[00:00] <brousch> looks about the same for local stuff
[00:00] <rick_h> yea, but it's built for remote
[00:00] <rick_h> and doesn't have the built in dep checking/etc
[00:01] <rick_h> rake in ruby and paver scons are probably closer
[00:01] <rick_h> paver/scons in python
[00:14] <brousch> I am liking Fabric. I can replace my usual scripts dir with one fabfile
[00:14] <brousch> And it's python
[00:15] <rick_h> yea, I ran half of morpace with fabric
[00:15] <rick_h> I didn't do makefiles nutil joining canonical
[00:15] <rick_h> anmd
[00:15] <rick_h> and then came around that they're better for what I wanted to do
[00:15] <brousch> I like to stick with pure python whenever possible. Makes it easier when I have to touch Windows
[00:18] <rick_h> yea, it's a good in theory
[00:19] <rick_h> but shell ispowerful, make can call python scripts, and one less dep to install, installing fabric can be a pita
[00:27] <brousch> Why is that?
[00:27] <brousch> I did have to install python-dev for it
[00:28] <rick_h> yea, you need python-dev and some ssl stuff for the ssh client
[00:28] <rick_h> and it takes time to compile/etc
[00:29] <rick_h> nice thing is that with the makefile, you can wget that, and run make all and it'll setup the virtualenv, git clone the rpo, install all deps, copiy all settings/etc files, one command, one time
[00:29] <rick_h> I love fabric though, good guys. I've got commits in there
[00:39] <brousch> paver seems much messier
[00:46] <MaskedDriver> brousch: thanks for approving me on Launchpad
[00:48] <brousch> Ah-ha! Flask has it's own script thingy http://packages.python.org/Flask-Script/
[00:49] <rick_h> this is like django management commands
[00:49] <rick_h> not like make
[00:50] <rick_h> or even fabric to an extent
[00:52] <brousch> I can see why you like Make. It's a lot cleaner than these Python alternatives
[00:53] <rick_h> the big thing is that make can detect if a file has changed, and only run a command if it needs to
[00:53] <brousch> I need a pure Python Makefile runner ;)
[00:53] <rick_h> so let's say you want to minify js, bookie's make commands only minify if the original .js files change
[00:54] <rick_h> it's much smarter about things and has some cool concepts/shortcuts
[00:54] <rick_h> shoot, I only barely know enough to make it useful, I
[00:54] <rick_h> 've still not gone through half my make book
[00:55] <rick_h> sweet, laptop is stateside, AK to KY now
[00:55] <rick_h> might make it by wed yet
[00:57] <MaskedDriver> which lappy did you get rick_h?
[00:57] <rick_h> x230
[00:57] <MaskedDriver> Thinkpad?
[00:57] <rick_h> yea, the one true laptop
[00:58] <MaskedDriver> lol
[00:58] <MaskedDriver> that's debatable
[00:58] <rick_h> ready when you are :)
[00:58] <MaskedDriver> what are we laptopping for? what purpose?
[00:59] <rick_h> work, it's my machine I rnu my work/life on
[00:59] <MaskedDriver> so hacking?
[00:59] <rick_h> I have a dock, etc
[00:59] <rick_h> yea, I work from home so my laptop is my work machine, play machine, etc
[00:59] <rick_h> you should come down to CHC weds
[00:59] <MaskedDriver> gotcha... The machine I'd really like is an MSI GT70
[01:00] <MaskedDriver> or one of the new Alienware ones with dual Radeon 7970s
[01:00] <MaskedDriver> ... if only it weren't alienware :(
[01:00] <rick_h> ugh
[01:00] <rick_h> gaming I guess?
[01:00] <MaskedDriver> yeah
[01:00] <rick_h> only reason for that stuff I can think of
[01:00] <MaskedDriver> yeah
[01:00] <rick_h> lol 17" display
[01:01] <MaskedDriver> my boss just bought one with an 18.4" display
[01:01] <MaskedDriver> dumbest thing I've ever seen
[01:03] <MaskedDriver> but yeah... I want something I can also play games on
[01:03] <widox> yikes, 18" laptop display. that sounds to painful to be portable
[01:04] <MaskedDriver> widox: yeah... that'll sit right next to his machine with 64GB RAM, 2 512GB SSDs, 3rd gen i7 and dual Geforce 680's
[01:04] <MaskedDriver> he may or may not make too much money ;)
[01:05] <MaskedDriver> I'm perfectly happy with my 1st gen i7, 12gb ram, and Radeon 6850
[01:05] <Blazeix> i bet that runs solitaire really well
[01:05] <MaskedDriver> Blazeix: naw.. kinda laggy
[01:05] <rick_h> lol
[01:07] <MaskedDriver> he's actually never used it except for the day he built it. He didn't have any room in his house for it
[01:07] <MaskedDriver> my co-worker is borrowing it until he gets moved in to his new place
[01:11] <rick_h> greg-g: you sucker
[01:13] <rick_h> greg-g: got me into this typing game :P
[01:16] <rick_h> http://www.phoboslab.org/ztype/
[01:16] <rick_h> 91% woot
[01:28] <derekv> 2099 91.99 on normal
[01:42] <derekv> 3554 expert
[01:42] <derekv> and it was a bit more intense
[01:58] <rick_h> much better on the desktop keyboard, 96% 24k on normal
[01:58] <rick_h> I'll have to try on the kenisis sometime
[02:01] <MaskedDriver> 3980, 95.5% on normal
[02:02] <rick_h> woot!
[02:02] <MaskedDriver> it's not me.. it's the daskeyboard
[02:02] <MaskedDriver> mechanical keyboard supremecy
[02:02] <rick_h> yea, unicomp model m here
[02:02] <MaskedDriver> very ncie
[02:03] <rick_h> banging the keys sounds like real shots getting fired!
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> agreed
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> are those cherry blue?
[02:03] <rick_h> no, model M buckling spring
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> oooh right
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> I haven't typed on one of those in awhile
[02:03] <rick_h> I've got blue and browns in some leopold 10less keyboards here, not as big a fan as teh springs
[02:03] <rick_h> the kensis uses browns as well I think
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> not a fan of brown
[02:03] <MaskedDriver> I prefer the blue, I'll have to type on the springs again to see how I like that
[02:04] <rick_h> yea, got brown because of the noise in the office when I worked in the office two days a week
[02:04] <rick_h> springs ftw imo, but I tend to swap out keyboards every now and again
[02:04] <MaskedDriver> ah right, way to be considerate :)
[02:04] <MaskedDriver> the day I got the daskeyboard I got it shipped to work and I used it all day
[02:04] <MaskedDriver> folks were NOT happy
[02:04] <MaskedDriver> they'd walk over and yell "CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK!!!!"
[02:05] <derekv> i watched a video, about how that means your pressing down further than you need to
[02:05] <MaskedDriver> anyway, now that I've sufficiently given myself carpel tunnel, I'm going to bed
[02:06] <rick_h> yea, definitely pressing farther than I need to for it to pick it up, but the feel is awesome
[02:06] <rick_h> actually had sore fingers the first week with the unicomp, more muscles ftw! :)
[02:06] <MaskedDriver> derekv: the springs or the cherry's?
[02:06] <MaskedDriver> I guess either
[02:06] <MaskedDriver> but it still increases precision and speed
[02:07] <MaskedDriver> after typing on a mechanical, I'll never go back if I have the choice (I don't at work)
[02:08] <MaskedDriver> not the best for gaming, but that's what I have my Naga and Logitech G13 for. Keyboard is for typing
[02:08] <MaskedDriver> anywho.. have a good night, all. Catch you all tomorrow
[02:09] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: toss me a link in Twitter with info on CHC, I'll try to make it if I can
[02:10] <MaskedDriver> nvm found it on the site. Caribou Coffee
[02:11] <derekv> MaskedDriver, all of them I think
[02:11] <derekv> there's two clicks
[02:11] <derekv> one is softer, indicates you've pressed far enough to register
[02:11] <derekv> the second is louder, its the keycap hitting the bottom of the board
[02:12] <MaskedDriver> I'd say there's three
[02:12] <derekv> kinesis has a modified switch where the first click is softer but they enhance it with an electronic click which you can disable
[02:12] <MaskedDriver> actuating, keycap and retracting
[02:12] <derekv> sure
[02:12] <MaskedDriver> nothing feels better than having the keys push your fingers back up to go straight to the next key
[02:12] <derekv> if your trying to be loud
[02:12] <derekv> =p
[02:12] <MaskedDriver> derekv: I'll take loud over slow and unresponsive any day ;)
[02:13] <MaskedDriver> I doubt those around me would agree, but screw 'em, I say!
[02:13] <MaskedDriver> I'm outtie.. later
[02:17] <derekv> if they can notice you they aren't working hard enough
[03:10] <derekv> you know if I didn't know any better
[03:10] <derekv> i'd say its getting hotter
[03:35] <derekv> typing tutor
[11:11] <snap-l> rick_h: Hope your pup has a speedy recovery.
[11:41] <shakes808> morning all
[11:41] <MaskedDriver> morning
[11:41] <brousch> yes
[11:53] <rick_h> snap-l: thanks, same here poor girl
[11:55] <rick_h> so boy came to me asking to get a tool from the garage because his wooden Thomas train is broken and he needs to fix it
[11:55]  * rick_h is so proud
[11:55] <rick_h> gave him a small screwdriver and told him to get to work lol
[11:56] <MaskedDriver> :)
[11:56] <MaskedDriver> even if he can't fix it.. it's the initiative that counts
[11:56] <rick_h> oh yea, there's nothing wrong with it. I just gave it to him yesterday
[11:57] <rick_h> he's just in an "I've got to fix it" mode
[11:57] <brousch> Nice
[11:57] <rick_h> and figured out dad gets the tools from the garage
[11:59] <MaskedDriver> yeah
[12:42] <brousch> http://slo.craigslist.org/bik/3050996290.html
[12:44] <rick_h> hate the handlebars, but funny
[12:46] <MaskedDriver> fixie don't stop
[12:55] <snap-l> Nuts, I forgot an Ethernet cord for the wireless router I'm bringing tonight
[12:55] <snap-l> anyone got a spare they can put in their backpack?
[12:56] <rick_h> snap-l: sure thing
[12:56] <snap-l> Thanks
[12:58] <rick_h> ~138447
[13:04] <Milyardo> Is CHC tonight or something?
[13:05] <rick_h> MUG is
[13:06] <rick_h> CHC is wed nights
[13:10] <shakes808> about MUG, they guy who tapes the meetings, where does he post those at? I won't be able to make it tonight but would like to watch it.
[13:14] <brousch> rick_h: One less reason to hate JQuery https://github.com/jquery/jquery#modules-new-in-18
[13:15] <rick_h> man, I'm so happy today. Finally an ssh-agent again. Life is sooo ogood
[13:15] <rick_h> brousch: getting closer, now you only need to have node, npm, and grunt installed to tweak your JS usage :P
[13:16] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: lol ofc you find fault with it
[13:16] <rick_h> let me know when I'm wrong and I'll fess up :P
[13:17] <rick_h> what I <3 about the YUI combo loader stuff. By default if you load the right base file, it'll deduce the location of the rest from that and works without running anything
[13:18] <MaskedDriver> but YUI was built by Yahoo! :(
[13:18] <rick_h> yep, clearly they've never had a site with large traffic in their life
[13:18] <MaskedDriver> depends on when those developers started
[13:18] <MaskedDriver> :p
[13:19] <rick_h> le sigh: douglas crockford worked for Yahoo until just recently (last couple of weeks) so they must know nothing of JS now hehe
[13:19] <MaskedDriver> lol
[13:19] <snap-l> What the heck is the point of Two-Factor auth if every application I have needs it's own app-specific password.
[13:19] <snap-l> Sheesh.
[13:20] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: told ya.. you'll have that turned off by week's end
[13:20] <rick_h> it's two factor, not replace everything with one new factor
[13:20] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: doesn't make it any less annoying
[13:21] <rick_h> lastpass, 2-factor to that, and have it auto fill the diff password in each service
[13:22] <brousch> snap-l: Welcome to Google 2-factor hell. Enjoy your stay.
[13:30] <jrwren> rick_h: wtf, how were you without ssh-agent?
[13:30] <jrwren> and for how long?
[13:30] <rick_h> jrwren: about a year
[13:31] <rick_h> jrwren: so there was an update so that the way I ran ssh-agent when I started Awesome broke
[13:31] <jrwren> built by yahoo! is not a :(  yahoo doesn't know how to make money, but they build excellent tech.
[13:31] <jrwren> rick_h: omg, I don't think I could live.
[13:31] <rick_h> and I couldn't figure out how to fix it, so it was started but not before the WM so I lost it on every new terminal
[13:31] <rick_h> if I ran it in a tmux session, that session seemed to keep it
[13:31] <rick_h> so it wasn't that bad, but let's just say I'll never forget my ssh key
[13:32] <rick_h> but today got thinking it must be something in lightdm I could do and found our there's a new .xsessionrc that's run (.xinit isn't I guess)
[13:32] <rick_h> from /etc/X11/Xsession.d scripts
[13:32] <jrwren> export SSH_AUTH_SOCK=`find /tmp/ssh*  -type s -printf "%T+ %p\n" 2>/dev/null | head -1 | cut -f 2 -d " "`  in my PROMPT_COMMAND to fix my agent post-screen reconnection
[13:32] <rick_h> added that and only had to enter my ssh key once in the last hour
[13:33] <rick_h> oh, yea don't know why I didn't see/think of that :P
[13:33] <derekv> i've wasted time being ssh'd to the wrong machine a few times... for a while i had a card in my wallet with fingerprints on it
[13:34] <derekv> ssh is one of my avorite things ever
[13:34] <jrwren> +1
[13:34] <rick_h> yea, agent back is so nice...bzr pull without another key entry, git push without another entry...
[13:35] <rick_h> don't realize how much stuff runs over ssh
[13:35] <derekv> its the more other ssl
[13:35] <derekv> re
[13:35] <jrwren> -R, -L, -D, ControlMaster, ForwardAgent and so on. they are awesome.
[13:35] <derekv> its the other ssl
[13:35] <derekv> ( even more other? )
[13:35] <derekv>  ( otherer?)
[13:36] <jrwren> its at a layer higher than ssl.
[13:36] <derekv> perhaps
[13:36] <jrwren> definite
[13:36] <derekv> and 802.1x is lower
[13:37] <jrwren> i'm not sure what 802.1x is :)
[13:37] <derekv> layer 2(?) authentication
[13:37] <derekv> need to double check, but I think layer 2
[13:37] <jrwren> port based NAC
[13:38] <derekv> that'd be layer 1
[13:38] <derekv> its what enterprise wifi security is based on
[13:38] <derekv> but it predates wifi
[13:38] <derekv> you can run it on wired networks
[13:38] <jrwren> layer1 is the cable
[13:39] <derekv> layer one is physical eg ethernet, layer 2 is like ... the mac addresses ... shiii now i'm not sure
[13:39] <derekv> layer two is like what happens on your subnet
[13:39] <derekv> nah
[13:40] <derekv> the network segment? whats the word i'm looking for... everything behind the router
[13:40] <derekv> often but not nessisarily one subnet
[13:40] <derekv> arp
[13:40] <derekv> switches and hubs
[13:41] <derekv> 802.1x is at that leveel, the switches have to understand it
[13:41] <derekv> you need a radius server
[13:41] <derekv> it encrypts traffic and authenticates
[13:41] <derekv> so you can have encryption over the wire on your lan
[13:41] <derekv> for the paranoid
[13:41] <jrwren> hehe.
[13:41] <jrwren> well, the answer is "it depends"
[13:41] <jrwren> but i KNOW :)
[13:41] <derekv> then they adopted it for wifi
[13:41] <jrwren> *nod*
[13:42] <derekv> =]
[13:42] <derekv> I like explaining stuff
[13:42] <derekv> :p
[13:42] <derekv> gtg
[13:42] <jrwren> wifi mucks it up a bit, because it has its own link layer for doing things like connecting to an SSID
[13:42] <jrwren> yes, its how we learn.
[13:42] <jrwren> just remember, OSI is a MODEL and all models are inaccurate
[13:43] <derekv> yea
[13:44] <derekv> not surprising if wifi modifies 802.1x a bit but its still called 802.1x if you look at the way its spec'd out... the AP surves the same function as a switch...
[13:44] <jrwren> yup.
[13:44] <derekv> I set up a radius AD server for some APs once it was slick
[13:44] <derekv> got it all working cause I was leaving that job
[13:44] <derekv> then my replacement came in and instantly turned it off
[13:44] <derekv> made me sick
[13:45] <jrwren> i've never used an 802.1x lan
[13:45] <derekv> it was working fine, he said, we are going to get some new devices, we don't know if they suport enterprise wlan yet
[13:45] <derekv> i was like, my fucking android supports it
[13:45] <jrwren> you should take pride in your work, but not let your work define you.
[13:45] <derekv> and these will be enterprise devices
[13:45] <derekv> also, then never got these devices
[13:45] <derekv> =[
[13:45] <derekv> they
[13:45] <derekv> yea
[13:46] <derekv> well, I do ... its a shame I can't still be there making everything perfect but I couldn't have stayed there and continued to grow and I can't do everything
[13:46] <derekv> I tried for a bit though
[13:47] <derekv> bbl
[14:00] <rick_h> man I <3 esata "backup this 15GB...ummm...ok....done"
[14:08] <jrwren> if you have really fast disks its even faster than gigabit :)
[14:09] <jrwren> rick_h: what is your position on testing state of private variables. I'd like to change some things to _ private to relay intent, but I want ot test their values too.
[14:18] <rick_h> jrwren: so generally I find it a no-no
[14:18] <rick_h> if I want to test it, I try to test it indirectly
[14:18] <rick_h> that some method does some default thing which might be using that private var
[14:18] <rick_h> jrwren: but it has been done and will be done again I'm sure
[14:27] <jrwren> rick_h: yeah, i agree, i was just looking for someone to tell me it is OK so that I don't do the RIGHT thing and extract a new class with more singular behavior and have those values be public there where it makes sense
[14:28] <rick_h> jrwren: hah, sorry. If the 'right' thing is apparent I say go for it, but I think we've all done the shortcut and as long as it's tested and it changes the breakage is obvious
[14:28] <rick_h> and then you just move the 'right thing' downstream to some poor schmuck who'll do it wrong anyway :)
[14:59] <jrwren> i don't have a downstream
[15:01] <brousch> What an unholy mess
[15:01] <brousch> Working with a n00b on a website, and he started with Dreamweaver.
[15:01] <MaskedDriver> is he a designer?
[15:02] <rick_h> *sigh* getting my django mess from yesterday code reviewed
[15:03] <rick_h> "django has a thing for this, just use that there..." "but the docs say it doesn't" "trust me, it does what you need there"
[15:03] <brousch> No, he is nothing right now
[15:03] <MaskedDriver> ah
[15:03] <brousch> He was going to pay for software to make a javascript slideshow
[15:03] <rick_h> oh geeze
[15:05] <MaskedDriver> lol
[15:05] <MaskedDriver> that's awesome
[15:05] <MaskedDriver> let him do it
[15:05] <brousch> Yeah, I decided to mentor him on this project instead of just doing it myself. Good karma and all that
[15:05] <MaskedDriver> brousch: that's nice of you
[15:06] <snap-l> brousch: When you kill yourself, the gods will smile on your good deeds
[15:06] <brousch> Community building you know
[15:06] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: was about to say something about the same
[15:06] <MaskedDriver> I only have a certain amount of mentoring I can do before I start throwing things
[15:06] <MaskedDriver> someone wanting to BUY a javascript slideshow is where I draw the line
[15:07] <brousch> He just didn't know free stuff was out there
[15:10] <brousch> He had 1 external stylesheet, 3 sections of style in the header, and a bunch of inline styles
[15:10] <brousch> Also bits and pieces of a reset in the header
[15:14] <jrwren> wtf is wrong with buying a slideshow?
[15:14] <jrwren> yeah, its just ignorance, and besides, you buy, you get support.
[15:14] <jrwren> they'd probably hold his hand to code its use.
[15:14] <jrwren> then you don't have to!
[15:16] <brousch> There are 10,000 slideshow frameworks for free. Why would you pay for one?
[15:18] <jrwren> because you are not comfortable suporting a free one and want the security of support for a paid for.
[15:18] <jrwren> same with all dev software.
[15:19] <jrwren> i'm not saying that I would do it. It is a valid reason.
[15:23] <Milyardo> There are people who sell javascript framworks?
[15:23] <brousch> If you're not comfortable using a little javascript slideshow, you have no business trying to make a website
[15:24] <brousch> You will end up buying every little widget
[15:27] <Milyardo> God forbid if you must implement any DSL in javascript
[15:28] <brousch> My guess is he was going to buy a Flash slideshow, not Javascript
[15:31] <jrwren> its not bad at all if you are in the widget selling business
[15:33] <snap-l> It's not bad if people buy from whatever business you're selling. :)
[15:33] <snap-l> If someone buys one of my buggy-whips, I can claim 100% increase in sales
[15:34] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: what was that game we were playing last night? the typing one... do you remember the URL?
[15:34] <snap-l> doesn't hail the return of the horse and buggy
[15:34] <MaskedDriver> my boss wants to check i tout
[15:34] <MaskedDriver> it
[15:34] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: Wrong george.
[15:34] <MaskedDriver> who was it?
[15:34] <snap-l> (ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nRboFgu8Tc)
[15:35] <MaskedDriver> lol
[15:35] <MaskedDriver> http://www.phoboslab.org/ztype/
[15:35] <MaskedDriver> found it
[16:01] <greg-g> g'morning
[16:02] <rick_h> morning greg-g
[16:02] <brousch> Wrong!
[16:02] <brousch> https://github.com/brousch/flask-boilerplate.git
[16:02] <brousch> blah, sorry
[16:02] <brousch> That's not wrong, greg-g is wrong
[16:02] <rick_h> ruh roh, someone fired up brousch
[16:02] <brousch> (12:01:43 PM) greg-g: g'morning
[16:02] <brousch> I don't know if the Flask boilerplate is wrong yet ;)
[16:03] <greg-g> sorry for being a west coast lazy  :)
[16:03] <rick_h> :P
[16:03] <rick_h> are you 3 or 4 hours back. 9am starting time seems a bit slacker :P
[16:04] <Blazeix> 8am is for crazies. ideally that's when you should be thinking about getting up.
[16:04] <rick_h> hah
[16:05] <greg-g> 3
[16:05] <greg-g> hours
[16:05]  * brousch was awakened at 5:20 this morning
[16:05] <greg-g> 9am at the office, been on the train since 8:04
[16:05] <greg-g> I was awake at 5:30 myself :)
[16:05] <rick_h> yea, I got the carbon monoxide detector waking up...tore every fire alarm in the ohuse down doing the "WTF IS BEEPING!" scene you'd expect from a movie
[16:33] <rick_h> ugh, come on EOD
[16:34] <rick_h> widox: check out the end of http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=103983 :)
[16:36] <jrwren> noticed that django source is not 80column limited.
[16:36] <jrwren> i'm really hating python right now.
[16:36] <jrwren> I don't know if i really hate it or if it is just learning pains.
[16:44] <rick_h> django source is crap, no pep8 <3 in there
[16:44] <rick_h> and there's 10 ways to do things
[16:44] <rick_h> I've spent all morning getting told to do it another more django way, only to find that it's broken and there's a 3rd django way I can use instead, if I do all this extra crap
[16:45] <Milyardo> Clearly you should meditate more on way that is Django
[16:46] <rick_h> I'm going to throttle someone is what I'm going to do
[16:46] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: you talking about paul?
[16:46] <MaskedDriver> lol
[16:46] <rick_h> hah
[16:47] <MaskedDriver> I'll let him know, so he can avoid you at the next python convention you're both at
[16:49] <rick_h> just ask him how he feels about django static files, I can't help but think even django fans have to know this is BS
[16:51] <jrwren> so unittest doesn't follow pep8.
[16:51] <jrwren> python is a ghetto
[16:51] <rick_h> yes...it can definitely be
[16:51] <rick_h> now the question is, is unittest2 pep8?
[16:51] <jrwren> maybe I should use testify :)  its the "pythonic" test framework
[16:51] <rick_h> because theyhad a chance to fix it there since it's new and in py3
[16:51] <jrwren> good question.
[16:51] <rick_h> oh freak no
[16:52] <jrwren> testify!
[16:52] <rick_h> nope, damn java naming conventions
[16:53] <rick_h> unittest2 that is
[16:53] <jrwren> so what i've learned from this: pep8 is just a cute idea that no one, not even python core follows, and I can ignore it
[16:53] <rick_h> nooooooooo
[16:54] <rick_h> looks like only a handful of violatoins in unittest2, I can live...but ugh
[16:54] <rick_h> I should submit a damn patch
[16:54] <Milyardo> Style guides were made to be ignored in every language
[16:55] <jrwren> Milyardo: i mostly agree :)
[16:55]  * rick_h goes to lunch...this django bs is making me too damn cranky
[16:55]  * jrwren knows its not really django, but python itself that makes rick_h cranky
[16:56] <rick_h> yea, but every time I try to go to a diff lang...I come back to python
[16:56] <rick_h> says something I guess
[16:56] <MaskedDriver> you're afraid of change?
[16:56] <MaskedDriver> :D
[16:57]  * rick_h looks down at stack of books including R, erlang, haskell, perl, php, JS, mono...
[16:57] <Milyardo> It just means he hasn't gone to emacs LISP yet
[16:57] <rick_h> don't think it's that :P
[16:57] <jrwren> ruby
[16:57] <rick_h> yea, got some of that too
[16:57] <rick_h> but it's like python...just done poorly
[16:58] <MaskedDriver> don't tell that to Google
[16:58] <jrwren> right now I feel python is ruby done poorly
[16:58] <jrwren> i sure hope I come around.
[16:58] <rick_h> heh, as much as python packaging sucks, ruby world sucks more, and at least python is getting better
[16:58] <jrwren> but, prefer list comprehension to use of map just drives me mad!
[16:58] <rick_h> untitest2, virtualenv, mock in 3.3 std lib
[16:59] <snap-l> Python packaging is a lot better imh
[16:59] <snap-l> imho
[16:59] <rick_h> right
[16:59] <rick_h> but still sucks
[16:59] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: paul is fine with static files
[16:59] <snap-l> used to be the Perl packaging was the gold standard, but frankly I'd rather deal with the warts of Python anyday.
  You never serve through django, though
[16:59] <rick_h> MaskedDriver: you do in dev, then have to do magic command BS in production
[17:00] <rick_h> and there's only 15 ways to setup dev/etc routes for static...ugh
[17:00] <MaskedDriver> MaskedDriver: the way it works is, use static for testing viadjango. Once you push to prod, change the static url in the settings to point to static.domain.tld, and host that via nginx and a proxy cache
[17:00] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: ++
[17:01] <MaskedDriver> one sec.. he's telling me how he does it
[17:01] <snap-l> Even just nginx should suffice
[17:01] <rick_h> right, but then you've got to use the magic "congregate" crap to pull all the various static files up to root for nginx to serve
[17:01] <rick_h> what I don't like is all the diff in production/deploy
[17:01] <rick_h> whole codebase is littered with "if settings.debug" crap
[17:02] <rick_h> don
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> he's showing me what he does in dev and production
[17:02] <rick_h> 't do it wrong to start with and quit mucking it up
[17:02] <rick_h> yea, ask him if he's using django.contrib.staticfiles or django.conf.urls.static or django.views.static...
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> http://paste.mitechie.com/show/694/
[17:03] <snap-l> oh good grief
[17:03] <MaskedDriver> I love how I'm the official middleman between you and paul lately
[17:03] <MaskedDriver> lol
[17:03] <rick_h> :) all good
[17:03] <rick_h> anyway, lunch...
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> http://paste.mitechie.com/show/695/
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> edited
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> those are the finders at the top (at the bottom of the paste)
[17:08] <greg-g> w00t, typed my new gpg passphrase flawlessly the first time on the kinesis :)
[17:09] <snap-l> greg-g: congratulations on learning to use a keyboard. ;)
[17:14] <greg-g> man, it is tough!
[17:15] <greg-g> that dang middle finger on my left hand always messing up (as in, apparently I used it wrong for all these years)
[17:16] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: paul says you can join his channel #whube if you wanna talk to him about django stuff
[17:25] <snap-l> paul also says that he would like all payments for services rendered to be made through his agent, snap-l, in small, unmarked bills
[17:25] <snap-l> wherein they will be dispersed into the economy at large.
[17:30] <brousch> rick_h: Staticfiles are a PITA, and it seems like they change how it's done every release
[17:30] <brousch> Which is probably why you end up with outdated info
[17:38] <shakes808> rick_h_: are you running chome canary for your "bleeding edge"-ness?
[17:38] <shakes808> or a beta ver of Chrome
[17:40] <rick_h> shakes808: dev yea
[17:40] <rick_h> bleeding edge
[17:40] <rick_h> MaskedDriver: thanks
[17:40] <rick_h> snap-l: if you want my payments I have for Django, I think you might want to take some motrin first
[17:40] <rick_h> there won't be many $$ going around for my thanks :)
[18:03] <widox> rick_h: haha re thinkpad battery
[18:56] <nullspace> anyone play with voyager yet?
[18:57] <brousch> My 7 of 9 inflatable is well-worn if that's what you mean
[19:00] <nullspace> http://voyager.legtux.org/
[19:00] <nullspace> it's a uhh... blend of xfce
[19:04] <greg-g> brousch: duuuude, come on!
[19:04] <greg-g> if
[19:04] <greg-g> if this channel wasn't welcoming to non-stereotype geeks before....
[19:05] <brousch> Oh fine. My Tuvok inflatable is well worn if that's what you mean
[19:09] <Milyardo> a Voyager fan? Didn't know those existed
[19:09] <nullspace> brousch: serious what's wrong with you, if it's anything other than picard I don't want to talk to you
[19:10] <MaskedDriver> we have a guy here at work that is dead-set on learning java
[19:10] <MaskedDriver> I died a little inside
[19:10] <Milyardo> What's wrong with Java?
[19:10] <MaskedDriver> ick
[19:10] <brousch> MaskedDriver: There's no problem with wanting to learn something. It should always be encouraged
[19:10] <MaskedDriver> it's ugly as hell
[19:11] <MaskedDriver> brousch: he doesn't code at all
[19:11] <nullspace> well that's your opinion, I know plenty of people who would say the same about python and I tell them hey to each their own
[19:11] <brousch> So when he gets into it a little ways, you whip out the Python and show him how it can do the same thing in 1/4 the lines of code and without a bloated IDE
[19:12] <MaskedDriver> yeah
[19:12] <MaskedDriver> that's what I plan on doing
[19:13] <nullspace> I'd suggest not leading into the conversation bad mouthing java
[19:14] <brousch> Java is useful for Android development, if nothing else
[19:15] <rick_h> java's good to at least understand
[19:15] <rick_h> 3/4 of the design books out there are java based
[19:15] <Milyardo> I dunno, I'm a fan of AOP styled java applications
[19:15] <rick_h> and tons of useful tools are in it, lucene, jenkins, solr, hadoop, etc
[19:16] <nullspace> java doc is really nice
[19:16] <rick_h> yea, I use yuidoc for my JS which is much like it
[19:17] <MaskedDriver> I think Android development is the only reason he wants to learn it
[19:17] <rick_h> that's a good reason
[19:17] <rick_h> though I'll be saying web > native for 75% if apps forever
[19:17] <MaskedDriver> rick_h: I'm with you on that
[19:18] <MaskedDriver> I said I'd rather develop a high-functioning web app that works across the board than having to port you app to support the different systems
[19:18] <MaskedDriver> having to tweak it every 2 days when a new Android version gets pushed out
[19:19] <brousch> Send him to PyOhio where I'll (hopefully) talk about programming for Android with Python
[19:19] <MaskedDriver> which IDE do you prefer? I'm partial to eclipse, personally
[19:20] <brousch> For Java or Python?
[19:20] <MaskedDriver> java
[19:20] <brousch> I like Eclipse
[19:20] <MaskedDriver> is it bad that I don't use an ide for python?
[19:20] <brousch> Free, open source, no Oracle taint of evil
[19:20] <Milyardo> I use eclipse for Java development, though only because maven make using it convient
[19:21] <Milyardo> Speaking which, maven is a pretty awesome tool
[19:21] <MaskedDriver> Apache Maven?
[19:21] <Milyardo> Yep
[19:22] <MaskedDriver> never heard of it.. I'll look at it
[19:22] <nullspace> http://maven.apache.org/
[19:22] <Blazeix> it's basically pypi for jvm
[19:22] <MaskedDriver> gotcha
[19:23] <rick_h> I thought maven was more ant/make/etc
[19:23] <nullspace> check out the rest of the java based apache foundation projects
[19:24] <Milyardo> rick_h: that's true as well
[19:24] <Blazeix> it is a build tool too, but the killer feature is lib management
[19:24] <rick_h> ok, I just consider pypi the web app that hosts/serves built python packages
[19:25] <Milyardo> Yeah well you have maven repositories as well
[19:25] <Blazeix> rick_h: really? just the web app?
[19:25] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea
[19:25] <Blazeix> i always thought it was used to describe the entire infrastructure
[19:25] <Milyardo> that maven will go to and fetch what ever depedencies you want
[19:25] <rick_h> the rest is setuptools, etc
[19:26] <rick_h> no, that's why there's so many pypi replacements that allow for serving/etc via the pypi api
[19:29] <Milyardo> Anways with Java, it's strength lies in computational reflection, just describe a model and and you can use reflection to alot of different things with your model
[19:29] <rick_h> http://wiki.python.org/moin/CheeseShopDev
[19:32] <Blazeix> ok, the confusion is that maven hosts their own repositories
[19:32] <Blazeix> you could download maven and host your own packages if you really wanted to
[19:33] <Milyardo> Yeah if you don't define your own repo it looks for jars in Maven's repo be defualt
[19:33] <Milyardo> *default
[19:35] <Blazeix> i know languages like scala and clojure both support maven-style dependencies
[19:36] <Milyardo> That's because Clojure and Scala run in the JVM IIRC
[19:36] <Blazeix> i think they set up their own repos, and use whatever the maven protocol is
[19:36] <Blazeix> right
[19:37] <Milyardo> Yeah, I thought it was a feature in both languages to be able to use any Java library
[19:39] <Blazeix> right, but each language tends to prefer their own libraries
[19:39] <Blazeix> since java-style code would look ugly in scala and clojure
[19:43] <Milyardo> Clojure and Scala both seem to me like you're just neutering yourself by adding fuctional features to a language that can't be it's own meta language
[19:44] <Blazeix> i played with scala for a bit, and i liked it. it's still imperative, but makes it a lot easier to do functional-style dev
[19:45] <Blazeix> it was more functional than c#, but not enough more to make me love it.
[19:49] <Milyardo> There's also the model impedence between structured objects in Java and immutable state in functional languages
[19:52] <Blazeix> you can write ugly mutable code in scala, but it's frowned upon
[19:53] <Blazeix> same sort of way the set! functions in scheme exist
[19:54] <Blazeix> scala has something called 'case classes' which are immutable models
[20:00] <Milyardo> Yeah objects and functional programming just doesn't mix
[20:00] <Milyardo> *don't mix
[20:06] <Blazeix> i'd agree that object mutation doesn't mix
[20:07] <Blazeix> i'm not so sure about objects in general. there's some pretty cool stuff wrt pattern matching immutable objects in scala
[20:08] <snap-l> I think absolutes re absolutely wrong.
[20:10] <jrwren> for a java ide: Jetbrains IDEA
[20:12] <jrwren> Clojure is a full lisp, so it can be its own meta language, AFAIK
[20:12] <jrwren> CLOS would disagree with that statement :)
[20:13] <jrwren> and CLOS has been around for a while.
[20:13] <Milyardo> In CLOS all object are immutable, when working with Clojure and Scala that isn't tha case
[20:13] <jrwren> yup
[20:44] <MaskedDriver> has anyone used owncloud or sparkleshare?
[20:44] <snap-l> http://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/uyhbx/comc_first_post_here_my_shelfes_finally_filled_up/ <- I have some catching up to do.
[20:46] <rick_h> MaskedDriver: checked out sparkleshare. Just git with gnome bindings afaik
[20:46] <rick_h> snap-l: so when did the wife permit you to take over the living room?
[20:47] <snap-l> rick_h: 4th of never
[20:48] <rick_h> hah
[20:50] <snap-l> She's already talking about moving my skillfully concealed video game stuff from the living room
[20:51] <rick_h> ruh roh
[20:51] <rick_h> guess now's a good time to bring up the annex you've got planned to biuld out to the garage
[20:51] <snap-l> Yeah, apparently I don't play enough Saturn and Dreamcast games to justify the real-estate
[20:52] <rick_h> I feel a resurgance in the force
[20:52] <snap-l> rick_h: I told her we need to build a furnished bomb shelter
[21:06] <llua> @MaskedDriver, i've used owncloud for awhile, personally didn't have a need for it tho
[21:20] <greg-g> I like owncloud, but yeah, it isn't replacing anything yet
[21:21] <greg-g> I can't wait for the git-annex work to produce some fruit