/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/17/#ubuntu-uk.txt

=== rastamouse is now known as nothingspecial
=== webpigeo1 is now known as webpigeon
popeyMorning08:19
dwatkinshiya08:28
Myrttimur08:29
brobostigongood morning everyone.09:39
* awilkins stabs Eclipse in the face10:06
awilkinsWE HATES IT *hsssss*10:07
awilkinsIs there a way to remove things from the Unity global menu blacklist?10:12
awilkinsAha, cunning : http://askubuntu.com/questions/69815/can-i-make-eclipse-use-the-ubuntu-global-menu10:19
dogmatic69some pretty interesting stats in the disk utility11:52
dogmatic69power cycles: 637111:53
dogmatic692.9 years total on time11:53
=== jason_ is now known as Jasieb
jacobw\o/ statistics12:09
MartijnVdSeverything is better with statistics12:09
dogmatic69Was looking for drives to put in my nas, decided against that one12:09
jacobwi'm trying to remember the name of the informatics guy who starting keeping statistics on everything quantifiable in his life after losing his father12:13
jacobwhis graphics are amazing12:13
jacobwfeltron.com12:16
MartijnVdSjacobw: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920000617.do + the books of Edward Tufte12:19
MartijnVdShttp://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi12:19
MartijnVdShttp://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_be12:20
* jacobw will guy12:45
jacobws/guy/buy12:45
MartijnVdSuh oh12:45
MartijnVdSdon't blame me if you end up begging in the streets :P12:45
MartijnVdS"But.. MartijnVdS told me to buy all those books!"12:45
jacobw:)12:47
Lukan27If I want to show alot of terminal data where do I put it? Can't remember the name12:56
MartijnVdSLukan27: less?12:56
MartijnVdSLukan27: command --with-long-output | less12:56
MartijnVdSLukan27: command --with-long-output > some_file12:57
MartijnVdSLukan27: oh wait, to show us?12:57
MartijnVdS!pastebin | Lukan2712:57
lubotu3Lukan27: For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.12:57
Lukan27Nono, so other people on this chat can see it12:57
Lukan27Pastebin, exactly!12:57
Lukan27Thanks12:57
dogmatic69lol14:49
dogmatic69anyone watching tennis?14:49
brobostigonno.14:49
dogmatic69my gf is, its some final. The one guy just kicked some side line ref or something. GAME OVER14:50
dogmatic69Crowd is not happy, paying for a final and watching for only an hour.14:51
brobostigonunderstandable. yes.14:51
jacobwbloop15:39
* lazarus_ wonders if there is a way to remove android(or dualbot) and put ubuntu or somthing like that on my tablet 15:45
penguin42lazarus_: There are frigs - but generally the problem is that the kernels are special builds for each tablet and the graphics drivers are very random15:47
penguin42lazarus_: Most userspace stuff would work15:48
* lazarus_ i just dont like android all that much 15:51
brobostigonpickup the webos source, and play, :)15:52
jacobwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJ2yWvGnkI15:53
jacobwlololol15:53
lazarus_i have an acer icoina tab a20015:54
brobostigonouch, the google+ app, is twice as big as the FB one. 14MB, and 29MB.15:54
brobostigonwhats the opinion of tweetdeck compared to seesmic on android. ?16:16
mgdmbrobostigon: never used seesmic, but I liked Tweetdeck16:28
brobostigonmgdm: ok, thank you.16:29
mgdmI see SSDs are now approaching 50p/gig (at least a quick glance on amazon suggests so)17:56
popeygood news17:58
mgdmindeed, I might well be tempted to enliven this machine a bit17:58
mgdmNot right now, though, just bought tickets for Ross Noble :-)17:58
popeyoh nice18:03
MartijnVdShmm18:03
MartijnVdSmgdm: no-brand SSD or proper ones?18:04
mgdmMartijnVdS: Crucial and Samsung on Amazon both seemed to be approximately the same price18:04
mgdmI was being highly unscientific about it18:04
MartijnVdSmgdm: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/674/solid-state-drives.html#filter:q1bKL0pJLXLLTM1JUbJSKi5ITc5My0xOLMnMz1PSgUgG5xeVAOUSi5PhIkBlnkD1JmYmtQA :)18:04
mgdmgot one that gives me the info in real money? :)18:05
MartijnVdSmgdm: ask google -- 0.63 EUR in GBP18:05
mgdmI was kidding :)18:05
mgdmI'll have another look in a couple of months18:05
MartijnVdSThough "Silicon Power"18:05
mgdmdon't need one right now18:05
MartijnVdSWho trusts their data to that18:06
MartijnVdSwhoa, a 512GB from Crucial that's cheapish18:07
=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan
penguin42how cheapish?18:37
MartijnVdS361 european money units18:38
MartijnVdSthat's about 290 GBP or 131.5kg18:39
penguin42MartijnVdS: Are those the european money units before the results of the greek vote?18:39
MartijnVdSpenguin42: current ones18:41
penguin42:-)18:41
penguin42actually, it's not bad - it's almost 2 GB per GBP18:41
penguin42MartijnVdS: Are they SATA-2 or 3?18:42
MartijnVdSpenguin42: CT512M4SSD1 Slim18:42
MartijnVdSSATA-60018:42
popeyooooo 512GB18:44
popey7mm!18:44
popeytempting18:44
penguin42MartijnVdS: Interesting, the UK crucial site is listing the CT512M4SSD218:45
penguin42272 UK+VAT - so 327 inc18:46
MartijnVdShmm18:47
MartijnVdSthe thing I linked to is a big price-comparison site18:48
MartijnVdSfor computer parts18:48
MartijnVdSso the price I listed is the cheapest it could find for me18:48
penguin42the 256GB tempts me more - I don't use 512GB18:50
MartijnVdSI have lots of music as FLAC18:51
MartijnVdSand a bunch of RAW photos18:51
* penguin42 has 13GB of music, on a USB stick18:53
mgdmif I use the 'flexible method' of creating a USB installer from the wiki, it fails18:55
mgdmis unetbootin worth a go?18:55
penguin42mgdm: These days you should just be able to dd the iso image onto the USB stick18:55
mgdm(it fails saying it cannot find various files from the CD image)18:55
mgdmHmm, didn't think of that18:56
penguin42mgdm: I think it started working with 11.10; certainly works for 12.0418:57
mgdmcool18:57
mgdmI'll give that a blast; thanks18:58
directhexkingston are doing 128gb ssds for £65 at the mo19:05
directhexif anyone cares19:05
directhexhttp://www.scan.co.uk/shops/kingston/hyperx3k19:05
popey/dev/sda1            216G  160G   45G  79% /19:06
popeyI'd keep all my photos on my laptop if I had a 512GB one19:07
ali1234/dev/sda1        80G   30G   47G  39% /19:07
AlanBell/dev/sda1       216G  125G   80G  61% /19:08
ali1234how does a SSD increase your FPS?19:08
directhexali1234: it reduces stutter, which can help in some benchmarks19:18
ali1234what is stutter? like loading textures?19:23
MartijnVdSloading anything of disk too slowly19:24
MartijnVdSoff*19:24
MartijnVdSmodels, textures, ...19:24
mgdmright, well, that works19:28
directhexali1234: yeah, or other stuff like MartijnVdS says19:54
directhexali1234: it's very uncommon for a modern engine to load 100% of potentially used resources to RAM, games are designed for use on low-ram consoles so spool resources as needed from fixed disk. and spinning rust can cause stutter in many cases19:55
MartijnVdShmm19:55
MartijnVdSwhat woudl happen if I put an SSD in my PS319:55
ali1234i suppose that's a problem if your game is several dvds19:56
directhexMartijnVdS: depends on the game. there are benchmarks out there19:56
directhexMartijnVdS: load times can drop from 0-50% if memory serves19:56
ali1234directhex: have you played lone survivor? it's terrible. 2d game with like 256x160 graphics, and it needs a 3GHz processor to run full speed19:57
MartijnVdSnoice19:57
mgdmdoes tasksel not exist any more?19:57
mgdm(at least by default)19:58
directhexali1234: no, i didn't try that one yet19:58
directhexali1234: if it's flash, then, well, flash.19:58
directhexali1234: nothing makes my wife's pc groan like farmville19:58
ali1234can't those mono guys rewrite the flash runtime or something, like thewy did with android?19:58
ali1234actually there was that flash to html5 thing the other day, i should check that out19:59
mgdmheh19:59
mgdmErr, where's the font size control gone?20:02
ali1234gnome-tweak-tool20:02
mgdm"tool to adjust advanced configuration settings for GNOME"20:03
mgdmso font sizes are now 'advanced'20:03
ali1234yes20:03
directhexmgdm: yes!20:03
mgdmthat's bonkers20:03
ali1234didn't you get the memo?20:03
ali1234the user is always wrong20:03
directhexwhy adjust them, when they're right by default?20:04
ali1234you should be thankful anyone even bothered to make gnome-tweak-tool, clearly advanced users should be using dconf directly20:04
ali1234because advanced users love futzing around on the command line20:04
* AlanBell wonders what exactly gnome-tweak-tool tweaks20:04
mgdmthese ones are wrong20:04
mgdmalso installing gnome-tweak-tool wants to bring in GNOME shell20:05
directhexmgdm: no, your eyes are wrong. gnome is right!20:05
* directhex wibbles20:05
AlanBellwow, that actually works really well20:05
ali1234it's basically the old "appearance" dialog that was removed20:06
AlanBelloh I like text scaling factor 0.520:06
mgdmthere's a 'font size' thing in the Universal Access bit20:06
mgdmhowever, I've installed MyUnity anyway20:07
ali1234that text scaling slider is horribly, horribly broken20:07
AlanBellthe accessibility tool text sizing is nowhere near as wide in scope as the gnome-tweak-tool slider20:08
ali1234because changing the font size resizes in real time, the slider moves under you20:08
AlanBellyeah, that is a bit daft20:08
ali1234so if you just hold down the mouse it goes into a loop of resizing20:08
mgdmAlanBell: it was close enough, for the size, but wouldn't let me change the monospace font20:08
ali1234then you let go and get a random size20:08
ali1234i will report that actually20:09
mgdmI might just reinstall cinammon :-)20:11
ali1234no, install gnome-fallback20:13
ali1234it's much better than cinammon20:13
ali1234you can put panels on any monitor20:13
ali1234you can move stuff around on them20:13
ali1234you can put them anywhere you want20:13
mgdmooo20:17
ali1234from now on i'm audioswapping all my bug videos with "entry of the gladiators"20:21
ali1234starting with this one20:21
ali1234https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-tweak-tool/+bug/101440320:24
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 1014403 in gnome-tweak-tool (Ubuntu) "gnome-tweak-tool font scaling slider is extremely difficult to use." [Undecided,New]20:24
popeyi hear nothing20:25
ali1234audio swap takes a while to kick in apparently20:26
popeyah20:26
popeyi would expect the response you get is "file it upstream"20:26
ali1234yeah20:26
ali1234i will do that also20:26
popeycool20:26
ali1234anyone know where upstream for this is?20:26
popeygnome bugzilla20:26
ali1234i like to use launchpad as a staging point for my bugs, because it is so much better than the junk everyone else uses20:27
AlanBellif someone were to attempt to add such a slider into some bit of unity, where should it go and how should it not fail like that?20:27
ali1234you can make it not fail by not updating the font size until the user releases the mouse button20:28
ali1234which is certainly possible with Qt20:28
popeyor not make it a slider20:28
ali1234i dunno about Gtk though20:28
popeyhttps://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-control-center20:28
ali1234(that setting in Qt works for all widgets btw)20:28
ali1234so also spinners etc, can be configured to update in real time, or not until the user stops editing them20:29
ali1234for example, text entry where user types a search query20:29
kane_hello20:29
ali1234you know what's annoying? text search where you type "s" and then wait 5 minutes while it lists everything beginning with "s", before you are able to type the next letter of your query20:29
kane_does anyone no how to get gconf editor20:30
AlanBellkane_: dconf-editor is the new hotness20:30
ali1234sudo apt-get install gconf-editor20:30
ali1234popey: tweak tool is specifically not part of control center, no?20:31
ali1234it has it's own product20:31
kane_thanks20:31
AlanBellkane_: some things are tweaked with dconf-editor now, which is in the dconf-tools package20:32
kane_yh i just had to change the minimize close and maximize button layout20:34
kane_is there a way to move the top bar to the bottom ?20:35
ali1234no20:36
AlanBellit is probably going to be easier for you to go with the flow and learn to enjoy it at the top20:36
ali1234no, you should install gnome-fallback and use that instead, you can do whatever you want then20:36
ali1234including move the panels20:37
AlanBellor that20:37
kane_sorry im used to windows im trying lol20:37
kane_is there a way to change the sensativity of the left bar20:37
AlanBellcool, unity is a bit different, you do get used to it20:37
AlanBellsensitivity in what way?20:38
kane_like it takes longer to come up20:38
kane_because it comes up when i try and close a internet20:38
AlanBellargh, don't close the internet /o\20:38
AlanBell:)20:39
kane_what20:39
ali1234internet's closed20:39
AlanBellthere is a setting called launcher reveal pressure and one called laucher reveal edge responsiveness20:39
AlanBellin compiz-config-settingsmanager20:39
ali1234i think that can be set from the normal control panel now20:40
AlanBellI don't have my launcher hiding so I don't know how well they work20:40
mgdmOoooh20:40
mgdmthis is the first Linux release to support middle button scroll with the trackpoint properly out of the box20:40
ali1234i don't have a launcher at all :)20:40
mgdmthough given that I use Macs most of the time these days it feels backwards20:40
AlanBellali1234: you can set it to autohide or not from the standard control panel, but tweaking the sensitivity isn't in that20:42
kane_im confused20:43
ali1234join the club20:43
ahayzenHi, I'm using the mini.iso to install via a network install .... i have just selected linux-generic as the kernel and it is asking me for the drivers to include in the initrd should it be 'generic - include all available drivers' or 'targeted - only include drivers needed for this system'.... are there any disadvantages of using 'targeted' ?20:43
AlanBellkane_: which bit?20:43
kane_every bit :S20:44
ali1234ahayzen: yes. if you install new hardware you won't have drivers for it20:44
ahayzenso which should i select?20:45
ali1234well if you targeted20:45
ali1234you can always rebuild it later20:45
ahayzeni had to use the mini.iso as I am installing on a system without pae20:45
ahayzenso what doesn't it include?20:45
ali1234any drivers for any hardware not currntly plugged in to your computer20:45
AlanBellkane_: so, the normal systems settings tool shows a bunch of things that can be tweaked, but not all of the little detailed ones, just high level stuff20:45
ali1234note that initrd only really needs the drivers for devices you intend to boot from20:46
ahayzenali1234: ok... so what does the standard Ubuntu install do?20:46
kane_thanks20:46
ali1234no idea20:46
ali1234prbably generic20:46
ahayzenhow much bigger is generic than targeted?20:46
ali1234again i have no idea20:46
AlanBellkane_: there is a more detailed tool (several of them actually) to tweak different settings, some of which are a bit hidden for a good reason (like you can mess up your system)20:46
ahayzenlol20:46
ali1234seriously, install gnome-fallback, have a nice working system and stop worrying about it20:48
AlanBellahayzen: I would go for generic unless you are trying to do something really specific like a thin client with hardly any space20:48
ahayzenali1234: Ok thanks for your advice, i think i'm go for generic20:48
ahayzenalanbell: Thanks :)20:48
AlanBellali1234: E: Unable to locate package gnome-fallback20:48
ali1234it's called gnome-session-fallback20:48
ali1234be sure to use it in 2D mode though, because compiz 0.9 is really broken20:49
ali1234you can emable compositing in metacity though, that works fine20:49
AlanBellali1234: gnome-session-fallback seems to work fine in quantal with compiz in virtualbox20:52
ali1234are you sure compiz is really running and it didn't just fall back to metacity?20:52
ali1234also are you sure it's really working fine? show a screenshot :)20:53
AlanBellwill do in a sec20:53
AlanBelljust installing ccsm to turn on more bling20:53
AlanBellyay, it zooms the panels as they are not drawn with that nux kookiness20:55
mgdmhmm, Chrome doesn't show up in the launcher, nor in alt-tab20:56
=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan
AlanBellhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/screenshots/Screenshot%20from%202012-06-17%2021:57:29.png20:58
ali1234yeah, that's better than it does in precise20:58
ali1234i notice the workspace switcher is messed up. does it work?20:59
ali1234i mean the widget in the bottom right20:59
AlanBellworks fine20:59
ali1234can you make it a 1 row 4 column layout?20:59
AlanBellit isn't messed up20:59
AlanBellheh, thought my VM had frozen up, but I was clicking on my screenshot21:00
ali1234lol21:00
ali1234that's the trouble with giving every window zero pixel borders21:01
AlanBellyeah, 4x1 works fine, the workspace switcher looks like it used to do21:01
* AlanBell tries cube21:01
ali1234and when you click, it works?21:01
ali1234in precise if you do this, change the switcher to 4x1, and then click anther workspace, it takes you to a weird n-dimensional desktop that is like a parallel universe21:02
AlanBellyeah, clicking worked21:02
AlanBelland now clicking rotates the cube21:02
ali1234your panels disappear and to get them back you have to go to screen 1 of the parallel universe desktop and click on where they should be, then they come back21:02
ali1234this is due to gnome and unity-compiz having different ideas about virtual desktops, and the widget tries to switch between the two modes, but doesn't quite manage it21:03
AlanBellI am struggling to find fault with this21:03
ali1234yeah21:03
ali1234seems like all the bugs have been fixed21:03
ali1234i can't really think of any others except the overall slowness of compiz 0.9 compared to 0.821:04
ali1234but that's hard to measure in a VM21:04
AlanBellmost of that is because the mouse position polling is set to 40ms21:04
AlanBellset it to 1 and it all goes silky smooth21:05
ali1234no it isn't21:05
ali1234that makes no difference to eg. fullscreen games21:05
ali1234with compiz 0.9 everything is capped at 30fps on my system21:05
AlanBelloh, I don't play games21:06
AlanBellI might go try get my patch to the mouse polling accepted21:06
AlanBellbug 93078321:07
lubotu3Launchpad bug 930783 in compiz-plugins-main (Ubuntu) "mouse poll is jerky at the default setting of 40ms" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/93078321:07
mgdmis there a Twitter client or Linux worth talking about, or am I going back to tweetdeck?21:07
TheFredhello21:07
kane_hi21:07
TheFredHi kane_21:07
AlanBellmgdm: polly works fine for me21:08
ali1234mgdm: isn't that what gwibber does?21:08
ubuntuuk-planet[Jono Bacon] My First Fathers Day - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/06/17/my-first-fathers-day/21:08
mgdmali1234: gwibber is a terrible joke21:08
ali1234but... it's the default program!21:09
TheFredjust wondering if anyone knows how to turn a .py file that needs htop into a .deb file?21:09
ali1234that means it is the best one21:09
ali1234TheFred: why does it need htop?21:10
ali1234i hope you're not screenscraping...21:10
TheFredit uses popen to fetch system details21:10
TheFrednope - its not screensraping21:10
ali1234yes it is :(21:11
TheFredreally?21:11
ali1234you're parsing the output of htop21:11
ali1234just get the information directly21:11
TheFredi though sreen sraping was html realted?21:11
ali1234same thing21:11
TheFredaha21:11
ali1234and same problems21:11
ali1234output of htop changes, your program breaks21:12
TheFredno problems with it - it works really well21:12
ali1234what information are you looking for?21:12
ali1234there's almost certainly a more compatible way to get it21:12
TheFredonly thing is now i want to package it into a .deb file21:12
ali1234packaging is a black art that few understand21:13
TheFredwell then, i guess i want to learn a black art :)21:13
* TheFred goes back to google search21:13
AlanBellTheFred: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide21:20
AlanBellhttp://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/ even21:20
TheFredthanks AlanBell, thats what im re-reading :)21:20
ali1234AlanBell: did that guide help you at all?21:21
AlanBellali1234: well it is kind of like the total perspective vortex21:22
ali1234it's extremely bzr-centric too21:22
TheFrederm, well, yes and no.... its the control file section that has me slightly confused: the correct syntax for dependancies in particular21:22
AlanBellif you read that, and the Debian manual it really gives you a sense of how small and insignificant the sum total of your knowledge really is21:23
ali1234heh21:23
ali1234maybe i'm arrogant but it just made me think "this is pointlessly complicated"21:23
mgdmthat was my experience, too; on the other hand, I'm awfully lazy21:23
TheFredAlanBell, yup,plus im honing my android-app skills21:23
mgdmAndroid apps are child's play compared to debian packaging :P21:24
AlanBellyeah, you kind of need to know about 20 years of evolution of packaging systems to know which one to use on which package21:24
TheFredAlanBell, Im going for the 'try it on my system - and it it works then ask others to test it' approach21:25
TheFrednamely family an friends21:25
=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan
ali1234if i have a standard "make; make install" package, why isn't there a tool that can do it all for me?21:25
AlanBellI think there is21:25
TheFredthe short answer is that there is21:25
ali1234similarly, if i have a "python setup.py install" based source, why isn't there a tool that can do it automatically?21:25
AlanBellpkgme should do that, amongst others21:26
=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan
ali1234note: this tool should not rely on the source being in any particular VCS21:26
ali1234there's simply no reason for that21:26
AlanBellwhat I am struggling with is a package with a single executable python script in it21:26
TheFredheh +1 AlanBell21:26
ali1234well, doing a setup.py for that shoud be trivial21:26
AlanBelllaney helped sort it out in some mysterious way, I must get my GPG keys sorted so I can upload it21:26
ali1234the stupid part is i can explain to a 100% total noob how to download and install my software from source, but i can't comprehend how to make a package21:27
TheFredAlanBell, ye, it took a while to go through the tutorials and get my GPG and SSH keys uploaded21:27
ali1234why is packaging so much harder than installing from source?21:27
TheFredbecause you have to put together the program + install instructins to make it easy to install21:28
ali1234as i just said, i can do that21:28
ali1234that isn't the hard part of packaging21:28
TheFredoh21:28
TheFredwhat is, for you?21:29
ali1234making the package21:29
TheFredi dont understand, you can make the control file, but have fails with the actual packaging method>?21:30
ali1234writing the control file, yes, that's the hard part21:30
TheFredaha, that i do understand :)21:30
ali1234also writing the rules file and the changelog file21:30
ali1234and then putting them into a directory21:31
ali1234and then figuring out where to put the source so that it actually works21:31
ali1234and then how to turn all that into a .deb21:31
TheFredyup, its try and try again until its nailed into our memory :)21:31
ali1234and then once you've done that, how to update it21:32
TheFredthats a good point, 1 not considered yet21:32
TheFredupdates that it...21:32
TheFredat this point i think that the version number dictates which package is seen as newer, so as long as the user gets the 0.2.0 .deb (newest) then thats all there is to it21:33
TheFredI expect i have a lot more to digest :(21:33
* AlanBell runs sudo virtualbox21:34
ali1234another problem is packages have a load of fields that i don't understand what i'm supposed to put in them21:34
TheFredthats a great tip AlanBell21:34
AlanBellTheFred: not generally adviseable! I am booting my old hard disk attached in a USB enclosure as the root drive of a VM21:35
TheFredwhoa - take care there!21:35
AlanBellthere is probably a way to let a non-root user have that much access to the device, but this works21:36
AlanBellI had encrypted home directory on it so I can only get stuff off it by booting it21:36
TheFredfor a moment i thought you meant to imply that i use a vm as a sterile environment to work on packaging21:37
TheFredaha21:37
ali1234"debian/compat This file should contain the number 8. This is a magic number. Do not put any other number in there. "21:37
ali1234whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?21:38
AlanBellTheFred: no (but that is a reasonable idea) I am trying to get back my GPG keys21:38
TheFredali1234, where did you read that? I've not seen that yet... its not some april fools thing is it?21:39
ali1234http://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging21:39
TheFredAlanBell, the old forgotten passphrase thing eh?21:39
TheFredali1234, wow - so it does, but thats the first time i've read that when searching about this21:40
TheFredali1234, ah - thats ONLY for debhelper tho21:41
AlanBellthis is the hard thing, do magic thing "foo" for easy fully automated packaging tool "bar"21:43
AlanBelland there are so many packaging tools21:43
ali1234yeah21:43
ali1234and just look at quickly21:44
ali1234it will make a package for you in one step21:44
AlanBellbut luckily we now have pkgme as one universal packaging tool that covers everyones use cases21:44
AlanBellhttp://xkcd.com/927/21:44
ali1234unfortunately you have to use bzr, and your program has to have a main window with a file menu and a help screen and etc21:44
TheFredhmmm, according to Google there are no pkgme tutorials....21:47
TheFredWith the recent push of Quickly, i'd expect there to be more info about using quickly to build packages NOT build using Glade...21:49
ali1234quickly uses templates21:49
ali1234in theory it can make any type of package21:49
ali1234however in practice making templates is even more complicated than making debs21:49
ali1234eg http://www.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3a-Inside-Quickly-part-621:50
ali1234if you can understand any of that you're smarter than i am21:51
TheFredali1234, thanks for the url, i'll take a look..21:51
ali1234it might help if the existing templates weren't such a mess of all different stuff21:53
TheFredali1234, yea, its a translation from french, so its not exactly fluid in its explanation21:53
ali1234that's not the problem at all21:53
ali1234the problem is that "how to make quickly templates" is "you write this file, and you define commands in it to do whatever you want"21:54
ali1234ok great. what commands? what should they do?21:54
ali1234who knows?21:54
ali1234effectively according to that explanation, quickly is as technically useful as a bash script, except it's written in python (or not, you can use anything you want lol)21:55
ali1234so, what exactly is the point of it again?21:55
AlanBelljust wait until you see juju21:56
AlanBellanyhow, night all o/21:56
ali1234i've seen it21:56
TheFredjuju?21:56
TheFredgnite AlanBell21:56
bigcalmGood evening peeps :)21:56
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
mgdm'ello bigcalm21:56
ali1234juju is like quickly but for servers21:56
mgdmbigcalm: tell me what I should blog about?21:56
bigcalmmgdm: whisky21:57
mgdmI was considering Whisky Web, actually21:57
mgdmbut I've nothing to say about that that others haven't already said21:57
ali1234it's really simple as long as what you want to do happens to be exactly the same as the person who wrote the juju charm (which is a fancy way of saying "install script")21:57
mgdm'juju charm'21:57
mgdmalready I want nothing to do with it21:57
ali1234juju even has the same kind of "lock-in to the developer's favourite platform" as quickly does21:59
mgdmI have an app that I'd quite like to write in Python, but it'd need to run on Linux and Mac OS X, and have a not-too-ugly GUI21:59
mgdmI wonder if such a thing is attainable21:59
ali1234since it insists on managing all your virtual machines, you *have* t run it against AWS or an expensive dedicated server21:59
popeyor lxc22:00
ali1234it's completely useless if you have an unmanaged VPS22:00
ali1234lxc requires bare metal/dedicated server22:00
popeyi prototype juju charms on my laptop using lxc22:01
shaunomgdm: depending on your definition of ugly; eg Calibre is primarily python, and runs on win/lin/osx22:01
popeyso yeah, bare metal22:01
ali1234a laptop running ubuntu is bare metal22:01
ali1234specifically it's bare metal with ubuntu installed on it, as opposed to some virtual machine with ubuntu installed on it22:02
mgdmshauno: I find Calibre ugly but I think that's largely due to the choices of the developer :-) Do you know what toolkit it uses?22:02
shaunono idea, sorry22:03
ali1234mgdm: it's qt422:03
mgdmno worries, I'll play about22:03
mgdmali1234: ah ha22:03
ali1234python-qt4 to be specific22:04
TheFredmgdm, i worked through the Quickly tutorials, and found that Glade can have great results22:04
ali1234don't even get me started on glade22:04
ali1234it can have great results if you remember to save every 5 minutes because of the constant crashing22:04
mgdmI've used Glade on occasion, with PyGTK and PHP-GTK (!)22:04
* TheFred keeps quite about glade22:05
ali1234mgdm: Qt is the best toolkit for cross platform by a long long way22:05
ali1234and i agree that calibre is ugly. it isn't Qt's fault though22:05
ali1234Qt can do anything from perfect OS-styled to completely dynamic mobile touch interfaces, without even trying22:06
ali1234what Qt lacks is a HIG22:09
shaunoI wasn't trying to pick a contentious example :)  just the only one I've used on all three, that I happened to know was python22:09
ali1234but that's because it's desktop-agnostic22:09
ali1234plenty of stuff is written in Qt... most times you won't even know22:10
ali1234you really can make your app look however you want22:10
ali1234every widget supports full CSS styling, if you want that22:10
ali1234or you can just ignore it and get it perfectly integrated with the OS look and feel22:10
ali1234packaging python-qt apps for windows is a bit tricky though22:11
ali1234but then again, not more tricky that for debian22:11
TheFredIm wondering if quickly can be used to package a simple python program...22:12
ali1234someone who understands how to package a simple python program would have to make a template22:13
ali1234and if i knew how to do that, i wouldn't need quickly to do it for me... so yeah22:13
ali1234i think it has a command-line template, maybe you can use that22:15
ali1234called ubuntu-cli22:16
TheFredwell, looking the diretory structure of a non-built quickly program reveals a lot22:16
ali1234try this22:17
ali1234quickly create ubuntu-cli myapp22:17
ali1234then copy your python file over myapp/bin/myapp22:17
TheFredah  ok, one moment22:17
ali1234then that's it :)22:17
TheFredWOW22:18
ali1234oh and delete that myapp/ folder :)22:18
TheFredI think thats gold :)22:18
ali1234or put your source in there, and run it from the other bit22:18
ali1234yeah it looks good22:18
TheFredwhy delete the myapp/ directory?22:18
ali1234well you don't need it if you really only need one file22:19
TheFredhmmm, i see22:19
ali1234probably better to use it as intended, if you can figure that out22:19
ali1234then quickly package22:20
TheFredso, does the original myapp.py file need to be deleted/changed in any way?22:22
TheFredor22:22
ali1234depends22:22
TheFredsay my python program is call mytest.py22:22
ali1234it really depends what you need22:22
TheFredand i create a project call mytest.py22:22
TheFredforget it ... i'll test it and see :)22:22
ali1234another option is drop your python source over myapp/myapp/__init__.py22:24
TheFredwhat does that do?22:24
TheFreddoh - yes of course22:24
ali1234it's where myapp imports myapp.main() from22:25
ali1234(yeah not confusing at all right?)22:25
TheFred__init__.py calls myapp.py .... so if ireplace __init__.py with mytest.py (the single simply python program) then it *should* go ok22:26
TheFredonly way to know is to try22:26
* TheFred goes to see if it works22:26
ali1234yeah22:26
TheFredaha - i just appended my simple python program to the main() method of __init__.py and *it works* :->22:28
ali1234yeah it would22:28
ali1234AlanBell: this would all probably work for you too ^22:28
ali1234i love how "quickly save" doesn't ask you for a commit message22:29
ali1234yet more proof bzr users don't actually care about history22:29
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
TheFredali1234, i think a commit message can be added via launchpad/etc.... i may be wrong tho22:31
ali1234you can probably just bzr commit -a (or whatever the syntax is)22:32
ali1234but really, if you're happy with bzr you're probably not planning to ever look at the commit log anyway22:32
TheFredbzr is high on tommorows To Learn list - if the Tide and weather mean i cant go rowing that is :)22:35
TheFredali1234, just a word of warning, if you use Gedit, make sure any ~ temp files are deleted before running quickly package!22:39
ali1234i always disable gedit backups22:40
ali1234no reason for them if you use a CVS22:40
ali1234of course git isn't stupid enough to commit them in the first place22:40
ali1234but they are still annoying22:40
TheFredIm testing the .deb file on another system,just to be sure..22:41
ali1234good idea22:42
TheFredhmm, just had software center warn that the package was of bad quality...22:43
TheFredwhoohoo, yup although it complained it run ok, no need for the old 'python mytest.py', all i had to do way enter 'myapp' into terminal and pop, there it is :)22:44
ali1234well i can tell you exactly how to fix that22:45
TheFredim all ears :)22:45
ali1234put !#/usr/bin/env python on first line of your python script and then chmod a+x it22:45
TheFredaha22:45
ali1234and it doesn't need to be .py either22:46
TheFredah, i thought you meant fixing the warning from the software center about it being a bad package...22:46
ali1234that's cos you didn't sign it22:47
ali1234you need to set up gpg keys22:47
ali1234that's a whole other mess22:47
ali1234i notice that quickly uses #!/usr/bin/python22:47
ali1234that's wrong22:47
TheFredah yes, I *do* have GPG keys ready for signing it :), i will try that now22:48
TheFreddamit22:57
TheFredi've found that signing a cli program with quickly seems different to the Glade projects22:57
ali1234report a bug. it shouldn't be22:58
TheFredlet me be clear: quickly sign ends with 'ERROR: No sign command found in template ubuntu-cli.'22:58
TheFredI culd have sworn that 'quickly sign myapp' worked on the tutorial22:59
* TheFred revisits quickly tutorial :(22:59
ali1234template: ubuntu-cli22:59
ali1234it's a bug, the template is missing that command22:59
ali1234this is why overly generic templating systems are a terrible terrible idea23:00
ali1234actually, is that really the right command?23:00
TheFredI'll see if i can work around it, and report a bug if there's not one already23:01
ali1234nice, quickly does the gpg stuff for you23:01
ali1234that's something to be happy about23:02
ali1234i need some more entropy though. lalala23:02
TheFreddoh.... its23:02
TheFred'quickly license'23:02
ali1234uh... so it makes a key and tells you to upload it. fair enough. but it doesn't tell me where it created the key23:02
TheFredfor me it was in my home directory, its in passwords and keys23:03
ali1234are you sure that signs it?23:04
ali1234it looks like it just prompts you to set up the iicense23:05
TheFredyea, thats what im thinking right now too23:07
ali1234we should go annoy the people in #quickly by having that conversation there instead of here23:07
TheFredI changed the Authors file,but just got a fail with no error or reason23:07
TheFredyoou mean there's #quickly.... lemmeatem' :)23:08

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