[04:38] morning - if anyone's awake - what should I file a usb not opening thunar against ? [04:40] nvm - google fu was weak in this one today :p [05:17] while I think about it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/ has got grandr on the list - shouldn't be there as it's not in the repos now [05:42] hobgoblin: You could ping GridCube about it when he's present. [05:42] okey doke [05:53] I'm pretty sure he's aware. [05:54] that's alright then - just seems a bit daft to have it on there :) [05:54] Aye, it's not an option really. [06:44] hobgoblin: yeah, i think it was discussed previously, removed it from the list now [06:54] madnick: ping [07:04] ochosi: pong [07:04] as for what you said yesterday [07:04] I've been reviewing the code [07:05] I've just not implemented anything or uploaded a branch [07:06] ochosi: thanks :) [07:07] madnick: ok, just wanted to get back to you on that [07:08] ochosi: if i wanted to use bazar on this, could i? [07:08] Do I have any rights [07:08] i haven't created a team or anything yet, but we can quickly look into that now if you have time [07:09] okay awesome [07:09] Maybe we could just assign it to Xubuntu artwork? [07:10] are you in that team? [07:10] i think so [07:10] 1 sec [07:10] Hm I seem to have been kicked off that team [07:11] that must've been knome_'s spring cleaning [07:11] how about xubuntu team? [07:11] too many people in there [07:11] i see [07:11] but actually i'm wondering whether i messed up something, because the /code page says that we host our code @ unity-greeter .) [07:12] https://code.launchpad.net/~dr.madnick should show all places you can upload. [07:12] guess i should've pulled their code and then pushed it to our repo, will quickly inquire in #launchpad [07:12] i see [07:14] Im not sure where this belongs, seeing as plymouth stuff was decided to be "artwork", i think this should be aswell, the problem with seperating people who "do artwork" and others, is this hehe [07:14] yeah, i agree [07:14] are there any plans/blueprints for plymouth yet? [07:14] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-new-plymouth [07:15] "Prepare refreshed drafts for the theme" > can they be found anywhere? [07:15] But I have not been hearing anything specific this cycle, about the things that should be implemented [07:15] ok [07:15] i see [07:15] ochosi: I'd say its the old one [07:16] Refreshing has not been done [07:16] well personally i think the circular progress-indicator would be nice [07:16] Yeah [07:16] just any kind of spinner [07:17] I think a general review of the code used for feedback should be done [07:17] Currently we have a lot of "last minute" code [07:17] you mean feedback like "running fsck"? [07:17] yeah [07:18] how many of those feedback scenarios are there? [07:18] And the most annoying aspect is the fact that testing plymouth stuff in a VM is almost impossible [07:18] mhm [07:18] ochosi: there is fsck, cryptsetup, indicator, press X key [07:18] etc === knome_ is now known as knome [07:18] could you make a (complete) list? [07:19] then we could discuss each one of them [07:19] ideally create a spec in the wiki and link it to the roadmap [07:19] That would not be useful, seeing as we do not implement all of them, we should instead review the possibilities [07:19] hmm, i can't remember droppint madnick off the art team [07:19] *dropping [07:19] I don't remember being dropped either [07:19] knome: tbh i think xubuntu-dev would be more appropriate for the lightdm engine/theme [07:20] No mail [07:20] ochosi, yeah, but that's problematic [07:20] knome: i can also create a separate lp-team [07:21] hmh, art is fine for that [07:21] ochosi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1046805/ [07:22] these are the possibilties [07:22] ochosi, if you want to propose a new xubuntu LP team, add that to the meeting agenda [07:22] ochosi: but those are just callbacks, the "messages" is what decides actions [07:22] ochosi, i'm not sure if we need any new, rather drop the old ;) [07:23] ochosi, we were thinking with pleia2 that maybe -marketing would work well, and we could drop -website then [07:26] madnick: actually there is another greeter we could use/fork [07:26] madnick: that one doesn't even use gnome-settings-daemon [07:26] okay? [07:26] it's pantheon-greeter from the elementary project [07:27] don't confuse him (us) [07:27] ? [07:27] ;) [07:27] "there's yet another..." [07:27] The thing that is quite awesome with the unity-greeter is it comes complete with code for screenreader and virtual keyboard, aswell as other neat stuff [07:28] ^ that [07:28] 's ++ [07:28] madnick: yeah, not sure pantheon-greeter has that [07:29] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~elementary-pantheon/pantheon-greeter/1.x/view/head:/src/indicators.vala [07:29] would seem it likes gnome-settings-daemon [07:30] yeah, weird. then maybe it's just bad packaging [07:30] http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06182012-093032am.php [07:30] knome: i think i'm more or less done with the greybird-revamp [07:31] :) [07:31] i even created a pixmap panel-background for the launcher-panel in case we won't use the compositor [07:31] not sure you'll like it though :p [07:32] heh [07:32] here it is: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06182012-093211am.php [07:32] i got to test that sometime [07:32] haven't pushed the vast changes i did yesterday yet [07:32] hmmh. [07:32] wondering whether i can retrospectively split them up in smaller commits [07:33] not really sure about that [07:33] that's not completely bad :) [07:33] :) [07:33] if the panel is on autohide, it looks a bit as if it would slide in underneath the wallpaper [07:33] because of the drop-shadow [07:34] pixmaps have the disadvantage that people have to change/modify them if they make the panel higher than the height of the pixmap (bg-repeat), but it's easy enough to change now in the panel-properties [07:34] madnick: we could also try to convince robert_ancell to drop gnome-settings-daemon [07:41] madnick: hehe, just realized i already tried that before [07:41] eh [07:41] > Were not going to modify Unity greeter to support different use cases, [07:41] > as we want to be able to quickly adapt it in it's current form. A [07:41] > forked version however shouldn't be too hard to keep in sync if you were [07:41] > willing to maintain it. [07:44] hehe [07:44] Well, lets just fork it [07:45] yup [07:48] madnick: if you apply to xubuntu-artwork lp-group i can approve you and then you can push to bzr [07:49] (just changed the maintainer of xubuntu-greeter to xubuntu-artwork) [07:51] ochosi, note that you an add people directly too [07:52] true [07:53] madnick: you've been added [07:53] Technically I think I could add myself aswell :P I just need to get some login stuff [07:53] ah thanks :) [07:53] np [07:55] madnick: if you could do an initial push now so that we have just the fork there, that'd be great. i just wanna make sure everything works [07:56] ochosi: I do not have a suitable dev environment for that, I will need to setup a VM with the new images and get the tools, I will download the required things today [07:56] ah ok, in that case please ping me as soon as you've done that [07:57] will do :) [07:57] k, thanks [07:57] :) [10:11] astraljava, how was the QA meeting? [10:11] astraljava, i forgot that completely, but turned out i couldn't have made it anyway :) [10:12] astraljava, i quickly looked at backlog, was there something you needed to check from me? [10:15] * knome reads the chanlogs [10:15] I thought it went well [10:15] knome: there are meetings @ml [10:16] ochosi, ? [10:16] ochosi, "minutes" ? [10:16] meeting minutes? [10:17] you said "meetings" :D [10:17] i'm lost. [10:17] what meetings are on the ml? [10:17] yeah, sry, i meant meeting minutes :) [10:17] hmm. [10:18] (i'm kinda focussing on something else right now) [10:18] why did i miss that mail? BLAH [10:18] wait... [10:18] i haven't received it? [10:19] oh, hmm [10:19] weird [10:19] that's at my inbox [10:20] ok, fixed [10:25] heh, "fix committed" on the bug GridCube pasted :) [10:26] i suppose the buttons are coming this cycle, at least based on the discussions with stgraber :) [10:26] knome: It's the world's slowest meeting. Takes only a few years to complete. [10:26] yeah, i notice. :) [10:26] maybe using meetingology in a more relaxed way is not too bad [10:27] i mean, just use #startmeeting, #topic and #info, and gathering the meeting minutes is a breeze [10:28] Well, I found I could not create strict topics, nor give out any precise info lines either, so didn't see a real reason for starting it properly either. [10:28] It was more of a conversational meeting. [10:30] hmm. [10:30] imo "failed" should be filed only if you weren't able to *finish* the test [10:31] Yes. Why? [10:31] even if something failed, just link the bugs, then mark as passed [10:31] Hmm... [10:31] because: [10:31] if you mark it as "failed", it looks like the xubuntu iso's are not ready for release [10:31] because that's the stats people are looking at [10:31] Is there a case you're referring to? [10:32] astraljava, If anything failed, you mark the image as failed. If you didn't stumble upon anything unexpected, you'll mark it as Passed. [10:32] ^ from the meeting log [10:32] I think we might have a mixed understanding of 'releasable'. [10:33] Are you referring to "installation failed"? [10:33] Releasable to me covers a bit more than just "being able to install". [10:39] astraljava, only critical bugs should fail the image [10:40] astraljava, there will be bugs on releases anyway, those shouldn't stop us from releasing non-final milestones [10:40] astraljava, especially not alphas [10:40] Yeah ok, maybe that needs a little bit refining. I'll remember that for the next meeting, and post corrections. Thanks! [10:40] astraljava, that's why there are the "bugs" and "critical bugs" sections in the QA tracker [10:41] astraljava, i've seen some tests with some really minor bugs marked as "failed" [10:41] astraljava: so mine should be a pass with a bug - is that right? [10:41] if those turn up, and the test pass rate is, say 50%, that isn't completely accurate [10:41] hobgoblin: From the recent discussion, yeah I think that's how it is. [10:41] k - cool - so long as I know [10:42] hobgoblin, depends on the bug; if it's something that is seriously interfering from installing, it should be "bug", not "critical", and thus the test should not fail [10:42] astraljava, example; the terminal help doesn't open; should that be a "fail", just because there is that bug? :) [10:42] knome: it was nothing like that [10:42] knome: But we shouldn't be talking about "interfering from installing". That's different from being releasable. [10:43] astraljava, i think it would be meaningful to ask the QA team too what they think of this [10:43] astraljava, and what is generally the difference between a bug and a critical bug [10:43] yeah I agree. This is a little too vague now. [10:43] yup. great :) [10:43] i'll continue with the log [10:44] knome: so if "hobgoblin, ..... it should be "bug", not "critical", and thus the test should not fail" what would be critical? [10:45] cos I would expect something that stops you installing to be critical - logically speaking [10:45] hobgoblin: That's what we have to specify. [10:45] ok :) [10:45] hobgoblin: Depends. [10:45] If we're talking about "being releasable", you wouldn't ship a product that's installable, but not usable, right? [10:45] hobgoblin, well at least something that stops you from following the testcase; eg. if you are testing the "encrypted home", but can't encrypt home, the bug that prevents you to encrypt should be critical + fail the image [10:46] yes, "pass" should mean "the image is installable and usable" [10:46] but that doesn't mean the image can't have any bugs [10:46] "fail" should be "the image is either not installable or not usable" [10:46] ok - I understand that [10:47] True. If we're thinking about hobgoblin's case, then I don't know if I'd again switch sides. We need to clarify which steps are required to work, and which are just bonus. [10:47] astraljava, usb doesn't mount autmatically? [10:47] astraljava, if you can mount manually, it's a pass. if not, it's a fail. [10:47] If the case says to try USB sticks, and you can't browse them, then is it a fail or pass? [10:48] see prev comment ^ [10:48] or was it about mounting by default [10:48] or not being able to access at all generally [10:48] Well what fun is it being able to mount, if you can't browse? [10:49] knome: it was in dmesg - not in thunar - in fact none of the other partitions that I would see in thnar normally are there - didn't bother trying to manually mount it [10:49] i suppose it boils down to "is the stick browseable on other systems" and "what's the filesystem" [10:49] if it is browseable, and the fs is FAT, i'd say it might be a fail [10:49] knome: Have fun trying to open that up in the testcase. :D [10:49] if it's not browseable, or the filesystem is NTFS, i'd say that's a pass [10:49] just use common sense. [10:50] You're talking about plain users here. *smirk* [10:50] i think there should be a way to mark "failed" tests "passed" by some "product admins" at a later stage [10:50] and the other way too [10:50] well that ^ [10:50] knome: No, we don't need that. The results don't have to be used by cold numbers. [10:50] i understood there's going to be some "product admins" anyway [10:51] or sth, ask stgraber :) [10:51] I've got common sense - a usb that was used to install from should be bwoseable when you reboot after install in my opinion :) [10:51] Okay, well, I wouldn't mind, but it's not a pre-requisite IMHO. [10:51] the point was that there's going to be more granularity in the permissions [10:51] as a plain user :) [10:51] hobgoblin: I wasn't comparing you to a plain user. Sorry if that was confusing. :D [10:51] astraljava, yes, agreed in "cold numbers" [10:51] lol [10:52] astraljava, but the -release list is getting those pass/fail percentages, so i'd rather get them right [10:52] knome: I'd like that very much. (re: granularity) [10:52] knome: Yeah ok, then it makes sense. [10:52] astraljava, so to say, those are not just for us [10:53] I have been a little out from the -release for this cycle. I'll try to do better. [10:53] np :) [10:53] i've been out too, and while i've been in, there hasn't been anything [10:54] the things i refer to regarding QA tracker was discussed mostly last cycle with stgraber personally [10:54] knome, pleia2: could one (or both) of you please proof-read my article on x.org? [10:54] i can do later today [10:55] * astraljava was scolded for missing the deadlines for the emails, too [10:55] astraljava, oh, oops. no, i didn't make changes to the Long document [10:56] astraljava, but i remember most of it anyway [10:56] astraljava, what should be left is not the big thing, the big thing is making it readable in addition [10:56] Okay, maybe I recall that incorrectly anyway. But I thought we started going through that, did we not? [10:56] yeah, we quickly did, but i didn't make any specific notes (except mental) [10:57] I just remember saying I was too tired at one point, and that we ought to switch to NHL '11 at that point. :D [10:57] yup! [10:57] Right, so if you remember anything at all, could you throw a draft somewhere, and we could go through it with the princess as well? [10:57] knome, pleia2: btw, i consciously decided against including something like a "changelog", i think pictures speak louder than words anyway [10:58] i can do that later too :) [10:58] Sweet! Thanks. :) [11:18] ochosi, looks fine, though i'd probably change the last

to either remove the "(if you know how)" or quickly paste the command [11:18] ochosi, also, it's lacking your "the writer is"... [11:19] oh true, i forgot that we still add that manually [11:19] yup :P [11:21] i was also wondering whether i should try to structure the text more by formatting it [11:21] i mean adding etc [11:22] if you want to emphasize some thing specifically, then maybe [11:22] or i could add headers [11:22] that works too [11:25] knome: ok, updated [11:32] astraljava, sent my notes about the long test to you and pleia2 [11:33] ochosi, make the "feedback" a separate

and it [11:35] * astraljava kisses knome on the mouth [11:36] umm, eww [11:36] :D [11:38] knome: ok done. if you approve it, please press publish [11:38] astraljava knome - if either of you are here = so is grub install failed - this is a fatal error - critical - not critical - and a fail regardless ? [11:38] bbl [11:39] hobgoblin: That's a sure-fire fail, and very critical indeed. [11:40] ok - 'but' I did 'fiddle' with the install - did a entire disc install - but went to the partitioner and changed grub from sda to sdc - would that change your thinking? [11:41] in my mind it's a fail still [11:43] Hmm... well if you're sure the system _should_ be able to boot from that, then yes. Have you checked the BIOS boot section? [11:43] ochosi, btw, it's *Quantal* [11:44] ochosi, fixed that though. [11:44] ochosi, and publsihed [11:44] -typo [11:44] oh I know that it would normally be ok astraljava [11:45] Ok, yeah. You should mark the test as failed, and provide the bug report with grub messages attached (on the bug, not on the tracker). [11:45] k [11:46] where do you get grub messages from - never had an install fail on me before lol [11:48] hobgoblin: So how exactly does it fail, then? I'm sorry, I assumed that it fails to boot after grub was installed on another partition/drive. [11:48] hang on - just found the next bit lol [11:49] Ugh... going through an image _bit by bit_ is much more hardcore I could ever imagine myself doing testing. *smirk* [11:49] finished without installing grub - apport started mpw [11:51] bah - it was my fail [11:51] but at least I've seen an install fail now :) [11:52] http://astraljava.kapsi.fi/fail-set-sail-for-fail1.jpg [11:53] yep that works for me too :)( [11:53] Love that pic. [11:54] so in future - don't tell the installer to install grub to somewhere it is set to do something to - extreme confusion ensues :) [11:54] Yep, even that description confuses the konfutse out of me. [11:54] :) [11:54] confused me - and I did it ... [12:50] so if you've done a bunch of tests - and you have the same bugs - should you put them against each test you did ? === yofel_ is now known as yofel [15:44] ochosi: got the environment all setup, going to bed now :) [15:44] Ill be up in 12h [16:07] madnick: ok, ttyl then [16:07] knome: thanks for correction and publication then [17:05] ochosi, np [17:05] pleia2: could you share today's post on x.org by me on g+? i mean i can do it via my own profile, but i think the "official" xubuntu channel would be better. if you do so, please change the last paragraph to "feedback is welcome _here_" instead of irc and ml :) [17:06] knome: btw, currently i'm using the lower panel not as launcher, but as "dock", meaning i have my open windows there [17:06] ochosi, aha [17:06] knome: it's really nice, but otoh makes the top-panel almost useless ;) [17:07] ochosi, i'm currently using a non-default, not-completely-conservative-layout too [17:07] ochosi: yep [17:07] reminds me of the days when xubuntu had the gnome2-panel setup [17:07] pleia2: thanks a bunch! [17:08] knome: what's your setup then? [17:08] sec, upping a shot [17:08] ochosi, http://temp.knome.fi/other/shot-panel-layout.png [17:08] ochosi, both are 90% of the monitor width, non-hide [17:08] ochosi, the top panel only has the window list [17:09] ochosi, and the top panel expands automatically to 100% if needed (== if many windows open) [17:09] mhm [17:09] actually xfce4.10 panel has quite a few nice feats [17:09] ochosi, and both the panels have separators at both ends, bringing some visual "breathing space" [17:09] you should really pull latest greybird to tell me about the panel-style :) [17:09] heh [17:09] mhm, i noticed [17:10] oh, you noticed the top panel right-hand separator? ;] [17:10] but actually i'm so happy about the new panel style that on second thought maybe don't tell me about it :) [17:10] hehe, yeah of course... :) [17:10] heh, maybe i should [17:10] anyway, off for dinner [17:10] ttyl [17:10] ba [17:10] pleia2, hai [17:10] pleia2, you prolly got my mail about the long testcase [17:11] knome: yeah, I'll try to have a look at it tonight [17:11] pleia2, yup, np; if you have questions though, feel free to ping [17:12] thanks :) [17:13] well, i have much more time for these kinds of things now [17:13] as i put it to my friends; [17:14] i, as the XPL, decide the direction of the project and about any new features/changes and janne, as the QA lead, makes sure the quality stays [17:14] ;) [17:14] (that's not the serious reason) [17:15] knome: o/ [17:22] hey GridCube [17:32] when can we meet to talk? not today [17:33] i discussed this with ochosi today, we need to schedule soon [17:34] good :) [17:39] pleia2: one more thing, would you mind to change "GreyBird" to "Greybird"? [17:40] ochosi: fixed, sorry :) [17:40] pleia2: np, thanks again!:) [17:41] pleia2: btw, i think i completely forgot about the xubuntu/ubuntu-women-stickers [17:41] ochosi: yep you did! [17:41] pleia2: i wanted to order some from you, if you still have some [17:41] I think I'll do a personal blog post about giving them away [17:41] sounds good [17:41] yeah sure, just email me your address: lyz@ubuntu.com [17:41] ok, email me back your account details so i can send you some retribution [17:43] ok, sent