[00:01] <rick_h> _stink_: http://www.amazon.com/YUI-3-Cookbook-ebook/dp/B0086I5M4W/ref=kinw_dp_ke?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2
[00:02] <rick_h> buying now to the kindle, woot
[01:41] <derekv> http://www.amazon.com/Bluecell-Repair-Replacement-Unibody-Macbook/dp/B007ZW548E/ref=sr_1_cc_2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1339724446&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=mac+pro+screws and the rape-age begins
[01:42] <derekv> but it comes with a free cable tie
[11:33] <shakes808> good morning
[11:52] <brousch> What's the favorite do what you want license? BSD?
[12:50] <brousch> Man, I forgot how much work prepping a module for release to PyPi is
[12:50] <brousch> Write up docs, get all the files in the right place
[12:51] <MaskedDriver> anybody know of any good django books they can recommend? I learn best from physical books
[12:53] <brousch> rick_h gave me all of his 2 years ago
[12:53] <brousch> I could ship them to you
[12:53] <brousch> mostly outdated
[12:55] <brousch> MaskedDriver: There aren't any new book for Django
[12:55] <MaskedDriver> brousch: where are you located? no need to ship if you're close enough
[12:55] <brousch> I'm in Grand Rapids
[12:55] <MaskedDriver> oh
[12:55] <MaskedDriver> so not that close lol
[12:56] <MaskedDriver> 2 years ago, probably not very relevant anymore
[12:57] <brousch> I don't see a single book after 2009
[12:59] <MaskedDriver> ok
[12:59] <brousch> Ah, Django 1.1 testing and debugging, but it still only covers 1.1. Current version is 1.4
[13:02] <brousch> There are 2 incomplete books you can download
[13:03] <brousch> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/Djangodesignpatterns.pdf
[13:03] <brousch> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/Djangodesignpatterns.pdf
[13:03] <brousch> CC, so you are free to download
[13:04] <brousch> Sorry, this is the second onehttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/djenofdjango.pdf
[13:05] <MaskedDriver> lol very incomplete
[13:05] <MaskedDriver> thanks
[13:06] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: If you can stomach eBooks, apress has the most up-to-date Django books
[13:06] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: ok thanks
[13:06] <MaskedDriver> ebooks are what I have my xyboard for
[13:07] <brousch> snap-l: But they still only cover Django 1.1
[13:07] <snap-l> Again, the most up-to-date books. ;)
[13:07] <brousch> 2010 is the newest
[13:07] <brousch> It's really kind of strange
[13:08] <brousch> MaskedDriver: Did you try Flask yet?
[13:08] <snap-l> brousch: That PDF of Django Design Patterns is incomplete.
[13:08] <brousch> That's what I said :P
[13:08] <snap-l> brousch: Incomplete is 5 chapters of an 11 chapter book
[13:09] <snap-l> not 5 pages, all front-matter.
[13:09] <MaskedDriver> lol
[13:09] <MaskedDriver> yeah that first one is 99% useless
[13:09] <brousch> heh
[13:10] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: You're way too kind
[13:10] <MaskedDriver> hey, it gives me an idea of what could possibly maybe be in the book
[13:10] <brousch> They didn't take my pull request for instructions to compile on Ubuntu on the design patterns book. They have probably abandoned it
[13:10] <snap-l> A license, and a table of contents
[13:10] <snap-l> and possibly a title page
[13:11] <brousch> They did take my pull request on the Djen of Django, so maybe they are still working on that one
[13:11] <snap-l> The other two nuggets of info are the Dive Into Python Book, and the Django Docs.
[13:11] <snap-l> (links to)
[13:11] <brousch> After the Django Docs, the Django TDD tutorial is really nice
[13:12] <MaskedDriver> ok thanks guys
[13:12] <brousch> Goes back through the official tutorial in a TDD manner
[13:31] <brousch> OK, so I am trying to make my setup.py, but I need a version of a package that's only on github. How do I add that to my install_requires[]?
[13:48] <jrwren> brousch: BSD or MIT are great do what you wants. CC0 is also possible if you don't even care about attribution
[14:15] <brousch> hah! got it
[14:18] <brousch> The geeker fixed a bug a year ago, and changed the verson on github, but never uploaded the fixed version to pypi
[14:22] <PainBank> heya, for those that followed that 38 Studios big layoff a couple weeks ago.... here is a podcast with a lot of info about it... about the 20-25 minute mark...
[14:22] <PainBank> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/BobbyBlackwolfShow/~3/dSXKqWEycHk/BWShow052012.mp3
[14:22] <PainBank> didn't know Curt Shilling owned that company...
[14:34] <brousch> So apparently AWS went down around midnight and Heroku too
[14:39] <derekv2> ?
[14:39] <derekv2> wow
[14:40] <Blazeix> yeah, i noticed netflix went kaput. that uses aws, right?
[14:40] <widox> heh, yeah basically the internet stopped
[14:41] <derekv2> doe heroku run on amazon?
[14:42] <brousch> derekv2: looks like it
[14:42] <jrwren> yes, they do.
[14:42] <jrwren> i'm surprised heroku isn't big enough to run on thier own systems. they could increase margins by doing so
[14:43] <derekv2> i'm sure they get different pricing
[14:48] <derekv2> also think about opening multiple datacenters in geographically diverse locations
[14:50] <jrwren> I actually doubt that they get different pricing.
[14:50] <jrwren> netflix has already startd moving away from amzn for content. see recent articles on their new CDN
[14:53] <krondor> it doesn't take too many events like that to justify a move from aws.  Didn't reddit do that a bit back too
[14:54] <jrwren> well, you are SUPPOSED to design your app to run in multiple aws datacenters, but many don't.
[14:54] <jrwren> AWS gave you fair warning.
[14:55] <jrwren> netflix likely was not entirely down, just limping, becuase I know netflix is across data centers and they have thier well known chaos monkey
[15:01] <nullspace> I've heard and read horrible preformance issues with heroku
[15:02] <jrwren> oh?
[15:02] <jrwren> link please?
[15:02] <jrwren> you SHOULD be able to just throw more dynos at it, but that is only if your app was written to scale that way.
[15:03] <nullspace> http://justcramer.com/2012/06/02/the-cloud-is-not-for-you/
[15:07] <krondor> well and that rebutal to that; http://rdegges.com/heroku-isnt-for-idiots
[15:09] <jrwren> nullspace: ty, excellent read.
[15:15] <nullspace> I'm confused by the App cloud business model, they all seem way more expensive (except aws) then just a VPS
[15:16] <jrwren> yes, they are.
[15:16] <jrwren> but they are way more convenient.
[15:16] <jrwren> a whole lot of web devs don't know how to admin any server, let alone a linux server
[15:16] <nullspace> if you have a userbase already to go then I can see that
[15:16] <jrwren> the apeal of git push heroku to them is huge
[15:18] <nullspace> I can see that
[15:18] <Milyardo> +1 to anything that encourages those kinds of people to use revision control in my book
[15:18] <nullspace> though it only makes sense if they already have a product and are making profit of it
[15:19] <jrwren> you get 1 free dyno at heroku, so it makes sense if you have no profit
[15:20] <krondor> I guess reddit dropped EBS, not sure on AWS in general.  http://blog.reddit.com/2012/01/january-2012-state-of-servers.html
[15:21] <jrwren> EBS should be used sparingly and cautiously when designing to run on AWS
[15:22] <jrwren> reddit, 240 servers. that is NUTS
[15:22] <jrwren> compare with stackoverflow.
[15:22] <jrwren> oh, well... i guess SO is a bit smaller, but not THAT much smaller.
[15:23] <jrwren> in fact, 240 AWS instances is definitely around the point I'd start looking to selfhost
[15:23] <jrwren> actually, far far before that.
[15:25] <nullspace> time to buy a datacenter in a shipping crate
[15:31] <krondor> google adplanner shows reddit as much larger than stackexchange, but I think that might not be fair comparison
[15:31] <krondor> have to aggregate the stack sites
[15:33] <krondor> reddit 2.7b page views/month, se+askubuntu+stackoverflow 260.7m page views/month
[15:35] <krondor> still stackexchange was what 21-24 servers in 2011 and they're not 10 times smaller than reddit...
[15:41] <jrwren> yes, that was my point.
[15:41] <jrwren> and they were 4 servers to start, which is a great place to start. they scaled to damned huge on those 4 servers.
[15:42] <krondor> yep, with thought and planning its impressive what you can do.  I wouldn't say reddit was a good example of an optimized site initially (they're getting much better recently though)
[15:45] <rick_h> yea, reddit's been understaffed for years
[15:45] <rick_h> it's going to be behind the eight ball
[15:46] <rick_h> SE isn't that much smaller than reddit because of all those windows machines :P
[15:46] <jrwren> ya know that point where you know the next test you need to write, but you really don't want to write it... been there all morning.
[15:46] <jrwren> rick_h: if only that were true. its actually teh opposite.
[15:47] <rick_h> nullspace: the advantage with the app hosts is that they admin and provide tools/apis for you to do sysadmin at the click of a button
[15:47] <rick_h> I can scale my heroku app up to 5 instances in 2min
[15:47] <rick_h> while scaling up 5 new vps's isn't happening for a bit
[15:48] <rick_h> and the heroku model of supplying add-ins means I don't have to setup a vps for my app, one for postgres, setup memcache, scale up my memcache server, move it to it's own vps, etc
[15:49] <rick_h> jrwren: yuck on the test, and :P on the windows jab
[15:49] <rick_h> after all, you're not running ec2 small instances for that stuff
[15:49] <jrwren> its not windows v. linux though. its app designed one way v. app designed another.
[15:49] <rick_h> yea, but it is rare for big web things like that to be the windows stack. <3 SE and all that
[15:50] <jrwren> indeed.
[15:50] <rick_h> but I've got no pity for any large site that's not across multiple AV zones today
[15:50] <rick_h> it's not like this lesson didn't come up for everyone last year
[15:50] <jrwren> i'd love to see them move to linux and Mono :)
[15:50] <rick_h> suck it up, do it right
[15:50] <jrwren> AV?
[15:51] <rick_h> sorry, availability zone, AZ my bad
[15:51] <jrwren> ah, yes, agreed
[15:52] <rick_h> sorry, catching up on backscroll
[15:52] <brousch> I need my module to work as 'import android' but I don't really want it to be installed with 'pip install android'. Any idea how I configure that?
[15:52] <rick_h> been putting the pooch in the hospital and all that, freaking mess of a night/day
[15:52] <rick_h> brousch: change the name in setup.py to be android
[15:53] <rick_h> but then don't make that the module
[15:53] <rick_h> and also...don't do that. I HATE that
[15:53] <brousch> Well it has to be import android to do what it needs to do
[15:53] <rick_h> ugh, that sucks
[15:54] <brousch> in SL4A you 'import android' to get access to all the Android API stuff
[15:54] <brousch> I'm simulating that on the desktop, so I need the same module name
[15:54] <rick_h> gotcha
[15:54] <brousch> But it's too generic of a name for pypi
[15:54] <rick_h> right, you can just change the package name in your setup.py to mock-android or something
[15:55] <brousch> the first 'name'?
[15:55] <rick_h> rgr
[15:55] <brousch> eh?
[15:55] <rick_h> roger
[15:57] <MaskedDriver> 10-4 over and out
[15:58] <brousch> rick_h: You are my hero
[16:01] <rick_h> brousch: :) I trey
[16:01] <rick_h> try, damn I can't type on no sleep
[16:01] <brousch> Something wrong with your dog?
[16:02] <rick_h> yea, she's had some kind of bad reaction to meds or something
[16:02] <rick_h> was up the last two nights with puppy messes and today she's being hospitalized
[16:03] <rick_h> now instead of sleep, I need to take this rented steam cleaner and pray some of it comes out of the carpets else break out the credit card for new floors
[16:03] <brousch> Oh man, I hope she's OK
[16:04] <rick_h> yea, they're thinking just bad reactions to the pain meds they sent her in on, but now she's all dehyrated and a mess, so they're keeping her for the day
[16:08] <brousch> All right, My second thing on PyPi http://pypi.python.org/pypi/sl4a_pydroid_mock_api/
[16:08] <MaskedDriver> gratz brousch
[16:09] <rick_h> awesome man
[16:15] <jrwren> my names not shirley and dont' call me roger.
[16:42] <snap-l> And this afternoon, it's a cement cutter in front of the house. ;)
[16:43] <jrwren> having an office is nice.
[16:43] <jrwren> i was on the couch all morning.
[16:43] <snap-l> Well, it's for our driveway, so it's expected
[16:43] <jrwren> went to desk to eat, charge bat and work, then back to couch
[16:57] <snap-l> http://inversephase.bandcamp.com/album/pretty-eight-machine
[17:26] <jrwren> oh shit, I'm lame. I just wrote method missing in python *sigh*
[17:36] <rick_h> implemented __call__ ?
[17:36] <brousch> method missing?
[17:37] <rick_h> ruby-ism
[17:37] <rick_h> http://rubylearning.com/satishtalim/ruby_method_missing.html
[17:37] <brousch> string him up!
[17:39] <nullspace> what's his char_set encoding?
[17:39] <nullspace> up = him.ToString()
[17:58] <jrwren> actually, __getattr__
[17:59] <jrwren> __call__ just makes an instance callable
[18:29] <jrwren> whoa, cool think I learned about vim: / then ctrl-p&n to toggle through previous searches, and it navigates me through them.
[18:36] <rick_h> jrwren: ah, thought you were more going after methods vs attrib access
[18:38] <jrwren> turns out method call IS attr access that just happens to be callable and then it is called ;)
[18:39] <rick_h> lol, wheeee
[18:41] <jrwren> yeah.
[18:41] <jrwren> at first i thought i was being hacktastic, but i googled and found writing saying, YUP that is how it works.
[18:41] <jrwren> that is python
[18:41] <jrwren> YAY
[18:46] <rick_h> yea, there are cool hooks for doing nice things. Seems hacky, but lets you implement the API you want to write
[18:47] <rick_h> just wait until you start wanting to do some __new__ and metaclass stuff to make the code you write look like you want
[18:47] <jrwren> yup.
[18:47] <jrwren> i've read up, i think i'm capable of doing it if I need to.
[18:48] <MaskedDriver> brousch: yeah.. using old docs is kind of annoying. Simple things like "maxlength" getting renamed to "max_length" can be a pain.
[18:56] <greg-g> man, typing on any other keyboard now is annoying. love the kinesis
[18:59] <rick_h> greg-g: :)
[19:00] <rick_h> greg-g: yea, the whole middle section for thumb operation is really sweet
[19:01] <jrwren> what kb is this?
[19:03] <rick_h> kenisis http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
[19:04] <rick_h> woot! two spdy articles on the front page of HN today
[19:29] <derekv2> kinesis needs to come up with something new
[19:29] <derekv2> I want them to make a countoured / split / bluetooth
[19:30] <derekv2> they could have added a few extra buttons for programming
[19:30] <greg-g> it has macros
[19:30] <greg-g> and bluetooth? bah
[19:30] <greg-g> ;)
[19:32] <derekv2> i want someone to make a keyboard that works off my fingers directly, like initial or something.  or video
[19:32] <derekv2> but just so that i twitch my fingers and letters happen
[19:34] <derekv2> so that I'm not needing to carry around a kb thats a lot bulkier than my computer
[19:34] <derekv2> or soon i'll just be stuffing the computer inside the kb and whoof! back we go 25 years
[19:36] <derekv2> and yea it'd need a usb option
[19:46] <snap-l> "Skype is written in the Qt framework which is multiplatform so this isn't very surprising. Microsoft litterally just has to write the code once and compile it on each OS and it works.
[19:47] <snap-l> -- idiot on the internet award, 2012-06-15
[19:49] <greg-g> always question a sentence that has the word "literally" in it
[19:49] <snap-l> litterally
[19:49] <greg-g> derekv2: actually, I was just thinking that I should shove a rasperry pi in this kinesi :)
[19:50] <snap-l> as in "my cats litterally used their box"
[19:50] <greg-g> snap-l: heh, more so then
[20:51] <snap-l> http://io9.com/5918453/cooked-squid-inseminates-womans-tongue-cheek-and-gums
[20:51] <jrwren> wtf?
[20:52] <snap-l> Also a reminder that it's Free RPG day tomorrow
[20:53] <snap-l> go get some loot, and make friends with your local gaming store.
[21:03] <jrwren> does playing d3 all morning count?
[21:06] <snap-l> jrwren: not really
[21:06] <snap-l> but that just means more stuff for everyone else.
[21:22] <jrwren> omfg, I think I'm python idiot nub
[21:23] <jrwren> GAH!!! I FAIL AT LIFE!
[21:24] <rick_h> jrwren: what did you do now?
[21:25] <jrwren> i thought class A(object):\n  m=[]
[21:25] <jrwren> m was an instance member, instead of a class member
[21:25] <rick_h> ah
[21:26] <rick_h> nope, because you can do A.m without ever creating an instance
[21:26] <jrwren> yup.
[21:26] <jrwren> i was just hoping for the shorthand syntax outside of init
[21:26] <jrwren> guess there isn't one
[21:26] <rick_h> yea, also watch out for the def method(self, books=[])
[21:26] <jrwren> yeah, already doing that reasonably well.
[21:26] <rick_h> that catches new devs as well
[21:26] <jrwren> plus, pylint!
[21:27] <rick_h> oh, does pylint warn on using mutable defaults?
[21:27] <jrwren> I believe so.
[21:27] <rick_h> ah, good stuff then
[21:27] <jrwren> let me see :)
[21:27] <rick_h> yea, the 'shortcut' for the init is to just do kwargs
[21:27] <jrwren> W0102:432,0:main: Dangerous default value [] as argument
[21:27] <rick_h> but figure if you were goint to do a bunch of m=[], doing __init__(self): m=[] is only one line more
[21:28] <rick_h> ah, nice. This is why I love lint tools
[21:28] <jrwren> ditto
[21:30] <rick_h> but cool, check out @classmethod and your original idea with m = [] and you can do some cool stuff with constant-like and static like behaviors