=== The_soup is now known as GridCube
[08:23] <ochosi> madnick: ping
[10:36] <ochosi> knome: i think you're right that we have to talk with GridCube about the default audio-player spec soon
[10:36] <knome> yup
[10:36] <ochosi> especially because it implies that we should take care of the other default apps as well
[10:37] <knome> heh :)
[10:37] <ochosi> "we" == xubuntu team
[10:37] <knome> i should send some email to the list
[10:37] <ochosi> or you could also say: we (you and i) should at least assign someone
[10:37] <hobgoblin> what a good team you are 
[10:37] <ochosi> lol
[10:37] <ochosi> hobgoblin: do you feel like helping us with default apps?
[10:38] <hobgoblin> I am scheduled to give gridcube a hand with the media stuff 
[10:38] <hobgoblin> but if there's anything else I can help with I'm happy to 
[10:39] <ochosi> hobgoblin: just check the list of default apps here and tell me if you're interested in any of it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
[10:40] <hobgoblin> I have looked at that already - there's really only a couple of things on there I could help with - media and arandr
[10:40] <hobgoblin> though I could I suppose look at menu managing at a stretch
[10:40] <ochosi> ideally the use-case of the app would apply to you as well – what i mean to say is: if you don't use backup-apps, it's probably too hard to compare apps for that
[10:42] <hobgoblin> ok - well is there use-cases for them all?
[10:42] <ochosi> the things i personally care about in this list: package-manager, video-player, backup-app and probably monitor management
[10:42] <ochosi> i'm not sure, i've never used a webcam app, not sure how useful it is tbh
[10:43] <hobgoblin> package management/monitors/media/menu (now and again) 
[10:43] <ochosi> but yeah, supposedly there is a use-case for that too (maybe gridcube can elaborate)
[10:43] <hobgoblin> I don't do gimp/webcam/
[10:44] <hobgoblin> but I do fiddle about trying different things - for the last 5 years lol - so I suppose I have some experience at it :)
[10:44] <ochosi> yeah, personally i think keeping gimp is more a technical decision
[10:44] <ochosi> knome: we should really prioritize the list of default apps
[10:44] <hobgoblin> yea - imho opinion gimp is one of those - if there is enough reason then why not 
[10:44] <knome> ochosi, propose?
[10:45] <hobgoblin> but - if someone can give me some guidance about what is needed - then I am happy to help
[10:45] <ochosi> knome: put those items, where we have an ok-working solution at the moment to the bottom :)
[10:45] <knome> ochosi, i mean, yeah, edit the wiki, do a proposal ;)
[10:45] <ochosi> knome: menu-manager, video-player, audio-player, image-editor etc
[10:45] <ochosi> knome: ok :)
[10:46] <ochosi> hobgoblin: sure we can – as you said, we're a great team ;)
[10:46] <hobgoblin> lol
[10:46] <ochosi> knome: i'll do that after lunch, have to go in 5
[10:46] <knome> ochosi, np
[10:46] <ochosi> but really, i think the list is misleading because it mixes apples and oranges
[10:46] <ochosi> there are use-cases where we don't haev anything currently (webcam, backups)
[10:47] <ochosi> then there are apps, where we're just considering alternatives
[10:47] <ochosi> and then there are apps that we'd love to replace if we can (e.g. USC)
[10:47] <hobgoblin> I replace USC with an empty menu place 
[10:48] <ochosi> yeah, we can all fix things for ourselves, but we should really think about what's best for everyone
[10:48] <ochosi> i mean everyone who'd potentially use xubuntu
[10:50] <hobgoblin> what's the lubuntu one like? 
[10:51] <ochosi> try it :p
[10:51] <hobgoblin> sounds like a dare to me ... 
[10:52] <knome> i've sent email to the -devel ML
[10:52] <knome> everybody please get to it
[10:55] <hobgoblin> ochosi: well it works - but there's a whole lot of white space there
[10:55] <ochosi> off for lunch, bbl
[10:55] <knome> ochosi, bon appetit
[10:55] <hobgoblin> have a good one 
[10:58] <ochosi> ty
[12:18] <ochosi> knome: i'll propose a few importances on the default apps, feel free to ping me on that
[12:20] <knome> ok, will do
[12:22] <ochosi> what do you think about sending an email to the ML asking people to help out with app-comparisons?
[12:22] <ochosi> i mean as long as we show them the old samples we have, it won't fail too miserably (hopefully
[12:22] <knome> worksforme
[12:22] <ochosi> )
[12:23] <ochosi> just an example: i never use backup-tools (apart from rysnc), so i dunno what people would wanna use
[12:23] <ochosi> otoh i think it's good to have by default
[12:23] <ochosi> dropbox integration or ubuntu-one integration or something like that
[12:23] <knome> i use rsync exclusively, too
[12:23] <ochosi> or an app that handles all of those
[12:24] <ochosi> yeah, many users don't have their own servers :)
[12:24] <ochosi> ok, the proposed importances are set
[12:24] <ochosi> whoop, row-color break
[12:24] <ochosi> i'll fix that as soon as you've commented
[12:25] <knome> wut?:P
[12:25] <knome> oh right
[12:25] <knome> just a sec
[12:27] <knome> i think "importance" is a bit wrong
[12:27] <knome> maybe it should be something that describes how much work it is useful to put in that group
[12:27] <knome> rather than describing how important it is to change (now)
[12:27] <ochosi> yeah, i totally agree
[12:28] <ochosi> but this is kinda how i prioritized them
[12:28] <knome> maybe change the importance-column to "priority"
[12:28] <ochosi> mhm, better
[12:28] <knome> i'm thinking of monitor management -> high, and maybe video player -> med
[12:29] <knome> and maybe package manager -> essential
[12:29] <ochosi> mkay
[12:29] <knome> but that depends much on when synaptic is dying
[12:30] <ochosi> yeah, we should inquire a bit
[12:30] <ochosi> btw, arandr is nice, maybe we could improve it to work better with xfce
[12:30] <knome> yup
[12:31] <knome> anyway with these changes (+ importance -> priority), i'm ok with it
[12:32] <ochosi> hey astraljava 
[12:32]  * knome gets something to eat+drink
[12:38] <astraljava> o/
[12:40] <knome> hey
[12:41] <knome> btw, i might not be able to attend the meeting tomorrow; in that case, could either of you chair it?
[12:43] <ochosi> yup, hope so
[12:43] <knome> good
[12:43] <ochosi> astraljava: how busy are you on a scale of 1-10 (10==swamped with work)
[12:43] <knome> there isn't much on the agenda, so it should be rather easy/quick
[12:44] <knome> ..unless astraljava wants to go through some QA items
[12:44] <knome> ochosi, he's -10, whenever i talk with him on daytime, he's slacking at home
[12:44]  * knome shakes head
[12:44] <ochosi> lol
[12:45] <astraljava> knome: Yeah, but you have no idea about my moonlighting...
[12:45] <knome> astraljava, if that relates to the silverlight-moonlight, i don't want to know...
[12:46] <astraljava> ochosi: Well, basically I'm probably around 8-9, but many of my tasks are slightly adjustable. :) Our definition of 'slight' may vary.
[12:46] <ochosi> astraljava: ok, thing is that we need to re-distribute mr_pouit's workitems
[12:47] <knome> meh, this yoghurt said "less sugar", but it still tastes like sugar
[12:47] <knome> :P
[12:47] <astraljava> ochosi: Tell me more, you got me interested.
[12:47] <ochosi> :)
[12:48] <knome> lol, now you want to be the technical lead too?
[12:48] <knome> hunger grows eating, i suppose..
[12:48] <ochosi> astraljava: i don't think that it's actually _so_ hard to do, but we wanted to slightly improve xfce4-display-dialog#
[12:48] <ochosi> knome: or was it the other way round?
[12:48] <knome> ochosi, ;)
[12:48] <astraljava> knome: Yes. And you know what comes after that?! O;-)
[12:48] <knome> hahah.
[12:49] <ochosi> khalif instead of the khalif? :}
[12:49] <knome> well, it's possibly up for grabs after the 13.04 cycle
[12:49] <astraljava> Nah, I'm good with these two. *smirk*
[12:49] <knome> ;)
[12:50] <knome> anyway, don't believe ochosi when he says "it's not *so* hard to do"
[12:50] <knome> ;)
[12:50] <astraljava> ochosi: Ok. Is there anything written somewhere about the problems?
[12:50] <astraljava> knome: I don't believe anything written on this channel.
[12:50] <astraljava> Myself the least.
[12:50] <knome> good policy
[12:50] <ochosi> astraljava: well there's a multi-monitor-spec, but that is the advanced plan
[12:51] <astraljava> Alright. Yeah I'm of the less-advanced variety.
[12:51] <ochosi> astraljava: for the small improvement (which i'd head for first), we'd just need more comboboxes to support xrandr-leftof and xrand-rightof and possibly a check-box for "mirror displays"
[12:51] <ochosi> that's already it
[12:52] <ochosi> people have no simple way of aligning multiple displays
[12:52] <astraljava> ochosi: Right. Well that _does not_ sound overly complicated.
[12:52] <ochosi> atm they have to set that themselves in xfconf
[12:52] <ochosi> which sucks
[12:52] <astraljava> ochosi: But is there a reason why not to use arandr for that?
[12:52] <knome> not very user-friendly at least.
[12:52] <ochosi> arandr is a bit nicer, it's in python and has a widget that represents the connected displays (whcih would be the advanced version)
[12:52] <ochosi> astraljava: tbh the UI is horrible
[12:52] <astraljava> Ok. :)
[12:53] <ochosi> astraljava: i already formulated an email to the author/maintainer in case you say "no" :)
[12:53] <ochosi> astraljava: also: i prefer to improve xfce, because that's good for all distros
[12:53] <astraljava> Well I wouldn't say no. I've already planned the mid-summer long weekend for all *buntu and related computery stuff.
[12:53] <astraljava> ...which means this upcoming weekend.
[12:54] <ochosi> kewl
[12:54] <ochosi> unfortunately i won't be around for moral support
[12:54]  * ochosi is going to a cottage with some friends
[12:54] <astraljava> That's fine, I'll just cough up a first draft.
[12:54] <ochosi> but if you're up for it, we can quickly write down a list of things to do
[12:54] <astraljava> Sure, sounds like a plan.
[12:54] <ochosi> i can also make a quick mockup just to be sure we're talking about the same things
[12:55] <astraljava> Wouldn't hurt, either.
[12:57] <knome> ochosi, can you come up with something that *does* hurt?
[12:58] <astraljava> Yeah, gnome forgot to hurt me on Thursday.
[12:58] <ochosi> :)
[12:58] <knome> did i? dang.
[12:58] <knome> :)
[13:09] <ochosi> astraljava: here you go, this is what i had in mind: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors#Improve_Xfce.27s_dialog
[13:10] <ochosi> astraljava: is it understandable/clear enough?
[13:10] <astraljava> OUCH! That hurts!
[13:11] <ochosi> what does? me pinging you?
[13:11] <astraljava> I won't tell you.
[13:12] <ochosi> ok, well i'm satisfied as long as you tell me bout the display dialog :)
[13:12] <knome> astraljava, stop trying to use those lightbulbs as earplugs.
[13:12] <astraljava> ochosi: Ok, yeah. That looks understandable even to me.
[13:13] <astraljava> knome: But I've heard about this light treatment through your ears...
[13:13] <ochosi> astraljava: right. so it's one checkbox and one combobox, no more no less
[13:13] <knome> yeah, at least try the energy-saving lights.
[13:14] <astraljava> ochosi: Cool. I'll chat with the guys on #xfce-dev if I run across any problems. Otherwise I'll try to produce this change over the weekend.
[13:16] <ochosi> astraljava: great!
[13:16] <ochosi> btw, the two guys mainly responsible for the display-dialog are mr_pouit and jeromeg
[13:16] <ochosi> both of those french fries are currently a bit "off the grid"
[13:17] <ochosi> so don't expect immediate support
[13:17] <astraljava> Buahaha!
[13:17] <knome> hmm, french fries would be nice.
[13:17] <ochosi> another thing that would be cool would be a "identify monitors" button
[13:17] <ochosi> but that's for later :)
[13:18] <ochosi> astraljava: btw, if you're done with the simple improvement and are kinda bored, you can try and steal ristretto's wallpaper-widget for the display-dialog ;)
[13:20] <astraljava> Heheh. :) Ok, I'll see if such a thing occurs.
[13:20] <ochosi> yeah, no problem though, the most important thing would be that we have this small yet so important improvement for 12.10
[13:23] <astraljava> Sure. But you're free to tell me what that is, and does. :)
[13:24] <ochosi> you mean the identify-monitors?
[13:25] <astraljava> No, the wallpaper-widget.
[13:25] <ochosi> ah :)
[13:25] <ochosi> ok
[13:25] <ochosi> it's this. http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06192012-032531pm.php
[13:25] <ochosi> it knows about the alignment and resolution of the screens
[13:25] <ochosi> and it draws the monitors in cairo
[13:26] <ochosi> so it could be used to visually reflect the changes to position made in the display-dialog
[13:26] <astraljava> Oh ok. Sounds nice.
[13:27] <ochosi> yeah, that would be the advanced version ;)
[13:27] <ochosi> mainly because of stuff like D'N'D
[13:44] <hobgoblin> that was a lot of reading ... 
[13:53] <knome> if you refer to the strategy document, imagine how much writing it was :)
[14:07] <hobgoblin> knome: I refer to both that and the backlog :)
[14:07] <hobgoblin> oh and the monitor thingy above :)
[14:07] <knome> heh:)
[17:07]  * astraljava lols again at the kernel meeting
[17:07] <ochosi> Unit193: mind to check up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps ?
[17:07] <ochosi> Unit193: would be nice if you could pack them into a table and add the category to each item
[17:07] <astraljava> Clocked in  at less than 6.5 minutes, with 20 seconds at the end just idle time, waiting for unexpected items.
[17:07] <astraljava> Oops, sorry, wrong channel.
[17:07] <ochosi> Unit193: maybe we could also get two columns, one human-readable, one for the name of the desktop-file
[17:08]  * Unit193 wanders around looking for a masochist
[17:09] <hobgoblin> ha ha ha
[17:10] <Unit193> Is there a list of catagories?
[17:10] <Unit193> hobgoblin: Are you one? :D
[17:11] <hobgoblin> I guess you could if you stretched it call me a category. 
[17:11] <Unit193> +masochist
[17:11] <hobgoblin> fraid not 
[17:11] <astraljava> categorically masochist
[17:12] <hobgoblin> thanks astraljava 
[17:12] <hobgoblin> bad timing
[17:16] <ochosi> k, g2g
[17:19] <Unit193> I really don't know the names of all these, or have them installed (others added?)
[17:29] <Unit193> ochosi: As requested, categories and table, but only a start.
[17:33] <hobgoblin> Unit193: qtconfig-qt4
[17:33] <Unit193> Thank you!
[17:33] <hobgoblin> :)
[17:33] <Unit193> (Is that the correct name?)
[17:34] <hobgoblin> that's what it calls for in the menu
[17:34] <hobgoblin> compizconfig-settings-manager as well byt the way :p
[17:35] <Unit193> Stinking knome and his getting of small changes...  Thanks, never used that one.
[17:35] <hobgoblin> lol
[17:36] <Unit193> Name right?  And do you happen to know bluetooth? :D
[17:37] <hobgoblin> the thing to install is qt4-qtconfig - but qtconfig-qt4 is what's in /usr/bin
[17:38] <hobgoblin> aboslutely no idea at all - uninstalling bluetooth is in the first things I do 
[17:39] <Unit193> There are many that go, if I were to install xubu-desktop, I'd gain many packages and 73.1M (not that bad.)
[17:39] <hobgoblin> indeed
[17:45] <Unit193> Right, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~blueman/blueman/trunk/view/head:/data/blueman-manager.desktop.in that's my guess.
[17:46] <hobgoblin> yea
[17:46] <hobgoblin> pretty sure that's it
[17:49] <Unit193> Danke, got it maybe all worked out.  Like the categories?
[17:49] <hobgoblin> Unit193: do you want proper feedback on having these things in the settings manager from a community member 
[17:49] <hobgoblin> even if it is a hobgoblin 
[17:50] <Unit193> Sure, why not?
[17:50] <Unit193> Though, I've been told the review of applications will be done in a meeting.
[17:51] <hobgoblin> ok - then I'll do it then I'm about :)
[17:51] <hobgoblin> if
[17:52] <Unit193> Categories is just something I randomly picked, or looked at Categories= section.
[17:52] <Unit193> Bluetooth may be a hardware thing, but seems more $whateveriputatthetime.
[17:53] <hobgoblin> lol
[18:12] <knome> i edited the page a bit.
[18:12] <knome> (layout only, should be a bit more readable now)
[18:12] <Unit193> Yeah, that's why I was looking for a masochist.
[18:13] <knome> :P
[18:13] <Unit193> ochosi wanted a table, so that's what I did.
[18:13] <knome> yeah.
[18:13] <knome> probably could've been readable with alternate row colors
[18:13] <knome> (we so have to get that to the ubuntu wiki as default :()
[18:14] <Unit193> Note, I don't really care, either way works for me™
[18:14] <knome> i don't care either as long as it is readable :)
[18:14] <hobgoblin> I can;t read it 
[18:14] <hobgoblin> :p
[18:15] <Unit193> Put on your old man glasses. ;)
[18:16] <hobgoblin> sure you don't mean "Put on your glasses, old man" :p
[18:17]  * hobgoblin is going to read knome's tome again in the morning and right a long reply 
[18:17] <astraljava> TL;DR
[18:17] <hobgoblin> or rather write one 
[18:18] <hobgoblin> astraljava: too late ... I did :)
[18:18] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I hope you noticed I did 5 dailies yesterday/today 
[18:18] <astraljava> You've got lots to learn
[18:18] <astraljava> No I didn't. 
[18:18] <hobgoblin> I'll not do that again then 
[18:18]  * astraljava didn't pay any attention
[18:18] <hobgoblin> lol
[18:19] <astraljava> I was too busy fighting with this stupid machine
[18:19] <hobgoblin> neither did hobgoblin 
[18:19] <astraljava> But thanks, anyway!
[18:19] <hobgoblin> ha I spent 2 hours fighting my isp and e-mail today :(
[18:19] <astraljava> This is very good data for the release meeting on Friday.
[18:19] <astraljava> We're gonna have to talk about it tomorrow at the meeting.
[18:19] <hobgoblin> I'll do more tomorrow 
[18:20] <astraljava> Are we gonna do Alpha-2 or not.
[18:20] <hobgoblin> but I won't be doing any autoresize ones - unless vbox is ok 
[18:20] <Unit193> So the docs are re-written, and I have to read them before doing tests?
[18:21] <hobgoblin> Unit193: the short test is 
[18:21] <hobgoblin> I'venot seen new long one 
[18:25] <astraljava> The long one is still under construction.
[18:26] <astraljava> I'll try to get that revised for the meeting on Sunday.
[18:29] <hobgoblin> astraljava: if you want a guinea pig to run through it let me know 
[18:36] <astraljava> Thanks! I'll keep in mind.
[18:40] <knome> hobgoblin, one wish; please separate different issues to separate paragraphs, even they were really tiny things. thanks! :)
[18:41]  * knome is referring to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008255.html
[18:45] <hobgoblin> I will - I tried to read that reply as well 
[18:45] <knome> i just replied to that
[21:06] <ochosi> Unit193: well done, thanks!
[21:07] <Unit193> knome helped, as did hobgob.
[21:07] <knome> i messed it up.
[21:07] <knome> :)
[21:07] <Unit193> I mess everything up, it's part of the plan.
[21:11] <ochosi> have you tried whether additional categories are added automagically?
[21:12] <Unit193> Xfce 4.8
[21:12] <ochosi> awwh
[21:13] <ochosi> anyone else? knome?
[21:13] <knome> 4.8 too
[21:13] <Unit193> Other has .10.
[21:14] <ochosi> ok, i can give it a try tomorrow hopefully, but i'm rather busy this week
[21:16] <knome> ochosi, btw, i will be most probably away at the time of the meeting, so you'll actually get to chair the meeting ;)
[21:18] <ochosi> mkay
[21:18] <ochosi> g2g, bbl
[21:18] <knome> see you
[21:30] <GridCube> knome, tomorrow i have most of the day free
[21:30] <GridCube> flag day :D
[21:30] <knome> GridCube, congrats :)
[21:31] <GridCube> :P i say if you and ochosi want we could talk tomorrow
[21:33] <knome> mmh. i'm not sure if i have time, definitely not after 13UTC.
[21:54] <astraljava> knome: If we're starting to become picky about posting styles, could we please pay a little attention to trimming the posts as well? Huh? *smirk*
[21:54] <knome> huh? :P
[21:54] <knome> are you saying i'm too verbose?
[21:54] <knome> or did i do something weird?
[21:55] <astraljava> Trimming the quotes, I should have said. :)
[21:55] <knome> right
[21:55] <knome> i didn't really trim any of the text
[21:55] <knome> if you are referring to...
[21:56] <astraljava> I rest my case.
[21:56] <knome> >From my point of view, the best way to proceed is to give the Xubuntu
[21:56] <knome> ... i didn't see that in TB
[21:56] <knome> it looks okay for me :|
[21:57] <astraljava> No I'm not referring to that particular email (which I haven't even read, mind you). But the history.
[21:57] <knome> if i did something weird, just tell me
[21:57] <knome> i'm trying to make sensible trims, though sometimes it goes all nuts.
[21:58] <astraljava> Nah, no big deal. Just that oftentimes, posts to the lists have full originals, and a line added either to the end, or somewhere in the middle.
[21:58] <knome> mmh.
[21:58] <knome> -devel isn't that much traffic that i think it hurts much. but what do i know?
[21:59] <astraljava> xubuntu-devel alone might not be, but when you're on dozens of such...
[21:59] <knome> heh.
[21:59] <knome> well, i'm not
[21:59]  * astraljava lost track of mailing lists subscribed back in '06...
[22:00] <knome> i just unsubscribed from some not a long time ago.
[22:00] <astraljava> I should have thought of that. *grin*
[22:02] <astraljava> Currently, I'd estimate the number of incoming emails per day around 600 or so. Three thirds of them I can dismiss just by reading the subject line. But that still leaves a few to skim through.
[22:02] <knome> heh
[22:02] <knome> i had something like 50 coming a day, now i unsubscribed and reviewed the filter, and i have like 5 a day
[22:02] <knome> ...
[22:03] <astraljava> Non-internet days become horror quickly. :D
[22:03] <knome> heh, i see