we want to hear from the editors if they are ok, then I will say something about the status18:10
jimcFrom my vantage, things are going well. Challenges include getting up to speed on tex tags and my obsessive editing.18:10
ajmontagHave all the sections been converted from Libre Office to LaTeX that needed to be?18:10
TonyPI should be OK with Ubuntu One section. I have done some and will review it again.18:11
hannieajmontag, yes18:11
jimcUsing the Desktop is pretty much done (will want to do one more pass through in a few days)18:11
jimcI just finished editing the Advanced Topics section this morning...will commit and push later today.18:11
hanniejimc, that was the chapter that needed a lot of work, so thanks for what you did18:12
jimchannie, no problem...sort of jumped directly into the fire with that one.18:12
hanniegood!18:12
jimcI 'accidentally' edited the Burining CD section last night as well...still needs screenshots.18:13
hanniejimc, ok, I will put it on the sheet18:13
jimcThe GettingOnline section needs more work and I'm taking care of that at this time.18:14
jimcAnyone else?18:14
hannieIf editors have no questions or remarks, shall I proceed with the details?18:14
PaddyLandauI have a question as a proof-reader. Is this the right time?18:15
godbykPaddyLandau: Sure, fire away!18:15
hanniego ahead18:15
PaddyLandauOK...18:15
PaddyLandauI have been using gedit and Meld to edit the files. However, they do not show the finished product, which means it is easy to slip in syntax errors, e.g. with tags.18:16
PaddyLandauI found that Gummi is a brilliant Latex editor, showing the results as you type.18:16
PaddyLandauHowever...18:16
PaddyLandauGummi does not recognise many of the Ubuntu tags, such as \keystroke.18:16
PaddyLandauDoes anyone know if it is possible to add the Ubuntu style files (well, I'm presuming they are style files -- I may wrong) to Gummi?18:17
PaddyLandauIf not, don't worry, I'll just continue with gedit and Meld.18:17
TonyPI just keep re-making the PDF18:17
PaddyLandauThat's quite tiresome, isn't it?18:17
godbykPaddyLandau: I haven't used Gummi. I'm not sure if it's possible to teach it the Ubuntu Manual tags or not. Sorry.18:17
jimcWineFish is a great editor, especially with regards to tags (open close brackets)...parallels what you'd see in an IDE environment.  Worth a try.18:17
PaddyLandauWineFish. I'll try it, thanks.18:18
hanniePaddyLandau, you have installed TeX Live, so you can make the pdf file any time you want18:18
c7pfrom what is see Gummi has  Customizable compilation/typesetting options , is that what we need ?18:18
PaddyLandauHannie: I'll learn how to do that and see. It's not quite the same as seeing it immediately, but it would help.18:18
hannieno wysiwyg18:19
PaddyLandauc7p: Where did you see those options?18:19
jimcI think getting everyone on the same editing environment would definitely advance the editing process...common environment, common configuration. May be a good thing to pursue for 12.10.18:19
c7phttp://dev.midnightcoding.org/projects/gummi/wiki/Index18:19
godbykPaddyLandau: Can gummi not compile the manual?18:19
PaddyLandauc7p: Thanks, I'll look into it.18:19
jimcI've tried Gummi, too...no compilation.18:19
PaddyLandaugodbyl: No, it cannot, because it does not recognise the Ubuntu tags.18:20
hanniejimc, I think it does not matter what editor you use, as long as you put in the right code18:20
godbykStrange.18:20
PaddyLandauWell, I'll have a look into it, and if I find an answer, I'll let you all know. Thanks for all the replies.18:20
godbykPaddyLandau: Make sure you have gummi compile using XeLaTeX instead of pdfLaTeX.18:20
godbykPaddyLandau: Otherwise, it should find the Ubuntu Manual–specific stuff in the same directory as the main .tex file.18:21
PaddyLandauHmm, these are things I don't quite understand. Is that in the Gummi options?18:21
jimchannie, but a lack of uniformity in how we implement tags could be easily resolved with an importable xml file into any editor18:21
godbykPaddyLandau: Looking at the screenshots, it's under preferences > compilation tab > texlive with xetex18:21
jimcPaddyLandau, I'll give this a try!  Thanks.  Would be nice to see edits live.18:21
* c7p it looks interesting 18:22
hannieI suggest we exchange experiences with Gummi on the mailing list18:22
PaddyLandauAh, I see that. I do not have the option to change it. It is set at TexLive with PdfTex, and the other options are greyed out.18:22
jimcI also have a question (seems a little pithy with the previous discussion)...18:22
godbykThere are other editors that can do some live compiling, too.  I believe TeXworks can do that.18:22
jimcCan we agree on one space after a period or two?  I think the accepted standard is ONE, but I'm seeing both.18:22
hanniejimc, one18:23
PaddyLandaugodbyk: I'll have a look at TeXworks, thanks.18:23
godbykjimc: It doesn't matter in the source. LaTeX will use the proper spacing when it typesets it.18:23
hannietwo is one too much18:23
jimcgodbyk, AWESOME...thanks.18:23
PaddyLandaujimc: Two spaces came from the old days of manual and electronic typewriters; one space is handled correctly with modern automated typesetting.18:23
PaddyLandauSo, one space is the standard these days.18:23
jimcPaddyLandau, beauty!  No more looking for spaces.18:24
jimcI have no more questions.18:24
hanniethanks for the tip, godbyk didn't know that18:24
godbykOkay, hannie. Did you want to talk about editing a bit?18:24
hannieok, I will talk about some details (agenda)18:25
hannie1. Allow authors to write in LO18:25
hannieI think it is too much work converting odt files, so I am against it18:25
godbykWe'll put these under their own topics to make the minutes easier to read.18:26
godbyk#topic Editing with LibreOffice18:26
hannieright18:26
hannieWhat do other think about this?18:26
hannie*others18:26
PaddyLandauI personally would find editing in LO a distraction, because it would all have to be converted to LaTex.18:27
godbykI tend to agree with hannie: I think it's easier if we get edited .tex files (even if they have syntax errors or other issues).18:27
carstenSorry, I lost internet connection...18:27
jimcI agree, too, Hannie.  Our previous discussion about editing applications prove that there is really no advantage to using LO.18:27
thorwilit could be handled, if there was automatic conversion18:27
carstenWhat did I miss?18:27
thorwilbut i guess we have no one deep enough in LO/ODF to take care of that18:27
c7pi agree too18:27
hanniecarsten, we currently talk about odt file conversion18:27
PaddyLandaucarsten: Is it possible to cut-and-paste and send it to you?18:27
kereltisI think it's a good idea, it will attract more authors/editors to the project and then we can say the manual was created using stock Ubuntu.18:27
jimcMost tex editors are simply TEXT editors at heart (can you say Windows NotePad?)...with added features if desired.18:27
c7pwe should take that into consideration too kereltis18:28
hannieI agree here. Authors do not necessarily have to add latex code. others can do it for them18:28
ajmontagregarding odt conversion: I found that things like marginnotes, screenshot marginnotes, and menu -> traills did not get written properly in LO18:29
PaddyLandauOne problem with using LO is that you may be tempted to use features that LaTex does not support. That would hinder the process of converting.18:29
godbykHas anyone here been using LibreOffice to write/edit sections or chapters?18:29
jimcIF we go this path, we may need a little more organization at the odt integration level...seems we got a few "late" submissions this time around.18:29
carstenPaddyLandau: You mean an odf file? Sure send it.18:29
jimcgodbyk, not I.18:29
hanniecarsten, is the specialist here ;)18:29
carstenBest would be to the list18:29
carstenWell, specialist is good^^18:30
godbykOkay.18:30
carstenMost of this work is handmade :-)18:31
hanniePaddyLandau, you can save an odt file as a text file and then add the code18:31
godbykWhen I've converted from LibreOffice files to .tex files, I found that it took a lot of work to add the markup by hand after the fact.18:31
godbykI had to read through everything carefully and decide myself how to tag everything. (And to figure out when the author wanted something to be a margin note, for instance.)18:31
jimcgodbyk, haven't done this, but EASILY agree based on my new experiences.18:31
hannieSo, may we conclude that it is better NOT to write in LO?18:31
PaddyLandauHannie: I suppose I could, but gedit colours the tags and other code to make it easier to follow. LO does not do that.18:31
ajmontagI think it would be better to force people to write in LaTeX, but then have designated LaTeX proofreaders for those who are not confident18:32
PaddyLandauajmontag: That makes sense to me.18:32
godbykI propose the following:18:32
hannieajmontag, no, they can write in a normal text editor18:32
ajmontaggodbyk: i agree18:32
jimcajmontag, and by doing this (specific LaTeX editors), you will bring uniformity to the tags...brilliant!18:32
godbykWe'll disallow LibreOffice. For those who don't want to or aren't able to compile the .tex files, they can submit their .tex files to an editor and have one of them check the syntax and commit it to bzr.18:33
PaddyLandaujimc, etc.: Surely the person can use whichever *text* editor he prefers?18:33
hannie+118:33
ajmontaghannie, jimc: I think people can use any editor (i use Sublime Text 2)18:33
godbykPaddyLandau: I think you can use whichever text editor you like.18:33
PaddyLandaugodbyk: Cool. If we can find a LaTex editor that recognises Ubuntu tags, that would help things, but it wouldn't be mandatory.18:34
ajmontagtext editors are a personal preference18:34
jimc...I meant specific PEOPLE who would be designated as LaTeX editors.18:34
godbykPaddyLandau: Right. You can also run 'make' from the command line to build the PDF.18:34
jimc...the small group of LaTeX editors could agree on tags to use, when, etc.18:34
ajmontagjimc, good idea18:35
hanniejimc, that is how it mainly works at this moment (latex editors who check/add code where necessary)18:35
PaddyLandauWe have the style-sheet guide already, to which I have been referring quite often.18:35
TonyPCan you just compile small sections to PDF?18:35
godbykTonyP: There's no easy way to do that at the moment, I'm afraid.18:36
jimchannie, PaddyLandau, true.18:36
TonyPPity18:36
godbykSpeaking of the style guide, if anyone has any questions / suggestions / comments / concerns / etc. about it please email me.18:36
PaddyLandaugodbyk: That would be a problem for me, as I only get short sections to proof-read. That's why I wanted something like Gummi (sorry to mention it again).18:36
carstenTonyP, yes. Just comment all sections which you don't want to see in the main.tex18:36
jimcTonyP, agreed.  That would be NICE!18:36
jimccarsten, UGH!  That would take forever, wouldn't it?18:37
hanniePaddyLandau, you can easily navigate to "your" section in the pdf file18:37
godbykMy only concern with modifying main.tex to only show your chapter is that it might accidentally get committed to bzr.18:37
PaddyLandauHannie: Yes, I have been doing that. But I would not be able to "make" the PDF file from the section that you have given me, so I have no way to check my editing for syntax or other errors, apart from spelling mistakes.18:38
godbykPaddyLandau: Ah, right. You'll need all the .tex files to build the PDF.18:38
hanniePaddyLandau, why don't you just navigate to the section you are working on to check it?18:39
jimcMe thinks it would be MUCH faster to re-make everytime than to comment out sections.18:39
godbykjimc: Probably.18:39
TonyPIs it possible to have a make option to use a mymain.tex18:40
jimchannie, I think PaddyLandau is trying to find a way to ONLY compile the section being edited rather than the 150 page manual each time a change is made.18:40
PaddyLandaugodbyk: That's right. That's why I'd love a text editor that shows changes on-the-fly. I will take today's suggestions to try to find out how to fix Gummi or an equivalent to recognise Ubuntu's tags, and let you all know if I succeed.18:40
PaddyLandauHannie: I can't do that, because I can't make the PDF.18:40
hannieI see no need for making separate sections/chapters. Make only takes less than a minute18:40
godbykIt does take a little time to learn to trust your abilities in editing the .tex files. But after a while, you find that you don't need to rebuild the PDF as frequently to check formatting, etc.18:40
hannieIt is done in a jiffy18:40
jimcgodbyk, experience speaking, I agree.18:41
ajmontaggodbyk, agreed. Once you are comfortable with the tags its not a big deal18:41
PaddyLandauMaybe I'm missing something. Is it possible to make the PDF when I have just the one section that I am proof-reading?18:41
hanniegodbyk, enough said on LO?18:41
jimcPaddyLandau, NO.18:41
ajmontagIf you are unsure you can always check the style guide :)18:41
godbykPaddyLandau: No. You need the entire bzr repository to build the PDF18:41
PaddyLandaugodbyk: Yes, that's what I was thinking.18:41
jimcgodbyk, yes18:41
godbykhannie: I think so.18:41
godbykLet's move on to our next agenda item.18:41
jimcGO18:42
godbyk#topic Authors and editors working as a team18:42
godbykHannie?18:42
hanniehttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydEdaSnhSX2M2WDdSZ3VGQk1qMDZBbHc#gid=118:42
carstenWell jimc, I yust tried the \begin{comment   \end{comment} in main.tex to compile only the installation section. It took the only 15 sec compared to the whole document with 1 minute.18:42
hannieStatus draft18:42
hanniegodbyk, I pasted a link to our spreadsheet where everyone can see the current status18:43
jimccarsten, AHHHH, my bad...forgot about the main.tex file.  I was thinking all sub- .tex files would need editing!  My apologies.18:43
godbykcarsten: You might also look into the \includeonly macro. But be careful that you never commit your main.tex changes to bzr. It'll confuse everyone else. :-)18:43
carstenYes of course godbyk.18:44
c7pgj hannie18:44
hannieHave a look at the sheet 12.04 finished18:44
godbykhannie: Thanks. Are there sections that still need editors or do we have everything covered now?18:44
carstenI use Bazaar Explorer, who is showing very well which files are modified.18:44
hannieI think we can cover it with the team of editors we have18:45
hannieThanks to all their hard work!18:45
jimc....not to throw us off topic, but one quick question...18:45
hanniejimc, ?18:46
jimcwill we have a debrief after 12.04 is released? I have a few suggestions on the editing process (structurally).18:46
godbykjimc: Absolutely.18:46
hanniegood suggestion18:46
jimcGreat.  Thanks.18:46
PaddyLandauAnother off-topic: May I ask why the deadline for the manual is *after* the release of the distribution? It seems the wrong way around to me.18:46
godbykjimc: We'd definitely like to gather suggestions and ideas for improving the process for 12.10.18:46
jimcgodbyk, count me in!18:46
hanniePaddyLandau, not everyone installs the beta version in VM18:47
godbykPaddyLandau: Well, we got a late start.18:47
jimcPaddyLandau, the software has to be released in it's final version before a manual can be written.18:47
PaddyLandauHannie, godbyk, jimc: OK.18:47
godbykPaddyLandau: Also, we do have to wait to take screenshots until after UI freeze, for instance.18:47
PaddyLandauRight, makes sense.18:47
hannieI think the difference between precise and quantal will be even smaller18:47
kereltisPaddyLandau, we're working on ways to improve this and we have created a guide for installing the beta in a vm for new authors18:48
godbykWe could write a lot of the manual earlier -- as long as they don't change things at the last minute. :)18:48
jimcLTS vs minor!  Wohoo!18:48
PaddyLandauLOL, godbyk, yes, I know exactly what you mean! It has been done with Precise.18:48
hannieNext time we'll do it in one month :)18:48
c7phell yeah !18:49
godbykhannie: Shall we move on to the next topic or did you have more to say on this one?18:49
jimchannie, you a taskmaster!18:49
hanniegodbyk, ok18:49
godbyk#topic Style guide18:49
hanniegodbyk, you forgot teams18:49
godbykThis deals with when you use \menu vs. \application. The capitalization and spelling of words. Etc.18:50
godbykhannie: That's what we were just discussing. :)18:50
godbykDo you want to go back to that?18:50
hanniegodbyk, the previous item was "Status draft"18:50
godbykhannie: The previous topic was "Authors and editors working as a team"18:51
godbyk#topic Authors and editors working as a team (redux)18:51
hannieWell, I just wanted to know from authors/editors if they want to use a shared document18:51
godbykhannie: Ah, go ahead.18:51
hannieIn the previous meeting Bryan explained how we worked with Learning More18:52
hannieWe use a shared document (just publish the .tex file in UbuntuOne)18:52
PaddyLandauA shared document would be a problem if there was not strict locking on sections that were being worked on. I don't know, however, how it would affect your (Hannie's) workflow as a controller.18:52
hannieSo author and editor can see what is changed and they can discuss it if necessary18:52
hanniePaddyLandau, you share it only with your editor18:53
godbykPaddyLandau: I think the document is shared only between the author and their section/chapter editor.18:53
PaddyLandauOh, I see. How would it work exactly?18:53
hannieThe author publishes his .tex file, the editor adds changes which the author can see18:53
PaddyLandauOK. That would do away with your current method of working with Meld, I suppose?18:54
jimcPaddyLandau, if there were locking controls in shared environment where only "assigned" editors would have access to authored sections, then I would be in agreement with this approach.18:54
hannieif there is a disagreement or a special point they can discuss it in the comment section18:54
PaddyLandauI don't have a problem with that, as long as the editor in question highlights the syntax (as gedit does at the moment).18:55
hannieIt worked well for me, so if others want to do the same they can do so18:55
PaddyLandauWithout that highlighting, it becomes hard to find one's way around.18:55
godbykPaddyLandau: You could use whichever text editor you like. It'll be a .tex file on your computer.18:55
jimcMaybe try this approach with 12.10 since we've already established it would be minor at best?18:55
jimchannie, would this create another layer of management and logistics for you?18:56
hannieok, I can describe this in an email to the m/list18:56
hanniejimc, it would need less emails from my side18:56
carstenhannie: this would be good18:57
jimchannie, good that it's a win for you, then.18:57
PaddyLandauI have no objection if it helps your workflow.18:57
hannieNow I function as an intermediate18:57
hannieok, I will send an email on this18:57
hanniefor the next version18:57
jimcI think this is a great idea!18:58
hanniegodbyk, before you get confused, next item is create wiki page ;)18:58
jimcCould we get U1 to comp us a 10GB space? (*grin*)18:58
godbykhannie: I like to reword them to confuse you. :-P18:58
ajmontagI have to leave, its nice to have such a good turn out! Thanks for all your work, editors!18:58
godbyk#topic Style guide18:58
hannielol18:58
godbykThanks for coming, ajmontag.18:58
hanniebye ajmontag thank you for being with us18:59
PaddyLandauBye ajmontag18:59
jimcStyle guide...GO18:59
kereltiscya ajmontag18:59
carstenBye ajmontag18:59
c7pcya18:59
hanniehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual18:59
kereltisvery nice!19:00
hannieI am thinking of using a wiki page where everyone can add remarks, rules etc. See my link19:00
* godbyk is scared to look at the ancient wiki. 19:00
c7p:P19:00
hanniewe can wipe out what's there and use it for other things19:01
godbykI think that the good part of using a wiki for the style guide stuff is that it's easy for everyone to access.  (Easier than downloading a PDF, at least.)19:01
godbykA bad point is that anyone can change it so we may lose consistency.19:01
hannieExample: our translation team uses a wiki vocabulary where everyone can add words19:01
PaddyLandauhannie, what sort of remarks? I notice in the agenda that you mention things like tags, panels, and so forth. But aren't they all already in the style guide?19:02
jimcI agree with godbyk...more dynamic...seemingly less work in the end.19:02
kereltissticking with the LTS latest LTS release is probably a good thing though so it's not really that old :)19:02
hanniePaddyLandau, I gave the \menu example because in the previous version we used \application{Dash}19:02
jimcI also agree with godbyk (again)...welcome to the world of WIKIs!19:02
PaddyLandauRight, so it would list things that you may not be aware of that have changed in the guide?19:03
PaddyLandauAnd other things, too, I realise.19:03
hannieWiki's have advantages and disadvantages19:03
godbykOur current style guide is at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>19:03
PaddyLandaugodbyk: Yes, I refer to that quite often.19:03
godbykI update it occasionally, but haven't been keeping up with it as much as I'd like.19:03
godbykI'm definitely open to suggestions with regard to the style guide.19:04
hannieI do not mean to put the style guide on a wiki. I talk about general rules (grammar, spelling, etc.)19:04
PaddyLandauAnd with a Wiki, it would take some of the pressure of you?19:04
godbykI most recently added a Word List chapter that shows the proper spelling and formatting of some terms. I plan on expanding this greatly as I edit the 12.04 manual.19:04
carstengodbyk, one point for the pdf style guide: It doesnt19:04
carsten... need so much empty pages. It is no book to print, or?19:04
hannieok, my suggestion for a wiki page is not such a good one. NP:)19:05
godbykcarsten: Ah, you're probably right. I'm just using the same template as we're using for the manual itself.19:05
godbykhannie: We could add some of that to the style guide, too.19:05
jimcHmm...I'm leaning more toward the style guide being more "controlled" than what is offered in a wiki environment.19:06
carstenI think, its a working document, where you want to see a lot information with one view19:06
godbykhannie: Though I think it may be easier to point to existing sources for general grammar rules.  (There are too many for us to cover alone.)19:06
godbykThe Ubuntu Docs wiki has a style guide with some grammar remarks (though not nearly exhaustive).19:06
hannieright. One more remark on this:19:06
godbykjimc: I agree with you there.19:06
hanniewe discussed on the list when to add the tag \application and when not. But I cannot find it in the archive19:07
godbykHere's the docs team style guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide19:07
hannieTherefore I was thinking of putting things we discussed on a wiki page19:07
hannieor in the style guide (even better)19:07
TonyPThe style guide seems wrong about \application19:08
hannieTonyP, we discussed in on the mailing list19:08
carstenAnd for the wiki version of the style guide: You can get emails from the system, if the page is changed, so you can easily follow any modification.19:08
hanniebut I forgot what we decided19:08
godbykTonyP: In what way?19:08
* godbyk pulls up his copy of the style guide.19:09
hanniegodbyk, in Browsing the web I see a lot of \application{Dash}19:09
hannieand \aplication{Launcher}19:09
hannie*p19:10
TonyPWhat should it do?19:10
hannie\menu19:10
godbykhannie: I noticed that the other day, too, but haven't fixed it yet. Since those aren't stand-alone applications, I don't think they should be tagged as such.19:10
hannieNo, we discussed that on the mailing list like I said19:10
godbykTonyP: At the moment, it doesn't do anything. It used to mark the text in bold and add an entry to the index automatically.19:10
hanniegodbyk, is tag \application no longer an entry to the index?19:11
godbykhannie: It isn't at the moment, though we can add that back easily enough.19:11
hanniethe disadvantage is that if you use it all the time the index gets clogged19:12
godbykhannie: Here's an old thread about \application: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02835.html19:12
godbykWe discussed it more recently, too. Lemme find the thread.19:12
hannieYes, I remember we discussed \index with MarioB19:13
godbykOkay, it looks like the more recent thread isn't in the archives yet.19:13
hannieAgain, when we decide something via the list it should be noted somewhere19:13
TonyPThe Style Guide says: The names of applications should be typeset with the19:14
TonyP\application command. is will add the application to the index auto-19:14
TonyPmatically.19:14
godbykIt has the subject "Authors/editors chapter 2" and is dated May 23.19:14
godbykWe discussed \application and \menu with jimc.19:14
hannieQuestion: if the word Nautilus is used many times, should it always get the tag \applicatio?19:15
hannie*n19:15
godbykTonyP: That used to be true. Now it's still true except for the index bit. (Though that may change soon, too. I'll have to try it and see what we didn't like about it.)19:15
PaddyLandauHere we are: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03085.html19:15
godbykPaddyLandau: Thanks!19:16
godbykSo the message that I wrote in that thread was <https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03093.html>19:16
godbykSomething else we need to decide on is when/how to capitalize dash, launcher, etc.19:17
godbykThe official Ubuntu docs seems to be inconsistent there, so we'll have to decide for ourselves how to handle this issue.19:17
hanniegodbyk, you took the words right out of my mouth ;)19:17
jimcSo...Dash, Launcher are /menu, Nautilus is /application, right?19:18
hannieDash or dash, Launcher or launcher is what I wanted to ask19:18
PaddyLandauI agree that \application is only for what the general user would perceive as a program, and not for the dash or launcher.19:18
jimc...sorry, slashes the other way.19:18
PaddyLandauI would always use capital letters for Dash and Launcher, as they are specific names for specific items quite unique to Ubuntu.19:18
jimcI agree with PaddyLandau19:18
TonyPMe too19:18
godbykjimc: I would use \menu for dash and launcher.19:19
hannie+119:19
PaddyLandauAgreed.19:19
godbykjimc: \menu is only for pull-down menus like File, Edit, View.19:19
godbykjimc: And menu items like Open..., Save, Print..., Copy, etc.19:19
godbykjimc: You can also use \menu for menu items under the indicator menus.19:19
c7pi don't have strong opinion here19:20
PaddyLandauIf not \menu for Dash or Launcher, then what?19:20
hanniegodbyk, in the previous discussion I thought it was decided to use \menu{Dash}19:20
godbykPaddyLandau: They don't necessarily need a tag.19:20
PaddyLandauOK19:20
c7pdoesn't emph works ?19:20
PaddyLandauI would use \emph only when introducing the words Dash or Launcher, otherwise it becomes a visual distraction.19:21
godbykc7p: \emph should only be used for \emph{adding emphesis} and not for formatting text (like names of things).19:21
hannieSo, conclusion: no tag for Dash and Launcher?19:21
c7pah ok19:21
PaddyLandauOK19:21
godbykFor now, I'd say no tag for Dash or Launcher.19:21
godbykNext question: Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?19:21
jimcI'm good with no tags for Dash and Launcher, although it does require us to redit our sections.19:22
hannieok. How do we let those who are not present know?19:22
jimcmailing-list19:22
godbykjimc: I can fix those pretty quickly. It's not a big deal.19:22
godbykI'll add it to the style guide and we can send a message to the mailing list as well.19:22
hannieproblem with m/list is that it comes and goes19:22
jimcgodbyk, ok.19:22
hanniegodbyk, good idea19:23
PaddyLandaugodbyk: "Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?" I am of the opinion that these are proper names, because they are specific items unique to Ubuntu.19:23
godbykhannie: That's what the new Word List chapter is for in the style guide. To track these little details. :)19:23
jimchannie, then do the mailing list, edit the style guide19:23
hannieI am totally happy with that solution ;)19:23
jimcI agree with PaddyLandau, it should be Dash and Launcher19:24
carsten+119:24
TonyP+119:24
hanniegodbyk, I think we have said enough about editing19:24
godbykSounds good.  I'll add the capitalization note to the style guide, too, then.19:24
hannieplease do19:25
godbykAs you're editing, if you encounter inconsistencies or have questions about how to format something, please email me and I'll help you out.19:25
godbykThat'll also prompt me to add a note about it to the style guide so we can keep track of these things.19:25
godbykAre there any other questions at the moment about style, formatting, etc.?19:26
jimcDo we want to talk briefly about indexing?19:26
godbykIf not, we'll move to the next topic.19:26
godbyk#topic Indexing the manual19:26
hanniejimc, it is an item on the agenda19:27
godbykTonyP: Are you our indexer?19:27
TonyPNo, I just want to know about it19:27
hannieit says: benonsoftware19:27
godbykOur manual's index hasn't been that great in the past and it'd be nice to make it useful.19:27
godbykTonyP: Okay, thanks.19:27
hannieAnd didn't Mario do it the last time?19:28
godbykThe way indexing works in LaTeX is that you add \index macros in the text where you refer to something that should appear in the index.19:28
c7phe did a try at the last minute19:28
godbykThe syntax for the \index macro is a bit complicated when you first discover it.19:28
jimcI completely agree with godbyk.  This is a key area (from the user's perspective) that needs to be addressed.19:28
hanniec7p, do you know who benonsoftware is and if he is doing glossary and index?19:29
godbykSince indexing requires that we edit each of the .tex files in the manual to add \index commands, I generally recommend waiting until the other editors have finished their work.19:29
jimcgodbyk, there are enough examples that if people just tried it a few times, they'd see the results.  That's how I learned.19:29
c7pnope19:29
c7pbut he is on channel !19:29
godbykThis means that the text shouldn't change any more and that the indexer won't cause bzr conflicts.19:29
TonyPI am editing the Ubuntu One section and there are no index entries for it19:29
jimcI've been adding index entries as I've been going along...19:29
hanniec7p grey19:30
jimc...mostly based on the \subsection headings.19:30
godbykI'll contact benonsoftware to see if he's still interested in indexing the manual and work with him on the \index syntax and how to go about indexing.19:30
jimcIt's very easy to do as editors.19:30
c7pgood19:30
godbykIf anyone else is interested in indexing their own sections/chapters, let me know and I'll help you out.19:30
godbykI need to write up some notes on it and add them to the style guide.19:30
PaddyLandaugodbyk: Please do write it up.19:31
jimcI still think there needs to be a point person on indexing and glossary to ensure document consistency.19:31
godbykIndexing isn't too difficult. The biggest problems are: (1) figuring out the \index syntax, and (2) knowing what's good to add to the index and how to phrase it.19:31
godbykjimc: I agree.19:31
godbykPer hannie's spreadsheet, benonsoftware said he'd handle the index and glossary.19:32
godbykSo we'll ping him and see if he's still up for that.19:32
jimcgodbyk, probably one of the last "steps" before publication.19:32
c7panyone here interested in indexing ?19:32
godbykjimc: Definitely.19:32
jimcI will.19:32
jimcWhen is the due date for the manual?19:32
PaddyLandau15th.19:33
jimcthe FINAL version19:33
godbykjimc: 30 June is when we'll release the final PDF and printed editions.19:33
hannieJune 3019:33
jimcMy opinion only, the indexing and glossary work should be done at a time when the manual is "frozen"19:34
kereltisjimc, good point19:35
TonyPCan I suggest...19:35
hanniegodbyk, I think we could be a week earlier since there should not be a week between end of editing and crocodoc19:35
godbykhannie: True. We'll see how it goes.19:35
jimccrocodoc?19:35
godbykjimc: crocodoc is a website that allows online annotation of PDFs.19:35
godbykjimc: It's handy for having lots of people proofread your PDF.19:36
TonyPAnyone can put in \index entries subject to so overall edit/review19:36
jimcgodbyk, ahh, ok.  Newbie here, remember!19:36
godbykjimc: See <ubuntu-manual.org/proofread/gswu1110/en> for example.19:36
hannieI thought it very handy in the previous version (crocodoc)19:36
godbykjimc: No problem!19:36
godbykTonyP: Yes, I think that's fine. As long as people don't get *too* carried away with it. :)19:37
godbykI sneaked in an agenda item:19:37
jimcSorry to be anal about this, but users will more likely than not use the index to find how to do something...and will be less likely to read the manual cover to cover.  Therefore, the index (and glossary) is crucial to the success of the user and the utility of our work on this project.19:37
godbyk#topic Screenshot editors19:37
godbykWe've discussed this a bit previously and someone volunteered (I don't recall who). But I think we should have one or two screenshot editors to take/retake all the screenshots for the entire manual.19:38
TonyPjimc: I agree19:38
godbykThis will help ensure consistency.19:38
c7pme too19:38
hanniejimc, I agree on the need for a very good index19:38
godbykjimc: I agree completely. That's why I'd like to see the index improved greatly.19:38
jimcI agree with the "screenshot" team19:38
jimcgodbyk, count me in....however I can help, I will.19:39
kereltisagree with the "screenshot" team19:39
c7p+119:39
hanniegodbyk, I want to do screenshot editing as well19:39
godbykOkay.19:40
hannieah, 2 is enough: c7p and kereltis19:40
c7pmany of the screenshots have to be recaptured19:40
godbykExcellent.19:40
godbykCan you two coordinate between yourselves and retake all of the screenshots for the manual?19:40
c7pi see that some of them have a red login button, others have been captured with a large resolutons etc19:40
godbykThere are some screenshots that are still missing, too.19:40
c7pthat too19:41
godbykc7p: Right. We need to make sure that all the screenshots are taken at the same resolution.19:41
jimc...another Style Guide entry:  Screnshot resolution!19:41
c7pthere are also some great screenshots, so i guess they dont have to retake all the screenshots19:41
jimcWhat defines great?19:41
PaddyLandauAlso sizes of screen-shots; there would need to be a maximum size to fit in a readable way.19:42
godbykWith the default desktop and settings. Preferably with the same username, even.19:42
c7pcaptured according to instructions + good looking on the pdf19:42
godbykc7p: Possibly. Though it's probably best to retake them anyway just in case.19:42
c7pok19:42
jimcc7p, the first one requirement is subjective, the 2nd is objective19:42
hanniegodbyk, can you put my screenshot instructions in the style guide too?19:42
c7pbut in any case start from the problematic screenshots19:42
godbykhannie: Yep!19:42
hanniethanks19:43
c7pjimc: nope, 2nd isn't objective, i mean how clear a screenshot is19:43
jimcc7p, I ask only to help the team determine what needs to be redone and what is acceptable...retaking ALL the screenshots seems to be a LOT of work.19:43
carstenJust for interest: What is with this quickshot program?19:43
c7pi agree with you19:43
godbykcarsten: It's dead in the water at the moment.19:43
godbykcarsten: We don't have anyone developing it.19:44
carstenI thought it was desinged for this purpose?19:44
carstenah ok19:44
c7pguys i g2g19:44
c7pi'll check the logs later19:44
hanniecya c7p19:44
carstenbye c7p19:44
PaddyLandauGoodbye19:44
godbykOkay, see you later, c7p!19:44
TonyPbye c7p19:44
kereltiscya c7p19:44
godbykI think that settles the screenshot editors topic, then.19:45
godbyk#topic Any other questions or business?19:45
godbykDoes anyone have any other questions or issues to raise?19:45
hannieI have no questions19:45
PaddyLandauNot from me.19:45
kereltisnot from me19:45
jimcLots to digest, but I think I'm good (if not, you'll see me in the mailing-list!)19:46
godbykOkay, sounds good guys.19:46
godbykKeep up the great work!19:46
carstenOne19:46
TonyPOK with me19:46
jimcWould it be good to quickly revie w the upcoming due dates>19:46
godbykIf you have any questions during the week, feel free to ping us here in the IRC channel or on the mailing list.19:46
carstenWhen starts translation the manual?19:46
godbykjimc: Sure.19:46
hannieThanks all for the work you do for our manual19:46
godbykUpcoming milestones:19:46
godbykJune 15 – Editors have edited and proofread content.19:46
godbykJune 22 – Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.19:46
godbykJune 27 – Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.19:46
godbykJune 30 – The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.19:46
godbykcarsten: The translations won't start until after we've published the final PDF.19:47
carstenok19:47
godbykcarsten: We have to wait until all the .tex files are finalized before we can upload the translation template file.19:47
jimcWhen should final indexing/glossary begin/end?19:47
godbykhannie: We may use that June 15–22 week to update the screenshots, index, and glossary. We'll have to see how things go.19:48
jimcOK19:48
hanniegodbyk, again a good idea19:48
PaddyLandauI have to go now. Have a good night or day wherever you are in the world :)19:49
godbykG'night, PaddyLandau.19:49
hanniethanks for coming PaddyLandau see you19:49
kereltiscya PaddyLandau19:49
carstenbye Paddy19:49
godbykIf there are no other questions or issues, I'll wrap this up.19:49
jimcCheers, PaddyLandau19:49
godbyk#endmeeting19:49
meetingologyMeeting ended Sat Jun  9 19:49:34 2012 UTC.19:49
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-06-09-18.04.moin.txt19:49
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-06-09-18.04.html19:49
hanniegodbyk, thank you for being chair19:49
godbykI'm often on IRC, so feel free to ping me if you have questions.19:49
godbykThe mailing list also works well.19:50
godbykhannie: np19:50
hannieHave a good weekend all of you19:50
godbykI'll write up the meeting minutes and send them to the mailing list later today or tomorrow.19:50
kereltisThanks for coming everyone and for the hard work! I'll be in the mailing list, have a great weekend all!19:50
godbykI'll also update the style guide this weekend.19:50
carstenthanks, same to you19:50
TonyPbye all19:50
jimcThanks everyone!  Looking forward to the final product!19:51
carstenbye all19:51
godbykGoodbye, carsten.19:52
godbykI'm going to head out, too. I'll be back in a few hours.19:54

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