[08:19] <popey> Morning
[08:28] <dwatkins> hiya
[08:29] <Myrtti> mur
[09:39] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:06]  * awilkins stabs Eclipse in the face
[10:07] <awilkins> WE HATES IT *hsssss*
[10:12] <awilkins> Is there a way to remove things from the Unity global menu blacklist?
[10:19] <awilkins> Aha, cunning : http://askubuntu.com/questions/69815/can-i-make-eclipse-use-the-ubuntu-global-menu
[11:52] <dogmatic69> some pretty interesting stats in the disk utility
[11:53] <dogmatic69> power cycles: 6371
[11:53] <dogmatic69> 2.9 years total on time
[12:09] <jacobw> \o/ statistics
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> everything is better with statistics
[12:09] <dogmatic69> Was looking for drives to put in my nas, decided against that one
[12:13] <jacobw> i'm trying to remember the name of the informatics guy who starting keeping statistics on everything quantifiable in his life after losing his father
[12:13] <jacobw> his graphics are amazing
[12:16] <jacobw> feltron.com
[12:19] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920000617.do + the books of Edward Tufte
[12:19] <MartijnVdS> http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi
[12:20] <MartijnVdS> http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_be
[12:45]  * jacobw will guy
[12:45] <jacobw> s/guy/buy
[12:45] <MartijnVdS> uh oh
[12:45] <MartijnVdS> don't blame me if you end up begging in the streets :P
[12:45] <MartijnVdS> "But.. MartijnVdS told me to buy all those books!"
[12:47] <jacobw> :)
[12:56] <Lukan27> If I want to show alot of terminal data where do I put it? Can't remember the name
[12:56] <MartijnVdS> Lukan27: less?
[12:56] <MartijnVdS> Lukan27: command --with-long-output | less
[12:57] <MartijnVdS> Lukan27: command --with-long-output > some_file
[12:57] <MartijnVdS> Lukan27: oh wait, to show us?
[12:57] <MartijnVdS> !pastebin | Lukan27
[12:57] <Lukan27> Nono, so other people on this chat can see it
[12:57] <Lukan27> Pastebin, exactly!
[12:57] <Lukan27> Thanks
[14:49] <dogmatic69> lol
[14:49] <dogmatic69> anyone watching tennis?
[14:49] <brobostigon> no.
[14:50] <dogmatic69> my gf is, its some final. The one guy just kicked some side line ref or something. GAME OVER
[14:51] <dogmatic69> Crowd is not happy, paying for a final and watching for only an hour.
[14:51] <brobostigon> understandable. yes.
[15:39] <jacobw> bloop
[15:45]  * lazarus_ wonders if there is a way to remove android(or dualbot) and put ubuntu or somthing like that on my tablet 
[15:47] <penguin42> lazarus_: There are frigs - but generally the problem is that the kernels are special builds for each tablet and the graphics drivers are very random
[15:48] <penguin42> lazarus_: Most userspace stuff would work
[15:51]  * lazarus_ i just dont like android all that much 
[15:52] <brobostigon> pickup the webos source, and play, :)
[15:53] <jacobw> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJ2yWvGnkI
[15:53] <jacobw> lololol
[15:54] <lazarus_> i have an acer icoina tab a200
[15:54] <brobostigon> ouch, the google+ app, is twice as big as the FB one. 14MB, and 29MB.
[16:16] <brobostigon> whats the opinion of tweetdeck compared to seesmic on android. ?
[16:28] <mgdm> brobostigon: never used seesmic, but I liked Tweetdeck
[16:29] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, thank you.
[17:56] <mgdm> I see SSDs are now approaching 50p/gig (at least a quick glance on amazon suggests so)
[17:58] <popey> good news
[17:58] <mgdm> indeed, I might well be tempted to enliven this machine a bit
[17:58] <mgdm> Not right now, though, just bought tickets for Ross Noble :-)
[18:03] <popey> oh nice
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> hmm
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: no-brand SSD or proper ones?
[18:04] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: Crucial and Samsung on Amazon both seemed to be approximately the same price
[18:04] <mgdm> I was being highly unscientific about it
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/674/solid-state-drives.html#filter:q1bKL0pJLXLLTM1JUbJSKi5ITc5My0xOLMnMz1PSgUgG5xeVAOUSi5PhIkBlnkD1JmYmtQA :)
[18:05] <mgdm> got one that gives me the info in real money? :)
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: ask google -- 0.63 EUR in GBP
[18:05] <mgdm> I was kidding :)
[18:05] <mgdm> I'll have another look in a couple of months
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> Though "Silicon Power"
[18:05] <mgdm> don't need one right now
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> Who trusts their data to that
[18:07] <MartijnVdS> whoa, a 512GB from Crucial that's cheapish
[18:37] <penguin42> how cheapish?
[18:38] <MartijnVdS> 361 european money units
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> that's about 290 GBP or 131.5kg
[18:39] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Are those the european money units before the results of the greek vote?
[18:41] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: current ones
[18:41] <penguin42> :-)
[18:41] <penguin42> actually, it's not bad - it's almost 2 GB per GBP
[18:42] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Are they SATA-2 or 3?
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: CT512M4SSD1 Slim
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> SATA-600
[18:44] <popey> ooooo 512GB
[18:44] <popey> 7mm!
[18:44] <popey> tempting
[18:45] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Interesting, the UK crucial site is listing the CT512M4SSD2
[18:46] <penguin42> 272 UK+VAT - so 327 inc
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> hmm
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> the thing I linked to is a big price-comparison site
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> for computer parts
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> so the price I listed is the cheapest it could find for me
[18:50] <penguin42> the 256GB tempts me more - I don't use 512GB
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> I have lots of music as FLAC
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> and a bunch of RAW photos
[18:53]  * penguin42 has 13GB of music, on a USB stick
[18:55] <mgdm> if I use the 'flexible method' of creating a USB installer from the wiki, it fails
[18:55] <mgdm> is unetbootin worth a go?
[18:55] <penguin42> mgdm: These days you should just be able to dd the iso image onto the USB stick
[18:55] <mgdm> (it fails saying it cannot find various files from the CD image)
[18:56] <mgdm> Hmm, didn't think of that
[18:57] <penguin42> mgdm: I think it started working with 11.10; certainly works for 12.04
[18:57] <mgdm> cool
[18:58] <mgdm> I'll give that a blast; thanks
[19:05] <directhex> kingston are doing 128gb ssds for £65 at the mo
[19:05] <directhex> if anyone cares
[19:05] <directhex> http://www.scan.co.uk/shops/kingston/hyperx3k
[19:06] <popey> /dev/sda1            216G  160G   45G  79% /
[19:07] <popey> I'd keep all my photos on my laptop if I had a 512GB one
[19:07] <ali1234> /dev/sda1        80G   30G   47G  39% /
[19:08] <AlanBell> /dev/sda1       216G  125G   80G  61% /
[19:08] <ali1234> how does a SSD increase your FPS?
[19:18] <directhex> ali1234: it reduces stutter, which can help in some benchmarks
[19:23] <ali1234> what is stutter? like loading textures?
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> loading anything of disk too slowly
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> off*
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> models, textures, ...
[19:28] <mgdm> right, well, that works
[19:54] <directhex> ali1234: yeah, or other stuff like MartijnVdS says
[19:55] <directhex> ali1234: it's very uncommon for a modern engine to load 100% of potentially used resources to RAM, games are designed for use on low-ram consoles so spool resources as needed from fixed disk. and spinning rust can cause stutter in many cases
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> hmm
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> what woudl happen if I put an SSD in my PS3
[19:56] <ali1234> i suppose that's a problem if your game is several dvds
[19:56] <directhex> MartijnVdS: depends on the game. there are benchmarks out there
[19:56] <directhex> MartijnVdS: load times can drop from 0-50% if memory serves
[19:57] <ali1234> directhex: have you played lone survivor? it's terrible. 2d game with like 256x160 graphics, and it needs a 3GHz processor to run full speed
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> noice
[19:57] <mgdm> does tasksel not exist any more?
[19:58] <mgdm> (at least by default)
[19:58] <directhex> ali1234: no, i didn't try that one yet
[19:58] <directhex> ali1234: if it's flash, then, well, flash.
[19:58] <directhex> ali1234: nothing makes my wife's pc groan like farmville
[19:58] <ali1234> can't those mono guys rewrite the flash runtime or something, like thewy did with android?
[19:59] <ali1234> actually there was that flash to html5 thing the other day, i should check that out
[19:59] <mgdm> heh
[20:02] <mgdm> Err, where's the font size control gone?
[20:02] <ali1234> gnome-tweak-tool
[20:03] <mgdm> "tool to adjust advanced configuration settings for GNOME"
[20:03] <mgdm> so font sizes are now 'advanced'
[20:03] <ali1234> yes
[20:03] <directhex> mgdm: yes!
[20:03] <mgdm> that's bonkers
[20:03] <ali1234> didn't you get the memo?
[20:03] <ali1234> the user is always wrong
[20:04] <directhex> why adjust them, when they're right by default?
[20:04] <ali1234> you should be thankful anyone even bothered to make gnome-tweak-tool, clearly advanced users should be using dconf directly
[20:04] <ali1234> because advanced users love futzing around on the command line
[20:04]  * AlanBell wonders what exactly gnome-tweak-tool tweaks
[20:04] <mgdm> these ones are wrong
[20:05] <mgdm> also installing gnome-tweak-tool wants to bring in GNOME shell
[20:05] <directhex> mgdm: no, your eyes are wrong. gnome is right!
[20:05]  * directhex wibbles
[20:05] <AlanBell> wow, that actually works really well
[20:06] <ali1234> it's basically the old "appearance" dialog that was removed
[20:06] <AlanBell> oh I like text scaling factor 0.5
[20:06] <mgdm> there's a 'font size' thing in the Universal Access bit
[20:07] <mgdm> however, I've installed MyUnity anyway
[20:07] <ali1234> that text scaling slider is horribly, horribly broken
[20:08] <AlanBell> the accessibility tool text sizing is nowhere near as wide in scope as the gnome-tweak-tool slider
[20:08] <ali1234> because changing the font size resizes in real time, the slider moves under you
[20:08] <AlanBell> yeah, that is a bit daft
[20:08] <ali1234> so if you just hold down the mouse it goes into a loop of resizing
[20:08] <mgdm> AlanBell: it was close enough, for the size, but wouldn't let me change the monospace font
[20:08] <ali1234> then you let go and get a random size
[20:09] <ali1234> i will report that actually
[20:11] <mgdm> I might just reinstall cinammon :-)
[20:13] <ali1234> no, install gnome-fallback
[20:13] <ali1234> it's much better than cinammon
[20:13] <ali1234> you can put panels on any monitor
[20:13] <ali1234> you can move stuff around on them
[20:13] <ali1234> you can put them anywhere you want
[20:17] <mgdm> ooo
[20:21] <ali1234> from now on i'm audioswapping all my bug videos with "entry of the gladiators"
[20:21] <ali1234> starting with this one
[20:24] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-tweak-tool/+bug/1014403
[20:25] <popey> i hear nothing
[20:26] <ali1234> audio swap takes a while to kick in apparently
[20:26] <popey> ah
[20:26] <popey> i would expect the response you get is "file it upstream"
[20:26] <ali1234> yeah
[20:26] <ali1234> i will do that also
[20:26] <popey> cool
[20:26] <ali1234> anyone know where upstream for this is?
[20:26] <popey> gnome bugzilla
[20:27] <ali1234> i like to use launchpad as a staging point for my bugs, because it is so much better than the junk everyone else uses
[20:27] <AlanBell> if someone were to attempt to add such a slider into some bit of unity, where should it go and how should it not fail like that?
[20:28] <ali1234> you can make it not fail by not updating the font size until the user releases the mouse button
[20:28] <ali1234> which is certainly possible with Qt
[20:28] <popey> or not make it a slider
[20:28] <ali1234> i dunno about Gtk though
[20:28] <popey> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-control-center
[20:28] <ali1234> (that setting in Qt works for all widgets btw)
[20:29] <ali1234> so also spinners etc, can be configured to update in real time, or not until the user stops editing them
[20:29] <ali1234> for example, text entry where user types a search query
[20:29] <kane_> hello
[20:29] <ali1234> you know what's annoying? text search where you type "s" and then wait 5 minutes while it lists everything beginning with "s", before you are able to type the next letter of your query
[20:30] <kane_> does anyone no how to get gconf editor
[20:30] <AlanBell> kane_: dconf-editor is the new hotness
[20:30] <ali1234> sudo apt-get install gconf-editor
[20:31] <ali1234> popey: tweak tool is specifically not part of control center, no?
[20:31] <ali1234> it has it's own product
[20:31] <kane_> thanks
[20:32] <AlanBell> kane_: some things are tweaked with dconf-editor now, which is in the dconf-tools package
[20:34] <kane_> yh i just had to change the minimize close and maximize button layout
[20:35] <kane_> is there a way to move the top bar to the bottom ?
[20:36] <ali1234> no
[20:36] <AlanBell> it is probably going to be easier for you to go with the flow and learn to enjoy it at the top
[20:36] <ali1234> no, you should install gnome-fallback and use that instead, you can do whatever you want then
[20:37] <ali1234> including move the panels
[20:37] <AlanBell> or that
[20:37] <kane_> sorry im used to windows im trying lol
[20:37] <kane_> is there a way to change the sensativity of the left bar
[20:37] <AlanBell> cool, unity is a bit different, you do get used to it
[20:38] <AlanBell> sensitivity in what way?
[20:38] <kane_> like it takes longer to come up
[20:38] <kane_> because it comes up when i try and close a internet
[20:38] <AlanBell> argh, don't close the internet /o\
[20:39] <AlanBell> :)
[20:39] <kane_> what
[20:39] <ali1234> internet's closed
[20:39] <AlanBell> there is a setting called launcher reveal pressure and one called laucher reveal edge responsiveness
[20:39] <AlanBell> in compiz-config-settingsmanager
[20:40] <ali1234> i think that can be set from the normal control panel now
[20:40] <AlanBell> I don't have my launcher hiding so I don't know how well they work
[20:40] <mgdm> Ooooh
[20:40] <mgdm> this is the first Linux release to support middle button scroll with the trackpoint properly out of the box
[20:40] <ali1234> i don't have a launcher at all :)
[20:40] <mgdm> though given that I use Macs most of the time these days it feels backwards
[20:42] <AlanBell> ali1234: you can set it to autohide or not from the standard control panel, but tweaking the sensitivity isn't in that
[20:43] <kane_> im confused
[20:43] <ali1234> join the club
[20:43] <ahayzen> Hi, I'm using the mini.iso to install via a network install .... i have just selected linux-generic as the kernel and it is asking me for the drivers to include in the initrd should it be 'generic - include all available drivers' or 'targeted - only include drivers needed for this system'.... are there any disadvantages of using 'targeted' ?
[20:43] <AlanBell> kane_: which bit?
[20:44] <kane_> every bit :S
[20:44] <ali1234> ahayzen: yes. if you install new hardware you won't have drivers for it
[20:45] <ahayzen> so which should i select?
[20:45] <ali1234> well if you targeted
[20:45] <ali1234> you can always rebuild it later
[20:45] <ahayzen> i had to use the mini.iso as I am installing on a system without pae
[20:45] <ahayzen> so what doesn't it include?
[20:45] <ali1234> any drivers for any hardware not currntly plugged in to your computer
[20:45] <AlanBell> kane_: so, the normal systems settings tool shows a bunch of things that can be tweaked, but not all of the little detailed ones, just high level stuff
[20:46] <ali1234> note that initrd only really needs the drivers for devices you intend to boot from
[20:46] <ahayzen> ali1234: ok... so what does the standard Ubuntu install do?
[20:46] <kane_> thanks
[20:46] <ali1234> no idea
[20:46] <ali1234> prbably generic
[20:46] <ahayzen> how much bigger is generic than targeted?
[20:46] <ali1234> again i have no idea
[20:46] <AlanBell> kane_: there is a more detailed tool (several of them actually) to tweak different settings, some of which are a bit hidden for a good reason (like you can mess up your system)
[20:46] <ahayzen> lol
[20:48] <ali1234> seriously, install gnome-fallback, have a nice working system and stop worrying about it
[20:48] <AlanBell> ahayzen: I would go for generic unless you are trying to do something really specific like a thin client with hardly any space
[20:48] <ahayzen> ali1234: Ok thanks for your advice, i think i'm go for generic
[20:48] <ahayzen> alanbell: Thanks :)
[20:48] <AlanBell> ali1234: E: Unable to locate package gnome-fallback
[20:48] <ali1234> it's called gnome-session-fallback
[20:49] <ali1234> be sure to use it in 2D mode though, because compiz 0.9 is really broken
[20:49] <ali1234> you can emable compositing in metacity though, that works fine
[20:52] <AlanBell> ali1234: gnome-session-fallback seems to work fine in quantal with compiz in virtualbox
[20:52] <ali1234> are you sure compiz is really running and it didn't just fall back to metacity?
[20:53] <ali1234> also are you sure it's really working fine? show a screenshot :)
[20:53] <AlanBell> will do in a sec
[20:53] <AlanBell> just installing ccsm to turn on more bling
[20:55] <AlanBell> yay, it zooms the panels as they are not drawn with that nux kookiness
[20:56] <mgdm> hmm, Chrome doesn't show up in the launcher, nor in alt-tab
[20:58] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/screenshots/Screenshot%20from%202012-06-17%2021:57:29.png
[20:58] <ali1234> yeah, that's better than it does in precise
[20:59] <ali1234> i notice the workspace switcher is messed up. does it work?
[20:59] <ali1234> i mean the widget in the bottom right
[20:59] <AlanBell> works fine
[20:59] <ali1234> can you make it a 1 row 4 column layout?
[20:59] <AlanBell> it isn't messed up
[21:00] <AlanBell> heh, thought my VM had frozen up, but I was clicking on my screenshot
[21:00] <ali1234> lol
[21:01] <ali1234> that's the trouble with giving every window zero pixel borders
[21:01] <AlanBell> yeah, 4x1 works fine, the workspace switcher looks like it used to do
[21:01]  * AlanBell tries cube
[21:01] <ali1234> and when you click, it works?
[21:02] <ali1234> in precise if you do this, change the switcher to 4x1, and then click anther workspace, it takes you to a weird n-dimensional desktop that is like a parallel universe
[21:02] <AlanBell> yeah, clicking worked
[21:02] <AlanBell> and now clicking rotates the cube
[21:02] <ali1234> your panels disappear and to get them back you have to go to screen 1 of the parallel universe desktop and click on where they should be, then they come back
[21:03] <ali1234> this is due to gnome and unity-compiz having different ideas about virtual desktops, and the widget tries to switch between the two modes, but doesn't quite manage it
[21:03] <AlanBell> I am struggling to find fault with this
[21:03] <ali1234> yeah
[21:03] <ali1234> seems like all the bugs have been fixed
[21:04] <ali1234> i can't really think of any others except the overall slowness of compiz 0.9 compared to 0.8
[21:04] <ali1234> but that's hard to measure in a VM
[21:04] <AlanBell> most of that is because the mouse position polling is set to 40ms
[21:05] <AlanBell> set it to 1 and it all goes silky smooth
[21:05] <ali1234> no it isn't
[21:05] <ali1234> that makes no difference to eg. fullscreen games
[21:05] <ali1234> with compiz 0.9 everything is capped at 30fps on my system
[21:06] <AlanBell> oh, I don't play games
[21:06] <AlanBell> I might go try get my patch to the mouse polling accepted
[21:07] <AlanBell> bug 930783
[21:07] <mgdm> is there a Twitter client or Linux worth talking about, or am I going back to tweetdeck?
[21:07] <TheFred> hello
[21:07] <kane_> hi
[21:07] <TheFred> Hi kane_
[21:08] <AlanBell> mgdm: polly works fine for me
[21:08] <ali1234> mgdm: isn't that what gwibber does?
[21:08] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] My First Fathers Day - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/06/17/my-first-fathers-day/
[21:08] <mgdm> ali1234: gwibber is a terrible joke
[21:09] <ali1234> but... it's the default program!
[21:09] <TheFred> just wondering if anyone knows how to turn a .py file that needs htop into a .deb file?
[21:09] <ali1234> that means it is the best one
[21:10] <ali1234> TheFred: why does it need htop?
[21:10] <ali1234> i hope you're not screenscraping...
[21:10] <TheFred> it uses popen to fetch system details
[21:10] <TheFred> nope - its not screensraping
[21:11] <ali1234> yes it is :(
[21:11] <TheFred> really?
[21:11] <ali1234> you're parsing the output of htop
[21:11] <ali1234> just get the information directly
[21:11] <TheFred> i though sreen sraping was html realted?
[21:11] <ali1234> same thing
[21:11] <TheFred> aha
[21:11] <ali1234> and same problems
[21:12] <ali1234> output of htop changes, your program breaks
[21:12] <TheFred> no problems with it - it works really well
[21:12] <ali1234> what information are you looking for?
[21:12] <ali1234> there's almost certainly a more compatible way to get it
[21:12] <TheFred> only thing is now i want to package it into a .deb file
[21:13] <ali1234> packaging is a black art that few understand
[21:13] <TheFred> well then, i guess i want to learn a black art :)
[21:13]  * TheFred goes back to google search
[21:20] <AlanBell> TheFred: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[21:20] <AlanBell> http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/ even
[21:20] <TheFred> thanks AlanBell, thats what im re-reading :)
[21:21] <ali1234> AlanBell: did that guide help you at all?
[21:22] <AlanBell> ali1234: well it is kind of like the total perspective vortex
[21:22] <ali1234> it's extremely bzr-centric too
[21:22] <TheFred> erm, well, yes and no.... its the control file section that has me slightly confused: the correct syntax for dependancies in particular
[21:23] <AlanBell> if you read that, and the Debian manual it really gives you a sense of how small and insignificant the sum total of your knowledge really is
[21:23] <ali1234> heh
[21:23] <ali1234> maybe i'm arrogant but it just made me think "this is pointlessly complicated"
[21:23] <mgdm> that was my experience, too; on the other hand, I'm awfully lazy
[21:23] <TheFred> AlanBell, yup,plus im honing my android-app skills
[21:24] <mgdm> Android apps are child's play compared to debian packaging :P
[21:24] <AlanBell> yeah, you kind of need to know about 20 years of evolution of packaging systems to know which one to use on which package
[21:25] <TheFred> AlanBell, Im going for the 'try it on my system - and it it works then ask others to test it' approach
[21:25] <TheFred> namely family an friends
[21:25] <ali1234> if i have a standard "make; make install" package, why isn't there a tool that can do it all for me?
[21:25] <AlanBell> I think there is
[21:25] <TheFred> the short answer is that there is
[21:25] <ali1234> similarly, if i have a "python setup.py install" based source, why isn't there a tool that can do it automatically?
[21:26] <AlanBell> pkgme should do that, amongst others
[21:26] <ali1234> note: this tool should not rely on the source being in any particular VCS
[21:26] <ali1234> there's simply no reason for that
[21:26] <AlanBell> what I am struggling with is a package with a single executable python script in it
[21:26] <TheFred> heh +1 AlanBell
[21:26] <ali1234> well, doing a setup.py for that shoud be trivial
[21:26] <AlanBell> laney helped sort it out in some mysterious way, I must get my GPG keys sorted so I can upload it
[21:27] <ali1234> the stupid part is i can explain to a 100% total noob how to download and install my software from source, but i can't comprehend how to make a package
[21:27] <TheFred> AlanBell, ye, it took a while to go through the tutorials and get my GPG and SSH keys uploaded
[21:27] <ali1234> why is packaging so much harder than installing from source?
[21:28] <TheFred> because you have to put together the program + install instructins to make it easy to install
[21:28] <ali1234> as i just said, i can do that
[21:28] <ali1234> that isn't the hard part of packaging
[21:28] <TheFred> oh
[21:29] <TheFred> what is, for you?
[21:29] <ali1234> making the package
[21:30] <TheFred> i dont understand, you can make the control file, but have fails with the actual packaging method>?
[21:30] <ali1234> writing the control file, yes, that's the hard part
[21:30] <TheFred> aha, that i do understand :)
[21:30] <ali1234> also writing the rules file and the changelog file
[21:31] <ali1234> and then putting them into a directory
[21:31] <ali1234> and then figuring out where to put the source so that it actually works
[21:31] <ali1234> and then how to turn all that into a .deb
[21:31] <TheFred> yup, its try and try again until its nailed into our memory :)
[21:32] <ali1234> and then once you've done that, how to update it
[21:32] <TheFred> thats a good point, 1 not considered yet
[21:32] <TheFred> updates that it...
[21:33] <TheFred> at this point i think that the version number dictates which package is seen as newer, so as long as the user gets the 0.2.0 .deb (newest) then thats all there is to it
[21:33] <TheFred> I expect i have a lot more to digest :(
[21:34]  * AlanBell runs sudo virtualbox
[21:34] <ali1234> another problem is packages have a load of fields that i don't understand what i'm supposed to put in them
[21:34] <TheFred> thats a great tip AlanBell
[21:35] <AlanBell> TheFred: not generally adviseable! I am booting my old hard disk attached in a USB enclosure as the root drive of a VM
[21:35] <TheFred> whoa - take care there!
[21:36] <AlanBell> there is probably a way to let a non-root user have that much access to the device, but this works
[21:36] <AlanBell> I had encrypted home directory on it so I can only get stuff off it by booting it
[21:37] <TheFred> for a moment i thought you meant to imply that i use a vm as a sterile environment to work on packaging
[21:37] <TheFred> aha
[21:37] <ali1234> "debian/compat This file should contain the number 8. This is a magic number. Do not put any other number in there. "
[21:38] <ali1234> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
[21:38] <AlanBell> TheFred: no (but that is a reasonable idea) I am trying to get back my GPG keys
[21:39] <TheFred> ali1234, where did you read that? I've not seen that yet... its not some april fools thing is it?
[21:39] <ali1234> http://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging
[21:39] <TheFred> AlanBell, the old forgotten passphrase thing eh?
[21:40] <TheFred> ali1234, wow - so it does, but thats the first time i've read that when searching about this
[21:41] <TheFred> ali1234, ah - thats ONLY for debhelper tho
[21:43] <AlanBell> this is the hard thing, do magic thing "foo" for easy fully automated packaging tool "bar"
[21:43] <AlanBell> and there are so many packaging tools
[21:43] <ali1234> yeah
[21:44] <ali1234> and just look at quickly
[21:44] <ali1234> it will make a package for you in one step
[21:44] <AlanBell> but luckily we now have pkgme as one universal packaging tool that covers everyones use cases
[21:44] <AlanBell> http://xkcd.com/927/
[21:44] <ali1234> unfortunately you have to use bzr, and your program has to have a main window with a file menu and a help screen and etc
[21:47] <TheFred> hmmm, according to Google there are no pkgme tutorials....
[21:49] <TheFred> With the recent push of Quickly, i'd expect there to be more info about using quickly to build packages NOT build using Glade...
[21:49] <ali1234> quickly uses templates
[21:49] <ali1234> in theory it can make any type of package
[21:49] <ali1234> however in practice making templates is even more complicated than making debs
[21:50] <ali1234> eg http://www.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3a-Inside-Quickly-part-6
[21:51] <ali1234> if you can understand any of that you're smarter than i am
[21:51] <TheFred> ali1234, thanks for the url, i'll take a look..
[21:53] <ali1234> it might help if the existing templates weren't such a mess of all different stuff
[21:53] <TheFred> ali1234, yea, its a translation from french, so its not exactly fluid in its explanation
[21:53] <ali1234> that's not the problem at all
[21:54] <ali1234> the problem is that "how to make quickly templates" is "you write this file, and you define commands in it to do whatever you want"
[21:54] <ali1234> ok great. what commands? what should they do?
[21:54] <ali1234> who knows?
[21:55] <ali1234> effectively according to that explanation, quickly is as technically useful as a bash script, except it's written in python (or not, you can use anything you want lol)
[21:55] <ali1234> so, what exactly is the point of it again?
[21:56] <AlanBell> just wait until you see juju
[21:56] <AlanBell> anyhow, night all o/
[21:56] <ali1234> i've seen it
[21:56] <TheFred> juju?
[21:56] <TheFred> gnite AlanBell
[21:56] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps :)
[21:56] <mgdm> 'ello bigcalm
[21:56] <ali1234> juju is like quickly but for servers
[21:56] <mgdm> bigcalm: tell me what I should blog about?
[21:57] <bigcalm> mgdm: whisky
[21:57] <mgdm> I was considering Whisky Web, actually
[21:57] <mgdm> but I've nothing to say about that that others haven't already said
[21:57] <ali1234> it's really simple as long as what you want to do happens to be exactly the same as the person who wrote the juju charm (which is a fancy way of saying "install script")
[21:57] <mgdm> 'juju charm'
[21:57] <mgdm> already I want nothing to do with it
[21:59] <ali1234> juju even has the same kind of "lock-in to the developer's favourite platform" as quickly does
[21:59] <mgdm> I have an app that I'd quite like to write in Python, but it'd need to run on Linux and Mac OS X, and have a not-too-ugly GUI
[21:59] <mgdm> I wonder if such a thing is attainable
[21:59] <ali1234> since it insists on managing all your virtual machines, you *have* t run it against AWS or an expensive dedicated server
[22:00] <popey> or lxc
[22:00] <ali1234> it's completely useless if you have an unmanaged VPS
[22:00] <ali1234> lxc requires bare metal/dedicated server
[22:01] <popey> i prototype juju charms on my laptop using lxc
[22:01] <shauno> mgdm: depending on your definition of ugly; eg Calibre is primarily python, and runs on win/lin/osx
[22:01] <popey> so yeah, bare metal
[22:01] <ali1234> a laptop running ubuntu is bare metal
[22:02] <ali1234> specifically it's bare metal with ubuntu installed on it, as opposed to some virtual machine with ubuntu installed on it
[22:02] <mgdm> shauno: I find Calibre ugly but I think that's largely due to the choices of the developer :-) Do you know what toolkit it uses?
[22:03] <shauno> no idea, sorry
[22:03] <ali1234> mgdm: it's qt4
[22:03] <mgdm> no worries, I'll play about
[22:03] <mgdm> ali1234: ah ha
[22:04] <ali1234> python-qt4 to be specific
[22:04] <TheFred> mgdm, i worked through the Quickly tutorials, and found that Glade can have great results
[22:04] <ali1234> don't even get me started on glade
[22:04] <ali1234> it can have great results if you remember to save every 5 minutes because of the constant crashing
[22:04] <mgdm> I've used Glade on occasion, with PyGTK and PHP-GTK (!)
[22:05]  * TheFred keeps quite about glade
[22:05] <ali1234> mgdm: Qt is the best toolkit for cross platform by a long long way
[22:05] <ali1234> and i agree that calibre is ugly. it isn't Qt's fault though
[22:06] <ali1234> Qt can do anything from perfect OS-styled to completely dynamic mobile touch interfaces, without even trying
[22:09] <ali1234> what Qt lacks is a HIG
[22:09] <shauno> I wasn't trying to pick a contentious example :)  just the only one I've used on all three, that I happened to know was python
[22:09] <ali1234> but that's because it's desktop-agnostic
[22:10] <ali1234> plenty of stuff is written in Qt... most times you won't even know
[22:10] <ali1234> you really can make your app look however you want
[22:10] <ali1234> every widget supports full CSS styling, if you want that
[22:10] <ali1234> or you can just ignore it and get it perfectly integrated with the OS look and feel
[22:11] <ali1234> packaging python-qt apps for windows is a bit tricky though
[22:11] <ali1234> but then again, not more tricky that for debian
[22:12] <TheFred> Im wondering if quickly can be used to package a simple python program...
[22:13] <ali1234> someone who understands how to package a simple python program would have to make a template
[22:13] <ali1234> and if i knew how to do that, i wouldn't need quickly to do it for me... so yeah
[22:15] <ali1234> i think it has a command-line template, maybe you can use that
[22:16] <ali1234> called ubuntu-cli
[22:16] <TheFred> well, looking the diretory structure of a non-built quickly program reveals a lot
[22:17] <ali1234> try this
[22:17] <ali1234> quickly create ubuntu-cli myapp
[22:17] <ali1234> then copy your python file over myapp/bin/myapp
[22:17] <TheFred> ah  ok, one moment
[22:17] <ali1234> then that's it :)
[22:18] <TheFred> WOW
[22:18] <ali1234> oh and delete that myapp/ folder :)
[22:18] <TheFred> I think thats gold :)
[22:18] <ali1234> or put your source in there, and run it from the other bit
[22:18] <ali1234> yeah it looks good
[22:18] <TheFred> why delete the myapp/ directory?
[22:19] <ali1234> well you don't need it if you really only need one file
[22:19] <TheFred> hmmm, i see
[22:19] <ali1234> probably better to use it as intended, if you can figure that out
[22:20] <ali1234> then quickly package
[22:22] <TheFred> so, does the original myapp.py file need to be deleted/changed in any way?
[22:22] <TheFred> or
[22:22] <ali1234> depends
[22:22] <TheFred> say my python program is call mytest.py
[22:22] <ali1234> it really depends what you need
[22:22] <TheFred> and i create a project call mytest.py
[22:22] <TheFred> forget it ... i'll test it and see :)
[22:24] <ali1234> another option is drop your python source over myapp/myapp/__init__.py
[22:24] <TheFred> what does that do?
[22:24] <TheFred> doh - yes of course
[22:25] <ali1234> it's where myapp imports myapp.main() from
[22:25] <ali1234> (yeah not confusing at all right?)
[22:26] <TheFred> __init__.py calls myapp.py .... so if ireplace __init__.py with mytest.py (the single simply python program) then it *should* go ok
[22:26] <TheFred> only way to know is to try
[22:26]  * TheFred goes to see if it works
[22:26] <ali1234> yeah
[22:28] <TheFred> aha - i just appended my simple python program to the main() method of __init__.py and *it works* :->
[22:28] <ali1234> yeah it would
[22:28] <ali1234> AlanBell: this would all probably work for you too ^
[22:29] <ali1234> i love how "quickly save" doesn't ask you for a commit message
[22:29] <ali1234> yet more proof bzr users don't actually care about history
[22:31] <TheFred> ali1234, i think a commit message can be added via launchpad/etc.... i may be wrong tho
[22:32] <ali1234> you can probably just bzr commit -a (or whatever the syntax is)
[22:32] <ali1234> but really, if you're happy with bzr you're probably not planning to ever look at the commit log anyway
[22:35] <TheFred> bzr is high on tommorows To Learn list - if the Tide and weather mean i cant go rowing that is :)
[22:39] <TheFred> ali1234, just a word of warning, if you use Gedit, make sure any ~ temp files are deleted before running quickly package!
[22:40] <ali1234> i always disable gedit backups
[22:40] <ali1234> no reason for them if you use a CVS
[22:40] <ali1234> of course git isn't stupid enough to commit them in the first place
[22:40] <ali1234> but they are still annoying
[22:41] <TheFred> Im testing the .deb file on another system,just to be sure..
[22:42] <ali1234> good idea
[22:43] <TheFred> hmm, just had software center warn that the package was of bad quality...
[22:44] <TheFred> whoohoo, yup although it complained it run ok, no need for the old 'python mytest.py', all i had to do way enter 'myapp' into terminal and pop, there it is :)
[22:45] <ali1234> well i can tell you exactly how to fix that
[22:45] <TheFred> im all ears :)
[22:45] <ali1234> put !#/usr/bin/env python on first line of your python script and then chmod a+x it
[22:45] <TheFred> aha
[22:46] <ali1234> and it doesn't need to be .py either
[22:46] <TheFred> ah, i thought you meant fixing the warning from the software center about it being a bad package...
[22:47] <ali1234> that's cos you didn't sign it
[22:47] <ali1234> you need to set up gpg keys
[22:47] <ali1234> that's a whole other mess
[22:47] <ali1234> i notice that quickly uses #!/usr/bin/python
[22:47] <ali1234> that's wrong
[22:48] <TheFred> ah yes, I *do* have GPG keys ready for signing it :), i will try that now
[22:57] <TheFred> damit
[22:57] <TheFred> i've found that signing a cli program with quickly seems different to the Glade projects
[22:58] <ali1234> report a bug. it shouldn't be
[22:58] <TheFred> let me be clear: quickly sign ends with 'ERROR: No sign command found in template ubuntu-cli.'
[22:59] <TheFred> I culd have sworn that 'quickly sign myapp' worked on the tutorial
[22:59]  * TheFred revisits quickly tutorial :(
[22:59] <ali1234> template: ubuntu-cli
[22:59] <ali1234> it's a bug, the template is missing that command
[23:00] <ali1234> this is why overly generic templating systems are a terrible terrible idea
[23:00] <ali1234> actually, is that really the right command?
[23:01] <TheFred> I'll see if i can work around it, and report a bug if there's not one already
[23:01] <ali1234> nice, quickly does the gpg stuff for you
[23:02] <ali1234> that's something to be happy about
[23:02] <ali1234> i need some more entropy though. lalala
[23:02] <TheFred> doh.... its
[23:02] <TheFred> 'quickly license'
[23:02] <ali1234> uh... so it makes a key and tells you to upload it. fair enough. but it doesn't tell me where it created the key
[23:03] <TheFred> for me it was in my home directory, its in passwords and keys
[23:04] <ali1234> are you sure that signs it?
[23:05] <ali1234> it looks like it just prompts you to set up the iicense
[23:07] <TheFred> yea, thats what im thinking right now too
[23:07] <ali1234> we should go annoy the people in #quickly by having that conversation there instead of here
[23:07] <TheFred> I changed the Authors file,but just got a fail with no error or reason
[23:08] <TheFred> yoou mean there's #quickly.... lemmeatem' :)