| === diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan | ||
| mattt | morning | 04:58 |
|---|---|---|
| daubers | morning | 05:46 |
| AlanBell | morning all | 06:53 |
| DJones | Morning | 07:00 |
| MooDoo | morning all | 07:02 |
| czajkowski | morning | 07:26 |
| Flashtek | merning | 07:29 |
| dwatkins | hiya | 07:42 |
| popey | morning | 07:48 |
| === alan_g is now known as alan_g|afk | ||
| * directhex reaches inescapable conclusion: Qt is bloated | 08:15 | |
| diplo | Morning | 08:18 |
| popey | http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/06/finally-unity-3d-game-engine-adds-linux.html golly | 08:18 |
| popey | thats good isnt it? | 08:18 |
| BigRedS | I was very confused at all these "unity support for linux" headlines I was seeing | 08:19 |
| directhex | popey, depends. | 08:20 |
| directhex | popey, it's good if you want more games on linux. it's bad if you hate mono | 08:20 |
| gord | i didn't think unity used mono | 08:22 |
| directhex | the unity3d game engine is all mono. that's what makes it funny that microsoft used unity3d to make ipad games | 08:22 |
| gord | ha, neat. mono is cool | 08:22 |
| directhex | and i'm just waiting on a review to upload monogame (bastion's engine) to debian | 08:23 |
| gord | though i get the feeling most people building the games for linux will just build once before releasing in the humle bumble and it will be a buggy mess | 08:24 |
| BigRedS | yeah, I'm generally wary of anything cross-platform until the developer is, too | 08:30 |
| bigcalm | Good morning peeps :) | 08:33 |
| AlanBell | morning bigcalm | 08:34 |
| oimon | anyone know how to create separate rsyslog logs based upon source host when colecting logs centrally? | 08:34 |
| bigcalm | AlanBell: as predicted, Hayley would love to go to the BBQ. But we both agreed that we can't justify the expense right now. She's looking forward to catching up with you guys on the RAT though :) | 08:35 |
| AlanBell | yeah, RAT will be fun | 08:38 |
| === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk | ||
| AlanBell | so will the BBQ http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1824/detail/ | 08:56 |
| JamesTai1 | Good morning all! :) | 08:57 |
| === JamesTai1 is now known as JamesTait | ||
| JamesTait | AlanBell: I think your predicition for when summer will be is off - it started yesterday and ends today. ;) | 08:59 |
| gord | anyone here happen to be a zen customer? or have any opinions on them as an isp? | 09:00 |
| diplo | gord: I am not a customer but we have lots of customers of ours who use them and are happy. Also a guy in the office here also uses them and says he has had good service, not heard awful things is probably where I am going with this :) | 09:05 |
| gord | they look a bit expensive, but it looks like they don't do dumb things like traffic shape, hard to find a good fibre isp | 09:06 |
| diplo | I think costs are probably helping them with maybe not doing shaping ? | 09:07 |
| diplo | That's why I don't go with the cheapest for customers | 09:07 |
| gord | maybe, though they do have limits which i don't like at all. hate that feeling | 09:08 |
| diplo | I'm with Sky, not hit any limits yet | 09:09 |
| dwatkins | gord: my dad's with Zen, he is quite happy with them despite only getting 6 MBit a mile from the exchange (small village) | 09:11 |
| ikonia | Zen are golden | 09:12 |
| gord | 6mbit on fibre? | 09:12 |
| ikonia | I get 70MB | 09:12 |
| dwatkins | I'm with BeThere - no limits, and consistently fast unencumbered internets | 09:12 |
| dwatkins | gord: no, copper | 09:12 |
| ikonia | well 69.8 | 09:12 |
| gord | i'm on Be, but they started blocking websites and don't have a fibre plan at all, so shopping about | 09:13 |
| dwatkins | I was tempted to choose BT's fibre-to-the-cabinett 'infinity' offering, but by then I was fed up with their idiocy. | 09:13 |
| gord | zen basically resell that | 09:13 |
| gord | so its bt infinity, without the idiocy | 09:14 |
| ikonia | Zen will do that for you with zero idiocy | 09:14 |
| dwatkins | I suspect my dad's village doesn't have that quite yet, though. | 09:14 |
| ikonia | I can't speak well enough about Zen | 09:14 |
| dwatkins | Line enabled for Fibre Broadband:No | 09:14 |
| gord | ikonia, have to use their router? | 09:15 |
| dwatkins | sadly the equivalent tool on BeThere's website is still down | 09:15 |
| bigcalm | Is there a site one can use to see if fibre is coming to one's area? | 09:15 |
| bigcalm | We're in a VM cabled area, so think it unlikely | 09:15 |
| dwatkins | bigcalm: this might be useful: http://www.zen.co.uk/business/broadband/fibre-broadband/bt-exchanges-scheduled-to-be-fttc-enabled.aspx | 09:16 |
| AlanBell | BT infinity through a reseller is the way to go, I use plus net | 09:16 |
| bigcalm | dwatkins: ta | 09:16 |
| bigcalm | Wow, it is coming to the local town | 09:17 |
| dwatkins | I'm surprised my dad's exchange isn't on there | 09:17 |
| diplo | bigcalm: I'm in cabled area and we already have Infinity | 09:17 |
| AlanBell | openreach are putting posters on street cabinets when they get FTTC | 09:17 |
| bigcalm | On google maps, our village looks to be part of the local town. So maybe we'll get it | 09:17 |
| diplo | yeah thats what made melook AlanBell | 09:18 |
| diplo | Noticed it on one near me | 09:18 |
| bigcalm | If we ever lose our Mates Rates from VM, I'll be shopping around | 09:18 |
| diplo | Yet the place I really want it ( this office ) doesnn't have it yet, but on initial release of Infinity it was supposed to be done before my estate :( | 09:18 |
| diplo | Site doesn't work that well for checking, set to unknown at the mo | 09:20 |
| directhex | i'm on Infinity. not via a reseller as BT are uncapped and resellers are capped. | 09:22 |
| gord | if you are in a cable area, is infinity really that attractive? | 09:26 |
| directhex | i'm not in a cable area, sadly | 09:27 |
| daubers | gord: More attractive than the fail that is VM | 09:28 |
| diplo | I was with Blueyonder then Virgin for about 12 years or so | 09:29 |
| diplo | Service went downhill over the last 2 years or so | 09:29 |
| DJones | Argh, why do I spend 30 minutes checking the broadband connection, restarting the router, making sure the servers are powered up and running, only to find that the reason we've lost all internet & server access is beacuse somebody turned a mini switch off | 09:29 |
| diplo | Any sort of torrents and the line would come to a halt | 09:29 |
| diplo | DJones: Nagios or something to monitor switches / routers | 09:30 |
| diplo | :) | 09:30 |
| DJones | diplo: What have can you suggest that monitors people moving their bin/handbag to knock the power switch though? 6 inch nails to nail their hands to teh desk | 09:31 |
| bigcalm | Sounds reasonable | 09:32 |
| AlanBell | DJones: gaffer tape should be sufficient | 09:32 |
| BigRedS | put things with power switches in boxes? | 09:32 |
| brobostigon | good morning everyone, | 09:32 |
| BigRedS | g'morning! | 09:32 |
| DJones | AlanBell: But not as much fun | 09:32 |
| brobostigon | morning BigRedS | 09:33 |
| DJones | BigRedS: Getting a box to put something in would be harder than getting some rocking horse manure for the weeds outside the office, for a business that can't work without its computers, IT spending is none existant | 09:34 |
| diplo | DJones: But you would have at least known it was the switch that had gone down ? | 09:34 |
| directhex | today's blogging flamebait is gonna be fun <3 | 09:34 |
| diplo | And you can buy secure covers for power sockets, we sued them at my last place | 09:34 |
| diplo | http://www.pluglock.co.uk/ | 09:35 |
| diplo | Cleaners used to unplug things at night, including servers at branches :) | 09:35 |
| DJones | I would love to get things like that, I can't even get the owners to replace the server, which has failed twice in the last year, power supply died & took 4 days to get a replacement via a junk shop (Yes, the server is that old) | 09:37 |
| DJones | 2nd time, the 40Gb drives on the server were full and need replacing or the server needs replacing, managed to free up 500Mb space so that it'd keep running for now | 09:38 |
| diplo | heh, we have customers like that | 09:39 |
| ikonia | gord: I use Zens' router for fiber, yes | 09:39 |
| diplo | One where someone broke some setup on a CentOS box, GLIBC_2 errors not found etc | 09:39 |
| diplo | That was probably a year ago, won't let us reinstall.. we just fix things as they break | 09:40 |
| DJones | Our IT support firm told the directors 2 years ago that the servers were held together with stick tape & hope | 09:40 |
| BigRedS | This opera-alike new-tab screen that just arrived in an update; is it part of the Ubuntu firefox modifications or are Mozilla drunk? | 09:40 |
| diplo | heh, I miss those days DJones | 09:41 |
| BigRedS | DJones: telling them never works. You need to engineer downtime | 09:41 |
| ikonia | BigRedS: mozilla | 09:41 |
| BigRedS | :( | 09:41 |
| diplo | I don't have to deal with these people anymore, I just fix the stuff the other guys can't now adays | 09:41 |
| BigRedS | it's incredibly poorly done | 09:41 |
| DJones | BigRedS: I don't need to "engineer" downtime, it happens often enough on its own | 09:41 |
| diplo | lol | 09:41 |
| BigRedS | DJones: if they still don't want the fixes, clearly not enough :) | 09:42 |
| DJones | BigRedS: They want the fixes, they just want them for free | 09:42 |
| directhex | ikonia, you're about a lot today. things calmer at work? | 09:44 |
| DJones | My attitude now is, if it doesn't affect me, I leave it, if I did anything, nothing would happen anyway. I back my stuff up locally so & can keep working, I leave the rest to the people who don't know enough about it, but know enough that they won't pay for fixes | 09:45 |
| BigRedS | ah yeah, I was broadly in that position by the time they made me redundant. I went through a long phase of working quite hard to make it obvious that we needed upgrades or changes in policy and much of it did work, but it was _so_ much extra work, and on top of the work I was supposed to be doing | 09:47 |
| diplo | DJones: I moved to pretty much the same mindset before I left the last company... they stopped paying for stuff, they stopped paying ANY overtime etc so I just looked after myself after that | 09:47 |
| BigRedS | oh yeah, when I started needing to prearrange overtime I stopped doing anything unneccesary | 09:47 |
| diplo | I think it seems we all go through the same **** but at different comapnies :) | 09:48 |
| BigRedS | even got asked to stop fixing the mailserver 'cause it was 5pm once. | 09:48 |
| diplo | Well the company that has taken over the place I worked at refuses to let me colleague fix stuff out of hours | 09:48 |
| diplo | and the people who use the software/hardware during the day refuse to let him do anything during the say | 09:49 |
| diplo | day* | 09:49 |
| diplo | So he is now doing nothing | 09:49 |
| diplo | :) | 09:49 |
| DJones | At least you work in IT, its not even my job | 09:49 |
| DJones | When you do get to fix things, you have the tools/support/advice etc you need | 09:50 |
| diplo | I forget that people in here are not in IT Aswell :) | 09:51 |
| diplo | What is your job DJones ? If you don't mind ? | 09:51 |
| DJones | Accounts | 09:52 |
| DJones | I'm the finance manager at a luxury holiday firm | 09:52 |
| diplo | oh right, know where to get some deals now then | 09:54 |
| diplo | Slip in some discounts as the invoices go through | 09:54 |
| DJones | Heh | 09:54 |
| BigRedS | ah yeah, I keep making the same mistake as diplo | 09:55 |
| DJones | diplo: Just checked the price list, I can do Barbados (subject to availability) for about £45,000 per week, that does include a house manager, chef, butler, maid, laundress, boatman & a night watchman, you pay extra for food | 10:02 |
| bigcalm | DJones: after all of the costs of employment etc, what's the margin? | 10:03 |
| DJones | We aim to make about 15% on each booking, the villa's are owned by 3rd parties, we just act as an agent | 10:04 |
| bigcalm | I see | 10:05 |
| bigcalm | DJones: sounds like one of my main clients who rent out apartments in Paris | 10:06 |
| bigcalm | And Italy and London now | 10:06 |
| DJones | To me, what some people are prepared to pay is silly money, but I guess they've got the money and can afford it out of their loose change | 10:06 |
| bigcalm | Yup | 10:07 |
| bigcalm | I've set up vtiger and civicrm for my Father to play with. Still on the look out for a web app to manage club membership. Anybody got any suggestions for off the self, open source, Linux based apps? | 10:09 |
| ubuntuuk-planet | [Jo Shields] Enormity - http://apebox.org/wordpress/rants/416/ | 10:10 |
| directhex | aha | 10:11 |
| diplo | DJones: Sorry was away... I'll book 2 weeks at that price please! | 10:11 |
| DJones | Do you have your own transport/plane/boat, or do you want flights as well :) | 10:12 |
| diplo | heh, LearJet please | 10:12 |
| DJones | :) | 10:12 |
| diplo | heh directhex, still trying to get people to believe you I see :) | 10:19 |
| diplo | I think the people that don't listen are the ones you won't change there minds with proof or not | 10:20 |
| BigRedS | I don't remember the last time I was particularly concerned about the amount of diskspace a particular install would require | 10:27 |
| BigRedS | partculary not when it's tens of MB | 10:27 |
| diplo | I don't think they mean it like that, well not how i take it | 10:31 |
| diplo | I feel it meant bloated as in deps etc to do anything | 10:31 |
| diplo | Or it could be i got the wrong end of the stick :D | 10:33 |
| BigRedS | yeah, that's still what I meant | 10:42 |
| BigRedS | if AppA requires 100MB and AppB requires 6MB I'd still be more interested in how good each is than that 90MB of disk space | 10:42 |
| diplo | Same here, but I think what I put earlier is what the others bitch about | 10:44 |
| diplo | Pointless.. but yeah | 10:44 |
| oimon | why do people on this youtube video have blue faces? | 11:10 |
| oimon | hint: it's not avatar or the smurfs | 11:11 |
| AlanBell | because you are using flash | 11:11 |
| oimon | did they break it? | 11:11 |
| BigRedS | flash *is* them breaking it | 11:11 |
| * oimon has no sound too :-\ | 11:11 | |
| AlanBell | yeah, they announced their final version for linux and broke it on nvidia as they did so | 11:11 |
| oimon | since logging into lxde i think that issue was | 11:11 |
| oimon | how long has it been broken? | 11:12 |
| AlanBell | https://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3109467 | 11:12 |
| oimon | i think i didn't notice because i was usually logged into chromium which is using html5 when i'm logged in | 11:12 |
| AlanBell | bug 967091 has a workaround (disable accelleration) | 11:14 |
| lubotu3 | Launchpad bug 967091 in adobe-flashplugin (Ubuntu) "Wrong tint in flash when it uses video acceleration" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967091 | 11:14 |
| oimon | no sound in lubuntu ...any ideas anyone? | 11:15 |
| oimon | all i hear is hiss | 11:15 |
| czajkowski | #lubuntu | 11:15 |
| oimon | alsamixer headphone setting is 00 | 11:15 |
| czajkowski | ask in #lubuntu perhaps | 11:15 |
| oimon | it's probably related to installing lxde on top of ubuntu..i'll try them tho | 11:19 |
| BigRedS | if you install lubuntu-desktop then it's no excuse for breaking | 11:21 |
| oimon | i agree | 11:21 |
| oimon | installing lubuntu-desktop =/= installing lubuntu though | 11:21 |
| oimon | lots of quirky theme issues i woulnd't otherwise see | 11:21 |
| popey | lubuntu doesnt use pulse i think | 11:21 |
| popey | oimon: you seem to change desktop a lot! | 11:22 |
| oimon | only since unity :s | 11:22 |
| oimon | lxde +xcompmgr + docky + gnome do is good for me atm and stable | 11:22 |
| oimon | maybe if elementary get round to releasing i'lll be happy with that. | 11:22 |
| oimon | i was on gnome-fallback and happy but had odd issues with the systray and performance issues | 11:23 |
| * AlanBell is using gnome-fallback at the moment | 11:23 | |
| * diplo is waiting for oimon to come together with a good solution before reinstalling | 11:23 | |
| diplo | Takes the hassle out of playing with lots of DE | 11:24 |
| AlanBell | annoyed at how much I like it compared to unity | 11:24 |
| diplo | 's | 11:24 |
| oimon | :D | 11:24 |
| * BigRedS uses Gnome3 | 11:24 | |
| oimon | lxde as presented by lubuntu is very nice | 11:24 |
| BigRedS | well, gnome-session | 11:24 |
| diplo | AlanBell: same here, partially familiarity but for me it's more becuase it's more stable | 11:24 |
| oimon | stock lxde is not so pretty | 11:24 |
| oimon | i am amazed at the speed of lxde , and functionality is equal to gnome2 | 11:25 |
| BigRedS | I tried XFCE the other day, it feels _so_ dated now I'm used to gnome session and unity | 11:25 |
| BigRedS | even the ubuntu one which is basically Gnome2 prettiness | 11:25 |
| AlanBell | I do like lenses as a concept and I am OK with the launcher and quicklists | 11:26 |
| AlanBell | just wish the nux stuff worked better | 11:27 |
| dogmatic69 | encrypted home was the biggest mistake ever :/ | 11:27 |
| BigRedS | I think I'd like lenses if they didn't take so long to start working | 11:27 |
| AlanBell | having an alt-tab that does what I expect is nice | 11:27 |
| BigRedS | and, generally, they just take a while. which is great if you're searching, but I'm normally not | 11:27 |
| BigRedS | so I type what I want and hit enter, and it's still got the search result from the first four characters so it runs that... | 11:28 |
| BigRedS | I've reverted to the old alt-tab, and when I use unity it's with only one workspace | 11:28 |
| BigRedS | it seems a lot like that's what it's designed for | 11:29 |
| AlanBell | yeah, I tend not to use additional workspaces with unity, but I did loads when I used the cube | 11:30 |
| Myrtti | I just configure the workspaces to be side by side rather than a grid | 11:31 |
| BigRedS | yeah, i just find that it's a lot less surprising on a single workspace | 11:32 |
| oimon | i hear synapse uses zeitgeist too | 11:42 |
| oimon | the moment i get a spare hour at work i'm installing lubuntu from fresh | 11:43 |
| TheFred | hello | 12:58 |
| MartijnVdS | I've removed zeitgeist | 13:11 |
| MartijnVdS | too much disk i/o | 13:11 |
| gord | MartijnVdS, is that based on any statistics? | 13:27 |
| BigRedS | well, *any* I/O supporting something I don't use is too much :) | 13:28 |
| gord | zeitgeist is explicitly designed to minimise disk i/o, it relies on outside sources to inform it of changes to the disk | 13:28 |
| gord | thats the point, it doesn't. gedit says "hey Zeitgeist, i saved a file!" and Zeitgeist goes "okay, recording that!" | 13:28 |
| BigRedS | oh, so it only gets data from things that are aware of it? | 13:29 |
| gord | pretty much, though i don't know all the in's and outs and there are extensions that do random stuff, but that is the general idea | 13:29 |
| BigRedS | ahh | 13:29 |
| daubers | 3I thought zeitgeist did some inotify type magic too? | 13:42 |
| gord | the idea is not to have to do that, because it causes wake-ups | 13:43 |
| gord | i think we might do something like that explicitly for unity, to watch ~/Downloads or something | 13:43 |
| daubers | Ah. I know it did at one point, because I kept running out of notify handles :) Not had that recently though | 13:43 |
| AlanBell | UbuntuOne kills your notify handles | 13:45 |
| daubers | Haven't noticed that too much... but don't have much in U1 anyway | 13:47 |
| gord | surely u1 should be just putting a watch on each shared directory? | 13:50 |
| AlanBell | yeah, I put my projects directory in U1 then did a few things like branching unity and compiz there | 13:52 |
| AlanBell | 100% CPU for a few hours and a couple of days to sync and inotify broke | 13:52 |
| gord | fun, filed a bug? u1 shouldn't make that many handles | 13:53 |
| AlanBell | I now don't use U1 for that kind of area where I could suddenly create a few thousand small files | 13:53 |
| popey | wfm ⍨ | 13:53 |
| BigRedS | surely all that was under some other version control anyway? | 13:54 |
| AlanBell | BigRedS: sure, I just pointed U1 at my projects folder because it would be nice to have it sync to other machines | 13:54 |
| MartijnVdS | gord: it's based on my experience | 13:55 |
| MartijnVdS | gord: system slow. Purge zeitgeist, kill zeitgeist. System fast. | 13:56 |
| AlanBell | what php performance tweaks are good to do? I have installed php-apc, is there other magic stuff to make it fast? | 14:01 |
| BigRedS | AlanBell: depends on the site generally. There's some tuning of APC you can do but it's rarely needed | 14:02 |
| BigRedS | generally, the biggest problem with running PHP is the programmer | 14:02 |
| BigRedS | most tweaks we make are to send MySQL query stats to the programmer and get them to not do such stupid things with the database | 14:03 |
| AlanBell | yeah, I think this could use some optimisation | 14:05 |
| AlanBell | pushing bigish data into vtiger | 14:05 |
| bigcalm | AlanBell: my dad finally got to play with vtiger. Well, he looked at the site I set up for him. Haven't heard anything for a few days. I feel for his safety | 14:08 |
| AlanBell | heh | 14:08 |
| AlanBell | is memcached as exciting as it sounds? | 14:08 |
| mgdm | it's nto exciting, but it really works | 14:09 |
| diplo | Guys use it at my work place, not had any need to touch it myself yet | 14:09 |
| diplo | Don't FB use it in a big way | 14:09 |
| diplo | ? | 14:09 |
| AlanBell | yeah, I think they wrote it | 14:09 |
| mgdm | yeah, they have a couple of hundred terabytes of it | 14:09 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: No, LiveJournal did | 14:09 |
| AlanBell | oh, ok | 14:10 |
| mgdm | APC is the obvious PHP tweak. Memcached is not something you can just drop in, unless your app is built for it | 14:10 |
| AlanBell | BigRedS: how do you get the mysql query stats? | 14:11 |
| bigcalm | Take cakephp 1.1 app that works on php 5.2. Upgrade to PHP 5.3 and find the cakephp 1.1 app doesn't work. Install APC. Cakephp 1.1 app works! | 14:12 |
| bigcalm | APC is magic | 14:12 |
| mgdm | bigcalm: that's just weird, there is no reason for that to happen | 14:12 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: there are tools like xhprof which can show you really detailed things about the guts of your app | 14:12 |
| bigcalm | mgdm: I agree | 14:12 |
| mgdm | but that might be a little low level | 14:12 |
| mgdm | New Relic is *really* nice, but $$$ | 14:13 |
| bigcalm | http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/dp/B003BIFSFK £47 quid to add traffic fun to my satnav. Is it worth it I wonder? | 14:18 |
| balor | czajkowski, Are you honestly trying to convince people to move from git to bzr? | 14:21 |
| czajkowski | balor: hello there :) | 14:24 |
| czajkowski | balor: I dont need to convience was meerly pointing out a useful document | 14:24 |
| * AlanBell wonders if launchpad will support git code hosting at some point | 14:25 | |
| balor | czajkowski, ah. I have used bazaar since before its tla days, and even I've switched to git. | 14:25 |
| AlanBell | to be honest what I want it to do is render documentation like github does with the README.md stuff | 14:25 |
| czajkowski | balor: yes but you're not normal now are you :) | 14:26 |
| balor | czajkowski, probably not. I prefer darcs to either bzr or git. But the rest of the world uses git, so I have to conform. | 14:27 |
| czajkowski | hah you conform | 14:29 |
| czajkowski | now there is a first :) | 14:29 |
| balor | czajkowski, They're making me use Windows in work | 14:30 |
| czajkowski | balor: and you haven't stomped your feet | 14:31 |
| czajkowski | for shame! :) | 14:31 |
| czajkowski | call yourself a geek :p | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | AlanBell: slow query log | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | it's in the my.cnf, then there's a mysql slow query log analyser which was from maatkit and I think is now offline | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | I can send you a copy though. The guy who wrote it went to percona and stopped being so freely useful :) | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | 99% of the time you can just check the logs yourself and sneakily add indexes, but sometimes you can see that four million rows are being selected and the page is only showing the first five or something | 14:32 |
| balor | czajkowski, I've been stomping for years. It's now time to give them what they want, and then see if they actually want it. | 14:32 |
| czajkowski | balor: hehe | 14:33 |
| AlanBell | BigRedS: that would be cool, I just turned on slow query logging and non-indexed queries, doesn't look like it makes any unindexed queries | 14:38 |
| AlanBell | just rather a *lot* of small queries I expect | 14:38 |
| daubers | I'd forgotten how much better my sennheisers where than my logitech USB headphones | 14:39 |
| bigcalm | AlanBell: I had this same problem last week. Logging didn't show me what was wrong. Ended up using micro timers in the PHP around functions until I found the one taking up the most time | 14:39 |
| BigRedS | AlanBell: what is this you're running? If it's a 'proper' project (i.e. OSS) it's probably fine | 14:40 |
| BigRedS | but custom-written things seem to almost always completely misuse the db | 14:40 |
| bigcalm | Yep :D | 14:40 |
| bigcalm | Dealing with code from 2001 isn't healthy | 14:40 |
| AlanBell | BigRedS: vtiger, it is open source | 14:40 |
| BigRedS | you can profile the php, too, but it's less easy. The old adage of not optimising until you've run the code, have detected that it's slow *and* defined 'acceptable' holds, though :) | 14:41 |
| BigRedS | AlanBell: ah, yeah, that's likely to be fairly well behaved, then :) | 14:41 |
| AlanBell | the web services API to it is kinda sluggish (in fact the whole thing is underperforming a bit) | 14:41 |
| mgdm | xhprof \o/ | 14:41 |
| BigRedS | yeah, I was just going to say that there's proper tools for profiling these things, and mgdm will know what they are :) | 14:42 |
| * diplo takes a look at xhprof | 14:47 | |
| diplo | Might have to have a play with that xhprof | 15:01 |
| AlanBell | logging sql queries is quite instructive | 15:01 |
| diplo | Looks quite good, never bothered profiling any of our stuff before | 15:01 |
| AlanBell | using web services to create one contact record causes 118 sql queries to happen | 15:01 |
| diplo | jeesh, thatvtiger? | 15:02 |
| diplo | My space bar sucks! :( | 15:02 |
| AlanBell | yeah, viger | 15:03 |
| AlanBell | t | 15:03 |
| diplo | Seems a quite good package, took a look the other week after you mentioned it | 15:03 |
| diplo | czajkowski: Any ideas on pay on that job you just posted? | 15:04 |
| czajkowski | diplo: nope sorry | 15:04 |
| AlanBell | yeah, it is OK for a PHP application, and performs fine most of the time, I just think it can go faster | 15:04 |
| * AlanBell always used to take toys apart to make them go faster | 15:05 | |
| diplo | heh, why not if it's there to be tinkered with tinker away | 15:05 |
| diplo | But as you say 118 queries | 15:05 |
| diplo | ! | 15:05 |
| diplo | We have had to catch our developers on simialr issues with our in house app AlanBell | 15:06 |
| diplo | They were loading every .js .css file on every page loaded | 15:06 |
| AlanBell | it does 112 selects and 6 inserts | 15:06 |
| AlanBell | I am thinking of getting my import routine to generate those inserts and cut out the other junk | 15:07 |
| diplo | It was putting 2+ sec time on loads | 15:07 |
| czajkowski | diplo: you can always ask HR or talk to them they know tbh | 15:07 |
| diplo | yeah, wasn't 100% interested in the job.. peeked my interest a little | 15:08 |
| diplo | thanks, will keep it in mind | 15:08 |
| diplo | Are Canonical quite flexible on hours ? | 15:08 |
| diplo | So say i started at 8am and finished at 5pm, but one day a week i couldn't start till 9am.. | 15:09 |
| diplo | Do they allow for stuff like that ? | 15:09 |
| diplo | Been interested in a few jobs on the site, but in my situation now I need to be able to sort my kids out | 15:09 |
| diplo | *From your experience ( Not asking for a definitive answer ) | 15:10 |
| diplo | AlanBell: Lot's of tables to have that many inserts/selects ? | 15:10 |
| AlanBell | yeah, it is a full tablefest | 15:10 |
| diplo | heh, nothing ever prepared me for SAP's structure and I don't think anything can ever be as bad | 15:12 |
| directhex | davical is ~40 tables | 15:13 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | vtiger ~ 500 | 15:13 |
| czajkowski | diplo: very kid friendly | 15:13 |
| diplo | \o/ | 15:13 |
| diplo | thanks | 15:13 |
| directhex | TheOpenSourcerer, davical is just a calendar server | 15:13 |
| czajkowski | some folks start later to do school runs | 15:13 |
| czajkowski | others finish early to do schools, and others split it really depends on the team but it is very flexible | 15:14 |
| gord | that reminds me, need to fabricate some children so i can have "emergencies".. "oh no, timmy ran into the chainsaw in the garage again, gotta go take him to the video games. i mean hospital. hospital not video games" | 15:14 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Yeah - I know directhex | 15:14 |
| diplo | SAPs initial install for the DB was 120GB empty.... i think | 15:14 |
| diplo | from memory | 15:14 |
| diplo | That's exactly my issue czajkowski, thanks, drop them at school @ 8:30 and pick up at 3:30 on amonday and once every other friday | 15:15 |
| czajkowski | gord: Tim.. Tim..... TIMMY!!! | 15:15 |
| diplo | Worried that will cause me issues in other companies, currents one is flexible but I'm really not enjoying my job :( | 15:15 |
| czajkowski | diplo: pretty standard from what I can see, I dont' have kids, but most of my team does and nobody bats an eyelid | 15:15 |
| diplo | heh gord, just read yours | 15:18 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | we are [will be] a child friendly employer | 15:18 |
| diplo | Must send you my CV at some point :) | 15:19 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Feel free to do that diplo | 15:19 |
| * AlanBell thoroughly approves of child labour | 15:19 | |
| * mgdm has a talk he has done on occasion about making websites fast | 15:19 | |
| mgdm | I'll dig out the slides if anyone wants | 15:19 |
| diplo | I really think my 5 year old wants to do more, I'm scared to let him on to the PC's to much | 15:19 |
| AlanBell | oh, does child friendly not mean that? | 15:19 |
| diplo | mgdm: I'm interested | 15:20 |
| mgdm | diplo: email me your address - mgdm@php.net - it'll help me remember :-) | 15:20 |
| mgdm | whe I say 'address' I mean 'email', clearly :) | 15:20 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | My son is beating me up - he wants MOAR SPEED on his PC - to play Minecraft... And do stop-motion videos | 15:21 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | It's pretty old now so I do feel for him... An AMD 3400+ IIRC | 15:21 |
| diplo | Done, as I'd forget otherwise | 15:21 |
| diplo | TheOpenSourcerer: How old ? | 15:22 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | 11 | 15:22 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | This is the kind pof thing he's into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOqT711zQWo | 15:22 |
| diplo | Ah mines only 5, turning 6 in Sept. But about 9 in his head :) | 15:22 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I have a 7yr old too. | 15:23 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | he's also needing moar speed. | 15:23 |
| diplo | So clever, the 4 year old was on the laptop I have for them the other day trying to swipe the screen to change pages, wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry | 15:23 |
| matti | diplo: Hahah | 15:24 |
| diplo | Wouldn't have had a clue at their agge | 15:24 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I introduced them to Scratch a few weeks ago. gave them a 1/2 hr run through then left them to it. They made a simple Pacman type game in a few hours. | 15:24 |
| diplo | mgdm: Guessing that would explain some of the php knowledge from the email address :) | 15:25 |
| popey | TheOpenSourcerer: what video card does it have? | 15:26 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Some (very)old nvidia thinggy | 15:26 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | with 4 stream processors running at 30Hz IIRC. | 15:27 |
| popey | find out what it is, I may have a better one you can have | 15:27 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | PCI | 15:27 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Not PCIe | 15:27 |
| mgdm | diplo: possibly :-) | 15:27 |
| popey | ah | 15:27 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | or anything later | 15:27 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Mobo is an Asus asus A8N-SLI Delux IIRC | 15:28 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Ahh - So it will be PCIe | 15:28 |
| popey | yeah | 15:28 |
| popey | i have one in my old desktop | 15:28 |
| popey | i may have something, lemme look when i get home | 15:29 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I'll do a lspci on it. I can WoL it from here. | 15:29 |
| popey | ok | 15:30 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | popey: 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV37GL [Quadro FX 330/GeForce PCX 5300] (rev a2) | 15:34 |
| jacobw | TheOpenSourcerer: scratch is used by the open university | 16:13 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| === schwuk is now known as schwuk_away | ||
| ali1234 | scratch is app inventor renamed right? | 16:54 |
| jacobw | i don't think so | 16:56 |
| jacobw | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_%28programming_language%29 | 16:56 |
| ali1234 | the "programming language" part looks identical | 16:56 |
| Flashtek | damnit.. why can't i change my V5c addresses online... | 17:20 |
| AlanBell | ali1234 scratch pre-dates app inventor by some margin | 17:43 |
| ali1234 | yeah i saw that. they are closely related though. makes sense that google gave the source to MIT too | 17:44 |
| ali1234 | also: submitted merge request with spelling fixes. maintainer merges it, and spells my name wrong :) | 17:45 |
| AlanBell | http://ronaldbradford.com/blog/last_insert_idexpr-the-lesser-known-usage-2007-09-12/ this is the slowest query that mysql does | 17:45 |
| AlanBell | update vtiger_crmentity_seq set id=LAST_INSERT_ID(id+1); | 17:46 |
| diplo | evening all | 17:51 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: I get that all the time | 17:52 |
| diplo | 10.10 dual screen, I have a 24" 2407 and 20" 2007, 20" on the left and landscape | 17:53 |
| diplo | Can't get nvidia settings to change on the left screen | 17:53 |
| diplo | Any tips / tools any one can recommend ? | 17:53 |
| ali1234 | change what? | 17:54 |
| MartijnVdS | diplo: buy intel :P\ | 17:54 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: there's no way on earth that can be the slowest query | 17:54 |
| diplo | The orientation ( missed that bit ) | 17:54 |
| diplo | Got intel on board, this is a 8800GTX | 17:54 |
| ali1234 | i didn't know nvidia settings could do that | 17:55 |
| AlanBell | mgdm: thats what I thought too | 17:55 |
| mgdm | t might have been in that particular run | 17:55 |
| diplo | It can't that I can find ali1234 | 17:55 |
| mgdm | the important thing about profiling is don't get hung up on the outliers | 17:55 |
| diplo | Trying to find something else if possible | 17:55 |
| mgdm | look at the 95% time | 17:55 |
| AlanBell | really, it is that | 17:56 |
| AlanBell | pt-query-digest mysql-slow.log -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1049546/ | 17:57 |
| AlanBell | so, that is two cold runs of inserting 100 contacts through the web services interface | 17:59 |
| AlanBell | the PARTITIONS and TABLES queries don't count as they only happened once per restart of mysql | 17:59 |
| mgdm | weird | 18:00 |
| AlanBell | yeah, I am trying to understand the side effects of LAST_INSERT_ID | 18:00 |
| diplo | I use it on my sites AlanBell probably for similar reasons, as it's for my contact info i use it on mine | 18:01 |
| AlanBell | it does a vast number of queries on the vtiger_ws_entity_fieldtype table which mostly return nothing, but they return fast | 18:02 |
| AlanBell | I am not sure if this measures all of the overhead for doing a query | 18:02 |
| AlanBell | mgdm: I am seeing lots of places to download xhprof from but it isn't in the repos, which installation method would you recommend? | 18:07 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: github.com/preinheimer/xhprof | 18:08 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: that variant makes the UI somewhat less insane | 18:08 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: you can compile the extension as long as you have 'php5-dev' installed - go into the extension directory and do 'phpize', './configure', 'make', then 'sudo make install' | 18:09 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: it only puts one file into the PHP modules dir, and then you need to put 'extension=xhprof.so' into /etc/php5/conf.d/xhprof.ini | 18:09 |
| AlanBell | great | 18:09 |
| directhex | http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2011/12/08/kingston-hyper-x-240gb-review/1 for £132 delivered. | 18:18 |
| diplo | Before I pick a random scrolling banner like this one, can anyone recommend anything ? | 18:23 |
| diplo | http://www.mclelun.com/labs/#jqbanner | 18:23 |
| mgdm | directhex: nice | 18:24 |
| mgdm | diplo: I used jQuery Cycle for that | 18:24 |
| diplo | ta, taking a look now | 18:25 |
| diplo | Well me and js still don't get on :) | 19:00 |
| * diplo goes watch telly for a bit and come back to it | 19:00 | |
| diplo | Could be the hacking I'm doing to Joomla, and breaking something there though :) | 19:00 |
| mgdm | eep | 19:03 |
| mgdm | I don't get on with Joomla | 19:03 |
| diplo | heh, a few people recommended it | 19:14 |
| diplo | Been asked if I can replace http://www.peopleagainstpoverty.com site | 19:14 |
| diplo | And I want mainly styling with a few added extras | 19:14 |
| diplo | I knew if i came back to it I'd fix it :) | 19:32 |
| MartijnVdS | Pendulum: Aw.. you're splitting up? http://www.supajam.com/news/story/Pendulum-to-split-up?tr=6190795 | 19:35 |
| DJones | diplo: If you do replace that website, run a spell check on the trustee's page before it goes public | 19:35 |
| diplo | heh, never looked at it. It's a charity where I work.. I like one of the girls in there :) | 19:37 |
| diplo | Will do though, and will advise them. | 19:37 |
| * diplo looks now actually | 19:37 | |
| DJones | Heh | 19:37 |
| DJones | Which charity do you work for? | 19:37 |
| diplo | Not me, the PAP website people are a charity, I've done some work for them recently | 19:38 |
| diplo | Helping out to get in a girls good books :) | 19:38 |
| DJones | Right, I'm with you | 19:38 |
| diplo | I said I'd have a look and see how much work is involved | 19:39 |
| diplo | Seems ok so far | 19:39 |
| mattt | tv advertisement for the macbook pro | 19:43 |
| mattt | don't recall seeing those before | 19:43 |
| diplo | So the Majority of this is going to be CSS | 19:45 |
| diplo | A little hacking | 19:45 |
| diplo | Might say I will do it :) | 19:45 |
| mgdm | I redid my website recently, wrote the CSS using LESS instead | 19:45 |
| === Hornet- is now known as Hornet | ||
| mgdm | which is like CSS, but you can nest things and use variables | 19:48 |
| mgdm | so instead of remembering your link colour is #33f you can define @linkcolor = #33f and use @linkcolor everywhere :-) | 19:48 |
| MartijnVdS | mgdm: they're adding support to Webkit for variables | 19:49 |
| mgdm | MartijnVdS: aye, but it's not quite the same thing | 19:49 |
| diplo | Might take a look at that mgdm, done a lot less web deb stuff in last few months | 19:49 |
| mgdm | the variables in LESS are a little more like #defines in the C preprocessor | 19:50 |
| AlanBell | yeah variables in CSS make a heap of sense | 19:50 |
| MartijnVdS | mgdm: aren't the webkit/css variables mostly the same? | 19:50 |
| mgdm | Hmm, actually, disregard that, i'd mixed them up with something | 19:50 |
| mgdm | MartijnVdS: I was thinking of something else | 19:50 |
| AlanBell | even if they were *just* for colours they would be really useful | 19:51 |
| popey | http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/ \o/ | 20:06 |
| MartijnVdS | ooh it's public | 20:06 |
| MartijnVdS | lots of very basic questions | 20:07 |
| MartijnVdS | to be expected of course :) | 20:07 |
| ali1234 | i see lots of questions that are exact dulicates of questions on other sites | 20:09 |
| popey | thats not surprising at all | 20:10 |
| mcphail | the only question I'm interested in is "when will mine pop through the letterbox?" | 20:11 |
| MartijnVdS | it's a whole new group of people discovering Linux | 20:11 |
| MartijnVdS | and not the most polished distro either | 20:11 |
| MartijnVdS | so questions like that are to be expected | 20:11 |
| diplo | mcphail: +1 | 20:12 |
| diplo | :/ | 20:12 |
| diplo | My work colleage has had his 2 weeks and it's still sat on his desk doing nothing :( | 20:12 |
| MartijnVdS | I have mine on my desk | 20:13 |
| MartijnVdS | in a nice case | 20:13 |
| mcphail | mine will be getting sellotaped to the back of the tv | 20:13 |
| MartijnVdS | I've installed Raspbian | 20:13 |
| diplo | I'm going to get a few eventually, I want 2 xbmc ones, and one as a low powered server to monitor stuff and maybe house automation eventually | 20:14 |
| ali1234 | the quality of answers is really poor too :( | 20:14 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: that you can fix | 20:14 |
| diplo | ali1234: I'd agree with that, people answering with more questions really :) | 20:14 |
| ali1234 | again, i'm not going to answer the same questions here that i've already answered on other sites | 20:15 |
| mcphail | diplo: i can recommed a sheevaplug as a low power arm server. I'm not sure the rasp pi is quite up to the task | 20:15 |
| ali1234 | which is why the answers are so poor, probably | 20:15 |
| ali1234 | this site shouldn't exist, all these questions should be asked on the main SE sites, where they will be instantly marked as duplicates of the questions with existing good answers | 20:15 |
| BigRedS | it does seem a little over-specific, but then there is the thinkpadlinux thing... | 20:16 |
| ali1234 | here is a classic example: http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/258/how-to-program-a-usb-device-with-debian-python?rq=1 | 20:17 |
| ali1234 | that question has nothing at all to do with raspberry pi | 20:17 |
| * mgdm never got into stackoverflow | 20:18 | |
| BigRedS | Is that notably different from a question about bash scripting on a Ubuntu forum? | 20:18 |
| mgdm | I search it, but have never asked or answered a question | 20:19 |
| ali1234 | no, it isn't | 20:19 |
| ali1234 | but stack exchange isn't a forum | 20:19 |
| BigRedS | well, a ubuntu stack exchange thing then | 20:20 |
| ali1234 | many people believe ask ubuntu shouldn't be a separate site either, and when it comes to thing like prgramming questions, they often get moved to main SE sites | 20:20 |
| ali1234 | if you ask a questionthat somehow involves ubuntu-specific APIs (like unity integration, or using quickly) then that's one thing | 20:21 |
| ali1234 | but if, for example, you ask a question like "how do i write a usb driver for my webcam?" then the question will at best be moved somewhere else, or at worst receive only bad answers (or no answers at all) | 20:22 |
| ali1234 | this is also why stack exchange discourages sites aimed at "beginners" and also dumped the tag for "beginner" questions. it's because if you make a site like that only beginners will use it and you won't ever get good answers. | 20:23 |
| BigRedS | yeah, beginner forums only work if you've already got a big community with experienced people who specifically want to help them | 20:26 |
| BigRedS | and even then they don't really | 20:27 |
| kane1309 | helllo | 20:31 |
| BigRedS | good morning | 20:33 |
| kane1309 | hello how do i get my minecraft in termial i forgot | 20:34 |
| BigRedS | er, java -jar <minecraft jar file> I think? | 20:36 |
| BigRedS | It's been a long time since I've played Minecraft; didn't it say it on the downloads page? | 20:37 |
| DJones | kane1309: java -jar minecraft.jar (I think) | 20:37 |
| kane1309 | thanks | 20:38 |
| AlanBell | mgdm: I am struggling to get xhprof to do anything :( | 20:45 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: :/ | 20:46 |
| AlanBell | I have installed it and referenced it in /etc/php5/conf.d/xhprof | 20:46 |
| AlanBell | php -m shows it is loaded | 20:46 |
| mgdm | OK | 20:46 |
| mgdm | did you set up the UI and add the header and footer include files? | 20:46 |
| AlanBell | I tried to | 20:46 |
| AlanBell | not entirely clear where the header and footer includes go, it says in a vhost | 20:47 |
| AlanBell | http://paste.ubuntu.com/1049899/ not sure if that is right, just sticking them at the bottom | 20:48 |
| mgdm | that's fine | 20:48 |
| AlanBell | restarted apache, there doesn't appear to be any output happening in /tmp | 20:49 |
| mgdm | Hmmm? It should go into MySQL | 20:49 |
| AlanBell | oh | 20:49 |
| AlanBell | how does it know to go there? | 20:50 |
| mgdm | when you set up the UI stuff there's meant to be a config file to tell it how to store it | 20:50 |
| mgdm | thought that was in the instructions somewhere, evidently not | 20:50 |
| AlanBell | ah, and the footer and header reference that, ok | 20:50 |
| mgdm | yeah | 20:51 |
| AlanBell | ok, so I set up an empty database, with an xhprof user and added that to the config | 20:51 |
| mgdm | ok | 20:52 |
| mgdm | there's a file somewhere with the table structure | 20:52 |
| mgdm | sorry, this is a little vague, i'm doing two things at once | 20:52 |
| AlanBell | mgdm: ok, getting there I think :) | 20:58 |
| mgdm | AlanBell: *phew* :) | 20:59 |
| AlanBell | http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/callgraphs/ comedy callgraphs | 21:37 |
| diplo | bloomin eck | 21:38 |
| diplo | Big graph | 21:38 |
| mgdm | xhprof is great for having a comedy big black line going 'this is where you screwed up' | 21:44 |
| mgdm | glad you got it working :) | 21:44 |
| mgdm | there's nothing really obviously wrong there, though | 21:44 |
| BigRedS | oooh | 21:45 |
| keir_ | my tab autocomplete in terminal emulators (xfterm, xterm) seems to have stopped working, any ideas on what might be going wrong/how i could get it back? | 22:06 |
| mcphail | keir_: have you changed shell? are you using bash? | 22:09 |
| keir_ | mcphail, am using bash, havent changed shell, recently upgraded to 12.04 which I assume is what broke things... | 22:14 |
| keir_ | when I ssh in it works fine | 22:14 |
| === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away | ||
| popey | uhm | 23:18 |
| popey | gedit some file | 23:18 |
| popey | in the terminal press ctrl+\ | 23:18 |
| popey | it core dumps here | 23:18 |
| ali1234 | what is ctrl+\ | 23:19 |
| popey | the key next to z ☺ | 23:20 |
| popey | I dunno, i hit it by accident | 23:20 |
| popey | and the editor crapped itself | 23:20 |
| ali1234 | yeah it segfaults here too | 23:20 |
| popey | its not just gedit | 23:21 |
| popey | tried gcalctool | 23:21 |
| ali1234 | so what signal is that sending? | 23:21 |
| * popey straces | 23:21 | |
| ali1234 | maybe it sends sig11? | 23:22 |
| ali1234 | ie SEGV | 23:22 |
| ali1234 | which would be handy for testing crash handlers | 23:22 |
| ali1234 | no, that does something different | 23:23 |
| ali1234 | aaah | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | well i was close | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | behaviour is intended | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control-%5C | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | "Under most UNIX based operating systems control-\ is used to terminate a running process from a command shell and have it produce a memory core dump by sending it a SIGQUIT signal." | 23:26 |
| popey | golly | 23:27 |
| dubac0 | http://www.canon-europe.com/Support/Consumer_Products/products/printers/Laser/i-SENSYS_LBP7200Cdn.aspx?DLtcmuri=tcm:13-846492&page=1&type=download would this work with ubuntu? | 23:48 |
| ali1234 | no | 23:49 |
| dubac0 | cannon i-sensys lbp7200cdn ubuntu 12.04 | 23:49 |
| dubac0 | how to get that working as a network printer? | 23:49 |
| ali1234 | oh wait it's driver version 2.4 not linux version 2.4 | 23:49 |
| dubac0 | ali1234: so it may work? | 23:51 |
| ali1234 | i don't know | 23:51 |
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