[10:20] <astraljava> len-dt: ailo: I'm planning on doing the xfce4 changes tonight if Scott hasn't appeared and done them by... 1700 UTC or so.
[10:21] <ailo> astraljava: Ah, great
[11:26] <ailo> I finished another page for the web site feature tour https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/video/
[11:27] <ailo> As video and graphics are not my thing, I might miss things
[11:28] <ailo> ah, I should redo the video page
[11:28] <ailo> Put the graphics related stuff for blender to the graphics page..
[11:51] <ailo> Ok, gotta go. Will try to finish up the feature tour later today. After that, I'd say the web site is more or less ready for publishing. Hopefully during next week then
[14:02] <len-dt> astraljava, +1
[16:41] <ScottL> anybody want to have a quick meeting? i'll be around off and on for the rest of the day
[16:43] <ailo> I'll be in for a few hours more
[16:44] <ailo> ScottL: You know much about the ubuntustudio-font-meta?
[16:44] <ailo> Should we look into if it's up to date or not?
[16:45] <ailo> ScottL: I'm working on the feature tour part for the web site, but I'm not fully pleased with a lot of it.
[16:46] <ailo> I'm thinking if we it's ok to be published we can pimp it up later though
[16:47] <ailo> ScottL: Also, I don't know much about Blender video editing capabilities
[16:47] <ailo> I suppose it is all done using Video Sequence Editor?
[16:50] <ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure about it at all really
[16:51] <ScottL> i think cjwatson (possibly others as well) have updated it when it broke due to someone removing a font
[16:51] <ScottL> ailo, agreed on the website
[16:51] <len-dt> ScottL, my question for the day is what is the normal video work flow? Record video in camera and then transfer to harddrive for editing or record video direct to disk?
[16:52] <ScottL> ailo, and use the VSE (as you said) for editing video in blender
[16:53] <ScottL> ailo, here are two good tutorial, if not pretty, for blender video
[16:53] <ScottL> http://slackermedia.info/videoBlender/
[16:53] <ScottL> http://slackermedia.info/videoBlender/export.html
[16:53] <ScottL> it's for an older version but the work flow is the same
[16:53] <ScottL> mainly...i think
[16:53] <ScottL> len-dt, great question
[16:53] <ScottL> len-dt, and what you described is basically it
[16:54] <len-dt> ScottL, you seem to be the only one who has actually done video...
[16:54] <ScottL> len-dt, here is pretty good tutorial for the basic work flow
[16:54] <ScottL> http://monochrome.sutic.nu/2010/06/14/video-editing-with-blender.html
[16:54] <ScottL> len-dt, hehe, just a little, but i'm working on more stuff
[16:55] <ScottL> i even made a video, kinda of a teaser ad, with just inkscape and kdenlive
[16:55] <ScottL> ..
[16:55] <ScottL> by the way, i'm really liking kdenlive....a lot
[16:55] <ScottL> after i complete a few other things i'm working on i would like to test it against openshot and blender again
[16:56] <len-dt> Ok, I'm going to have to run, I'll look later when I get back. I may ask more questions then.
[16:56] <ScottL> kdenlive has come a long way recently and it does compositing very nicely
[16:56] <ScottL> len-dt, sure, i should be on irc more now that i have this computer set up
[16:56] <ScottL> although kdenlive still can't do some things that blender can, but that is really high end stuff for really fancy animations and such
[16:56] <ScottL> but again, kdenlive has really cut the distance between the two
[16:57] <ailo> ScottL: Thanks. That'll give me some material for the feature tour
[16:57]  * ScottL is away for a bit
[16:57] <len-dt> Ok, I'm going to have to run, I'll look later when I get back. I may ask more questions then.
[16:57] <ScottL> ailo, do you have that stuff where i can read it? maybe i can help fill in the gaps and add some stuff
[16:57] <ailo> ScottL: I've been editing the staging site directly, so it's all there
[17:00] <ailo> ScottL: So far I've unpublished pages and menu items to decrease the workload, and just kept the essential stuff. Download page is similar to the one in the community wiki. Now I'm just polisihing and adding
[17:00] <ailo> I mean, adding to already existing pages
[17:01] <ailo> Well, only the feature tour to be exact
[17:04] <ailo> It would be great to have much more colorful pics showcasing the applications, so, free license type of pics are needed. I've been creating my own, and they tend to be really basic
[17:23] <ailo> ScottL: I don't know. It doesn't seem to me Blender is the best program to edit videos. Sure that Openshot doesn't have all its' features?
[17:23] <astraljava> ScottL! LTNC! :)
[17:30] <ailo> kdenlive does look like a good video editor at a first look
[17:43] <ailo> But I guess OpenShot works well enough to make home videos
[17:45] <ailo> Only OpenShot doesn't seem all that stable :P
[18:04] <ScottL> ailo, i don't recommend blender as a "home movie editor", it's when you want to do near professional or professional stuff
[18:04] <ScottL> blender offers things for post production that others don't
[18:05] <ScottL> it also offers things that others do offer, but in ways that other's don't, which sometimes makes it easier, and sometimes not :P
[18:05] <ScottL> astraljava, hi!
[18:05] <ScottL> ailo, the funny thing between openshot and kdenlive is that it seems 1/2 people say that kdenlive crashes on startup, the other 1/2 say openshot does
[18:06] <ScottL> well, okay, not really 50-50, but many, many people do say the same thing about both of them and it doesn't seem to be the same people have trouble on both
[18:06] <ScottL> but i've not done a study by any means
[18:06] <ScottL> just from forum threads it seems like if someone has trouble with one then they try the other and no more complaints
[18:08] <ScottL> oh, ailo, if "make home videos" = just trim film and place it in order, then almost any application can do that, including pitivi
[18:08]  * ScottL is away again
[18:19] <ailo> ScottL: Ok, so Blender offers post processing which is hard to get by with other editors?
[18:21] <ailo> After working with Blender a bit, I just find it's not something you do unless you really need to. The Blender interface takes some time getting comfortable with
[18:21] <ailo> I mean, for video editing
[18:27] <astraljava> ScottL: How're you doing?
[18:27] <knome> ScottL, o hai.
[18:31] <astraljava> ScottL: Are you still going to do the xfce4 deprecated packages changes to our seeds?
[20:12] <ailo> ScottL: I finished the feature tour https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/
[20:24] <ailo> Sorry for all the revisions on the pages btw. I really need to do more previewing
[20:25] <ailo> ScottL: I removed the first two front tabs on the Home page, just like I merged the two first pages in the feature tour. Polished the writing a bit on the first front tab. Right now, I can't think of anything else to change, so please review the entire site.
[20:26] <ailo> And everyone else are of course welcome to have opinions and suggest addititions/changes or point out mistakes
[20:27] <astraljava> ailo: Thanks, I'll try to have a go-through one of these upcoming evenings.
[20:27] <astraljava> ScottL: I'm going to hit the hay now. Let me know if you don't have time to do the required seeds changes, we need to get the .iso built.
[20:33] <len-dt> ScottL, having read that page (video editing, video file transferred from camera after creation) It would seem the major thing to worry about is making sure the camera looks like a storage device to linux. Generally not a problem.
[20:35] <len-dt> I think I can make some video to import (might be plenty boring) and try some editing/playing and see of there are any system tweaks that would help. The use of audio might be more important... or my system may just not be able to handle it anyway ;-)
[20:37] <len-dt> ScottL, in the clips you have done it looks like you have recorded the audio separately. Is that so? How do you resynchronize things? Are there sync issues over time?
[20:56] <len-dt> ScottL, anything I have found on recording live video in, seem to be about recording video that is saved in a format that doesn't allow direct file transfer like video tape. So the workflow is basically the same anyway. Or for recording a webcam or a camera that acts like one.
[20:58] <len-dt> ScottL, I have come across PCI (or PCIe) cards that can input 4 to 16 video channels at a time. I don't know:
[20:59] <len-dt> If there is driver support in Linux
[20:59] <ScottL> ailo, yes, it is difficult to work with, the latest versions (2.59 or 2.6 i think?) have improved it quite a bit, but the 2.49 was defintely horrible
[21:00] <len-dt> If there is software that can deal with it by recording them all at the same time to disk or live switching to one video out.
[21:00] <ScottL> ailo, but i still think blender suffers from that linux problem...too many options and choices
[21:00] <ScottL> astraljava, if you want to do it or have time then certainly go ahead, otherwise i wanted to try to get to it tonight
[21:00] <ScottL> astraljava, i might not have time tonight as me and wife are going to see prometheus this afternoon/evening
[21:01] <ScottL> but i hope to
[21:02] <ScottL> ailo, i haven't looked at the tour pages, but my thought was that it would follow similarly as the installation slide show, well, categorically i meant
[21:02] <ailo> ScottL: I put graphics ahead of video, since video isn't as strong
[21:02] <ailo> Otherwise the order is the same as before
[21:03] <ailo> I need to see what the installation slide looks like
[21:03]  * ScottL is working through the backscroll and answering in chronological order ;)
[21:04] <ScottL> len-dt, what i have done is used my phone (yes, my phone!) to record 1080HD but used a separate computer with jack/ardour and my nice mic to get the audio
[21:05] <ScottL> i don't demux the phone video (i.e. separate them into different files), i just mute the audio for the video in the editor
[21:05] <ScottL> then i import the new audio in, however i will use the existing audio to help align the new audio
[21:06] <ScottL> either visually (i.e. the waves) or by unmuting and listening, most times i use the visual method first then verify with the second
[21:07] <ScottL> len-dt, so i suppose my larger point is that i've been using device (either my phone or t2i camera) that act as "mass storage devices"
[21:08] <ScottL> i can easily plug them in and copy the file to the computer, although i also prefer the phone for most things because it is an mp4 format rather than the goofy apple format from my camera when it shoots video
[21:08] <ScottL> that said, i know that a friendly codec is only an avcon (the 'new' ffmpeg) away
[21:10] <ScottL> and when i start doing more serious work than podcasts or such i expect that i will follow a more rigid work flow and use the camera because the codec is uses is supposedly better for quality
[21:11] <ScottL> then i'll use avconv (i spelled it wrong earlier) into image sequences and go from there
[21:11] <ScottL> but i don't know anything about pci cards with multiple inputs, that seems a bit strange unless you are using the computer as a video desk for live broadcast stuff (i guess)
[21:13] <ScottL> ailo, i wasn't really worried about the order of the feature tour as much as the parsing and level of what was presented, to be honest
[21:14] <ScottL> i was hoping the slideshow at the website home page would mention the five or six different categories we address using two or three sentences (this is just guidelines stuff, mind you)
[21:14] <ScottL> let's see...
[21:14] <ScottL> 1. audio
[21:14] <ScottL> 2. video
[21:14] <ScottL> 3. graphics
[21:14] <ScottL> 4. photography
[21:14] <ScottL> 5. e-books ?
[21:14] <ScottL> hmmmm
[21:14] <ScottL> i guess four or five topics then ;)
[21:14] <ailo> ScottL: Yeah, it works like that. Only, the order is different
[21:14] <ailo> e-books?
[21:15] <ScottL> and then the tour part would have a dedicated page for each of those topics to explain it in a slightly greater depth
[21:15] <ailo> Perhaps add that to the next release blueprint
[21:15] <len-dt> ScottL, so I would mostly be interested editing and presentation for video. I only mention live switching work for broadcast/recording live events because I happen to come from a broadcast background and my daily work was maintaining that stuff.
[21:15] <ScottL> ailo, yeah, it was something i was exploring and it's already in one of the current blueprints, dont' remember which one
[21:16] <ScottL> ailo, by the way, i made an ebook friday night while watching the movie 'john carter' with the family
[21:16] <ScottL> ailo, i haven't pushed it to the android market or anythign yet, because it's kinda crap writing, graphics, and formatted kidna stupid, but i wrote it, made the graphics in inkscape, formatted it, and converted to EPUB during the movie :)
[21:17] <ScottL> len-dt, oh, that's super cool! i didn't realize you had a background in that stuff
[21:17] <ScottL> hold on a minute, while i find something...
[21:19] <ScottL> len-dt, i learned a bit from listening to the twit stuff:  http://wiki.twit.tv/wiki/TWiT_Brick_House_Equipment
[21:19] <len-dt> ScottL, I got into broadcasting because of music... then found there were no jobs in audio but a few more in TV. Then I got into industrial electronics
[21:19] <ScottL> they use the tricaster 850 extreme
[21:19] <len-dt> I'll look, thanks
[21:19] <ScottL> and they use something like 20 or thirty cameras: Canon VIXIA HF G10 Full HD Camcorder
[21:20] <ScottL> and one person behind the board, it's kinda crazy
[21:20] <ScottL> i was thinking today also that i bet a linux box could even control homemade lights, say for a movie or such
[21:21] <ScottL> or a concert i suppose and i think i remember reading about something for concert lighting before now that i think about audio more
[21:21] <ScottL> oh, len-dt, sorry, the twit stuff really isn't going to help you with the pci card or anything, i was just mentioning it because it was what i thought about when you mentioned the card
[21:22] <ScottL> ailo, i hope to flesh more of the video stuff out in several senses soon...
[21:22] <ScottL> one main goal would be to get documentation and howto's worked up
[21:22] <ScottL> even some video tutorial perhaps on select topics
[21:23] <ScottL> i have even considered researching the whole movie thing, seeing what is available for budgeting, screenplay writing, etc
[21:23] <ScottL> although this would be time consuming because basically i expect that i would have to write a movie and then make it!
[21:24] <ScottL> in order to really understand the process, find the best solution(s), and then document it
[21:24] <ScottL> but i also think that showing it could be done and done fairly well with only a modicum of talent (that would be me with my vast movie making experience)
[21:24] <ailo> ScottL: I think the main problem is that there's no great application available right now
[21:25] <ScottL> btw, that was a joke about "vast movie making expereince" because i dont' have any really
[21:25] <ailo> I mean, sure, you can probably do everything with the tools at hand, but not in any easy way
[21:25] <ScottL> ailo, application for which part?
[21:26] <ailo> ScottL: Something like this http://www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=182
[21:26] <ailo> They are planning a Linux release, but who knows when..
[21:27] <ScottL> btw, klaatu works in the film industry and has a great podcast about how it works
[21:28] <ScottL> http://gnuworldorder.info/ look for December 11, 2011: Episode 7x05
[21:28] <ScottL> i am loading the page ailo, but i worry that people think that without final cut pro that movies can't be made, and that is obviously false
[21:29] <ScottL> i'll explain in a minute after i read the web page
[21:30] <ScottL> okay, this is like what i expected
[21:30] <ScottL> i know that blender can do most of what that page said
[21:30] <ScottL> kdenlive as well for most of it
[21:30] <ScottL> trimming video isn't hard on practically any platform
[21:31] <ScottL> blender has handled most formats (or codecs) for years
[21:32] <ScottL> although i admit most linux applications have had their hands tied because most in linux don't care for proprietary formats, but it's a necessary evil in my opinion
[21:32] <ScottL> but maybe google can help sway that with .webm, that's the format i'm going to push myself
[21:33] <ScottL> timeline is handled well enough by both blender and kdenlive i believe
[21:33] <ScottL> i admit that i don't know anything about multicam sync or stereoscopic stuff
[21:34] <ScottL> some of that is like how some people look at audio with a spectrometer or spectrograph to see if "all" frequencies are equally represented
[21:34] <ScottL> yeah, i know people do it, and it probably helps the music, but i'm not at that level, ya know? :P
[21:34] <ScottL> maybe blender does some of that, maybe not...kdenlive too for that matter
[21:35] <ailo> If you don't need to make pro movide, probably OpenShot is enough
[21:35] <ScottL> ailo, agreed, i think the linux outlaws podcast uses openshot
[21:36] <ScottL> 'project sharing' is like what novacut is trying to do
[21:36] <ScottL> store you media in the web, people can use the same media and make their own edits, then you can actually watch each other make changes in real time
[21:37] <ScottL> this type of stuff _could_ revolutionize the industry but probably won't because people have their ways of doing it and others (read: non-technical, big wigs who light cigars with $100 bills) who still want their work flow maintained
[21:38] <ScottL> i.e. you make the rough cut film and show it to me in my private movie studio and then i tell you what to change
[21:38] <ScottL> i'm serious about that last part, it's not hyperbole, i've not witnessed it but i've heard basically the same account from multiple sources
[21:39] <ailo> I can only speak from my own experience. I have done a good share of audio recording/mixing and even with apps like Ardour, it's not all that confortable all of the time. What I look for is something powerful, and time efficient. Something that lets me focus on the music, and not the applications.
[21:39] <ailo> I'd believe the same goes for all categories of multimedia
[21:39] <ailo> You want great applications
[21:40] <ScottL> and both kdenlive and blender have effects, i'm not sure what qualifies as "real-time" effects
[21:40] <ScottL> ailo, i agree with your statements and i share them
[21:40] <ScottL> and i think this is where blender falls down completely
[21:40] <ScottL> final cut makes it stupidly simple to color grade compared to blender
[21:40] <ailo> Blender is probably fantastic, once you learn to use it. And I would want to, if I was making 3D art
[21:41] <ailo> If I was really into video, and determined to use Linux, and Blender was the *only* application that let me do certain things, I'd use it
[21:42] <ScottL> ailo, this is why i'm really digging kdenlive now, it has most of the power of blender but makes it very, very much easier to use :P
[21:42]  * ScottL is away for a bit
[21:45] <ailo> kdenlive does seem like a good pro, or at least semi-pro application. I can't tell, other than it seems to have a lot more than OpenShot, which is fine for simple editing. kdenlive comes with additional 100-150MB? I think it's worth it, since the video area is as poor as it is, and there aren't all that many alternatives to pick from
[21:46] <ailo> I don't think we need to document how to use all these applications. Would be better to find ready documentation on those things, and add links
[21:46] <ailo> Otherwise, it's like Noahs Arc. Only, it might never get finished
[21:47] <ailo> We only need to applications, and the information. We don't need to create it, only assemble it into easy read documentation
[21:49] <ailo> Well, I've said all of that before. That's what I always try to aim for anyway
[21:49] <ailo> I'll be away until tomorrow
[21:51] <len-dt> ailo, we should only have to provide docs on how to put the apps together.
[22:47] <len-dt> ScottL, when I was working in TV (1980 to 1984) one camera was about $160k. We had two studios with three each and a portable that could be used in either. So 4 cams even for a pretty complex setup like a live music video. Often a news cast was done with two. However, there were also available at the switcher at least two (normally more) tape machines (2 inch and 1 inch) and telecine. Probably minimum 10.
[22:49] <len-dt> Audio (in the studios, on air was audio follows video) was done live by a sound man with completely separate routing from video. So for audio and video to match up took two people.
[22:52] <len-dt> All of our audio and video was analogue. I think we had one digital frame store to sync incoming video from satellite for whatever. All of our internal video was syncs from a master clock with delay loops to match them up at the switcher. Some of these delay loops were just large coils of video cable.
[22:53] <len-dt> Digital has changed a lot.
[22:54] <len-dt> Mind you the place I was had old stuff even then. The ampex 1100 tape machines had germanium transistors...