[00:02] <stilia-johny> hi
[00:05]  * stilia-johny i have a LAN of 5 PC via ethernet and i have wifi router as well! i want to setup my computer as a server and when one of the pc or the wireles connected pc want to go in a site as google to go normaly and when it want to go to www.site.co.uk to go in my ip.. i dont want to do it from the host file i want to do it with a dns HOW
[00:06] <stilia-johny> ?
[00:13] <dogmatic69> bind9
[00:13] <dogmatic69> setup the router to use the 'server' ip as a DNS
[00:15] <dogmatic69> I have a server set up like that, the dns handles *.dev for webdev and the rest is forwarded to google dns
[00:15] <dogmatic69> stilia-johny: ^
[00:56] <dogmatic69> widows vista 'system idle process' using 85% cpu...
[06:24] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:01] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:44] <DJones> zzzzz, yawn, morning, thud..head hits desk
[07:45] <jussi> DJones: sounds about right
[07:45] <DJones> Definately
[07:48] <DJones> Lack of sleep and painkillers suggest today will not be a productive day
[07:53]  * jussi gets the electric prod out... move! :P
[07:54] <DJones> I can't feel it, just produces a numbing tingling
[07:54]  * TheOpenSourcerer was up at 5:00am - son has gone off on a sailing trip with his school to the IoW.
[07:56] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: Sounds a fun trip
[08:14] <daubers> Morning
[08:17] <hoover> good morning all
[08:31] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :)
[08:33] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:36] <hoover> morning biggie
[08:50] <bigcalm> Ug, so much nicer to use a gui irc client
[08:51] <oimon> nice of my hayfever to be going crazy in this torrential rain
[08:53] <andylockran> morning all
[08:53] <hoover> oimon: you need to pick up birdwatching ;-)
[09:01] <oimon> hoover, my sneezes would scare aware the birds
[09:02] <oimon> i'm amazed the bug hasn't been fixed where you can't shut down your machine if another user is logged into a session
[09:02] <DJones> oimon: I could have done with you yesterday morning, two blue tits flying round my conservatory
[09:03] <hoover> hehe
[09:03] <hoover> A friend of mine was "cured" of his hayfever by getting really passionate about birdwatching... very cool
[09:03] <hoover> had to take strong suppressants for the last decade or so, now it's all well
[09:04] <oimon> i don't understand ?
[09:05] <oimon> he took super strong drugs to make his hayfever go away?
[09:05] <oimon> what drugs are these?
[09:05] <DJones> Never had hayfever, but a cure for loud sneezes in our house involved a dog running from the other end of house and jumping on whoever sneezes, landing with all four paws right in your lap
[09:05] <DJones> Not found a cure for the eyes watering after that happens though
[09:05] <oimon> my nose runs like a tap between 7-10
[09:05] <oimon> and awake at 4.30 with sinuses on fire
[09:16] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:19] <oimon> hello bro
[09:20] <brobostigon> hello oimon
[09:22] <DJones> This is a nice idea http://www.pcworld.com/article/257237/clambook_turns_the_laptop_into_a_smartphonepowered_peripheral_cats_herd_sheep.html seems like an ideal accessory to run Ubuntu for Phone with
[09:26] <hoover> Damn
[09:27] <hoover> oimon: no idea, I didn't ask for details on the drugs
[09:27] <hoover> morning brobostigon
[09:27] <brobostigon> morning hoover
[09:30] <oimon> hmm mintbox PC looks a bit like acer revo ..but more $$
[09:33] <popey> oimon: 10% markup for mint too
[09:33] <popey> dont think they thought that through
[09:33] <oimon> popey, cool tax?
[09:34] <popey> given the most expensive one is 388 quid + VAT
[09:35] <diplo> Morning all
[09:35] <diplo> Anyone else seeing increasing amounts of spam since linkedin/eharmony thing ?
[09:35] <popey> nope
[09:35] <diplo> I used to get 3-4 a day for since I've had my gmail account
[09:35] <diplo> Since linkedin + 1-2 days I've got 100+ a day
[09:35] <bigcalm> popey: glad you're awake. What should I install on my iPad?
[09:36] <diplo> So guess I was on the leaked list :(
[09:38] <oimon> must block paris hilton on g+
[09:39] <DJones> bigcalm: What made you decide to get an iPad
[09:39] <bigcalm> DJones: app testing
[09:39] <DJones> Ah
[09:39] <oimon> how can i block a user who isn't in my circles?
[09:39] <DJones> I wondered whether you'd got fed up waiting for ICS
[09:40] <bigcalm> DJones: I've never felt so dispassionate about having a new tech toy
[09:40] <DJones> Heh
[09:41] <DJones> bigcalm: My wifes been driving me nuts all weekend looking at phones, I wouldn't mind, her contract isn't due up until about october
[09:41] <bigcalm> :|
[09:42] <DJones> She wants a Blackberry thats running Android :)
[09:42] <popey> bigcalm: lastpass, skype, sipgate, where's the water, minecraft PE, cut the rope, draw something, mx mayhem, aqueduct 101, spotify, garage band, tune in radio, iplayer, ted itv player, 40d catchup OPlayer HD, google earth, issh, rightmove, bbc news, kindle, blue block, trainyard, find iphone, dropbox, u1 files, ...
[09:43] <bigcalm> popey: good selection. I'll throw some of those on there
[09:44] <popey> bigcalm: profanisaurus, windfinder, wattpad, cloud reader, stanza, rl classic, ebay, amazon,
[09:44] <oimon> kindle?
[09:45] <oimon> yep it's there
[09:45]  * oimon wonders if 40d catchup is on android too
[09:45] <oimon> there's also a cinemagr.am app
[09:45] <popey> yes, i dont use my kindle now i have a kindle ipad app
[09:46] <oimon> my tablet cost the same as a kindle
[09:46] <diplo> I was told they weren't as nice to read on, you find it ok ?
[09:46] <oimon> i like reading in bed with the kindle on tablet
[09:47] <oimon> i.e. lights out
[09:47]  * popey shrugs
[09:47] <oimon> you get used to it, and it's only when you see a kindle that you remember that kindle display is better
[09:47] <oimon> (a bit like HD TV)
[09:47] <czajkowski> anyone have any recommendations for a tablet, counsin is lookign to buy one and she's only 15 and wants it for throwing into her bag and doing homework, anyone have any they prefer over others.
[09:47] <diplo> Only had my kindle a couple of weeks, read a couple of books already
[09:47] <oimon> i have a CRT telly that looks fine to me
[09:47] <diplo> Quite liking it
[09:48] <popey> czajkowski: ipad
[09:48] <popey> czajkowski: all other tablets are rubbish
[09:48] <popey> [FACT]
[09:48] <oimon> troll
[09:48] <oimon> :P
[09:48] <popey> IMHO
[09:48] <popey> running android makes them rubbish ☺
[09:48] <popey> so find a tablet not running android.. that leaves ipad
[09:48] <czajkowski> popey: aye you know thats what I suggested to her and she said she wanted android, so just trying to see whats out there, they are all kinda pricy in euros as well
[09:48] <czajkowski> popey: well there are windows ones also no ?
[09:49] <popey> loldows
[09:49] <czajkowski> well indeed
[09:49] <diplo> czajkowski: There is one one on Ebuyer that's cheapish £170-80 that's getting good reviews and I am debating about
[09:49] <oimon> popey, don't lie your transformer?
[09:49] <diplo> But haven't tried it myself
[09:49] <oimon> ^lie^like
[09:49] <czajkowski> diplo: url?
[09:49]  * diplo is searching already
[09:49] <popey> oimon: android isnt very good on any tablet I've played with
[09:49] <oimon> depends on your needs i guess
[09:50] <oimon> seems to meet my requirements
[09:50] <oimon> except tvcatchup was crashing on my tablet last night grrrr
[09:50] <popey> i have never had tvcatchup crash on my ipad, ergo android is rubbish ☺
[09:50] <popey> when we finally make an ubuntu tablet, I will of course switch ;)
[09:51] <czajkowski> I use mine for reading docs when travelling and irc and Yt but never watched movies on it
[09:51] <diplo> czajkowski: I believe this is it http://www.ebuyer.com/344245-scroll-extreme-tablet-pc-54242
[09:51] <czajkowski> diplo: thanks
[09:51] <oimon> these IBM blades are shockingly bad
[09:51] <czajkowski> am remmbering how cheap UK is over Euro by  a long shot
[09:51] <diplo> If she goes for it keep me in the loop, be interested in a hands on :)
[09:52] <czajkowski> will do
[09:52] <czajkowski> she's getting it as a gift for sitting her Jnr cert
[09:52]  * daubers still has no use for a tablet
[09:53] <oimon> daubers, what do you do on the toilet?
[09:53] <daubers> oimon: Isn't that what a kindles for?
[09:53] <oimon> my 2year old is using my tablet too much
[09:53] <oimon> he completed a hard level of train maze the other day
[09:53] <oimon> he has 5 apps he really likes
[09:54] <diplo> oimon: My youngest (4) keeps trying to touch the laptop screen to get it to scroll :(
[09:54] <oimon> drum kit and piano, memory game, squirrel and train maze
[09:54] <oimon> it's very intuitive interface
[09:54] <popey> https://community.rapid7.com/community/metasploit/blog/2012/06/11/cve-2012-2122-a-tragically-comedic-security-flaw-in-mysql
[09:55] <diplo> They love my brothers IPAD, I just can't find that sort of money, especially when the 5 year old is growing at the pace he is
[09:55] <diplo> :(
[09:55] <DJones> popey: Android on my tablet is excellent, works brilliantly and does everything i want, although price wise it is comparable with Ipads
[09:56] <popey> i dont like the lack of screen responsiveness on android
[09:56] <diplo> Failed on mine popey, going to test it on a few different ones
[09:56] <popey> given my ipad is lower spec than the transformer, yet the transformer can't do screen updates as smoothly as ipad
[09:56] <DJones> popey: In what way? I've not used an iPad, so I haven't got anything to compare with
[09:57] <daubers> was the transformer gingerbread?
[09:57] <DJones> Thats not something I've noticed
[09:57] <DJones> daubers: ICS
[09:57] <popey> its had various versions
[09:57] <popey> its a well known issue with the display rendering on android
[09:57] <diplo> I think this is the benefit for Apple, is they only design there OS for a few devices, makes making improvements so much easier
[09:57] <daubers> Ah, someone in the office has a tablet s which doesn't seem to have the slow screen updates problem
[09:58] <popey> its not just slow screen updates, artifacts on the screen, triangles rendering incorrectly
[09:58] <DJones> Mine is the Prime which is very responsive
[09:58] <daubers> I've found it varies between tablets. Some really suffe, other don't
[09:58] <popey> yeah, the prime is better, but thats got 4 more cores than my ipad ☺
[09:59] <daubers> On the other side of things, I have seen a iPad give the OSX "Reboot now" screen
[09:59] <popey> the what screen?
[09:59] <daubers> When OSX has a kernel panic the screen goes grey telling you to hard reboot
[09:59] <DJones> popey: I had to get the 4 cores, it makes up for my own memory & brain speed :)
[09:59] <czajkowski> DJones: popey I just cant recommend something as priey as 500-600 euros when I know full well she's not going to use it as heavily as you folks would and she'll be needing a laptop next year as well
[09:59] <daubers> Got a Mac Pro downstairs that does it on command when you pull out the 10GbE SFP+
[09:59] <oimon> second hand hp touchpad?
[10:00] <diplo> I'd love a touchpad
[10:00] <oimon> or ipad1
[10:00] <czajkowski> trying to see what I can get in uk and bring it over as that seems to be cheaper than here
[10:00] <popey> czajkowski: they arent that much
[10:00] <popey> 2nd hand or refurb
[10:00] <popey> 1st gen ipad is fine, that's all I have
[10:00] <czajkowski> showing 600 euros over here for the galaxy tablet which she has it in her head as she knows that name
[10:00] <DJones> czajkowski: Agreed, I wouldn't recommend the Prime for somebody who doesn't plan on using it regularly for quite a while
[10:01] <czajkowski> she hadnt heard of asus or HTC so trying to show her
[10:01] <daubers> czajkowski: Had a look at the sony ones? They're a bit cheaper
[10:01] <czajkowski> at the end of the day she's 15 and will be using it mostly in the house where she has wifi
[10:01] <czajkowski> daubers: I wont recommend anyone buy Sony
[10:02] <daubers> czajkowski: Because Sony are genitalia?
[10:02] <davmor2> morning all
[10:02] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod
[10:03] <czajkowski> daubers: cause they are uber pricy and if they break cost a small fortue to repair
[10:03] <czajkowski> davmor2: ello
[10:03] <davmor2> czajkowski: they only cost a small fortune to repair if you take them back to sony
[10:05] <czajkowski> true
[10:07] <popey> czajkowski: have you seen how many 16GB ipad 1's there are on ebay
[10:07] <popey> ~200 quid
[10:07] <daubers> czajkowski: £300 http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/sony-s-tablet-pc-16gb-11318187-pdt.html?srcid=867&cmpid=comp~Google~~11318187&istCompanyId=9a35962d-802d-4e67-9721-0a3328ca1f02&istItemId=itarpmti&istBid=t&gclid=CM-j5pf4xbACFQ8htAodGiioVw
[10:07] <daubers> (can be updated to ICS)
[10:07] <popey> i wouldn't touch a sony tablet either
[10:07] <popey> their customer support is apalling
[10:08] <czajkowski> daubers: ah ok
[10:08] <daubers> heh :) We have one in the office. Hardware seems ok, but sony are a bit nobbish
[10:08] <czajkowski> thats was one thing I didnt know she has heard of ICS so wondered if she bought pre ICS could she update it to that ?
[10:08] <daubers> czajkowski: Some can, some can't
[10:09] <oimon> its just taken me hr and a half to change some settings on some ibm blades remotely :0\
[10:09] <czajkowski> daubers: cheers
[10:11] <daubers> czajkowski: In all honesty, with tablets I'd go into a shop and play with them
[10:11] <daubers> much like PC's, until you've held one and played with it, you won't really know
[10:12] <DJones> I'm waiting for Jelly Bean updates :)
[10:12] <czajkowski> daubers: aye not a great selection in pc world which is whats close to her.
[10:12] <czajkowski> but am trying to get her to not rush into it
[10:12] <daubers> czajkowski: Go into HMV
[10:12] <czajkowski> thanks folks though
[10:12] <czajkowski> daubers: our HMV doesnt stock them :)
[10:12] <daubers> hah! HMV in reading has 2 counters full of tablets
[10:13] <daubers> It's starting to put boots to shame
[10:13] <daubers> DJones: I'm potentially waiting for a) Some scan results and b) the nexus 7" tablet that's rumoured
[10:15] <DJones> daubers: I had a play with a couple of 7" tablets and found they were not quite big enough for any regular use, it was sort of part way between a phone and a tablet, didn't quite do either as well as I'd hoped
[10:15] <daubers> DJones: I might need one more as an electronic diary/todo list than anything else (phone is just a touch too small)
[10:16] <popey> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-02-23/
[10:16] <popey> amusingly that comic strip appeared with an advert for the galaxy note in the bottom right the other day
[10:16] <daubers> popey: It's what I used to use my palm for
[10:17] <daubers> (original palm thing, not the phone :) )
[10:17] <DJones> daubers: I thought you meant you scribbled notes in ink on your palm then
[10:17] <gord> oh wow, dilbert still exists
[10:17] <daubers> DJones: I did that too... but stopped when it started running in the rain
[10:18] <popey> I still have a Palm
[10:18] <daubers> I have a Tungsten T in a box somewhere. But all the syncy software stopped working
[10:18] <diplo> the few people I know who have notes in regards to Dilbert really like them
[10:23] <daubers> Hmm... didn't realise you can get wireless HDMI monitors
[10:27] <popey> over the last couple of weeks we have started to get a lot more spam calls at home
[10:27] <popey> had one from an indian guy about windows viruses and told him to fsck off
[10:28] <popey> still keep getting calls, but they're silent
[10:28] <popey> then hang up
[10:28] <brobostigon> :(
[10:28] <popey> no number "Unavailable, out of area"
[10:28] <brobostigon> had a few here also.
[10:28] <popey> nothing I can do is there?
[10:28] <brobostigon> other than tps, i doubt it.
[10:28] <popey> tps cant do anything about non-UK calling
[10:29] <brobostigon> true, yes.
[10:29] <daubers> popey: Setup something to screen your calls
[10:30] <popey> such as?
[10:30] <daubers> popey: Or keep a log of when you're getting them and speak to BT
[10:30] <daubers> asterisk?
[10:30] <popey> I am not with BT
[10:30] <daubers> VM?
[10:30] <popey> yes
[10:30] <popey> I'm not inclined to install asterisk
[10:30] <daubers> Then speak to VM :)
[10:31] <popey> well yes, I can figure that bit out myself
[10:31] <popey> I was looking for alternative solutions
[10:31] <daubers> When I had a similarish problem, BT asked for a log of times when we were getting called. No guarentee of a solution, but it helps them track the call
[10:31] <brobostigon> i tend to write the number down also. on the basis, i can find a solution, to filter those malicious numbers.
[10:32] <davmor2> popey: 1.50 month to have spam calling cut out iirc that gets rid of a lot of them
[10:32]  * popey tweets vm
[10:32] <davmor2> popey: you'll need to check I know bt do it so vm should have something similar
[10:33] <daubers> popey: BT can also block calls to your phone from withheld numbers
[10:33] <daubers> dunno if VM do the same
[10:33] <popey> no number shows though
[10:34] <popey> would be nice to just say "block calls from outside the UK"
[10:37] <gord> i get enough spam calls on my phone that i installed an app that rejects all calls from unknown numbers. but its android so the app kind of sucks
[10:37] <dwatkins> ali1234: do you (or anyone else) know if the 'blue people' issue with flash/youtube is resolved with the new version, 11.2.202.236?
[10:37] <gord> dwatkins, turning off hardware acceleration fixes that does it not?
[10:38] <daubers> popey: As for the silly end of the scale.... change your number or hire a secretary :)
[10:38] <dwatkins> gord: it does, yeah - not an ideal solution, so I'm hoping it's actually fixed in the latest release
[10:39] <gord> would be nice, anything to make flash a little less terribad
[10:41] <popey> http://www.silentgard.com/
[10:41] <popey> *sigh*
[10:41] <directhex> aspnet fail
[10:42] <daubers> popey: You could get yourself a premium rate number and make some money from them?
[10:44] <dwatkins> I look forward to the day everything uses HTML5.
[10:45] <directhex> dwatkins: that doesn't affect what runs server-side
[10:48] <dwatkins> directhex: server-side in what sense?
[10:49] <directhex> dwatkins: wouldn't help popey!
[10:49] <dwatkins> I meant everything in terms of 'everything which currently uses flash content' ;)
[10:49] <dwatkins> ah I see, I wasn't referring to popey's link
[10:49] <dwatkins> not good that it discloses all that information, either, but that's another issue
[10:56] <daubers> popey: Interesting that it's just the homepage borked
[10:56] <daubers> http://www.ukdatait.co.uk/callblocker/
[10:57] <daubers> http://www.silentgard.com/register.aspx even
[10:58] <jochen1727> hi all
[10:59] <jochen1727> it s strange to post my question here but i do it
[11:00] <jochen1727> i m frenh and im going to go to UK, i m young (25), which city recommand me?
[11:00] <jochen1727> srry for my english :-)
[11:00] <popey> for tourism or work?
[11:01] <jochen1727> for tourism
[11:01] <popey> how long will you be here?
[11:01] <jochen1727> 2 weeks 1 month
[11:01] <popey> oh, plenty of time to visit lots of cities ☺
[11:02] <dwatkins> jochen1727: I reccomend Oxford :)
[11:02] <brobostigon> :)
[11:02] <jochen1727> dwatkins: okay , why?
[11:02] <popey> jochen1727: http://www.nerdydaytrips.com/ might be useful
[11:02] <dwatkins> jochen1727: it's a beautiful city, and there are lots of things to do there
[11:03] <jochen1727> dwatkins: okay
[11:03] <jochen1727> tou recommand me youth hostels?
[11:03] <jochen1727> you recommand me youth hostels
[11:04] <jochen1727> ?
[11:04] <dwatkins> not specific ones, no - I used to live near there
[11:04] <dwatkins> they are generally very good, though
[11:04] <jochen1727> it s not expensive
[11:04]  * dwatkins goes to lunch
[11:04] <dwatkins> have a nice trip :)
[11:04] <czajkowski> popey: oh nice site!!
[11:04] <jochen1727> i heard that
[11:05] <jochen1727> dwatkins: camping?
[11:05] <jochen1727> but camping with rain !!!!!
[11:06] <jochen1727> i am afrfaid!!!!
[11:06] <jochen1727> lool
[11:06] <jochen1727> afraid srry
[11:08] <jochen1727> i want to improve my pook english level
[11:08] <jochen1727> arffff
[11:08] <jochen1727> poor
[11:08] <diplo> Nothing like talking people face to face and typing with people I guess
[11:08] <diplo> talking to*
[11:09] <diplo> The more you do it, the more it will become more natural
[11:09] <jochen1727> which hosting recommand me ???not very expensive if possible????
[11:09] <diplo> My French is rubbish, I can understand it and read it. I Can hardly speak it or write it :/
[11:09] <diplo> Web hosting ?
[11:10] <diplo> I've used GoDaddy for some very cheap hosting with lot's of bandwith/disc space.
[11:10] <diplo> I run a vps now so couldn't be up to date with anything else
[11:11] <jochen1727> ohhh wich accommodation, hosting camp?
[11:11] <jochen1727> not web hosting
[11:11] <jochen1727> it s a mistake
[11:11] <jochen1727> srry
[11:11] <diplo> lol ok, Did wonder why the subject changed.
[11:11] <davmor2> jochen1727: I recommend, York, London and going to the Computer Museum at Bletchley Park
[11:11] <daubers> jochen1727: If you're after youth hostels, have a look at http://www.yha.org.uk/
[11:12] <jochen1727> daubers: thanks
[11:12] <diplo> Camping is great in the UK albeit it can be expensive in places, but with this whether I'd go with Hostels like the others have suggested.
[11:13] <jochen1727> i heard hostel are very expensive?
[11:13] <jochen1727> YHA hostels?
[11:14] <daubers> yha in oxford seems to be suggesting £20odd a night, which is pretty cheap for accomodation
[11:15] <jochen1727> okay
[11:15] <davmor2> jochen1727: Hostel aren't as expensive as hotels,  but it can depend, you are best off having a look at the hostels hotel and campsite to decide which are the best/cheapest on offer
[11:15] <jochen1727> a particulary YHA in oxford?
[11:16] <daubers> jochen1727: Oxford is in the south east on their map
[11:17] <jochen1727> i m afrais too they are many french, thats while i don t going to London
[11:17] <jochen1727> affraid
[11:17] <jochen1727> thy are too french at london
[11:18] <jochen1727> like i want to improve my english
[11:18] <jochen1727> it s not good with frenchs and it very expensive
[11:18] <jochen1727> london
[11:19] <davmor2> jochen1727: On the other hand it does have Loads to see and do, york is the same but again loads to see and do
[11:19] <jochen1727> you re nice to help me
[11:21] <jochen1727> okay for york
[11:22] <jochen1727> i m going to eat
[11:22] <jochen1727> thks all Merci beacoup ^^
[11:22] <jochen1727> beaucoup
[11:22] <davmor2> jochen1727: Oxford is a good bet less to do but lots to see plus bletchley isn't that far away and that is a great day out
[11:28] <ali1234> bug 882274
[12:06] <diplo> Bad day bigcalm :)
[12:06]  * bigcalm grrrrs
[12:06] <diplo> heh
[12:07] <diplo> I'll probably be doing it later
[12:29] <davmor2> bigcalm: on a plus note I got a nice new HD led acer monitor for £99
[12:34] <bigcalm> That's nice
[12:35] <davmor2> bigcalm: I thought so, £179.00 reduced to 110, then 10% off cause it was the last one, ie the showroom model :)
[12:37] <MooDoo> hello davmor2
[12:38] <davmor2> hello MooDoo you sciving wretch, 'Ow am ya?
[12:38] <MooDoo> davmor2: cracking lad, :)
[12:40] <davmor2> MooDoo: everytime I see you type that I picture you saying it in a Wallace stylee voice
[12:50] <MooDoo> davmor2: lol, wednesleydale :)
[12:51] <davmor2> MooDoo: only issue is I always expect cheese gromit to follow it :D
[12:56] <bubu\a> anyone in here with a uk netflix account getting US content?
[13:31] <gord> sure would be nice if file roller just automatically ignored __MAXOSX folders..
[13:45] <bigcalm> Would be nice if .jar files were associated with Java by default :S
[13:45] <bigcalm> Not treat them as archives
[13:46] <gord> can't you set it up to do that?
[13:46] <gord> oh by default, didn't think we installed java by default
[13:47] <bigcalm> Well, when Java does get installed, it would be nice to have .jar files then associated with Java
[13:47] <bigcalm> Without the user having to do anything else
[13:47] <bigcalm> Is Libre Office installed by default?
[13:47] <bigcalm> Doesn't that use Java?
[13:47] <ali1234> no
[13:48] <bigcalm> I think my confusion comes from OpenOffice being a Sun product, as was Java
[13:48] <ali1234> it used to use java
[13:48] <ali1234> now it only needs it for some tiny parts
[13:48] <bigcalm> Oh, so I'm not completely insane
[13:48] <ali1234> java sucks anyway
[13:48] <bigcalm> Of course it does :)
[13:48] <ali1234> you know what else sucks?
[13:49] <ali1234> bzr
[13:49] <bigcalm> PHP?
[13:49] <ali1234> i've decided it's the CVS for people who hate CVS
[13:49] <bigcalm> My dyson?
[13:49] <bigcalm> o.O
[13:49] <ali1234> since it doesn't support bisect or cleaning up history it is basically impossible to use the history it creates for anything at all
[13:50] <ali1234> so it might as well not exist
[13:50] <gord> there is a plugin for bisect
[13:50] <ali1234> seems the only practical use for it is people who have been told they should use a CVS, but don't actually understand why or how
[13:50] <ali1234> gord: yes, and it doesn't work
[13:51] <ali1234> it doesn't work for two reasons, only one of which can be fixed in the code
[13:51] <davmor2> ali1234: write a bug rather than whine about it, it's the only way it is likely to improve
[13:51] <gord> oh well, maybe walls of text on irc will fix it
[13:51] <ali1234> davmor2: the bug was reported 2 years ago
[13:52] <davmor2> ali1234: the history works fine here so maybe you use it differently to me
[13:52] <ali1234> i don't for a second believe that my ranting will fix the problem
[13:52] <davmor2> ali1234: I'm a pretty basic user of bzr to be fair
[13:52] <ali1234> however, it might alert some people to the fact that starting a new project with bzr is an incredibly bad idea
[13:54] <ali1234> davmor2: i'll explain. suppose you find a bug in the latest version of your project. you want to know which revision introduced it. you bisect to find it. that means you picka  revision half way between head and the last known good version, and test it
[13:54] <ali1234> now the problem with bzr is it doesn't allow you to edit history ever, by design
[13:55] <ali1234> which means that if you pick a random revision from history it is extremely unlikely to compile
[13:55] <ali1234> now the problem is that the bzr bisect plugin does not allow you to skip these broken revisions, and it won't even tell you which revision you are currently trying to test
[13:55] <ali1234> which means, the bisect plugin is completely useless!
[13:56] <ali1234> it can't do the one and only thing it is supposed to do
[13:56] <davmor2> ali1234: or you are using bzr differently to the 100's of canonical staff that do this all the time
[13:56] <ali1234> well it's certainly true that i've noticed that canonical finds it extremely difficult to find and fix regression bugs
[13:57] <ali1234> this is almost certainly due to the way the tools work
[13:58] <ali1234> they encourage writing everything over from scratch rather than fixing the existing bugs
[14:04] <AlanBell> why would a random revision from history be unlikely to compile?
[14:04] <ali1234> because if you commit with a typo there's no way to undo it
[14:05] <ali1234> see http://sethrobertson.github.com/GitBestPractices/#sausage
[14:05] <gord> bzr uncommit
[14:07] <ali1234> also, it might compile, but then crash due to an introduced bug that was then fixed in the next commit
[15:50] <DJones> Does Anybody know if there's a way to block any tweets menioning #Euro2012 without not looking at twitter or block users, and if so how?
[15:51] <popey> yeah, i think certain twitter apps can do it
[15:51] <popey> tweetdeck may be able to
[15:51] <DJones> I'm already fed up of it
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> Why? England lost?
[15:51] <DJones> I'll have a look in destroytwitter settings
[15:51] <popey> dunno, i dont care
[15:51] <ali1234> the game hasn't even started yet
[15:52] <ali1234> seriously though, when you're tired of people talking about banal sporting events, b-list celebs, and last nights reality TV shows, you're bored of twitter and should just leave and go on google+ instead
[15:52] <MartijnVdS> Then you get Alans talking about Ubuntu
[15:52] <popey> and get flooded with fab talking about it
[15:53] <gord> you also get me talking about japanese candy and not much else!
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> popey: Put him in an 'ignore' circle ;)
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> or Laney talking about Bristol
[15:53] <popey> he is in a circle called "noisy"
[15:54] <gord> just him and mr noisy?
[15:54] <ali1234> apparently i don't follow any of those people
[15:54]  * AlanBell has a circle called noisy with just fab in it
[15:54] <gord> must make mr men profiles
[15:54] <Laney> :3
[15:54] <Laney> MartijnVdS: I'm back now, so no more Bristol posts :(
[15:54] <Laney> I could share my pictures!
[15:54] <MartijnVdS> Laney: you could
[15:55]  * MartijnVdS posts in Dutch sometimes.. in English other times
[15:55] <MartijnVdS> does G+ offer to translate? (GMail does)
[15:57] <brobostigon> on android, you could just pipe it into translate app.?
[15:58] <MartijnVdS> probably
[15:59] <brobostigon> i think it is called share.
[16:00] <directhex> i just ndon't use g+
[16:00] <directhex> twitter it is. except for baby photos, which go on facebook
[16:03] <MartijnVdS> Oooh, lightnings
[16:19] <popey> AlanBell: same here ☺
[16:21] <davmor2> popey, AlanBell: I just dropped him from my circles in the end I found that if he has anything really good to say everyone else in my circles comments on it or reposts it :)
[16:22] <davmor2> popey, AlanBell: thanks for being my fab filter keep up the good work :)
[16:26] <zlx> Hey, I just brought a new keyboard which doesn't seem to work in Ubuntu. After some googling I believe I've found a patch (in unified format) which should apparently fix the issue. Where's the best place for me to find out how to apply it? Cheers
[16:27] <MartijnVdS> zlx: where did you find the patch?
[16:27] <MartijnVdS> what kind of keyboard is it?
[16:27] <zlx> Trust GXT 18, the patch was in this post on this mailing list ( http://www.digipedia.pl/usenet/thread/19505/19241/#post26557 )
[16:27] <AlanBell> davmor2: glad to be of service
[16:28] <MartijnVdS> zlx: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile -- but be sure to also file a bug so the next version of Ubuntu gets this built in
[16:34] <zlx> @MartijnVdS: is it not just possible for me to patch over the linux-header rather than having to compile the kernel?
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> no
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> because the driver needs to be fixed
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> and that's in a kernel module
[16:41] <zlx> Ah, ok. Thanks for the help, unfortunately I don't have the time to read more on this and have a go myself. Have a good day :)
[16:47] <alcockell> Hi all..
[17:20] <dogmatic69> which is the better option, postfix or send mail?
[17:22] <popey> dogmatic69: i would use exim or postfix
[17:22] <popey> not sendmail
[17:22] <dogmatic69> cool
[17:22] <popey> postfix is nice and easy
[17:23] <dogmatic69> ye, I have used both and know one gave problems, just forgot which one :D
[17:24] <dogmatic69> thanks popey
[17:27] <directhex> sendmail is... a relic, whose reason to exist expired a decade ago, give or take
[17:32] <dogmatic69> he
[17:32] <dogmatic69> I looked at some google posts quick, people were saying in 2006 sendmail sucks
[17:36] <alcockell> I remember borrowing the Bat fromt he library years ago - damn, who was it who published it?
[18:24] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Tony] Unleash your creativity at OggCamp - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/06/11/unleash-your-creativity-at-oggcamp/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=unleash-your-creativity-at-oggcamp
[19:18] <popey> czajkowski: now is a good time to buy an ipad 1 :D
[19:18] <popey> czajkowski: given apple just announced iOS 6 won't be available for that model, so there will be people offloading their iPad 1 to upgrade to a 2 or new one.
[20:22] <marsilainen> hi all, how can I tell if I'm using a hardware accelerated driver?
[20:23] <marsilainen> (for an ATI card)
[20:23] <marsilainen> fglrxinfo says:
[20:23] <marsilainen> display: :0  screen: 0
[20:23] <marsilainen> OpenGL vendor string: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
[20:23] <marsilainen> OpenGL renderer string: ATI Radeon 3000 Graphics
[20:23] <marsilainen> OpenGL version string: 3.3.11627 Compatibility Profile Context
[20:24] <marsilainen> so does that indicate that I'm using an accelerated driver?
[20:24] <marsilainen> and if so, is that definitely the proprietary ATI driver and not something else?
[20:24] <ali1234> fglrx is the proprietary driver
[20:24] <marsilainen> ok
[20:24] <ali1234> also known as catalyst
[20:25] <marsilainen> it doesn't feel smooth when moving between virtual desktops in unity
[20:25] <marsilainen> is that normal?
[20:25] <ali1234> yes
[20:25] <marsilainen> ok
[20:25] <MartijnVdS> it seems to "halt" just before it's done?
[20:25] <ali1234> unity is slow
[20:25] <MartijnVdS> I get that too
[20:25] <marsilainen> think I'm going to switch to gnome-shell
[20:26] <ali1234> anything that doesn't use compiz 0.9 is a valid choice
[20:26] <marsilainen> :)
[20:26] <ali1234> that means anything that isn't unity
[20:26] <marsilainen> yeah, I've been trying gnome-shell on my machine at work and it seems pretty nice
[20:26] <marsilainen> so I'll try that here too
[20:26] <ali1234> i don't care for it's lack of multimonitor workspaces
[20:27] <brobostigon> gnome-shell 3.4.1 is pretty slick, and many early problems, have been fixed.
[20:27] <ali1234> but none of the design problems
[20:27] <brobostigon> i can think of a few, but nothing huge.
[20:28] <MartijnVdS> is it configurable yet?
[20:28] <brobostigon> define?
[20:28] <ali1234> with extensions it is
[20:29] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: with tweak tool, you can configure most basics.
[20:29] <ali1234> you can change fonts and theme
[20:29] <brobostigon> icon theme,
[20:29] <ali1234> you can't move around any ui components without extensions
[20:29] <brobostigon> overall theme, window bar theme.
[20:30] <ali1234> you can configure the window buttons with dconf
[20:30] <brobostigon> ali1234: that is within tweak tool now.
[20:30] <marsilainen> my icons look blurry in gnome-shell for some reason
[20:30] <marsilainen> maybe they are being sized up
[20:31] <marsilainen> anyway, need reboot...
[20:34] <brobostigon> also, i think the only biggie issue now, is sometimes, even in low system load, under 0.5 , alt-tab changes, just delay-lag just abit, insted of being instant.
[20:43] <marsilainen> well gnome-shell is performing a little better than unity
[20:43] <marsilainen> TBH my graphics card may not be the best...
[20:44] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: which gnome-shell version have you got?
[20:44] <brobostigon> not MartijnVdS , sorry.
[20:44] <brobostigon> marsilainen: which gnome-shell version have you got?
[20:45] <marsilainen> brobostigon: 3.4.1
[20:46] <marsilainen> my gfx is only on-board Radeon 3000 on the motherboard
[20:46] <marsilainen> so I suspect it's that more than anything
[20:46] <brobostigon> marsilainen: that should be pretty good, it is much improved in performance. over earlier versions.
[20:46] <marsilainen> sure
[20:46] <brobostigon> i am on my eeepc, so primitive, intel inntegrated. and it works almost perfectly.
[20:47] <marsilainen> sure :/
[20:47] <marsilainen> I mean, it's not bad
[20:47] <marsilainen> just not as smooth as I expected
[20:47] <brobostigon> :)
[20:47] <marsilainen> maybe I expect too much
[20:47] <brobostigon> :(
[20:47] <brobostigon> well, we can never have perfection.
[20:47] <marsilainen> I don't really know what's acceptable...
[20:47] <marsilainen> yeah
[20:48] <marsilainen> I guess I need to see it running on some other people's machines to compare
[20:48] <marsilainen> in any case I'm going to give gnome-shell a try for a while to see how I like it
[20:48] <marsilainen> I like the fact that it creates as many virtual desktops as you use
[20:48] <brobostigon> marsilainen: you will like ow it deals with workspaces, :)
[20:48] <marsilainen> the default 4 in unity is never enough for me!
[20:48] <brobostigon> :)
[20:49] <brobostigon> also i like, how alt-tab seperates by workspace, then app, then windows.
[20:49] <marsilainen> sure
[20:49] <marsilainen> I think I tweaked a compiz setting in unity to do similar
[20:49] <marsilainen> but nice that it works out of the box
[20:50] <brobostigon> agreed, it just feels right.
[20:50] <marsilainen> yeah
[20:50] <marsilainen> the default in unity was a pain
[20:50] <marsilainen> not sure if they changed it in 12.04?
[20:51] <brobostigon> there are similarities, where inside alt-tab, you see thumbnails of the windows.
[20:54] <TheFred> hello
[20:54] <brobostigon> hello TheFred
[20:55] <TheFred> :)
[20:55] <brobostigon> :)
[20:55] <TheFred> im having a problem with xdotool and the HUD...
[20:55] <brobostigon> !info xdotool
[20:56] <TheFred> aha - so it may have issues with unity?
[20:56] <brobostigon> no idea.
[20:56] <TheFred> meh
[20:57] <TheFred> im working on speech input solution, and xdotool just *wont* enter text into the HUD, everything else works fine
[20:57] <brobostigon> i dont know xdotool.
[20:57] <TheFred> give it a play.. its handy for automating routine tasks
[20:58] <brobostigon> ok, i will put it on my list for tmrw.
[20:58] <TheFred> lol
[20:58] <TheFred> what else is on your list?
[20:59] <brobostigon> TheFred: nuffield ortopedic centre, oxford. osteoporosis checkup,
[20:59] <TheFred> ah
[21:01] <TheFred> I think im going t have to live with the HUD problem, and hope users dont get irate
[21:02]  * TheFred curses the day i spilt cffe on keybord
[21:02] <ali1234> you could bypass that problem by using a virtual input device instead of xdotool
[21:03] <TheFred> ali1234, thats a great idea
[21:04] <TheFred> evemu-device seems the way to go
[21:05] <ali1234> no, uinput is the thing you need
[21:06] <TheFred> oh!
[21:07] <ali1234> you can't address specific windows that way though
[21:07] <TheFred> owww
[21:07] <TheFred> just read that to, but thats not an issue really
[21:08] <TheFred> Currently focusing on the currently focused window
[21:08] <ali1234> really the proper way is to do it the way on screen keyboards do it
[21:08] <TheFred> they dont have speech input tho...
[21:08] <TheFred> or am i missing something
[21:08] <ali1234> it doesn't matter, it's the same thing
[21:09] <ali1234> if you use uinput you get a raw keyboard device that you can push events through but it has no concept of windows and focus
[21:09] <TheFred> thats fine for my present needs
[21:09] <ali1234> if you make it the way an on screen keyboard works you can register for events like "user selected input field"
[21:09] <ali1234> then you can use that to switch modes
[21:09] <ali1234> eg between command and text entry mode
[21:10] <ali1234> that's something you'll probably want eventually so going down uinput path may be a pointless diversion
[21:10] <TheFred> thats the distinction, at present i am focusing on speech input only, commands are a later step
[21:10] <ali1234> AlanBell is our expert on on screen keyboards
[21:12] <TheFred> well, at the moment i have an android app that does the heavy lifting of speech recognition, then its sent to the pc socket for xdotool to type out, im sure how an onscreen keyboard will help - im open to all suggestions
[21:12] <TheFred> *im not sure
[21:12] <ali1234> there is no onscreen keyboard
[21:12] <ali1234> you just use the same APIs that they use
[21:13] <TheFred> gotcha
[21:13] <ali1234> you should ask AlanBell if onboard works with the HUD, and how it injects text into the input stream
[21:13] <ali1234> that's what i'd do :)
[21:13] <ali1234> for all i know onboard uses uinput
[21:14] <TheFred> i almost frightened to ask, becuase last time i pinged i got got kicked ...
[21:14] <ali1234> whut
[21:14] <ali1234> nobody ever gets kicked from this channel
[21:14] <ali1234> except that guy who did something once ages ago and is now kick-on-sight
[21:15] <TheFred> I made a clumsy mistake and pasted user names into chat and it pinged everyone - call it a part of learning what i cant do with desktop automation...
[21:15] <TheFred> AlanBell, can you answer some questions i have about screen keyboards?
[21:16]  * TheFred holds breath
[21:17] <ali1234> well you'll be auto-kicked by freenode if you paste huge amounts of text
[21:17] <TheFred> ah, no, i was kicked because the act of pasting user names pings every name pasted
[21:17] <ali1234> yes it does
[21:18] <ali1234> that's the point of it
[21:18] <TheFred> i didnt know that at the time, and spent a while appologising for a newbie mistool
[21:19] <ali1234> anyway what your system has in common with an OSK is they are both software input methods as opposed to hardware keyboards
[21:19] <ali1234> so they both need to inject input via software
[21:19] <ali1234> and they both need some model of the windowing system
[21:19] <TheFred> i understand
[21:20] <TheFred> but for the present im relying on the user to have focused the cursor on where they want the text to appear
[21:20] <ali1234> well yes
[21:20] <ali1234> you can detect when that happens though
[21:20] <ali1234> somehow
[21:20] <TheFred> I've been getting friends/family to test it out, and they seem happy with it, except the HUD issue
[21:21] <ali1234> another thing you could do, which is completely different, is implement keyboard profile using gadget-fs on the android device
[21:21] <ali1234> then when you plug in the phone to any computer it will be detected as a keyboard
[21:21] <TheFred> i had not considered that
[21:21] <ali1234> you probably need a patched android kernel to do that though
[21:21] <ali1234> possibly not though
[21:22] <TheFred> yea, i just looked at my research notes and re-read that root would been needed for that
[21:22] <ali1234> benefit would be it works on any computer with no drivers
[21:23] <TheFred> since the later step of voice command is so huge im going to open-source it since so many people want so many different features
[21:23] <TheFred> yea, i was avoiding driver at all costs, hence my use of sockets and xdotool
[21:25] <TheFred> phase 1 is to release the package so users can install it via software center
[21:25] <TheFred> between building a decent android app, and getting the pc side to work it can get a bit thorny...
[21:26]  * TheFred goes off to learn more about packaging
[21:26] <ali1234> yeah, with gadgetfs you need no software at all on the pc
[21:27] <TheFred> really?
[21:27] <ali1234> yeah
[21:28] <ali1234> PC will think your phone is a keyboard
[21:28] <TheFred> wow - info about gadgetfs is a bit thin
[21:29] <ali1234> yes
[21:29] <ali1234> however one of the example programs is a keyboard emulator
[21:29] <TheFred> cool - im hunting for examples now..
[21:30] <ali1234> i have no idea if you could get it working on an unrooted android phone
[21:30] <TheFred> yea, thats the show stopper
[21:30] <ali1234> http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/
[21:30] <TheFred> thanks
[21:31] <TheFred> thats another show stopper : requires device to be usb connected.
[21:31] <ali1234> http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtml
[21:31] <ali1234> actually you could do it over bluetooth too
[21:31] <ali1234> you need to use a different API though
[21:32] <TheFred> my present solution works over wifi so users can dictate while making coffee, walking around, etc
[21:32] <ali1234> eg http://www.valeriovalerio.org/?page_id=174
[21:32] <ali1234> there's multiple ways to do it without drivers
[21:33] <TheFred> the usb needing root is less of an issue with newer devices because they have host mode, which can be tweaked
[21:33] <ali1234> host mode is specifically not what you want
[21:34] <ali1234> keyboards are not host
[21:34] <TheFred> i know:), but its that level of functionality that would be needed
[21:35] <ali1234> not at all, gadgetfs is completely different
[21:37] <TheFred> damit, now i've been searching google all day for python and android questions it seems to have tainted my search results for packaging python programs:(
[21:39] <TheFred> ali1234, thanks for your input, its appreciated (no pun intended)
[22:06] <TheFred> hmm, creating .deb files is not straight forward
[22:06]  * TheFred goes for coffee
[22:06] <AlanBell> hi TheFred
[22:06] <TheFred> aha
[22:06] <TheFred> hello
[22:07] <TheFred> I was wondering if i am chosing the best tool when it comes to remotely entering text
[22:07] <AlanBell> oh speech input to HUD, great I was hoping someone would do that :)
[22:08] <AlanBell> that probably isn't the best way to do it if you want to automate the HUD
[22:08] <TheFred> hehe it had its thorny moments, but getting text into the HUD is a real pain. im using xdotool but it wont work on the HUD
[22:08] <TheFred> no, automation is not the goal really. my first step is simple voice input
[22:08] <AlanBell> use the dbus api, that way you can get all the possible options and create a grammar for the recognitino engine
[22:08] <TheFred> aha
[22:09] <AlanBell> then you can use the api to poke it to press the most likely menu option
[22:09] <TheFred> thats great food for thought
[22:10] <AlanBell> are you using something that wants JSGF grammar files?
[22:10] <AlanBell> like pocketsphinx
[22:10] <TheFred> no, for now im keeping it very simple, Im using an android app to do the speech recognition
[22:10] <AlanBell> running it on Ubuntu or on a phone?
[22:11]  * AlanBell hasn't read all the scrollback
[22:11] <TheFred> on a phone, which sends it to a socket for a python program to read and punch into via xdotool
[22:13] <AlanBell> ah ok, I was looking at doing some HUD specific stuff with greater recognition accuracy by knowing all the available things you can say
[22:13] <TheFred> Im digesting everything i can about packaging my python program and its dependancies into a .deb for launchpad
[22:13] <TheFred> yes - thats a later goal
[22:13] <TheFred> so if the phone app mis-hears me the best match is performed
[22:14] <AlanBell> well I doubt you would be able to pass the grammar back to the phone easily
[22:14] <AlanBell> but in principal you could swap the phone bit for pocketsphinx anyhow
[22:15] <AlanBell> there are some specific hacks to get onboard to float above the HUD and dash, but I don't think they relate to input events, just the user interface
[22:15] <TheFred> if i do that im depriving my self of any form of income from the app tho
[22:16] <TheFred> my plan is to sell the android app for a very small sum, and open up the pc side
[22:16] <AlanBell> ok
[22:16] <AlanBell> I don't know what recognition engine android uses anyhow
[22:18] <TheFred> its all done on googles servers and seems to work very well
[22:18] <AlanBell> ah, ok like siri on apple stuff
[22:18] <TheFred> yes
[22:19] <TheFred> the more its used the better it seems to get
[22:20] <TheFred> I am using it here to save me from typing
[22:20] <TheFred> all I have to do is talk and the text appears press enter
[22:20] <TheFred> I find it works best with a small calls between each word
[22:20] <TheFred> lol
[22:21] <TheFred> see - its nearl perfect - it heard calls when i said pause
[22:21] <marsilainen> I bet its spelling is better than mine too :)
[22:22] <TheFred> it seems to depend on how i try to talk
[22:23] <TheFred> the best results seem to come from stopping to mentaly compose what you are about to say
[22:23] <TheFred> and is another reason why i want to get voice input nailed down before i move onto voice commanding
[22:24] <AlanBell> it sounds like an interesting project
[22:24] <TheFred> AlanBell, do you have any beginners guides for dbus API?
[22:24] <AlanBell> and continuous speech recognition just isn't anywhere close with any of the engines we have
[22:25] <AlanBell> install d-feet it is a dbus explorer
[22:25] <TheFred> sadly true - the app i created is a 'press to listen' so the users compose a sentence at a time, instead of a paragraph
[22:26] <TheFred> thanks - i'll look at d-feet now
[22:26]  * TheFred goes off - brb
[22:26] <AlanBell> file-connect to session bus
[22:26] <AlanBell> then com.canonical.hud is the thing to look for
[22:26] <TheFred> thank you for that it is appreciated
[23:09] <mgdm> is Scribus even half-usable? Been a while since I tried
[23:29] <TheFred> oh noes! i've forgotten my gpg passkey
[23:30] <mcphail> TheFred: it is "password123", just like mine
[23:30] <TheFred> nope
[23:31] <TheFred> :(
[23:31] <TheFred> hmm, guess i'll have to make another