[00:34] <ailo> Couldn't sleep and had a second look at the feature tour. Right now it's very clearly application orientated (aside from the main categoried, audio, graphics, etc). I'd like to make it workflow orientated, as in: recording, mixing, mastering, 3D modelling, movie making, etc..
[00:35] <ailo> And for each workflow, lift out one application, while naming a list of applications related
[00:36] <ailo> I also think we should add info on applications that we can't include in the repo, such as cinerella
[00:36] <ailo> And linux-sampler
[00:41] <ailo> Of course, keeping the categories
[00:53] <ailo> ScottL: What came to mind is what is probably already spelled out by someone, or just in front of us. Workflow main categories, and sub categories
[01:50] <ailo> ScottL: Also, I went ahead and added a category "publishing", which I hope is a good term for making e-books etc
[03:10] <ailo> ScottL: Concerning publishing. From what I can see there are two popular apps besides Libreoffice: Scribus and Calibre
[03:12] <ailo> Calibre seems very easy to get into. Nice templates
[04:00] <len-dt> ailo, Looks good. I would say put it up. 
[04:03] <len-dt> I like Lyx for publishing... but it may be kinda old now. It is book based as compared to document based.
[04:12] <ScottL> ailo, right! my goal on the installation slideshow and web site home page slideshow was to talk about what the user wanted to accomplish, ala "want to record your band? we can help you"
[04:13] <ScottL> which is very much aligned with the work flows, just that we are starting with what the user wants to accomplish (aka the end of the work flow)
[04:13] <ScottL> and we keep it simple for the slideshows, just mention what we can do or help the user to accomplish
[04:13] <ScottL> then the feature tour takes each of those topics and breaks it out a bit and mention some of the outstanding features of them
[04:14] <ScottL> e.g. unlimited tracks and 200+ installed plugin effects for "recording your band" or "recording audio"
[04:15] <ScottL> maybe not the backbone of the audio work (jack really is the backbone) but these are "sexy" selling points that probably will draw new users in
[04:16] <ScottL> ailo, while i know that scribus is a robust DTP, i'm not sure it can convert to EPUB or similar...of course, i don't know that it can't either :)
[04:16] <ScottL> calibre does convert to EPUB, which is what i used last night
[04:17] <ScottL> the calibre website has a nice set of tutorial links that are really helpful
[04:18]  * ScottL is heading to bed now and probably won't be having trouble sleeping
[04:52] <len-dt> ScottL, that pod cast on gnuworldorder was very informative and complete.
[05:02] <len-dt> It appears that importing video in real time is a communication tool rather than an artistic tool. Streaming into the machine seems to be a last resort and then straight to disk anyway. Not for live editing.
[11:03] <ScottL> astraljava, i did not work on the xfce4-utils problem, however i will bump it in priority and will do it tonight
[11:06] <ailo> ScottL: I'm gonna add publishing to the website today, even though we don't preinstall those packages. Please do review the entire site once you get the time for it though (I will also polish a couple of pics today)
[12:01] <astraljava> ScottL: ACK
[12:55] <ailo> scott-work: I'd like to wait with workflow orientated docs until next release. The website I think should be published before that. I'm eager to get going with other items. Also, I feel I could do a lot of good work on documenting work flows, however, I will need more time and research, and that will have to wait until later
[12:56] <ailo> As always, I'm unclear. I'd like to publish when 12.10 is released. But, wait with the work until later. And just publish the web site as soon as possible
[12:57] <ailo> I swear, I must have some kind of a weird brain damage
[12:58] <ailo> The workflow docs should be published in time for the 12.10 release, while the website should be published as soon as possible. That's what I'm trying to say :P
[13:31] <ailo> scott-work: Right, all done for now. Will do other things for a while. Let men know when you've had a look.
[13:36] <scott-work> i'm not sure any documentation is required for the website at this point
[13:37] <scott-work> i wasn't expecting the feature tour to actually explain anything in any great technical detail. rather i viewed it more as a sales job, kinda like the lightworks link you put up yesterday
[13:37] <scott-work> oh, wait, maybe i'm saying what you are saying :P
[13:37] <scott-work> nevermind
[13:49] <scott-work> ailo: one thing i do want to mention is that i feel we should focus firstly on documentation for what we ship in contrast to applications we don't
[13:50] <scott-work> so i would prefer if we got the documentation complete for the included apps before we start documenting linux sampler, cinelerra, etc
[13:50] <ailo> scott-work: The problem with linux-sampler and cinerella is that there aren't anything to substitute them in the repo
[13:50] <scott-work> of course i realize this is all volunteer work and you are also free to work on whatever you would like
[13:50] <ailo> So, people will want to install them
[13:51] <ailo> I wouldn't add info on proprietary software, but these two are special
[13:51] <ailo> They are GPL, only a bit more restrictive
[13:51] <ailo> I feel like it would be hiding good info not telling about those apps
[13:52] <scott-work> ailo: i'm certainly not against having documentation for these applications, it's just that i would prefer getting the stuff we do ship complete first, that's all :)
[13:52] <scott-work> but again, you are certainly free to do as you wish :)
[13:55] <ailo> scott-work: Another thing missing from the mix is talking about vst
[13:56] <ailo> That is something many people wonder about
[13:57] <ailo> I think, if Ubuntu Studio is to be the center of linux multimedia production, which is sort of natural for Ubuntu Studio in my view, we can't be too specialized. That would mean we need to open doors to all directions. If not have things preinstalled, and preconfigured. Either provide docs, or links to docs
[13:57] <ailo> I'm sure falktx wold be a great asset in expanding that area
[13:58] <ailo> scott-work: What is your view on providing a semi-official Ubuntu Studio ppa, bwt?
[13:59] <ailo> That would make it possible to install all those applications that we can't right now
[13:59] <ailo> Sort of like a "super-ugly" repo
[14:01] <holstein> ailo: for an rt kernel? and other goodies?
[14:01] <holstein> VST's?
[14:01] <ailo> Sure
[14:01] <holstein> interesting
[14:01] <holstein> i like using the KXstudio ones
[14:01] <holstein> gives falk a little press too
[14:02] <ailo> falk would be the logical person to handle the ppa, since he already has it all set up
[14:03] <ailo> I say, semi-official, since I can't really decide what would speak against of for it, and what the rules would be to allow for applications to exist there
[14:21] <ailo> I'm going to try putting up custom kernels to my PPA today. quantal builds
[14:56] <scott-work> i have thought about including certain things in an ubuntu studio ppa, but have been actively discouraged before by a few people
[14:57] <scott-work> these items would be ones that aren't or can't be included in the repos
[14:58] <scott-work> however, if falktx is going to keep the kxstudio ppa going we probably should use it rather than invest the effort to create our own unless it creates problems (e.g. different/later/addition libraries enable applications that conflict)
[14:59] <ailo> We might want a different config for a Ubuntu Studio ppa
[14:59] <scott-work> also this keeps anything that "shouldn't" be in the repos once removed from ubuntu studio might keep it more under the radar and less likely to be removed
[15:00] <scott-work> ailo: what type of config differences do you mean? for the ppa or for the applications?
[15:01] <ailo> The choice of applications + build options for the applications
[15:01] <scott-work> but you don't have any thing specific at this point? just an open option?
[15:02] <ailo> I know the contents of his ppa's too poorly to have any opinions
[15:03] <scott-work> okay, i just didn't know if there was something specific that you already knew about that should change
[15:04] <ailo> He's separated packages into different ppa's as well
[15:04] <ailo> We might not want to do that
[15:04] <ailo> Just keep everything in the same ppa
[15:05] <ailo> Also, he keeps doubles of Ubuntu packages, but more up to date
[15:06] <ailo> We might only want special packages. Not updates
[15:06] <ailo> Like a vst version of ardour, wine-vst, cinerella, linux-sampler
[15:06] <ailo> But not the lates ffado, or jack, unless it really serves a purpose
[15:08] <ailo> The Ubuntu Studio PPA would an addon, adding things that you can't install from regular Ubuntu. Not an upgrade
[15:09] <ailo> damn, no gpg-agent
[15:11] <ailo> Er, never mind
[15:13] <ailo> len-dt: First kernel uploaded. Hopefully it builds. We might not need to do a lot of kernel testing, but hopefully we have that option soon
[15:14] <ailo> Nothing there yet ppa:ailo.at/kernel-testing
[15:15] <ailo> First upload is a simple lowlatency version of the latest quantal kernel. Whenever we want to try a different config, I can add a new kernel for testing
[15:22] <ailo> If this works out, I'll add a howto later. It's based on the scratchpad that Scott put together from alessios lowlatency upload, only I deal with the main ubuntu git tree
[16:53]  * scott-work just noticed his webchat wasn't working :(
[16:53] <scott-work> ailo: which parts of the work flow documentation do you feel we should wait?
[17:02] <ailo> scott-work: I just meant wait with publishing until 12.10. I'd like to spend more time on that, and feel I can do a lot of good work for it. Also, I'd like to create some sort of a simple user guide for the main web site
[17:04] <ailo> Right now I would just like to finish the web site, get it published more or less as it is, and get on with other things for a while
[17:11] <ailo> Given I can find enough time between now and the 12.10 release (I will get a bit busier soon), I feel confident I can assemble more or less full docs on everything we've been talking about.
[17:39] <ailo> ScottL: Again, I'm not being very clear with which is what. I want to publish the web site now, but wait with all the workflow orientated stuff until later, and have that ready for publishing in time for 12.10 release
[19:26] <len-dt> ailo, I do use falktx's ppa for one of my machines. It does upgrade jack, qjackctl, etc sooner than ubuntu. I have had no problems as yet... but all of his stuff starts a ladish session complete with the overhead involved in that. I do not know if this is a good or bad thing.
[19:27] <len-dt> As I have low mem machines, I am perhaps more sensitive to things like that. However, It has not caused me problems so far.
[19:27] <falktx> len-dt: starts ladish? how? that is not the purpose of it at all
[19:28] <len-dt> falktx, perhaps I am using the wrong term.
[19:28] <len-dt>  Maybe it is a jack session... actually this time it did not.
[19:29] <ailo> len-dt: The purpose with the PPA would be to supply extra packages, not upgrades. Otherwise, we might as well keep all of the packages in a PPA
[19:29] <len-dt> OK when I start zynjacku I get a message saying ladi session started
[19:31] <ailo> falktx: I was discussing the possibility of having a Ubuntu Studio Extra ppa, with packages that cannot be included in the Ubuntu repo, like linux-sampler, cinerella etc
[19:31] <len-dt> Can we specify which packages come from where?
[19:32] <ailo> What do you mean?
[19:32] <ailo> Right now, I don't think we're assisting in any package maintanance, except Ubuntu Studio desktop stuff
[19:32] <len-dt> ailo, I originally added the ppa to get an extra package (zonage). But once I added it I have been getting upgrades as well.
[19:33] <ailo> Oh, I haven't looked into that. Things like that should be possible to configure
[19:33] <len-dt> Could we specify that only extra packages come from an outside ppa as part of the distro config?
[19:33] <falktx> len-dt: zynjacku is an odd case, it uses python-lash that brings ladish
[19:34] <falktx> len-dt: I think that if you remove liblash-compat-1debian0 it wont anymore
[19:35] <len-dt> falktx, Not a complaint, I think we mentioned this before. I just wanted us to be aware of things. I could remove ladish, but as it is a part of US, I would prefer not to. I want to get to know it so I can answer questions about US as a whole.
[19:37] <ailo> Does it normally take more than 3-4 hours to sources to upload and begin building at a PPA?
[19:37] <scott-work> ailo: you can click on 'view details' to see how long it might be scheduled
[19:37]  * scott-work realized his webchat crapped out again
[19:38] <scott-work> ailo: it depends on what else is building currently, they schedule by importance. i have had my stuff delayed for two days before
[19:40] <ailo> scott-work: Really? My upload hasn't showed up at all yet. Well, hopefully it'll pop up in time
[19:40] <falktx> len-dt: lash != ladish
[19:40] <falktx> len-dt: liblash is implemented in ladish, but not required for it to work
[19:41] <scott-work> ailo: check your email then for a rejected source
[19:41] <falktx> ailo: sometimes takes a few minutes, other times a few hours. when rare situations it can take days
[19:42] <falktx> len-dt: note that zynjacku is no longer being developed, and new plugins will not work at all in it
[19:42] <falktx> zynjacku is not lv2 1.0.0 ready
[19:44] <len-dt> falktx, how about lv2rack?
[19:44] <len-dt> I know it doesn't do the same thing, but it looks like the same dev.
[19:45] <scott-work> i think zynjacku and lv2rack both come from the same source code
[19:46] <len-dt> scott-work, so are there other rack type apps to take their place? Or are they even needed?
[19:47] <scott-work> len-dt: manytimes i think people use ardour to host lv2 effects, also there is jack-rack which is separate from everything else we have talked about
[19:47] <falktx> len-dt: it's the same thing, yes
[19:47] <len-dt> jackrack is ladspa
[19:48] <falktx> len-dt: I'm working on my own app for this
[19:48] <falktx> here's an old screenshot:
[19:48] <len-dt> The main use for standalone containers like that is live softsynth use.
[19:48] <falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr081.png
[19:49] <len-dt> That looks pretty ;-) 
[19:49] <falktx> scott-work: I'm hoping to be releasing my Cadence tools as beta1 this month, so maybe it can be pushed to debian or ubuntu
[19:49] <falktx> len-dt: thanks! it's hard work to make everything look nice, but it pays off
[19:50] <falktx> scott-work: once the beta1 is out and packaged, it will be easier to put UbuntuStudio related integration in there (via bug&patches)
[19:50] <len-dt> falktx, does each module show as a separate midi/jack port?
[19:50] <falktx> also being packages means a wider audience too
[19:51] <falktx> len-dt: yep, all plugins instances show as separate jack clients
[19:51] <falktx> parameters are automable via midi-cc
[19:51] <falktx> there are some hidden tricks in there too
[19:52] <len-dt> That was one of the things I noticed about zynjacku, it seems there is only one midi input.
[19:52] <falktx> supports ladspa, dssi, lv2 and vst (no vstsdk required though). also loads gig, sf2 and sfz sound banks
[19:52] <falktx> I want to support *everything*
[19:52] <len-dt> falktx, sounds like it.
[19:53] <len-dt> That is just sound gen plugins? or does it do effects too?
[19:53] <falktx> all kind of plugins
[19:53] <falktx> they are just exported to jack
[19:54] <len-dt> Down the road it would be nice to use one app to replace three or four like that.
[19:56] <len-dt> falktx, right now we have a dssi container, a ladspa container, an lv2 synth and an lv2 effect container... and no VST.
[19:57] <len-dt> falktx, being able to replace all of those with one app, would be much more user friendly/intuitive ... pick you word.
[19:58] <len-dt> It translates well to a hardware rack that people (well me anyway) are used to.
[20:02] <len-dt> The user doesn't have to think about what kind of synth it is... just midi in and audio out.
[20:09] <falktx> damn internet
[20:29] <scott-work> i've been having trouble with webchat dropping but not disconnecting :/
[22:03] <ailo> 2
[22:21] <ailo> hmm, is wine changing?
[22:21] <ailo> I thought the maintainer had stopped maintaing for Debian, but now it has appeared again to Wheezy
[22:21] <ailo> I don't recognize the packages. There's a lot of them
[22:21] <ailo> Interesting to see if it will be the same for Ubuntu
[22:22] <ailo> nah, never mind
[22:29] <len-dt> ailo, I got a "Len we have to go now and pick up a piano"...
[22:34] <ailo> len-dt: Hope it's a small one :)
[22:35] <len-dt> Sort of mid... 46inches tall
[22:35] <len-dt> Old and in need of love.
[22:35] <ailo> Old and heavy probably 
[22:35] <len-dt> But at least my wife didn't pay much
[22:36] <len-dt> A steel sound board is a steel sound board.
[22:36] <len-dt> It is in our living room now.
[22:36] <ailo> Mine is light enough for two guys. 2 stings per key on the higher octaves, and a lot of the wood can easily be lifted off
[22:37] <ailo> 2 strings*. Also, not the full key range
[22:37] <ailo> Bach and Mozart works. Some Beethoven needs a bit lower notes than what I have
[22:38] <len-dt> This is full range, 3 strings on the top half... except the the 4 or 5 that are missing...
[22:38] <ailo> len-dt: No backs hurt?
[22:38] <len-dt> I'll know tomorrow ;-)
[22:38] <len-dt> Most pianos can be moved with two people if it is done right.
[22:39] <ailo> I guess that depends on the guy and the piano
[22:39] <ailo> But sure, equipment should help
[22:40] <ailo> 3 strings makes a much fuller sound. I'll get a bigger piano later on (when I have a place to keep it)
[22:40] <len-dt> Most "electric grands" have two.
[22:41] <ailo> Yeah, they sound a bit guitarish almost
[22:43] <len-dt> piano and guitar are already a lot a like. mixing a piano and guitar and being able to hear both at the same time is an art.
[22:48] <ailo> Mine is pretty soft for a 2 string, but lacks some depth. Works well enough for Back, as I mentioned. Just hard to get any great atmosphere
[22:48] <ailo> Bach*
[22:49] <len-dt> I'm not a kb player really. It's for my wife.
[22:52] <len-dt> She plays guitar as well, but I think piano is pretty new for her.
[22:53] <ailo> Piano is cool to have at home. Good to have if the kids get insterested in music
[22:54] <len-dt> I hope so. I will have to fix it up and tune it...
[22:56] <ailo> Never done that yet myself. Shouldn't be too hard. Just gotta have an ok mic and a good tuner
[22:56] <ailo> And time
[22:56] <ailo> Imagine tuning a church organ
[22:57] <ailo> They usually change tuning during the seasons