| knome | yeah, i'm wondering if that is technically still used | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| knome | otoh, it's not a ubuntu pkg | 00:00 |
| knome | .. i think | 00:00 |
| knome | see https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-artwork | 00:01 |
| knome | oh wait | 00:01 |
| knome | yeah, there is the quantal pkg too | 00:01 |
| knome | so the project is probably needed technically | 00:02 |
| knome | i updated the description | 00:02 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 00:03 |
| knome | anyway, got to go. going to a confirmation party tomorrow and need to get up in less than 6 hours | 00:09 |
| knome | see you! | 00:09 |
| pleia2 | night :) | 00:16 |
| === madnick_ is now known as mandnick | ||
| === mandnick is now known as madnick | ||
| micahg | pleia2: packagesets have nothing to do with the upstream projects | 04:27 |
| Dave_H | Morning all | 10:51 |
| astraljava | Heheh, knome, pleia2, well the other day, Scott updated the xfce4-utils replacement to the natty source tree on the Studio side as well. Maybe it's not giving up just yet. :) | 12:42 |
| astraljava | knome: pleia2: I'm a little behind schedule. Can either of you start the meeting in half an hour? I should be available to join in a little later. | 15:29 |
| pleia2 | micahg: xubuntu-desktop is considered upstream? | 15:51 |
| pleia2 | but yeah, I don't know how packagesets work so I was just guessting :) | 15:54 |
| pleia2 | -t | 15:54 |
| FiltroMan | Hi guys! | 15:58 |
| ochosi | hullo | 15:59 |
| pleia2 | hello | 15:59 |
| FiltroMan | perfectly in time for the rendez-vous :D | 15:59 |
| pleia2 | knome: you about? | 16:00 |
| cc_INC | Today Q&A right?!?! | 16:01 |
| cc_INC | Am I on time?! | 16:01 |
| FiltroMan | yes | 16:01 |
| pleia2 | yes, calm down :) | 16:01 |
| FiltroMan | Hi :D | 16:01 |
| cc_INC | Enthusiasm...sorry | 16:01 |
| pleia2 | astraljava is going to be a bit late | 16:02 |
| astraljava | Alright, can I get a show of hands for the participants of Xubuntu QA meeting? | 16:02 |
| astraljava | Heheh. :) | 16:02 |
| pleia2 | oh yay! | 16:02 |
| pleia2 | want to #startmeeting? | 16:02 |
| FiltroMan | here am I | 16:02 |
| astraljava | pleia2: No, I don't think we need that today. | 16:02 |
| pleia2 | ok | 16:02 |
| cc_INC | o/ | 16:02 |
| * hobgoblin listens at the touchline | 16:02 | |
| astraljava | I'll give it a minute for other hands to be raised, and then I'll introduce a free-form agenda I have in mind for today. | 16:03 |
| FiltroMan | I apologize in advance, if I'll be a bit late at answering, because I'm updating my system (I'm running on a P3) | 16:04 |
| cc_INC | P3, nice! :) | 16:05 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan: I'll try to keep this meeting a little bit more informal than the usual meeting. I'm not in a hurry today, I intend to be here chatting with as many, topics and users, as possible. | 16:05 |
| astraljava | That's why I don't think we need to make the bot keep minutes of today. | 16:05 |
| FiltroMan | Oh lovely :) | 16:06 |
| astraljava | But still, I'd like to have the topic confined to QA issues only. | 16:06 |
| astraljava | We can't hold the channel hostage all day long. :) | 16:06 |
| ochosi | astraljava: to the worst you can always create a new chan ;) | 16:06 |
| astraljava | Ok, so it looks to be us, then. Anyone is free to join later if feels like it. | 16:06 |
| astraljava | Hi ochosi, yes of course, if we're being threatened around here. :) | 16:07 |
| FiltroMan | c'mon guys... we shouldn't go off topic that often | 16:07 |
| astraljava | So, welcome everyone, and thanks for showing interest! | 16:08 |
| astraljava | I should probably introduce myself quickly, if anyone's wondering why I'm here doing most of the "formal" style of talking. | 16:08 |
| astraljava | During the precise cycle, I took more part in Xubuntu development, not really on the low-level technical part, but being the handyman and trying to help wherever. | 16:09 |
| Os_Maleus | astraljava: yes, please! and a short info, how this works here. ;-) (for the first time participating on such a thing. | 16:09 |
| astraljava | Hello Os_Maleus, I'll try. :) | 16:09 |
| astraljava | Since precise was an LTS, we needed to pay a lot of attention to quality, and I think we did a decent job. | 16:09 |
| astraljava | What that means is that a lot of testing was involved. | 16:10 |
| astraljava | Our primary means of doing the testing consist of testing the daily images, and milestone releases. | 16:10 |
| astraljava | The latter ones are called Alpha-1, Alpha-2, Beta-1, Beta-2, and then the various amounts of Release Candidates, which usually are desired to be limited to a number of one only, but occasionally we need more if really grave bugs are found that late in the cycle. | 16:11 |
| astraljava | Previously the image testing results were only tracked for the milestones, and the place for them is http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com | 16:12 |
| astraljava | But nowadays you can file results for dailies there as well. | 16:13 |
| astraljava | Anyone is free to file results there, it only requires a username there, which is easiest to do with a ubuntu openid login. | 16:13 |
| astraljava | If you wanna have a look at the site now, I'll give you a minute or two for that, cause I know that you're already that impatient. :) | 16:14 |
| hobgoblin | didn't know you could file for dailies - would have done that the other day :) | 16:14 |
| pleia2 | yeah, it's great | 16:15 |
| FiltroMan | well organized | 16:15 |
| hobgoblin | pleia2: well I can do that more or less daily :) | 16:15 |
| astraljava | It is well organized, yes, but for Xubuntu, it still needs a few tweaks. | 16:16 |
| astraljava | I'm talking about testcases of course. | 16:16 |
| FiltroMan | Obviously | 16:17 |
| FiltroMan | On there is also possible to file the documentation? | 16:17 |
| cc_INC | So basically what you are saying is that you need more testers? | 16:17 |
| astraljava | We're wanting to make a change to the classifications, and the procedures. | 16:17 |
| pleia2 | cc_INC: we always need more testers :) | 16:17 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: That, too. :) | 16:17 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan: Could you elaborate on that, please? | 16:17 |
| cc_INC | Cool. I have never participated in something like this. | 16:18 |
| FiltroMan | I was meaning, that the official documentation revisioning has to be posted always into the daily schedule or somewhere else? | 16:18 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan: Are you referring to the testcase description? | 16:19 |
| FiltroMan | Also | 16:19 |
| FiltroMan | I'll try to explain better | 16:19 |
| FiltroMan | I received the mail with the date and time for this rendezvous by Paasi, after I've applied for a role of grammar revisor for Xubuntu-Docs | 16:20 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan: Ahh... no. That's a bit different. | 16:20 |
| cc_INC | Can I ask a very quick question regarding quality control? | 16:20 |
| pleia2 | doc review will have its own procedures for reviewing (not QA) | 16:20 |
| FiltroMan | Oh... | 16:21 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan: Sadly I'm not very well versed on how the documentation team is doing. Of course it has to do with QA, but not as directly. | 16:21 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Sure. | 16:21 |
| FiltroMan | I'd better to save the whole log of this session (for my personal culture ;D) and send a mail to Paasi | 16:21 |
| FiltroMan | Don't you think? | 16:21 |
| pleia2 | all logs of this channel are available on irclogs.ubuntu.com for reference :) | 16:22 |
| cc_INC | On all of my boxes Xubuntu generates an error report whenever something crashes or isn't working properly. Does this error report get sent to the proper people?! | 16:22 |
| cc_INC | Just wondering.. | 16:22 |
| pleia2 | Pasi (knome) will send out more information about doc team stuff when we have things further organized, but you're welcome to ask specific questions of him | 16:22 |
| FiltroMan | Perfect! | 16:22 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: It asks whether you want to file a bug about that, doesn't it? It won't automatically, but if you file the bug with apport, then yes, it's possible. | 16:23 |
| pleia2 | I'm just not sure we've actually made enough plans for docs review to actually answer your questions right now, the docs haven't been updated in several cycle | 16:23 |
| pleia2 | s | 16:23 |
| pleia2 | (perhaps we should plan a docs team meeting too :)) | 16:23 |
| cc_INC | I always file bugs....figure you could do something with the info | 16:23 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: One moment, I'll link to the apport mechanism. | 16:23 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport | 16:24 |
| cc_INC | With this in mind, I would love to help out with testing. Given if there is a proper procedure in place to help us new to testing so we get started the right way. | 16:24 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: There is. And I was really getting to that, next. :) | 16:24 |
| cc_INC | Thanks astraljava | 16:24 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, there is | 16:25 |
| astraljava | So as I was saying, on the ISO tracker, there are the testcases listed. | 16:25 |
| astraljava | At the moment we're in the process of renewing their decriptions. | 16:25 |
| astraljava | descriptions* | 16:25 |
| astraljava | So far we have one made to the point where we're happy with it. It doesn't mean, though, that it cannot be changed anymore. | 16:26 |
| astraljava | It can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short | 16:26 |
| astraljava | Do you wanna go through it now? I can give you 2 minutes for that. | 16:26 |
| hobgoblin | astraljava: so is the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short not for use now? | 16:27 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: That was the old one. | 16:27 |
| astraljava | We made it a little more to the point. | 16:27 |
| hobgoblin | cos that's what I used the other day and had some comments on | 16:27 |
| hobgoblin | k | 16:27 |
| pleia2 | astraljava: a couple quick questions before going through it? | 16:27 |
| astraljava | While you're reading, I'll talk about it a little. It's called Short, because we wanted the testers to be really able to go through that for the dailies as well. | 16:28 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Sure. | 16:28 |
| hobgoblin | is there going to be a replacement for the Long one? | 16:28 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: Yes. | 16:28 |
| hobgoblin | k | 16:28 |
| pleia2 | so right now on the QA tracker you go to the livecd test page like: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/219/builds/17405/testcases/129/results and it links to http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopLiveSession | 16:28 |
| pleia2 | would this /Short test replace that Ubuntu-specific live session? or does the /Short go somewhere else not currently linked to the QA tracker? | 16:29 |
| astraljava | pleia2: We're wanting to link to that soon enough. Maybe the /Long would need to be updated first, though, as well. | 16:30 |
| pleia2 | ok, where does /Long fit into the QA tracker, an extension of http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation ? | 16:30 |
| pleia2 | (DesktopPostInstallation is Ubuntu-specific too, but you can complete all the tasks on Xubuntu) | 16:31 |
| astraljava | I'm thinking it'd be especially used for milestone releases. | 16:31 |
| astraljava | There is the post-installation part in the /Short as well. | 16:31 |
| pleia2 | I guess what I'm trying to figure out is precisely where these /Short and /Long tests go with regard to the QA tracker, since right now they're not really in the iso tracker workflow | 16:32 |
| pleia2 | so people don't know about them :) | 16:32 |
| astraljava | Yes, it's a good point. | 16:32 |
| astraljava | I think what we were thinking of is that we have the basic testcase for all *buntus. Then we have the Xubuntu-specific parts, which are our /Short and /Long. | 16:33 |
| astraljava | We need to tweak the link in the http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com to suit our needs. | 16:34 |
| astraljava | links* | 16:34 |
| pleia2 | ok, so I think we should keep this in mind as we move forward with the /Short /Long rewrites, since they will have to fit somewhere in this workflow (maybe it doesn't make sense to have a post-installation section of the /Short) | 16:34 |
| astraljava | But the main idea is that half of the image testing is the same for all flavors and the vanilla. | 16:34 |
| astraljava | pleia2: It does, as part of the ISO testing is also to keep track of the applications and the integration of them in the desktop env. | 16:35 |
| pleia2 | ok | 16:35 |
| pleia2 | my other question - we intend to move /Short and /Long to the QA wiki once we've finished writing, right? | 16:35 |
| astraljava | Yes. | 16:35 |
| pleia2 | ok, great :) | 16:35 |
| pleia2 | that's all from me, proceed! | 16:35 |
| astraljava | Thanks! :) Dailies testing can become tedious and consuming, that's why the /Short needs to stay short. | 16:36 |
| * pleia2 nods | 16:36 | |
| astraljava | But enough to gather the most important things of the distribution and its most used parts. | 16:36 |
| pleia2 | last cycle it was very unclear to me whether the /Short and /Long were even used because I just followed the QA wiki test cases, not the short and long | 16:37 |
| astraljava | So my question to the new people around here is, how do you feel about it now that you've glanced through it? | 16:37 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Yeah. That's one part I wanted to pay much more attention to QA procedures from now on. | 16:37 |
| hobgoblin | it all worked ok for me the other day - except I had the old short page lol - didn't know that I could go to the tracker or I'd have filed a bug | 16:38 |
| pleia2 | (btw new people: it's ok to say the QA tracker looks confusing and you need help, I sure did) | 16:38 |
| hobgoblin | or two | 16:38 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan, cc_INC, hobgoblin, Os_Maleus especially, have you read through the document yet? | 16:38 |
| hobgoblin | pleia2: I will :) | 16:38 |
| hobgoblin | yes | 16:38 |
| cc_INC | you mean this document https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short | 16:38 |
| cc_INC | right? | 16:38 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yes. | 16:38 |
| cc_INC | Cause you guys were talking about Short, Long, Testcase Q&A kinda lost me for a moment :) | 16:39 |
| astraljava | Oh, and GridCube, hi! I saw your nick flash by there earlier. :) | 16:39 |
| pleia2 | cc_INC: sorry :) | 16:39 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yes, sorry about that. :) | 16:39 |
| cc_INC | Yeah I read it. Is quite clear, simpel steps that have to be followed, | 16:39 |
| GridCube | sup astraljava :) | 16:40 |
| astraljava | Again, I want to stress, this is not a very formal meeting. I want a more cozy and relaxed atmosphere here, feel free to voice your questions and concerns about anything. :) | 16:40 |
| GridCube | theres some sort of meeting? | 16:40 |
| astraljava | GridCube: A little bit like that. :) | 16:40 |
| GridCube | :) ok | 16:40 |
| GridCube | im zsyncking images once or twice a week now | 16:40 |
| cc_INC | So maybe a stupid question from the newbie. | 16:40 |
| GridCube | but i havent done any tests | 16:40 |
| cc_INC | But where does one post the "resluts" of the test?! | 16:41 |
| GridCube | university is on final month | 16:41 |
| astraljava | GridCube: That's alright, that's why we have these new people around here now. :) | 16:41 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Ok. Have you logged in to the site, yet? | 16:41 |
| cc_INC | You mean this site: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker | 16:41 |
| cc_INC | ? | 16:41 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yeah. | 16:42 |
| cc_INC | Not yet...(doing so as we speak) | 16:42 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, :P then you can't | 16:42 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Ok, once you've done so, you will see the currently open milestones. Yes, dailies is a milestone, too. :) | 16:42 |
| astraljava | We should have a look at 'Quantal Daily', when you've logged in to the site. Can everyone intested do that right now? It's much easier and more beneficial to do talk about stuff when you see everything we see at the same time. | 16:43 |
| astraljava | interested* | 16:43 |
| astraljava | to talk about* | 16:43 |
| astraljava | gah... where'd my typing go today? | 16:44 |
| pleia2 | :) | 16:44 |
| cc_INC | Oh snap...forgot my password...sorry.... | 16:44 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: No worries, we are not in a hurry. :) | 16:44 |
| cc_INC | astraljava Thanks, I feel a bit embaresed tho :) | 16:45 |
| hobgoblin | :) | 16:45 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: No need. :) I have tens of passwords to even more sites. It's not everyday I forget all of them, but every week at least. :) | 16:46 |
| GridCube | talking about qatracker :( i don't know programing so my idea is not going very far bug: 994816 | 16:47 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 994816 in Ubuntu QA Website "Buttons for adding bugs found in previous builds of a product" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994816 | 16:47 |
| * astraljava is not a webdev, so will likely pass | 16:48 | |
| pleia2 | hehe | 16:48 |
| astraljava | Give me bugs on C/C++ apps, or python, or even perl. But js? | 16:49 |
| astraljava | Nah... | 16:49 |
| GridCube | but adding those buttons to the qatracker would make testing so damn better | 16:49 |
| astraljava | I'm gonna give it 2 minutes still. Let me know with the now legendary 'o/' sign when you're done with logging to the site. | 16:50 |
| GridCube | like "this are the known reported bugs you should look at bro" and people go and say "yep i still see them sis" or "nope they arent they anymore!" | 16:50 |
| astraljava | GridCube: Are you trying to talk me into learning a new script language? | 16:50 |
| GridCube | yes | 16:50 |
| GridCube | :D | 16:50 |
| astraljava | gah | 16:50 |
| * GridCube has to learn visualbasic to make excel forms, don't ask why :( | 16:51 | |
| pleia2 | GridCube: yeah that would be awesome | 16:51 |
| astraljava | You guys are no fun. | 16:51 |
| pleia2 | the "hardware profile" link area also confuses people to know end (the answer to what it is even feels hacky :)) | 16:51 |
| Os_Maleus | my internet was interrupted. here is a stormy wind going around. astraljava, would You like to tell me where I find the log again, please!? | 16:51 |
| pleia2 | know end? | 16:52 |
| pleia2 | no end | 16:52 |
| pleia2 | more coffeee | 16:52 |
| GridCube | Os_Maleus, irclogs.ubuntu.com | 16:52 |
| hobgoblin | http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/17/%23xubuntu-devel.html | 16:52 |
| astraljava | http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/17/%23xubuntu-devel.txt | 16:52 |
| pleia2 | it wouldn't have updated yet | 16:52 |
| astraljava | Well, there you go. | 16:52 |
| GridCube | nope | 16:52 |
| hobgoblin | specifically that one eventually | 16:52 |
| pleia2 | Os_Maleus: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker | 16:52 |
| astraljava | Yeah, but eventually. | 16:52 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Are you willing to participate in this session, still? If so, then do log in on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com. | 16:53 |
| astraljava | Ok, I guess we'll move on now. | 16:53 |
| Os_Maleus | I read the "/short"-thing. sound/seems to be easily performable | 16:53 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Good to hear. | 16:53 |
| astraljava | When you click on the link 'Quantal Daily', you'll see a few testcases. | 16:54 |
| astraljava | err.. products. | 16:54 |
| Os_Maleus | I need to say, that I didn't send reports back, until now. didn't had the time to deal with that, simply. | 16:54 |
| cc_INC | Do I login with my Launchpad details or is this something totally different than launchpad? | 16:54 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, same that lp | 16:54 |
| astraljava | For the record, on your left hand menu, you can limit the products to the ones that appeal to you in the Filters section. | 16:54 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: LP openid works there, too. | 16:55 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Yeah, I mentioned that while you were away, probably. That's why the /Short testcase is really short, now. | 16:55 |
| astraljava | Anyway, if you scroll down enough, you'll find Xubuntu there. | 16:55 |
| astraljava | Let's click on 'Xubuntu Desktop amd64'. | 16:56 |
| astraljava | That's probably going to be used the most. | 16:56 |
| GridCube | mmm | 16:56 |
| GridCube | i wonder if i can do amd64 vbox testings now... | 16:56 |
| astraljava | But of course, if your machine is not capable of handling the instruction set, choose i386. | 16:56 |
| astraljava | Any one of them will do for today's purposes. | 16:57 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, Os_Maleus you should learn to use zsync aswel | 16:57 |
| astraljava | Once you've chosen the product/image you want to test, you'll be facing the various testcase. | 16:57 |
| astraljava | testcases* | 16:57 |
| astraljava | GridCube: Good point, I should cover it now. | 16:57 |
| Os_Maleus | GridCube: zsync? I know Rsync. did You mean that one? | 16:58 |
| astraljava | Select a testcase, for instance, if you only wanna check how the live session works, choose 'Live Session'. (you could not have seen that coming!) | 16:58 |
| GridCube | i know that for some reason zsync is better for isos, cant tell why tho | 16:58 |
| hobgoblin | works well here | 16:58 |
| cc_INC | Okay okay | 16:58 |
| cc_INC | It took me a while but I'm in... | 16:58 |
| pleia2 | Os_Maleus: similar thing, but zsync can grab diffs of the binary iso images (rsync would redownload the whole image if it's changed) | 16:59 |
| astraljava | Once you've selected the testcase, you can see the links to the image, and the description of the case. | 16:59 |
| cc_INC | You can also filter on Xubuntu instead of scrolling down?1 | 16:59 |
| astraljava | If you see the 'Link to the download information', go ahead and click it. | 16:59 |
| GridCube | pleia2, :D that was it! that it downloads only the parts that changed :D | 16:59 |
| astraljava | There you can find the list of images, and on some the ways to acquire them. | 17:00 |
| astraljava | The third one, as GridCube suggested, if very handy for the testers of the daily images. | 17:00 |
| Os_Maleus | I am making my back-ups with rsync. there it is writing the same: only changed files. | 17:00 |
| cc_INC | GridCube I have no clue what zsync is but I pick up things fast. So will dig into it ASAP :) | 17:00 |
| astraljava | It only gets the changed part of the .iso, which will mean a dramatic drop of data flowing through your lines. | 17:01 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, astraljava is explaining now ;) | 17:01 |
| astraljava | As you can see, all the links point to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com | 17:01 |
| astraljava | That is the main server that hosts all the images. | 17:01 |
| astraljava | When you have done some testing, you probably won't need that page anymore, and you'll remember to head directly to that site, if necessary even. | 17:02 |
| hobgoblin | if you want an example I run this cd /mnt/music/Spare/Iso/Daily/ && zsync http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/quantal-desktop-i386.iso.zsync | 17:03 |
| astraljava | Hehe, thanks hobgoblin, I was just about to type that. :) | 17:03 |
| hobgoblin | :) | 17:03 |
| astraljava | Although not under /mnt/music... Why music?! :D | 17:04 |
| astraljava | But yeah. Pay attention to that URL. | 17:04 |
| astraljava | Instead of a date in the link, it has current/ | 17:04 |
| cc_INC | Testing sounds like music to his ears? | 17:04 |
| astraljava | That's very handy, cause then you don't have to know which date has the latest successful image. | 17:04 |
| astraljava | See, sometimes images fail to build. | 17:05 |
| GridCube | :P i have to .sh files with: zsync http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/current/quantal-alternate-i386.iso.zsync | 17:05 |
| astraljava | And for that date, there won't be anything worth your while. | 17:05 |
| GridCube | :D | 17:05 |
| astraljava | But when you replace the date with current/, it'll find the latest directory that has images that can be tested. | 17:05 |
| GridCube | zsync http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/quantal-desktop-i386.iso.zsync | 17:06 |
| astraljava | Anything you want to ask about now? | 17:06 |
| cc_INC | So far I understand it a little bit. | 17:06 |
| astraljava | FiltroMan, Os_Maleus, still with us? | 17:07 |
| cc_INC | Testing can be done in Virtual Box or on actual hardware? | 17:07 |
| cc_INC | Especially the zsync crash course was interesting by the way. Much thanks for explaining! | 17:07 |
| Os_Maleus | yes, still here, but can't log in there. ... searching for my pass-word. :-D | 17:08 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Both will do. | 17:08 |
| cc_INC | Great | 17:08 |
| cc_INC | I think I have some old boxes lying around I can use as test subjects :) | 17:08 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Ok. Well, you can always ask when you have logged in. Most of the people on the channel know this stuff. | 17:08 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yep, I do that as well. | 17:08 |
| cc_INC | Okay can I quickly do a recap just to see if I fully understand? | 17:09 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Of course. | 17:09 |
| cc_INC | 1- Go to http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ to get the latest daily build with zsync. 2-Go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short to follow the steps | 17:10 |
| cc_INC | 3- Report the results....ehmm....where again? :( | 17:10 |
| hobgoblin | don't think we'd got there yet cc_INC | 17:11 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Ok, once you've downloaded the image, and done the test, you can return to the testcases page. | 17:11 |
| cc_INC | Sorry hobgoblin | 17:11 |
| astraljava | There underneath the download information, and the links to the testcase, you see the 'Add a result' section. | 17:12 |
| cc_INC | Will have a look straght away... | 17:12 |
| astraljava | The only thing that's mandatory is the result. Did everything work as expected, and this means while you were going through the testcase. | 17:12 |
| cc_INC | Ooooh I see now!!! Wicked!! | 17:13 |
| Os_Maleus | seems like I would be too stupid even to create a new profile there. ... can't log in. | 17:13 |
| cc_INC | Awesome, I get it now. Thanks for your patience! | 17:13 |
| astraljava | If anything failed, you mark the image as failed. If you didn't stumble upon anything unexpected, you'll mark it as Passed. | 17:13 |
| pleia2 | Os_Maleus: not at all :) there should be a password reset thing for ubuntu single sign on | 17:13 |
| cc_INC | Boy, this is exciting :) | 17:14 |
| hobgoblin | can I just add something - if you do find a bug and report it - only put the number of the bug - not the whole URL in the list | 17:14 |
| astraljava | You can also mark it 'In progress', though I must admit I haven't personally done that before. I guess this is more meant for use when time is short, and you need to have results in, and only a handful of people are doing the tests, so you divide the responsibilities. | 17:14 |
| hobgoblin | I wasted ages on that | 17:14 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: Yep, good addition. | 17:15 |
| hobgoblin | thanks :) | 17:15 |
| cc_INC | o/ Sorry, again a small question....oh gee, sorry for being a pain in the beezwax guys...but is testing a informal, whenever I have time for it I will get to it kinda thing. Or is it formal as in you need to do it otherwise you're off the testing team kinda thing? | 17:16 |
| astraljava | It does nowadays say 'Comma separated list of bugs preventing you from passing the testcase', so the 'list of bugs' means a list of bug NUMBERS. | 17:16 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: For the dailies, it's very informal. But for the milestone releases, we need to cover enough of them so that the image will be released. | 17:17 |
| GridCube | cc_INC, we are all contributors with our free time | 17:17 |
| hobgoblin | +1 to that | 17:17 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: No one will be kicked out of the community for not participating, though. | 17:17 |
| astraljava | :) | 17:17 |
| astraljava | Not even frowned upon. :) | 17:18 |
| hobgoblin | I do have a question here related to bugs in general when there's time for it | 17:18 |
| cc_INC | Okay I understand. I will do my best to help where I can guys. I really want to help. Happy to hear that I can manage my own time by myself being a family man and all :) | 17:18 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: I will do my best in answering it, but I'm not really a bug expert when it comes to ubuntu guidelines. But shoot. | 17:18 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yep, do what you can, when you can, but only if you WANT to. :) | 17:19 |
| hobgoblin | ok - so I tested the daily the other day - one of the tests is plug in a usb - if it mounts cool - it actually failed - the question is | 17:19 |
| hobgoblin | how do you work out WHAT to fille something against? | 17:19 |
| hobgoblin | what would I have filed a failure to mount a usb against? | 17:20 |
| cc_INC | astraljava I really WANT to :) | 17:20 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: You can ask on the channels (Xubuntu-specific or #ubuntu-bugs, for instance), check the LP bug lists for certain terms, use google for it (although we never tell anyone to "Go google it!"), whatever you can. | 17:21 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: ...or, just file the bug, and let the bug triagers point it to the right package. | 17:21 |
| hobgoblin | lol | 17:21 |
| hobgoblin | I try not to do that unless I have to :) | 17:21 |
| hobgoblin | I try not to search launchpad either - therein lies pain | 17:22 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: We try not to be too limiting, cause we need to know about the problems. Making sure it's filed on the correct package from the first second on, isn't that important. | 17:22 |
| hobgoblin | ok :) | 17:22 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Good to hear. :) | 17:22 |
| pleia2 | hobgoblin: I ask here for pretty much every bug I report ;) | 17:23 |
| hobgoblin | pleia2: k | 17:23 |
| hobgoblin | wb cc_INC | 17:23 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: Basically it boils down to how computer and ubuntu-savvy you are. If you know about what deals with which functions, you can ease the work of the triagers by doing a bit of research on your own. But it isn't absolutely necessary. | 17:23 |
| cc_INC | Sorry guys I got dropped out...:( | 17:23 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: No worries. Welcome back. | 17:23 |
| astraljava | But yeah, back to the filing results. | 17:24 |
| astraljava | So if everything went as expected, just mark it as Passed, and you're done! YAY! :) | 17:24 |
| cc_INC | Sounds great!! | 17:25 |
| astraljava | But if you had problems, mark it as Failed, and depending on your mood, spare time, and tiredness, you can file and list the bugs that you stumbled upon, or if you found that LP already knows about some of them, just pick the existing bug numbers, and list them in appropriate text fields. | 17:25 |
| astraljava | Critical bugs box (love the sound of that) is, as it says, bugs that prevent you from passing the testcase. | 17:26 |
| astraljava | Now you might notice that the Bugs box (aaww...) can be used EVEN if you marked the result as Passed. | 17:27 |
| astraljava | While everything listed in the testcase description works, you might still stumble upon some other bugs. This is your chance to make them noted. | 17:27 |
| astraljava | So, to recap, the first box (Critical bugs) is used if you CANNOT pass the testcase. The next one for some bugs that you found, but could still complete the tests mentioned in the testcase description. | 17:28 |
| astraljava | Everything clear so far? | 17:28 |
| pleia2 | I think we skipped what you actually test | 17:30 |
| pleia2 | there is the link to the testcase, but where do /Short /Long come in? | 17:30 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Yeah, but cc_INC asked. :) | 17:30 |
| astraljava | So I covered that now. | 17:30 |
| pleia2 | ok | 17:30 |
| astraljava | Ok, the rest of the text boxes are all just FYI only. If you want, feel free to add information there. It's cool to see what hardware people tested on, but it isn't in anyway necessary. | 17:31 |
| astraljava | If you have anything to add to the tests, or anything at all related to QA, you can type in the Comments box. | 17:32 |
| astraljava | Alright, should we go through the /Short testcase now? | 17:32 |
| cc_INC | Yup.. | 17:32 |
| astraljava | I'd like to suggest a short break. Take 5, everyone? :D | 17:32 |
| cc_INC | astraljava you're explanation is crystal clear!! Thanks, doing a great job here.. | 17:33 |
| hobgoblin | yep | 17:33 |
| pleia2 | I created a couple wiki pages for my hardware profiles that I test with: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz/LenovoG575 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz/vbox15G | 17:33 |
| astraljava | We've already chatted 1.5 hours by now. Wow.. | 17:33 |
| hobgoblin | time flies astraljava :) | 17:33 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Cool! If you want, use those as examples, and create your own, and then link to them. | 17:33 |
| * astraljava makes a mental note to wrap up in 1h 15min, the soccer games await... ;) | 17:34 | |
| hobgoblin | lol | 17:34 |
| Os_Maleus | okay, astraljava, it took me some time to recognize that my brower war blocking me. I am in there now. | 17:34 |
| cc_INC | Yeah I also have some diner that's about to get ready anytime soon :) | 17:34 |
| pleia2 | Os_Maleus: yay! | 17:35 |
| * hobgoblin desperately wanst whatever happens in footie to result in portugal going home | 17:35 | |
| cc_INC | PORTUGAL?!?! Going home?!? WHY?!?! :) | 17:35 |
| pleia2 | haha | 17:35 |
| hobgoblin | cos I'm English | 17:35 |
| hobgoblin | :) | 17:35 |
| cc_INC | I think our guys are going home! | 17:36 |
| cc_INC | Ooops....going way way off-topic here. Sorry guys :) | 17:36 |
| hobgoblin | we're having a 5 min break cc_INC :) | 17:36 |
| cc_INC | Haha, in that case... | 17:37 |
| cc_INC | I live in The Netherlands...I think our guys are gonna bite the dust. | 17:37 |
| pleia2 | astraljava: I do have a couple of action item type things I'd like to quickly discuss, but we can do that in 10 minutes or so toward the end of the meeting :) | 17:37 |
| cc_INC | My money is either on Spain or Italy on winning the thing. | 17:38 |
| hobgoblin | cc_INC: +1 to both of those | 17:38 |
| cc_INC | Although UK has been a pleasant surprise too man..geez. | 17:38 |
| hobgoblin | :) | 17:39 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Shoot. | 17:39 |
| * astraljava finished hanging the laundry to dry, and grabbed a cider. | 17:40 | |
| astraljava | pleia2 can silence me if I start talking funny | 17:40 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 17:40 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Cool! | 17:41 |
| pleia2 | so the first is that we used to have a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers and we still link it on the website and say "Xubuntu Testers team at Launchpad, which you should join after adding your information on the wik" | 17:41 |
| pleia2 | on the web side I think I just need to remove this wiki link and adjust the text for the launchpad team to tell people they can just join | 17:41 |
| hobgoblin | I followed a bunch of those dead links | 17:42 |
| pleia2 | (unless there is a defined new process that I missed) | 17:42 |
| pleia2 | hobgoblin: were there others? | 17:42 |
| hobgoblin | yea - pretty sure - 2 secs | 17:43 |
| pleia2 | ah, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo is gone too | 17:43 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Yeah, it's set as an open team now. No listing of testers is there anymore. | 17:43 |
| pleia2 | ok, essentially we need to fix http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/#testing ASAP because there are broken links :) | 17:43 |
| pleia2 | I think I'll just delete "The Xubuntu Testing Info page, which explains the testing process, including describing the tests you should conduct" too | 17:43 |
| astraljava | pleia2: Alright. Hit me when you wanna go over it. | 17:43 |
| pleia2 | I think that pretty much covers it actually | 17:43 |
| astraljava | Or... that works as well. :) | 17:44 |
| pleia2 | the other thing I have is action plan for 1) final review of /Short 2) basic review and then final review of /Long 3) move these to QA wiki | 17:44 |
| pleia2 | it would be nice to #action these now | 17:44 |
| astraljava | It would, but sorry. :D | 17:45 |
| pleia2 | I can help review /Long | 17:45 |
| pleia2 | I suspect some things will change with Xfce 4.10, and even last cycle I think /Long had some errors | 17:45 |
| astraljava | We already went through most of it with gnome, but it isn't published yet. I hope he has the changed document somewhere. | 17:45 |
| pleia2 | oh ok | 17:45 |
| astraljava | But it'd be great if you would go through it. | 17:46 |
| pleia2 | I'll catch up with knome to make sure I'm reviewing the most current doc :) | 17:46 |
| astraljava | Can you ping him about it? Or me, or I will, or whatever. :) | 17:46 |
| astraljava | But let's try to do it ASAP. | 17:46 |
| * pleia2 nods | 17:46 | |
| astraljava | Okay, we've had 10 now. | 17:46 |
| pleia2 | want me to update the website now? or do you have access? | 17:47 |
| astraljava | Is everyone ready tO ROCK?! | 17:47 |
| cc_INC | YEAH!!! | 17:47 |
| astraljava | pleia2: I think I do, but I haven't used it ever. | 17:47 |
| * hobgoblin is | 17:47 | |
| pleia2 | ok, I'll take care of it now | 17:47 |
| astraljava | Thanks. | 17:47 |
| cc_INC | ......Food is here... | 17:47 |
| astraljava | *psst* guys... she's too sweet, please be nice to her, she's a rockstar really... | 17:47 |
| astraljava | Okay, where were we? | 17:48 |
| hobgoblin | astraljava pleia2 if anyone wants a 'just a user' to check these short/long pages I'm happy to do it | 17:48 |
| astraljava | right, the /Short testcase. | 17:48 |
| astraljava | hobgoblin: Thanks, and really to everyone, you can always chat about the pages. | 17:48 |
| astraljava | Or the procedures overall. | 17:48 |
| astraljava | They're not set in stone. | 17:48 |
| astraljava | People may notice things that could use enhancement. | 17:49 |
| hobgoblin | k - thanks, I'll stop interrupting so you can get on :) | 17:49 |
| astraljava | Don't be afraid to voice these points, there could very well be things we're overlooking. | 17:49 |
| cc_INC | I still have this window open, but I'm gonna get some chow now...but will be back after.. | 17:50 |
| astraljava | Sure. | 17:50 |
| astraljava | Will you guys open the /Short testcase page now? | 17:51 |
| astraljava | Ok, I assume you have it there, now. | 17:52 |
| hobgoblin | yep | 17:53 |
| astraljava | Wanna read it through first, before we delve deeper? | 17:53 |
| hobgoblin | I have :) | 17:54 |
| astraljava | Others? FiltroMan, Os_Maleus? | 17:54 |
| Os_Maleus | I am still here. | 17:55 |
| pleia2 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short is the full link if you missed it | 17:55 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Did you find the testcase page? | 17:55 |
| Os_Maleus | I see, I have basically to start this "ubuntu-bug ubiquity" and then everything should run automatically. isn't it? | 17:56 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Not really, that's how you FILE a bug. | 17:56 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Or where were you going when you thought of that? | 17:57 |
| Os_Maleus | ... as far as Internet is available. | 17:57 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Yes, it depends on internet being available. | 17:57 |
| Os_Maleus | well this test page is describing how to test everything properly. isn't it? | 17:57 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Yep, but it sort of expects you to have booted the image at that point. | 17:58 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: You don't have to type anything in terminal to get there. | 17:58 |
| Os_Maleus | I mean, whether all components are working like they should. | 17:58 |
| Os_Maleus | yes. | 17:58 |
| astraljava | That is true. | 17:58 |
| astraljava | Okay, maybe I should start from the beginning. | 17:58 |
| astraljava | Once you have downloaded the image, do you all know what to do next? | 17:59 |
| astraljava | Or let me put it this way; you have two choices. | 17:59 |
| Os_Maleus | then running this update of the immage with zsync. | 17:59 |
| astraljava | You can burn an image onto a blank CD/DVD, or make a USB stick that you can boot with. | 17:59 |
| astraljava | Should we go over the ways of preparing these? | 18:02 |
| astraljava | Or are you all familiar with how to do this? | 18:02 |
| cc_INC | Just like a regular .iso right? | 18:02 |
| cc_INC | xfce burn to burn the image or unetbootin to burn the usb?!? | 18:02 |
| Os_Maleus | done it before. know how to prepare a bootable USB-stick with an iso-file. | 18:03 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yes, those work. If you chose the desktop image, then you can also use the Startup Disk Creator tool. | 18:03 |
| cc_INC | Those are for the Alternate images?!? | 18:05 |
| astraljava | Ok, so basically when you have booted that image, and if you're looking at the Live Session testcase that I was pointing to... | 18:05 |
| cc_INC | mini.iso? | 18:05 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: mini.iso is different. | 18:05 |
| astraljava | It doesn't have a Desktop Environment at all. | 18:05 |
| Os_Maleus | yes, it has basically the option to install or to try or something more. :-) | 18:06 |
| astraljava | But yeah, I'm describing the work flow of the Live Session first. | 18:07 |
| astraljava | We can go through the others later. | 18:07 |
| astraljava | What you do is choose the 'Try Xubuntu without making changes to your system' or something like that. | 18:08 |
| astraljava | You'll be taken to the desktop session at this point. | 18:09 |
| astraljava | And at that point, you're already capable of starting to go through the testcase. | 18:09 |
| astraljava | I kinda feel that the description is very self-explanatory. | 18:10 |
| astraljava | Is there a real need to go through it point-by-point? | 18:10 |
| astraljava | What if you ask if you're confused about anything on it? | 18:10 |
| hobgoblin | astraljava: you talking of the wiki page now? | 18:11 |
| astraljava | Yes, now you have logged in to the Xubuntu session, and you're seeing the desktop ready. | 18:11 |
| hobgoblin | k - I'm good with that - not sure of the others | 18:11 |
| astraljava | By logged in I mean you're in the live session, no real need for logging in, but it seems as if you have. | 18:12 |
| astraljava | You can at this point use all applications and services as if you had installed the system already. | 18:13 |
| astraljava | Everything is in memory, though, and no changes to your existing system has been made, yet. | 18:13 |
| Os_Maleus | no, there is no need from my side for going through that right now. | 18:14 |
| astraljava | But at this point you can take the steps mentioned in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short testcase description. | 18:14 |
| Os_Maleus | okay. | 18:15 |
| Os_Maleus | But I hope You not to expect that from me to perform it immediately. ... As soon as I will have some free time, I will perform it. | 18:16 |
| astraljava | Right, so the first part of that is for the live session. But then you see the 'Post-install testing'. | 18:16 |
| astraljava | This you need to do _if_ you decide to use the link on your desktop for installing the system. | 18:17 |
| astraljava | Or let's not use 'need', but you are free to do, if... | 18:17 |
| astraljava | Right. Anything to ask at this point? | 18:19 |
| astraljava | I'd like to recap what we've gone through up until now. | 18:19 |
| Os_Maleus | well, I have a question for that case, if I have installed already. ... the wifi doesn't work on one of my machines. ... what can I do? | 18:19 |
| Os_Maleus | until now, it seems to me, there would be no support for the adapter by the drivers. and this on several Xubuntu-versions. | 18:20 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: You can look for existing bugs on LP, you can ask on this channel or #ubuntu+1, you can write to the mailing list(s) asking for help in debugging, or you can file a bug about it. | 18:21 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Right, if you have a very exotic network adapter, then there's not much we can do to help. | 18:21 |
| cc_INC | okay I'm back.. | 18:21 |
| cc_INC | Dinner is digesing :) | 18:22 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: Then it's just a matter of filing a bug against linux (the kernel), and asking for implementation of the drivers for that adapter. | 18:22 |
| Os_Maleus | well, it is a DELL machine. so, actually, it should be not that exotic. | 18:22 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: But you have to understand that that is a new feature, and kernel developers require help from the would-be users in order to develop those drivers. | 18:22 |
| Os_Maleus | okay. | 18:23 |
| Os_Maleus | I see. | 18:23 |
| astraljava | Dell is a manufacturer of laptops and desktops, they don't produce all the necessary parts for those themselves. | 18:23 |
| Os_Maleus | other working-station. :-) | 18:23 |
| Os_Maleus | okay. | 18:23 |
| astraljava | Right, so if there are no other questions, let's go through what he have touched so far. | 18:23 |
| astraljava | We've talked about where to find the images. We linked to the pages where to file the results, and how to file the results. | 18:24 |
| astraljava | ...and how to get the results. :) | 18:24 |
| astraljava | Anything to add to that? | 18:25 |
| Os_Maleus | okay. all clear from my side, now. | 18:25 |
| Os_Maleus | thanks for taking Your time to explain everything with patience again! | 18:25 |
| cc_INC | Just browsed through what was said it's clear to me.. | 18:25 |
| cc_INC | If I get lost I can always ask on this channel? | 18:26 |
| hobgoblin | yep | 18:26 |
| Os_Maleus | I wish You all a calm day! | 18:26 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: My pleasure. :) | 18:26 |
| Os_Maleus | good to know. | 18:26 |
| Os_Maleus | ;-) | 18:26 |
| Os_Maleus | bye! | 18:26 |
| hobgoblin | cya Os_Maleus | 18:26 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Yes, everytime, you can ask. Just bear in mind that many of us will be on the channel, but not physically AT the keyboard. :) | 18:27 |
| astraljava | Os_Maleus: See you around! | 18:27 |
| cc_INC | I understand | 18:27 |
| pleia2 | you can also use the mailing list if no one is around | 18:27 |
| hobgoblin | cc_INC: I'm often about and have done this before - just never in a structured manner - so I'm new to a testing team | 18:27 |
| pleia2 | it's also good for "I don't know if this is a bug, but.." questions | 18:27 |
| cc_INC | I have never ever used a mailing list before...but might look into it too. | 18:28 |
| cc_INC | hobgoblin thanks buddy. | 18:28 |
| astraljava | Ok, so if there are no other questions, let's go through a few other items. | 18:29 |
| astraljava | That is, if you have any energy left, still. | 18:29 |
| astraljava | Or should we book another meeting already for those? :) | 18:29 |
| pleia2 | I think we should plan another meeting | 18:30 |
| astraljava | I admit that 1.5 hours is quite sufficient for one meeting already. | 18:30 |
| * pleia2 peers at the clock | 18:30 | |
| pleia2 | 2.5 | 18:30 |
| astraljava | Oh, oops. | 18:30 |
| astraljava | ;) | 18:30 |
| astraljava | Right. pleia2, wasn't it 3 weeks apart that we wanted to see these meetings happen? | 18:31 |
| pleia2 | yeah, but since we're still covering fundamental stuff we may want another one sooner | 18:31 |
| astraljava | Good point. Already in one week from now? | 18:31 |
| hobgoblin | I'd agree with that | 18:31 |
| pleia2 | sounds good | 18:31 |
| pleia2 | same bat time? | 18:31 |
| astraljava | WorksForMe™ | 18:32 |
| pleia2 | k, I'll add it to the calendar | 18:32 |
| astraljava | Excellent, and I'll write a loose 'minutes' to the lists. | 18:32 |
| astraljava | ...and mention it there. | 18:32 |
| pleia2 | great | 18:32 |
| cc_INC | Next week Sunday?! I don't think I can attend then :( | 18:32 |
| hobgoblin | thanks astraljava | 18:32 |
| hobgoblin | cc_INC: the channel is logged | 18:32 |
| astraljava | cc_INC: Don't worry, you can check the logs, and ask questions anytime. | 18:33 |
| cc_INC | GREAT!!!! Thanks! That way I don't have to miss a thing. Thanks guys (Y) | 18:33 |
| astraljava | Thanks for participating, and making Xubuntu better! :) | 18:33 |
| * astraljava calls the meeting sort of ended, though it never really was started. :) | 18:34 | |
| cc_INC | It's a pleasure! I really want to help make Xubuntu a better distro and getting there one soul at a time :) | 18:34 |
| hobgoblin | cya all soon - I'm off to relax for 10 before the footie | 18:34 |
| pleia2 | thanks everyone :) | 18:34 |
| cc_INC | hobgoblin enjoy the game mate | 18:35 |
| cc_INC | :) | 18:35 |
| hobgoblin | :) | 18:35 |
| micahg | pleia2: that project that knome linked to is the upstream project, the packageset is based on the seed which produces the xubuntu-desktop package in the archive | 20:11 |
| pleia2 | micahg: ah, gotcha | 20:12 |
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