=== rastamouse is now known as nothingspecial | ||
=== webpigeo1 is now known as webpigeon | ||
popey | Morning | 08:19 |
---|---|---|
dwatkins | hiya | 08:28 |
Myrtti | mur | 08:29 |
brobostigon | good morning everyone. | 09:39 |
* awilkins stabs Eclipse in the face | 10:06 | |
awilkins | WE HATES IT *hsssss* | 10:07 |
awilkins | Is there a way to remove things from the Unity global menu blacklist? | 10:12 |
awilkins | Aha, cunning : http://askubuntu.com/questions/69815/can-i-make-eclipse-use-the-ubuntu-global-menu | 10:19 |
dogmatic69 | some pretty interesting stats in the disk utility | 11:52 |
dogmatic69 | power cycles: 6371 | 11:53 |
dogmatic69 | 2.9 years total on time | 11:53 |
=== jason_ is now known as Jasieb | ||
jacobw | \o/ statistics | 12:09 |
MartijnVdS | everything is better with statistics | 12:09 |
dogmatic69 | Was looking for drives to put in my nas, decided against that one | 12:09 |
jacobw | i'm trying to remember the name of the informatics guy who starting keeping statistics on everything quantifiable in his life after losing his father | 12:13 |
jacobw | his graphics are amazing | 12:13 |
jacobw | feltron.com | 12:16 |
MartijnVdS | jacobw: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920000617.do + the books of Edward Tufte | 12:19 |
MartijnVdS | http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi | 12:19 |
MartijnVdS | http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_be | 12:20 |
* jacobw will guy | 12:45 | |
jacobw | s/guy/buy | 12:45 |
MartijnVdS | uh oh | 12:45 |
MartijnVdS | don't blame me if you end up begging in the streets :P | 12:45 |
MartijnVdS | "But.. MartijnVdS told me to buy all those books!" | 12:45 |
jacobw | :) | 12:47 |
Lukan27 | If I want to show alot of terminal data where do I put it? Can't remember the name | 12:56 |
MartijnVdS | Lukan27: less? | 12:56 |
MartijnVdS | Lukan27: command --with-long-output | less | 12:56 |
MartijnVdS | Lukan27: command --with-long-output > some_file | 12:57 |
MartijnVdS | Lukan27: oh wait, to show us? | 12:57 |
MartijnVdS | !pastebin | Lukan27 | 12:57 |
lubotu3 | Lukan27: For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic. | 12:57 |
Lukan27 | Nono, so other people on this chat can see it | 12:57 |
Lukan27 | Pastebin, exactly! | 12:57 |
Lukan27 | Thanks | 12:57 |
dogmatic69 | lol | 14:49 |
dogmatic69 | anyone watching tennis? | 14:49 |
brobostigon | no. | 14:49 |
dogmatic69 | my gf is, its some final. The one guy just kicked some side line ref or something. GAME OVER | 14:50 |
dogmatic69 | Crowd is not happy, paying for a final and watching for only an hour. | 14:51 |
brobostigon | understandable. yes. | 14:51 |
jacobw | bloop | 15:39 |
* lazarus_ wonders if there is a way to remove android(or dualbot) and put ubuntu or somthing like that on my tablet | 15:45 | |
penguin42 | lazarus_: There are frigs - but generally the problem is that the kernels are special builds for each tablet and the graphics drivers are very random | 15:47 |
penguin42 | lazarus_: Most userspace stuff would work | 15:48 |
* lazarus_ i just dont like android all that much | 15:51 | |
brobostigon | pickup the webos source, and play, :) | 15:52 |
jacobw | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJ2yWvGnkI | 15:53 |
jacobw | lololol | 15:53 |
lazarus_ | i have an acer icoina tab a200 | 15:54 |
brobostigon | ouch, the google+ app, is twice as big as the FB one. 14MB, and 29MB. | 15:54 |
brobostigon | whats the opinion of tweetdeck compared to seesmic on android. ? | 16:16 |
mgdm | brobostigon: never used seesmic, but I liked Tweetdeck | 16:28 |
brobostigon | mgdm: ok, thank you. | 16:29 |
mgdm | I see SSDs are now approaching 50p/gig (at least a quick glance on amazon suggests so) | 17:56 |
popey | good news | 17:58 |
mgdm | indeed, I might well be tempted to enliven this machine a bit | 17:58 |
mgdm | Not right now, though, just bought tickets for Ross Noble :-) | 17:58 |
popey | oh nice | 18:03 |
MartijnVdS | hmm | 18:03 |
MartijnVdS | mgdm: no-brand SSD or proper ones? | 18:04 |
mgdm | MartijnVdS: Crucial and Samsung on Amazon both seemed to be approximately the same price | 18:04 |
mgdm | I was being highly unscientific about it | 18:04 |
MartijnVdS | mgdm: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/674/solid-state-drives.html#filter:q1bKL0pJLXLLTM1JUbJSKi5ITc5My0xOLMnMz1PSgUgG5xeVAOUSi5PhIkBlnkD1JmYmtQA :) | 18:04 |
mgdm | got one that gives me the info in real money? :) | 18:05 |
MartijnVdS | mgdm: ask google -- 0.63 EUR in GBP | 18:05 |
mgdm | I was kidding :) | 18:05 |
mgdm | I'll have another look in a couple of months | 18:05 |
MartijnVdS | Though "Silicon Power" | 18:05 |
mgdm | don't need one right now | 18:05 |
MartijnVdS | Who trusts their data to that | 18:06 |
MartijnVdS | whoa, a 512GB from Crucial that's cheapish | 18:07 |
=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan | ||
penguin42 | how cheapish? | 18:37 |
MartijnVdS | 361 european money units | 18:38 |
MartijnVdS | that's about 290 GBP or 131.5kg | 18:39 |
penguin42 | MartijnVdS: Are those the european money units before the results of the greek vote? | 18:39 |
MartijnVdS | penguin42: current ones | 18:41 |
penguin42 | :-) | 18:41 |
penguin42 | actually, it's not bad - it's almost 2 GB per GBP | 18:41 |
penguin42 | MartijnVdS: Are they SATA-2 or 3? | 18:42 |
MartijnVdS | penguin42: CT512M4SSD1 Slim | 18:42 |
MartijnVdS | SATA-600 | 18:42 |
popey | ooooo 512GB | 18:44 |
popey | 7mm! | 18:44 |
popey | tempting | 18:44 |
penguin42 | MartijnVdS: Interesting, the UK crucial site is listing the CT512M4SSD2 | 18:45 |
penguin42 | 272 UK+VAT - so 327 inc | 18:46 |
MartijnVdS | hmm | 18:47 |
MartijnVdS | the thing I linked to is a big price-comparison site | 18:48 |
MartijnVdS | for computer parts | 18:48 |
MartijnVdS | so the price I listed is the cheapest it could find for me | 18:48 |
penguin42 | the 256GB tempts me more - I don't use 512GB | 18:50 |
MartijnVdS | I have lots of music as FLAC | 18:51 |
MartijnVdS | and a bunch of RAW photos | 18:51 |
* penguin42 has 13GB of music, on a USB stick | 18:53 | |
mgdm | if I use the 'flexible method' of creating a USB installer from the wiki, it fails | 18:55 |
mgdm | is unetbootin worth a go? | 18:55 |
penguin42 | mgdm: These days you should just be able to dd the iso image onto the USB stick | 18:55 |
mgdm | (it fails saying it cannot find various files from the CD image) | 18:55 |
mgdm | Hmm, didn't think of that | 18:56 |
penguin42 | mgdm: I think it started working with 11.10; certainly works for 12.04 | 18:57 |
mgdm | cool | 18:57 |
mgdm | I'll give that a blast; thanks | 18:58 |
directhex | kingston are doing 128gb ssds for £65 at the mo | 19:05 |
directhex | if anyone cares | 19:05 |
directhex | http://www.scan.co.uk/shops/kingston/hyperx3k | 19:05 |
popey | /dev/sda1 216G 160G 45G 79% / | 19:06 |
popey | I'd keep all my photos on my laptop if I had a 512GB one | 19:07 |
ali1234 | /dev/sda1 80G 30G 47G 39% / | 19:07 |
AlanBell | /dev/sda1 216G 125G 80G 61% / | 19:08 |
ali1234 | how does a SSD increase your FPS? | 19:08 |
directhex | ali1234: it reduces stutter, which can help in some benchmarks | 19:18 |
ali1234 | what is stutter? like loading textures? | 19:23 |
MartijnVdS | loading anything of disk too slowly | 19:24 |
MartijnVdS | off* | 19:24 |
MartijnVdS | models, textures, ... | 19:24 |
mgdm | right, well, that works | 19:28 |
directhex | ali1234: yeah, or other stuff like MartijnVdS says | 19:54 |
directhex | ali1234: it's very uncommon for a modern engine to load 100% of potentially used resources to RAM, games are designed for use on low-ram consoles so spool resources as needed from fixed disk. and spinning rust can cause stutter in many cases | 19:55 |
MartijnVdS | hmm | 19:55 |
MartijnVdS | what woudl happen if I put an SSD in my PS3 | 19:55 |
ali1234 | i suppose that's a problem if your game is several dvds | 19:56 |
directhex | MartijnVdS: depends on the game. there are benchmarks out there | 19:56 |
directhex | MartijnVdS: load times can drop from 0-50% if memory serves | 19:56 |
ali1234 | directhex: have you played lone survivor? it's terrible. 2d game with like 256x160 graphics, and it needs a 3GHz processor to run full speed | 19:57 |
MartijnVdS | noice | 19:57 |
mgdm | does tasksel not exist any more? | 19:57 |
mgdm | (at least by default) | 19:58 |
directhex | ali1234: no, i didn't try that one yet | 19:58 |
directhex | ali1234: if it's flash, then, well, flash. | 19:58 |
directhex | ali1234: nothing makes my wife's pc groan like farmville | 19:58 |
ali1234 | can't those mono guys rewrite the flash runtime or something, like thewy did with android? | 19:58 |
ali1234 | actually there was that flash to html5 thing the other day, i should check that out | 19:59 |
mgdm | heh | 19:59 |
mgdm | Err, where's the font size control gone? | 20:02 |
ali1234 | gnome-tweak-tool | 20:02 |
mgdm | "tool to adjust advanced configuration settings for GNOME" | 20:03 |
mgdm | so font sizes are now 'advanced' | 20:03 |
ali1234 | yes | 20:03 |
directhex | mgdm: yes! | 20:03 |
mgdm | that's bonkers | 20:03 |
ali1234 | didn't you get the memo? | 20:03 |
ali1234 | the user is always wrong | 20:03 |
directhex | why adjust them, when they're right by default? | 20:04 |
ali1234 | you should be thankful anyone even bothered to make gnome-tweak-tool, clearly advanced users should be using dconf directly | 20:04 |
ali1234 | because advanced users love futzing around on the command line | 20:04 |
* AlanBell wonders what exactly gnome-tweak-tool tweaks | 20:04 | |
mgdm | these ones are wrong | 20:04 |
mgdm | also installing gnome-tweak-tool wants to bring in GNOME shell | 20:05 |
directhex | mgdm: no, your eyes are wrong. gnome is right! | 20:05 |
* directhex wibbles | 20:05 | |
AlanBell | wow, that actually works really well | 20:05 |
ali1234 | it's basically the old "appearance" dialog that was removed | 20:06 |
AlanBell | oh I like text scaling factor 0.5 | 20:06 |
mgdm | there's a 'font size' thing in the Universal Access bit | 20:06 |
mgdm | however, I've installed MyUnity anyway | 20:07 |
ali1234 | that text scaling slider is horribly, horribly broken | 20:07 |
AlanBell | the accessibility tool text sizing is nowhere near as wide in scope as the gnome-tweak-tool slider | 20:08 |
ali1234 | because changing the font size resizes in real time, the slider moves under you | 20:08 |
AlanBell | yeah, that is a bit daft | 20:08 |
ali1234 | so if you just hold down the mouse it goes into a loop of resizing | 20:08 |
mgdm | AlanBell: it was close enough, for the size, but wouldn't let me change the monospace font | 20:08 |
ali1234 | then you let go and get a random size | 20:08 |
ali1234 | i will report that actually | 20:09 |
mgdm | I might just reinstall cinammon :-) | 20:11 |
ali1234 | no, install gnome-fallback | 20:13 |
ali1234 | it's much better than cinammon | 20:13 |
ali1234 | you can put panels on any monitor | 20:13 |
ali1234 | you can move stuff around on them | 20:13 |
ali1234 | you can put them anywhere you want | 20:13 |
mgdm | ooo | 20:17 |
ali1234 | from now on i'm audioswapping all my bug videos with "entry of the gladiators" | 20:21 |
ali1234 | starting with this one | 20:21 |
ali1234 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-tweak-tool/+bug/1014403 | 20:24 |
lubotu3 | Ubuntu bug 1014403 in gnome-tweak-tool (Ubuntu) "gnome-tweak-tool font scaling slider is extremely difficult to use." [Undecided,New] | 20:24 |
popey | i hear nothing | 20:25 |
ali1234 | audio swap takes a while to kick in apparently | 20:26 |
popey | ah | 20:26 |
popey | i would expect the response you get is "file it upstream" | 20:26 |
ali1234 | yeah | 20:26 |
ali1234 | i will do that also | 20:26 |
popey | cool | 20:26 |
ali1234 | anyone know where upstream for this is? | 20:26 |
popey | gnome bugzilla | 20:26 |
ali1234 | i like to use launchpad as a staging point for my bugs, because it is so much better than the junk everyone else uses | 20:27 |
AlanBell | if someone were to attempt to add such a slider into some bit of unity, where should it go and how should it not fail like that? | 20:27 |
ali1234 | you can make it not fail by not updating the font size until the user releases the mouse button | 20:28 |
ali1234 | which is certainly possible with Qt | 20:28 |
popey | or not make it a slider | 20:28 |
ali1234 | i dunno about Gtk though | 20:28 |
popey | https://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-control-center | 20:28 |
ali1234 | (that setting in Qt works for all widgets btw) | 20:28 |
ali1234 | so also spinners etc, can be configured to update in real time, or not until the user stops editing them | 20:29 |
ali1234 | for example, text entry where user types a search query | 20:29 |
kane_ | hello | 20:29 |
ali1234 | you know what's annoying? text search where you type "s" and then wait 5 minutes while it lists everything beginning with "s", before you are able to type the next letter of your query | 20:29 |
kane_ | does anyone no how to get gconf editor | 20:30 |
AlanBell | kane_: dconf-editor is the new hotness | 20:30 |
ali1234 | sudo apt-get install gconf-editor | 20:30 |
ali1234 | popey: tweak tool is specifically not part of control center, no? | 20:31 |
ali1234 | it has it's own product | 20:31 |
kane_ | thanks | 20:31 |
AlanBell | kane_: some things are tweaked with dconf-editor now, which is in the dconf-tools package | 20:32 |
kane_ | yh i just had to change the minimize close and maximize button layout | 20:34 |
kane_ | is there a way to move the top bar to the bottom ? | 20:35 |
ali1234 | no | 20:36 |
AlanBell | it is probably going to be easier for you to go with the flow and learn to enjoy it at the top | 20:36 |
ali1234 | no, you should install gnome-fallback and use that instead, you can do whatever you want then | 20:36 |
ali1234 | including move the panels | 20:37 |
AlanBell | or that | 20:37 |
kane_ | sorry im used to windows im trying lol | 20:37 |
kane_ | is there a way to change the sensativity of the left bar | 20:37 |
AlanBell | cool, unity is a bit different, you do get used to it | 20:37 |
AlanBell | sensitivity in what way? | 20:38 |
kane_ | like it takes longer to come up | 20:38 |
kane_ | because it comes up when i try and close a internet | 20:38 |
AlanBell | argh, don't close the internet /o\ | 20:38 |
AlanBell | :) | 20:39 |
kane_ | what | 20:39 |
ali1234 | internet's closed | 20:39 |
AlanBell | there is a setting called launcher reveal pressure and one called laucher reveal edge responsiveness | 20:39 |
AlanBell | in compiz-config-settingsmanager | 20:39 |
ali1234 | i think that can be set from the normal control panel now | 20:40 |
AlanBell | I don't have my launcher hiding so I don't know how well they work | 20:40 |
mgdm | Ooooh | 20:40 |
mgdm | this is the first Linux release to support middle button scroll with the trackpoint properly out of the box | 20:40 |
ali1234 | i don't have a launcher at all :) | 20:40 |
mgdm | though given that I use Macs most of the time these days it feels backwards | 20:40 |
AlanBell | ali1234: you can set it to autohide or not from the standard control panel, but tweaking the sensitivity isn't in that | 20:42 |
kane_ | im confused | 20:43 |
ali1234 | join the club | 20:43 |
ahayzen | Hi, I'm using the mini.iso to install via a network install .... i have just selected linux-generic as the kernel and it is asking me for the drivers to include in the initrd should it be 'generic - include all available drivers' or 'targeted - only include drivers needed for this system'.... are there any disadvantages of using 'targeted' ? | 20:43 |
AlanBell | kane_: which bit? | 20:43 |
kane_ | every bit :S | 20:44 |
ali1234 | ahayzen: yes. if you install new hardware you won't have drivers for it | 20:44 |
ahayzen | so which should i select? | 20:45 |
ali1234 | well if you targeted | 20:45 |
ali1234 | you can always rebuild it later | 20:45 |
ahayzen | i had to use the mini.iso as I am installing on a system without pae | 20:45 |
ahayzen | so what doesn't it include? | 20:45 |
ali1234 | any drivers for any hardware not currntly plugged in to your computer | 20:45 |
AlanBell | kane_: so, the normal systems settings tool shows a bunch of things that can be tweaked, but not all of the little detailed ones, just high level stuff | 20:45 |
ali1234 | note that initrd only really needs the drivers for devices you intend to boot from | 20:46 |
ahayzen | ali1234: ok... so what does the standard Ubuntu install do? | 20:46 |
kane_ | thanks | 20:46 |
ali1234 | no idea | 20:46 |
ali1234 | prbably generic | 20:46 |
ahayzen | how much bigger is generic than targeted? | 20:46 |
ali1234 | again i have no idea | 20:46 |
AlanBell | kane_: there is a more detailed tool (several of them actually) to tweak different settings, some of which are a bit hidden for a good reason (like you can mess up your system) | 20:46 |
ahayzen | lol | 20:46 |
ali1234 | seriously, install gnome-fallback, have a nice working system and stop worrying about it | 20:48 |
AlanBell | ahayzen: I would go for generic unless you are trying to do something really specific like a thin client with hardly any space | 20:48 |
ahayzen | ali1234: Ok thanks for your advice, i think i'm go for generic | 20:48 |
ahayzen | alanbell: Thanks :) | 20:48 |
AlanBell | ali1234: E: Unable to locate package gnome-fallback | 20:48 |
ali1234 | it's called gnome-session-fallback | 20:48 |
ali1234 | be sure to use it in 2D mode though, because compiz 0.9 is really broken | 20:49 |
ali1234 | you can emable compositing in metacity though, that works fine | 20:49 |
AlanBell | ali1234: gnome-session-fallback seems to work fine in quantal with compiz in virtualbox | 20:52 |
ali1234 | are you sure compiz is really running and it didn't just fall back to metacity? | 20:52 |
ali1234 | also are you sure it's really working fine? show a screenshot :) | 20:53 |
AlanBell | will do in a sec | 20:53 |
AlanBell | just installing ccsm to turn on more bling | 20:53 |
AlanBell | yay, it zooms the panels as they are not drawn with that nux kookiness | 20:55 |
mgdm | hmm, Chrome doesn't show up in the launcher, nor in alt-tab | 20:56 |
=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan | ||
AlanBell | http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/screenshots/Screenshot%20from%202012-06-17%2021:57:29.png | 20:58 |
ali1234 | yeah, that's better than it does in precise | 20:58 |
ali1234 | i notice the workspace switcher is messed up. does it work? | 20:59 |
ali1234 | i mean the widget in the bottom right | 20:59 |
AlanBell | works fine | 20:59 |
ali1234 | can you make it a 1 row 4 column layout? | 20:59 |
AlanBell | it isn't messed up | 20:59 |
AlanBell | heh, thought my VM had frozen up, but I was clicking on my screenshot | 21:00 |
ali1234 | lol | 21:00 |
ali1234 | that's the trouble with giving every window zero pixel borders | 21:01 |
AlanBell | yeah, 4x1 works fine, the workspace switcher looks like it used to do | 21:01 |
* AlanBell tries cube | 21:01 | |
ali1234 | and when you click, it works? | 21:01 |
ali1234 | in precise if you do this, change the switcher to 4x1, and then click anther workspace, it takes you to a weird n-dimensional desktop that is like a parallel universe | 21:02 |
AlanBell | yeah, clicking worked | 21:02 |
AlanBell | and now clicking rotates the cube | 21:02 |
ali1234 | your panels disappear and to get them back you have to go to screen 1 of the parallel universe desktop and click on where they should be, then they come back | 21:02 |
ali1234 | this is due to gnome and unity-compiz having different ideas about virtual desktops, and the widget tries to switch between the two modes, but doesn't quite manage it | 21:03 |
AlanBell | I am struggling to find fault with this | 21:03 |
ali1234 | yeah | 21:03 |
ali1234 | seems like all the bugs have been fixed | 21:03 |
ali1234 | i can't really think of any others except the overall slowness of compiz 0.9 compared to 0.8 | 21:04 |
ali1234 | but that's hard to measure in a VM | 21:04 |
AlanBell | most of that is because the mouse position polling is set to 40ms | 21:04 |
AlanBell | set it to 1 and it all goes silky smooth | 21:05 |
ali1234 | no it isn't | 21:05 |
ali1234 | that makes no difference to eg. fullscreen games | 21:05 |
ali1234 | with compiz 0.9 everything is capped at 30fps on my system | 21:05 |
AlanBell | oh, I don't play games | 21:06 |
AlanBell | I might go try get my patch to the mouse polling accepted | 21:06 |
AlanBell | bug 930783 | 21:07 |
lubotu3 | Launchpad bug 930783 in compiz-plugins-main (Ubuntu) "mouse poll is jerky at the default setting of 40ms" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930783 | 21:07 |
mgdm | is there a Twitter client or Linux worth talking about, or am I going back to tweetdeck? | 21:07 |
TheFred | hello | 21:07 |
kane_ | hi | 21:07 |
TheFred | Hi kane_ | 21:07 |
AlanBell | mgdm: polly works fine for me | 21:08 |
ali1234 | mgdm: isn't that what gwibber does? | 21:08 |
ubuntuuk-planet | [Jono Bacon] My First Fathers Day - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/06/17/my-first-fathers-day/ | 21:08 |
mgdm | ali1234: gwibber is a terrible joke | 21:08 |
ali1234 | but... it's the default program! | 21:09 |
TheFred | just wondering if anyone knows how to turn a .py file that needs htop into a .deb file? | 21:09 |
ali1234 | that means it is the best one | 21:09 |
ali1234 | TheFred: why does it need htop? | 21:10 |
ali1234 | i hope you're not screenscraping... | 21:10 |
TheFred | it uses popen to fetch system details | 21:10 |
TheFred | nope - its not screensraping | 21:10 |
ali1234 | yes it is :( | 21:11 |
TheFred | really? | 21:11 |
ali1234 | you're parsing the output of htop | 21:11 |
ali1234 | just get the information directly | 21:11 |
TheFred | i though sreen sraping was html realted? | 21:11 |
ali1234 | same thing | 21:11 |
TheFred | aha | 21:11 |
ali1234 | and same problems | 21:11 |
ali1234 | output of htop changes, your program breaks | 21:12 |
TheFred | no problems with it - it works really well | 21:12 |
ali1234 | what information are you looking for? | 21:12 |
ali1234 | there's almost certainly a more compatible way to get it | 21:12 |
TheFred | only thing is now i want to package it into a .deb file | 21:12 |
ali1234 | packaging is a black art that few understand | 21:13 |
TheFred | well then, i guess i want to learn a black art :) | 21:13 |
* TheFred goes back to google search | 21:13 | |
AlanBell | TheFred: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide | 21:20 |
AlanBell | http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/ even | 21:20 |
TheFred | thanks AlanBell, thats what im re-reading :) | 21:20 |
ali1234 | AlanBell: did that guide help you at all? | 21:21 |
AlanBell | ali1234: well it is kind of like the total perspective vortex | 21:22 |
ali1234 | it's extremely bzr-centric too | 21:22 |
TheFred | erm, well, yes and no.... its the control file section that has me slightly confused: the correct syntax for dependancies in particular | 21:22 |
AlanBell | if you read that, and the Debian manual it really gives you a sense of how small and insignificant the sum total of your knowledge really is | 21:23 |
ali1234 | heh | 21:23 |
ali1234 | maybe i'm arrogant but it just made me think "this is pointlessly complicated" | 21:23 |
mgdm | that was my experience, too; on the other hand, I'm awfully lazy | 21:23 |
TheFred | AlanBell, yup,plus im honing my android-app skills | 21:23 |
mgdm | Android apps are child's play compared to debian packaging :P | 21:24 |
AlanBell | yeah, you kind of need to know about 20 years of evolution of packaging systems to know which one to use on which package | 21:24 |
TheFred | AlanBell, Im going for the 'try it on my system - and it it works then ask others to test it' approach | 21:25 |
TheFred | namely family an friends | 21:25 |
=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan | ||
ali1234 | if i have a standard "make; make install" package, why isn't there a tool that can do it all for me? | 21:25 |
AlanBell | I think there is | 21:25 |
TheFred | the short answer is that there is | 21:25 |
ali1234 | similarly, if i have a "python setup.py install" based source, why isn't there a tool that can do it automatically? | 21:25 |
AlanBell | pkgme should do that, amongst others | 21:26 |
=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan | ||
ali1234 | note: this tool should not rely on the source being in any particular VCS | 21:26 |
ali1234 | there's simply no reason for that | 21:26 |
AlanBell | what I am struggling with is a package with a single executable python script in it | 21:26 |
TheFred | heh +1 AlanBell | 21:26 |
ali1234 | well, doing a setup.py for that shoud be trivial | 21:26 |
AlanBell | laney helped sort it out in some mysterious way, I must get my GPG keys sorted so I can upload it | 21:26 |
ali1234 | the stupid part is i can explain to a 100% total noob how to download and install my software from source, but i can't comprehend how to make a package | 21:27 |
TheFred | AlanBell, ye, it took a while to go through the tutorials and get my GPG and SSH keys uploaded | 21:27 |
ali1234 | why is packaging so much harder than installing from source? | 21:27 |
TheFred | because you have to put together the program + install instructins to make it easy to install | 21:28 |
ali1234 | as i just said, i can do that | 21:28 |
ali1234 | that isn't the hard part of packaging | 21:28 |
TheFred | oh | 21:28 |
TheFred | what is, for you? | 21:29 |
ali1234 | making the package | 21:29 |
TheFred | i dont understand, you can make the control file, but have fails with the actual packaging method>? | 21:30 |
ali1234 | writing the control file, yes, that's the hard part | 21:30 |
TheFred | aha, that i do understand :) | 21:30 |
ali1234 | also writing the rules file and the changelog file | 21:30 |
ali1234 | and then putting them into a directory | 21:31 |
ali1234 | and then figuring out where to put the source so that it actually works | 21:31 |
ali1234 | and then how to turn all that into a .deb | 21:31 |
TheFred | yup, its try and try again until its nailed into our memory :) | 21:31 |
ali1234 | and then once you've done that, how to update it | 21:32 |
TheFred | thats a good point, 1 not considered yet | 21:32 |
TheFred | updates that it... | 21:32 |
TheFred | at this point i think that the version number dictates which package is seen as newer, so as long as the user gets the 0.2.0 .deb (newest) then thats all there is to it | 21:33 |
TheFred | I expect i have a lot more to digest :( | 21:33 |
* AlanBell runs sudo virtualbox | 21:34 | |
ali1234 | another problem is packages have a load of fields that i don't understand what i'm supposed to put in them | 21:34 |
TheFred | thats a great tip AlanBell | 21:34 |
AlanBell | TheFred: not generally adviseable! I am booting my old hard disk attached in a USB enclosure as the root drive of a VM | 21:35 |
TheFred | whoa - take care there! | 21:35 |
AlanBell | there is probably a way to let a non-root user have that much access to the device, but this works | 21:36 |
AlanBell | I had encrypted home directory on it so I can only get stuff off it by booting it | 21:36 |
TheFred | for a moment i thought you meant to imply that i use a vm as a sterile environment to work on packaging | 21:37 |
TheFred | aha | 21:37 |
ali1234 | "debian/compat This file should contain the number 8. This is a magic number. Do not put any other number in there. " | 21:37 |
ali1234 | whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? | 21:38 |
AlanBell | TheFred: no (but that is a reasonable idea) I am trying to get back my GPG keys | 21:38 |
TheFred | ali1234, where did you read that? I've not seen that yet... its not some april fools thing is it? | 21:39 |
ali1234 | http://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging | 21:39 |
TheFred | AlanBell, the old forgotten passphrase thing eh? | 21:39 |
TheFred | ali1234, wow - so it does, but thats the first time i've read that when searching about this | 21:40 |
TheFred | ali1234, ah - thats ONLY for debhelper tho | 21:41 |
AlanBell | this is the hard thing, do magic thing "foo" for easy fully automated packaging tool "bar" | 21:43 |
AlanBell | and there are so many packaging tools | 21:43 |
ali1234 | yeah | 21:43 |
ali1234 | and just look at quickly | 21:44 |
ali1234 | it will make a package for you in one step | 21:44 |
AlanBell | but luckily we now have pkgme as one universal packaging tool that covers everyones use cases | 21:44 |
AlanBell | http://xkcd.com/927/ | 21:44 |
ali1234 | unfortunately you have to use bzr, and your program has to have a main window with a file menu and a help screen and etc | 21:44 |
TheFred | hmmm, according to Google there are no pkgme tutorials.... | 21:47 |
TheFred | With the recent push of Quickly, i'd expect there to be more info about using quickly to build packages NOT build using Glade... | 21:49 |
ali1234 | quickly uses templates | 21:49 |
ali1234 | in theory it can make any type of package | 21:49 |
ali1234 | however in practice making templates is even more complicated than making debs | 21:49 |
ali1234 | eg http://www.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3a-Inside-Quickly-part-6 | 21:50 |
ali1234 | if you can understand any of that you're smarter than i am | 21:51 |
TheFred | ali1234, thanks for the url, i'll take a look.. | 21:51 |
ali1234 | it might help if the existing templates weren't such a mess of all different stuff | 21:53 |
TheFred | ali1234, yea, its a translation from french, so its not exactly fluid in its explanation | 21:53 |
ali1234 | that's not the problem at all | 21:53 |
ali1234 | the problem is that "how to make quickly templates" is "you write this file, and you define commands in it to do whatever you want" | 21:54 |
ali1234 | ok great. what commands? what should they do? | 21:54 |
ali1234 | who knows? | 21:54 |
ali1234 | effectively according to that explanation, quickly is as technically useful as a bash script, except it's written in python (or not, you can use anything you want lol) | 21:55 |
ali1234 | so, what exactly is the point of it again? | 21:55 |
AlanBell | just wait until you see juju | 21:56 |
AlanBell | anyhow, night all o/ | 21:56 |
ali1234 | i've seen it | 21:56 |
TheFred | juju? | 21:56 |
TheFred | gnite AlanBell | 21:56 |
bigcalm | Good evening peeps :) | 21:56 |
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
mgdm | 'ello bigcalm | 21:56 |
ali1234 | juju is like quickly but for servers | 21:56 |
mgdm | bigcalm: tell me what I should blog about? | 21:56 |
bigcalm | mgdm: whisky | 21:57 |
mgdm | I was considering Whisky Web, actually | 21:57 |
mgdm | but I've nothing to say about that that others haven't already said | 21:57 |
ali1234 | it's really simple as long as what you want to do happens to be exactly the same as the person who wrote the juju charm (which is a fancy way of saying "install script") | 21:57 |
mgdm | 'juju charm' | 21:57 |
mgdm | already I want nothing to do with it | 21:57 |
ali1234 | juju even has the same kind of "lock-in to the developer's favourite platform" as quickly does | 21:59 |
mgdm | I have an app that I'd quite like to write in Python, but it'd need to run on Linux and Mac OS X, and have a not-too-ugly GUI | 21:59 |
mgdm | I wonder if such a thing is attainable | 21:59 |
ali1234 | since it insists on managing all your virtual machines, you *have* t run it against AWS or an expensive dedicated server | 21:59 |
popey | or lxc | 22:00 |
ali1234 | it's completely useless if you have an unmanaged VPS | 22:00 |
ali1234 | lxc requires bare metal/dedicated server | 22:00 |
popey | i prototype juju charms on my laptop using lxc | 22:01 |
shauno | mgdm: depending on your definition of ugly; eg Calibre is primarily python, and runs on win/lin/osx | 22:01 |
popey | so yeah, bare metal | 22:01 |
ali1234 | a laptop running ubuntu is bare metal | 22:01 |
ali1234 | specifically it's bare metal with ubuntu installed on it, as opposed to some virtual machine with ubuntu installed on it | 22:02 |
mgdm | shauno: I find Calibre ugly but I think that's largely due to the choices of the developer :-) Do you know what toolkit it uses? | 22:02 |
shauno | no idea, sorry | 22:03 |
ali1234 | mgdm: it's qt4 | 22:03 |
mgdm | no worries, I'll play about | 22:03 |
mgdm | ali1234: ah ha | 22:03 |
ali1234 | python-qt4 to be specific | 22:04 |
TheFred | mgdm, i worked through the Quickly tutorials, and found that Glade can have great results | 22:04 |
ali1234 | don't even get me started on glade | 22:04 |
ali1234 | it can have great results if you remember to save every 5 minutes because of the constant crashing | 22:04 |
mgdm | I've used Glade on occasion, with PyGTK and PHP-GTK (!) | 22:04 |
* TheFred keeps quite about glade | 22:05 | |
ali1234 | mgdm: Qt is the best toolkit for cross platform by a long long way | 22:05 |
ali1234 | and i agree that calibre is ugly. it isn't Qt's fault though | 22:05 |
ali1234 | Qt can do anything from perfect OS-styled to completely dynamic mobile touch interfaces, without even trying | 22:06 |
ali1234 | what Qt lacks is a HIG | 22:09 |
shauno | I wasn't trying to pick a contentious example :) just the only one I've used on all three, that I happened to know was python | 22:09 |
ali1234 | but that's because it's desktop-agnostic | 22:09 |
ali1234 | plenty of stuff is written in Qt... most times you won't even know | 22:10 |
ali1234 | you really can make your app look however you want | 22:10 |
ali1234 | every widget supports full CSS styling, if you want that | 22:10 |
ali1234 | or you can just ignore it and get it perfectly integrated with the OS look and feel | 22:10 |
ali1234 | packaging python-qt apps for windows is a bit tricky though | 22:11 |
ali1234 | but then again, not more tricky that for debian | 22:11 |
TheFred | Im wondering if quickly can be used to package a simple python program... | 22:12 |
ali1234 | someone who understands how to package a simple python program would have to make a template | 22:13 |
ali1234 | and if i knew how to do that, i wouldn't need quickly to do it for me... so yeah | 22:13 |
ali1234 | i think it has a command-line template, maybe you can use that | 22:15 |
ali1234 | called ubuntu-cli | 22:16 |
TheFred | well, looking the diretory structure of a non-built quickly program reveals a lot | 22:16 |
ali1234 | try this | 22:17 |
ali1234 | quickly create ubuntu-cli myapp | 22:17 |
ali1234 | then copy your python file over myapp/bin/myapp | 22:17 |
TheFred | ah ok, one moment | 22:17 |
ali1234 | then that's it :) | 22:17 |
TheFred | WOW | 22:18 |
ali1234 | oh and delete that myapp/ folder :) | 22:18 |
TheFred | I think thats gold :) | 22:18 |
ali1234 | or put your source in there, and run it from the other bit | 22:18 |
ali1234 | yeah it looks good | 22:18 |
TheFred | why delete the myapp/ directory? | 22:18 |
ali1234 | well you don't need it if you really only need one file | 22:19 |
TheFred | hmmm, i see | 22:19 |
ali1234 | probably better to use it as intended, if you can figure that out | 22:19 |
ali1234 | then quickly package | 22:20 |
TheFred | so, does the original myapp.py file need to be deleted/changed in any way? | 22:22 |
TheFred | or | 22:22 |
ali1234 | depends | 22:22 |
TheFred | say my python program is call mytest.py | 22:22 |
ali1234 | it really depends what you need | 22:22 |
TheFred | and i create a project call mytest.py | 22:22 |
TheFred | forget it ... i'll test it and see :) | 22:22 |
ali1234 | another option is drop your python source over myapp/myapp/__init__.py | 22:24 |
TheFred | what does that do? | 22:24 |
TheFred | doh - yes of course | 22:24 |
ali1234 | it's where myapp imports myapp.main() from | 22:25 |
ali1234 | (yeah not confusing at all right?) | 22:25 |
TheFred | __init__.py calls myapp.py .... so if ireplace __init__.py with mytest.py (the single simply python program) then it *should* go ok | 22:26 |
TheFred | only way to know is to try | 22:26 |
* TheFred goes to see if it works | 22:26 | |
ali1234 | yeah | 22:26 |
TheFred | aha - i just appended my simple python program to the main() method of __init__.py and *it works* :-> | 22:28 |
ali1234 | yeah it would | 22:28 |
ali1234 | AlanBell: this would all probably work for you too ^ | 22:28 |
ali1234 | i love how "quickly save" doesn't ask you for a commit message | 22:29 |
ali1234 | yet more proof bzr users don't actually care about history | 22:29 |
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away | ||
TheFred | ali1234, i think a commit message can be added via launchpad/etc.... i may be wrong tho | 22:31 |
ali1234 | you can probably just bzr commit -a (or whatever the syntax is) | 22:32 |
ali1234 | but really, if you're happy with bzr you're probably not planning to ever look at the commit log anyway | 22:32 |
TheFred | bzr is high on tommorows To Learn list - if the Tide and weather mean i cant go rowing that is :) | 22:35 |
TheFred | ali1234, just a word of warning, if you use Gedit, make sure any ~ temp files are deleted before running quickly package! | 22:39 |
ali1234 | i always disable gedit backups | 22:40 |
ali1234 | no reason for them if you use a CVS | 22:40 |
ali1234 | of course git isn't stupid enough to commit them in the first place | 22:40 |
ali1234 | but they are still annoying | 22:40 |
TheFred | Im testing the .deb file on another system,just to be sure.. | 22:41 |
ali1234 | good idea | 22:42 |
TheFred | hmm, just had software center warn that the package was of bad quality... | 22:43 |
TheFred | whoohoo, yup although it complained it run ok, no need for the old 'python mytest.py', all i had to do way enter 'myapp' into terminal and pop, there it is :) | 22:44 |
ali1234 | well i can tell you exactly how to fix that | 22:45 |
TheFred | im all ears :) | 22:45 |
ali1234 | put !#/usr/bin/env python on first line of your python script and then chmod a+x it | 22:45 |
TheFred | aha | 22:45 |
ali1234 | and it doesn't need to be .py either | 22:46 |
TheFred | ah, i thought you meant fixing the warning from the software center about it being a bad package... | 22:46 |
ali1234 | that's cos you didn't sign it | 22:47 |
ali1234 | you need to set up gpg keys | 22:47 |
ali1234 | that's a whole other mess | 22:47 |
ali1234 | i notice that quickly uses #!/usr/bin/python | 22:47 |
ali1234 | that's wrong | 22:47 |
TheFred | ah yes, I *do* have GPG keys ready for signing it :), i will try that now | 22:48 |
TheFred | damit | 22:57 |
TheFred | i've found that signing a cli program with quickly seems different to the Glade projects | 22:57 |
ali1234 | report a bug. it shouldn't be | 22:58 |
TheFred | let me be clear: quickly sign ends with 'ERROR: No sign command found in template ubuntu-cli.' | 22:58 |
TheFred | I culd have sworn that 'quickly sign myapp' worked on the tutorial | 22:59 |
* TheFred revisits quickly tutorial :( | 22:59 | |
ali1234 | template: ubuntu-cli | 22:59 |
ali1234 | it's a bug, the template is missing that command | 22:59 |
ali1234 | this is why overly generic templating systems are a terrible terrible idea | 23:00 |
ali1234 | actually, is that really the right command? | 23:00 |
TheFred | I'll see if i can work around it, and report a bug if there's not one already | 23:01 |
ali1234 | nice, quickly does the gpg stuff for you | 23:01 |
ali1234 | that's something to be happy about | 23:02 |
ali1234 | i need some more entropy though. lalala | 23:02 |
TheFred | doh.... its | 23:02 |
TheFred | 'quickly license' | 23:02 |
ali1234 | uh... so it makes a key and tells you to upload it. fair enough. but it doesn't tell me where it created the key | 23:02 |
TheFred | for me it was in my home directory, its in passwords and keys | 23:03 |
ali1234 | are you sure that signs it? | 23:04 |
ali1234 | it looks like it just prompts you to set up the iicense | 23:05 |
TheFred | yea, thats what im thinking right now too | 23:07 |
ali1234 | we should go annoy the people in #quickly by having that conversation there instead of here | 23:07 |
TheFred | I changed the Authors file,but just got a fail with no error or reason | 23:07 |
TheFred | yoou mean there's #quickly.... lemmeatem' :) | 23:08 |
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