[00:29] <jrwren> derekv: what exactly is the java software? from where did it come?
[00:54] <derekv> ok well since my employer has a working relationship with this company probably been a little unprofessional complaining that way
[01:40] <rick_h_> ooh, https://twitter.com/#!/pyohio
[01:40] <rick_h_> added a 4th track and still had to turn away talks. 2yrs ago they only turned down one talk
[01:40] <rick_h_> <3 growing communities
[02:15] <n0p> snap-l: greg-g: rick_h_: thanks for the words of encouragement wrt the half marathon, was an awesome feeling to complete it
[02:21] <rick_h_> n0p: dude! awesome stuff
[02:52] <jrwren> when did you start running?
[02:52] <jrwren> and congrats. it is a great achievement
[03:09] <snap-l> https://github.com/ofmlabs/flac.js
[03:30] <snap-l> God, Cracked.com videos and Chrome induce seizures
[03:30] <snap-l> Stupid video wanted to resize the window, but Chrome resized it right back
[03:30] <snap-l> and the video resized, and Chrome resized
[11:01] <rick_h_> http://abstrusegoose.com/strips/sometimes_im_just_curious_what_its_like_on_the_other_side.png
[11:27] <rick_h_> I think my wife is hiding her laptop from me, last time I got ahold of it she got 12.04 and unity
[11:37] <brousch> rick_h_: Hey Mr. Tea Man, do you have any experieence with Teavana? http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2012/06/teavana_will_open_second_store.html
[11:37] <rick_h_> brousch: no, I've been happy with adagio teas and haven't bought anything from them yet
[11:38] <rick_h_> but heard some ok things from people that have bought there
[11:38] <brousch> I might wander over there at lunch
[11:38] <rick_h_> cool
[11:38] <brousch> I just started drinking fancy teas when the coffee shop I was getting them at went out of business
[11:40] <rick_h_> doh
[11:45] <snap-l> JoDee and I have been to Teavana
[11:45] <snap-l> nice thing is they have lots of samples
[11:45] <snap-l> bad thing is most of them aren't really teas
[11:45] <snap-l> just a bunch of flowers and other shit getting steeped. :)
[11:46] <snap-l> Go with a skeptical mind
[11:46] <brousch> I don't have a strict defnition of tea
[11:46] <brousch> Any sort of plant steeped in water
[11:46] <snap-l> neither do they
[11:46] <brousch> So we may get along well
[11:48] <rick_h_> hah
[12:03] <brousch> Hm, I didn't hear from PyOhio. Maybe I got rejected
[12:03] <rick_h_> so I didn't hear either, but when I logged in it said accepted
[12:03] <brousch> Ah, so maybe the automated announcements broke
[12:04] <brousch> You cannot get rejected. You gave the best talk last year
[12:04] <rick_h_> well, they say they've got a thing for doing new speaker/etc
[12:04] <rick_h_> so I've talked a few years in a row
[12:04] <rick_h_> plus you guys are biased and trying to give me a big head :P
[12:05] <rick_h_> ok, so I just accidentally did a dd if= of=/dev/sdb where sdb is my second hard drive I'm not used to having
[12:05]  * rick_h_ hopes I didn't just lose all my data
[12:05] <snap-l> rick_h_: ruh roh
[12:06] <rick_h_> so far so good...I think i killed it while it was reading up the .iso maybe
[12:06] <brousch> yikes!
[12:06] <brousch> rick_h_: Are you looking at http://pyohio.org/speaker/ while logged in?
[12:07] <brousch> Mine says "submitted"
[12:07] <rick_h_> yea, my status says Accepted
[12:07] <rick_h_> yours is at submitted?
[12:07] <brousch> right
[12:07] <rick_h_> which talk did you end up submitting?
[12:07] <brousch> Python on Android
[12:08] <rick_h_> well, like I said no email. Maybe they didn't finish last night
[12:08] <rick_h_> and only got some out/etc
[12:08] <rick_h_> nullspace: hey, you hitting up CHC tonight?
[12:08] <nullspace> yep
[12:08] <brousch> Yeah, I wouldn't be crushed if I was rejected. Makes for a lot less pressure at the conference
[12:08] <rick_h_> nullspace: ok, awesome. I'll be a little late (dinner with inlaws) but will be there
[12:09] <rick_h_> so packing up the gear
[12:15] <nullspace> cool
[12:56] <rick_h_> die IE die...
[12:57] <brousch> I find it amusing that even though you work for a Linux vendor, you still have to deal with IE
[12:57] <brousch> It's like there's no escape, no matter how far away from Windows you go
[12:58] <rick_h_> hah, well ideally these windows users come over right? :)
[12:59] <brousch> Any windows user savvy enough to look at Linux will alreayd be using Chrome or FF
[13:21] <jrwren> teavana is stupid mall store crap.
[13:21] <jrwren> IMO :)
[13:22] <rick_h_> solves that
[13:26] <brousch> :P
[13:44] <nullspace> jrwren: their teas are good but very expensive
[13:47] <nullspace> rick_h_: they recently sent out a secrity patch for IE6
[13:48] <nullspace> mixed messages, I thought that it was no longer supported ...
[13:53] <rick_h_> nullspace: heh, thankfully we've put that behind us now. Using IE9 and switching modes to IE8/IE7 in there.
[13:53] <rick_h_> still sucks, dev tools still suck, but better than IE6 thank goodness
[13:57] <rick_h_> lol, hard drive wipe, 5 passes "ETA 1h 1h"
[13:57] <rick_h_> oh...
[14:23] <nullspace> I thought 1 pass was considered enough
[14:24] <brousch> Disassemble, keep magnets, beat up platters with sledge hammer
[14:24] <nullspace> I suspect he is talking about his SSD drive
[14:24] <jrwren> after the passses, becuase NSA could bend them back and get data off
[14:24] <rick_h_> meh, it gave me the option of 1-9 passes, so I hit up 5 as a reasonable middle ground
[14:24] <jrwren> and my pictures of my kids are MINE!
[14:25] <rick_h_> saved me from needing to google the issue :P
[14:25] <brousch> KILL IT WITH FIRE
[14:29] <nullspace> jrwren: I thought they disproved the theroy that with an electron microscope you could pull data off
[14:30] <jrwren> who is "they"
[14:31] <brousch> If you have to ask, I'm not going to tell you
[14:53] <rick_h_> <3 vim history articles: http://goo.gl/aaI8w
[14:55] <snap-l> rick_h_: Ah, so in order to get you to use VIM effectively, I need to get you an ADM3A terminal. Got it.
[14:56]  * snap-l has an ADM terminal in the basement
[14:57] <rick_h_> lol, but of course you do :)
[14:59] <snap-l> Sadly it's not the ADM3A
[15:00] <rick_h_> oh wtf...disk check in my windows VM one day in
[15:01] <brousch> Did you shut it down improperly?
[15:02] <rick_h_> I hit start->shut down
[15:02] <MaskedDriver> that's not how you shut down windows! ;)
[15:02] <jrwren> rick_h_: awesome link
[15:03] <rick_h_> jrwren: love stuff like that, show just how much stuff has changed over the years you don't even think about
[15:03] <jrwren> yup
[15:04] <rick_h_> hmmm, "deleting orphan file record segment XXXXX" at a rate of about 10/s
[15:04]  * rick_h_ wonders if I'll be reinstalling my vm shortly
[15:04] <brousch> ut oh
[15:05] <rick_h_> oh, you know what...I bet I found out what my bad dd this morning did to me
[15:05] <brousch> heh, there ya go
[15:06] <snap-l> Oh lovely
[15:07] <rick_h_> ok, so going to just give up and reinstall
[15:08] <jrwren> oops.
[15:08] <jrwren> restore from backup?
[15:08] <rick_h_> naw, it's just a VM and only set it up yesterday
[15:08] <rick_h_> and I'm not backing up that drive
[15:09] <rick_h_> it consists of my Downloads folder, pypi mirror, and local copy of backups I ahve on the backup server, but local in case I need something while away
[15:17] <greg-g> g'morning
[15:17] <greg-g> my mouse is acting weird. I plug it in, it works for a while, until I stop moving it, then the red lazer goes out and it won't come back alive until I replug it back in
[15:18] <MaskedDriver> greg-g: what kind of mouse?
[15:18] <greg-g> usb, optical, Kensington
[15:19] <brousch> try a different usb port
[15:19] <greg-g> done that
[15:20] <MaskedDriver> greg-g: get a new mouse
[15:22] <greg-g> well, sure, if I had one
[15:22] <MaskedDriver> you don't have 40 mice lying around? for shame :(
[15:22] <greg-g> I have a couple laptops and keyboards, but not multiple mice :/
[15:23] <brousch> Mice are deprecated. Use a nipple or touchpad
[15:23] <MaskedDriver> I have more mice than keyboards
[15:23] <MaskedDriver> lol... yeah, I think you'll find millions who disagree with you on that brousch. I'd rather get stabbed than use a nipple or touchpad
[15:25] <brousch> They are all old people who will retire soon
[15:26] <MaskedDriver> I'm 26
[15:26] <MaskedDriver> ...
[15:26] <MaskedDriver> if that were the case, Razer wouldn't keep making a new Naga every year
[15:28] <brousch> Apple says touch is the future. Jobs has spoken.
[15:30] <MaskedDriver> Jobs died. That proves that he is neither omnipotent nor immortal. There is fallacy in everything he prophesied.
[15:31] <MaskedDriver> he was meerly man who claimed that Android wouldn't hurt Apple in any way
[15:31] <MaskedDriver> merely*
[15:32] <MaskedDriver> wb snap-l
[15:33] <snap-l> thanks.
[15:33] <rick_h_> heh, more keyboards than mice here for the record
[15:33] <greg-g> rick_h_: yeah, I mean, really, I can get by without the use of a mouse for mosto f my work :)
[15:34] <MaskedDriver> I upgrade my mice like a stupid person cause I can never find one I love, so I have a bunch of oldies lying around. My keyboards usually last me 4-5 years and by the time I'm done with them and upgrade, they're completely broken
[15:35] <MaskedDriver> I'm using my DasKeyboard until the end of time, I think. I'm in love with that thing in an unnatural way
[15:35] <jrwren> yet apple sells magic mouse.
[15:35] <jrwren> mouse is nice
[15:36] <MaskedDriver> jrwren: I used one of those at my old job. It was pretty slick
[15:36] <snap-l> I don't like the magic mouse.
[15:36] <MaskedDriver> I bought an app that improved it's multi-touch functionality
[15:36] <jrwren> i didn't think i would like the magic mouse. i thought it would hate it... turns out I love it.
[15:36] <jrwren> i just use magicprefs, its free.
[15:37] <MaskedDriver> yeah, that wasn't available when I got mine
[15:37] <snap-l> jrwren: Have you tried it on a Linux machine? :)
[15:37] <MaskedDriver> I got mine within the first week of it launching
[15:37] <rick_h_> greg-g: yea, sorry man. Sounds like someone is dropping power, either the mouse or the usb port
[15:37] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: or windows for that matter ;)
[15:37] <rick_h_> greg-g: new mouse == answer. I tend to keep a travel mouse around as a spare thing to hop around machines for these days
[15:37] <snap-l> i use and love the logitech mice.
[15:38] <snap-l> They do the trick, and get out of my way
[15:38] <rick_h_> trackball!
[15:38] <snap-l> rick_h_: freak
[15:38] <rick_h_> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/trackballs/wireless-trackball-m570 ftw
[15:38] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: I used logitech for a long time, then I switched to the Cyborg RAT7 and it ended up doing what greg-g's is (which is why I asked what kind it is), and now I'm using a Razer Naga
[15:38] <brousch> I want a USB nipple
[15:39] <MaskedDriver> brousch: I think adam and eve have something like that ;)
[15:39] <snap-l> Razer is fine if you like cords
[15:39] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: I'm a gamer, using wireless technology is bad news bears
[15:40] <MaskedDriver> these "wireless gaming mice" make me chuckle
[15:40] <snap-l> I want my mouse to be wireless at least.
[15:40] <jrwren> why would i use a mouse on a linux machine?
[15:40] <brousch> MaskedDriver: " Adam & Eve Home Text Search: usb nipple (0 Items)
[15:40] <brousch> We're sorry. The term "usb nipple" has returned 0 results."
[15:40] <jrwren> linux machines don't have a gui, unless it is android or chromeos :)
[15:40] <snap-l> I'll settle. I've nver been terribly good at fragging people online anyway.
[15:40] <rick_h_> jrwren: because you can't highlight and copy text in all apps?
[15:40] <MaskedDriver> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/mice-keyboard-combos/g13-advanced-gameboard
[15:40] <snap-l> jrwren: NIce troll
[15:41] <MaskedDriver> this is better than a mouse and keyboard
[15:41] <MaskedDriver> I use that and a DasKeyboard and a Naga
[15:41] <rick_h_> you're kidding me...
[15:41] <MaskedDriver> keyboard is just for typing in chat, the naga and G13 take care of everything else
[15:41] <jrwren> gamers!
[15:42] <rick_h_> I thought they all died off, still around?
[15:42] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: And you have hit a limit I will never achieve with gaming peripherals for the PC
[15:42] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: :) I'll take that as a compliment
[15:42] <snap-l> Take it for what it is. ;)
[15:43] <MaskedDriver> lol
[15:43] <MaskedDriver> rick_h_: until MMOs die off completely, there will always be millions of PC gamers around
[15:43] <MaskedDriver> and playing a FPS on a console is a joke
[15:44] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: Depends on the FPS, but I agree for the most part
[15:44] <rick_h_> I thought all the gamers grew up and the new kids only play games on their iphones :P
[15:44] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: only reason I got that is because my hands are tiny and I have a hard time reaching all of the numbers, so I ended up with the bad habit of clicking on skills
[15:44] <snap-l> Although they have keyboards for consoles.
[15:44] <MaskedDriver> this broke me of that habit and I'm far more efficient
[15:45] <snap-l> The only thing the consoles don't let you do is cheat like a mofo.
[15:45] <snap-l> ;)
[15:45] <MaskedDriver> lol
[15:45] <snap-l> and make 15 key macros
[15:45] <MaskedDriver> yeah, bots ruin games pretty quickly
[15:45] <MaskedDriver> macros are not cheating
[15:45] <snap-l> yes they are
[15:45] <MaskedDriver> macros are smart gaming
[15:45] <snap-l> Not in a FPS
[15:45] <MaskedDriver> eh yeah
[15:46]  * MaskedDriver is an MMO guy, mostly
[15:46] <snap-l> if you're dancing around me like you don't have gravity, you're cheating
[15:46] <rick_h_> this is the guy with the giant arm stabalizer saying "it's smart bowling" :P
[15:46] <snap-l> I haven't played a MMO for more than a day.
[15:46] <MaskedDriver> a day, eh?
[15:46] <MaskedDriver> I've played an MMO 2 days straight before
[15:46] <snap-l> MaskedDriver: Yeah, I'm not into Warcraft
[15:46] <MaskedDriver> me neither
[15:46] <MaskedDriver> never played it
[15:47] <snap-l> I have better things to do with my time than kill bunnies for XP
[15:47] <greg-g> MaskedDriver: rick_h_ etc, yeah, I think I'm going to order another full sized mouse and a travel one
[15:47] <MaskedDriver> greg-g: might I suggest the Razer Naga? ;)
[15:47] <rick_h_> greg-g: for what it's work, I picked up on eof those MS arc mice and actually don't mind it
[15:47] <rick_h_> folds up small enough to be travel, but folds out big eoungh to not feel like you're mousing with a marshmallow
[15:48] <greg-g> cool, thanks for the tips
[15:48]  * greg-g goes to amazon in a second
[15:49] <greg-g> dangit, amazon is definitely a site that requires a mouse to use!
[15:49] <rick_h_> lol, very true!
[15:49] <MaskedDriver> I'm a NewEgg guy
[15:49] <rick_h_> undock the laptop man, use the point!
[15:49] <greg-g> but but but, my kinesis!
[15:50] <rick_h_> I know...I know...but if it's blocking amazon ordering you must do whatever it takes!
[15:50] <snap-l> greg-g: fwiw, the smaller logitech mice work
[15:50] <MaskedDriver> ok, time for lunch
[15:50] <snap-l> I have big hands, but they work OK for me
[15:50] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: +1 I have a few of those as well, they get the job done and are easy to transport
[15:51] <rick_h_> my boy is learning, yesterday the UPS guy showed up and the boy goes "It's the ohps man! He's got a big truck! Did yuo get a new lawn mower daddy?"
[15:51] <rick_h_> I'm going to be in trouble soon as he gets to the point of ratting me out
[15:51] <snap-l> greg-g: http://ur1.ca/9jcg2
[15:51] <brousch> rick_h_: Hah, good luck with that
[15:52] <rick_h_> see marshmallow comment ^ snap-l
[15:52] <snap-l> rick_h_: It's only a question of when ;)
[15:52] <rick_h_> gave that one to the wife, she love it though
[15:52] <rick_h_> snap-l brousch yea, damn kids make you change your life around in more ways than expected
[15:53] <snap-l> rick_h_: The M305 isn't a marshmallow. :)
[15:53] <snap-l> But I do like the larger mice.
[15:53] <rick_h_> http://goo.gl/Ij0hG
[15:54] <rick_h_> crap, it doesn't come in blue swirl!
[15:54] <jrwren> RTS is same... PC is the best RTS platform.
[15:54] <jrwren> i made fun of gamers, but I love me some Starcraft2
[15:54] <rick_h_> or 'pink balance'
[15:54] <snap-l> jrwren: Depends on the RTS, but there's definitely more breadth on the PC
[15:54] <jrwren> there is non PC rts?
[15:54] <snap-l> Civ on the Nintendo DS is more of a toy than on the PC
[15:55] <rick_h_> ok, is it just me or is the pinboard guy starting to sound snooty/snotty on twitter?
[15:55] <snap-l> jrwren: Usually more turn-based. Can't think of anything offhand.
[15:56] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, he's a bit of a prick on twitter.
[15:57] <rick_h_> yea, kind of going from a little bit of a personal hero to the trash dump
[15:58] <snap-l> unsubbed
[15:59] <jrwren> who this?
[15:59] <rick_h_> the pinboard guy
[16:00] <rick_h_> https://twitter.com/#!/Pinboard
[16:00] <widox> hm, there must be a new version of that arc mouse, rick_h_, greg-g http://is.gd/FMPCCN
[16:00] <snap-l> Just sent him a "please close my account" note
[16:00] <rick_h_> widox: yea, but it's all touchy feely, I've not tried it...but not sure I want to
[16:01] <brousch> I don't see the prickishness
[16:04] <snap-l> keep reading
[16:05] <brousch> i'm tired of reading. i went like 20h
[16:05] <rick_h_> widox: ok, watched the video and now I'm curious. It does a haptic feedback on the scrolling, so maybe it would be intersting to try
[16:06] <snap-l> on the plus side, the account closing was pleasent enough
[16:06] <widox> rick_h_: I'd try it out
[16:07] <rick_h_> widox: yea, just ordered
[16:07] <rick_h_> curse you widox !!! :P
[16:08] <widox> rick_h_: hahaha
[16:08] <widox> I'll be looking forward to CHC next week then :D
[16:10] <jrwren> you got a touchmouse?
[16:11] <rick_h_> that arch touch
[16:11] <rick_h_> arc that is
[16:12] <jrwren> i'm surprised you didn't go "pro"
[16:12] <jrwren> http://www.amazon.com/dp/dp/B004HYGU18
[16:12] <jrwren> you like that one because it goes flat?
[16:12] <rick_h_> yea, it's nice/portable/space effecient
[16:12] <rick_h_> ouch, 3 stars
[16:12] <rick_h_> not a bit hit there
[16:13] <greg-g> ok, the mouse I stole from a roommate is having the same issue
[16:13] <greg-g> :/
[16:13] <rick_h_> ruh roh...
[16:13] <greg-g> time for a windows fix it attempt?
[16:13] <rick_h_> so the laser goes out?
[16:13] <greg-g> yeah
[16:13] <rick_h_> I mean, that's power and pure hardware I'd think
[16:13] <rick_h_> on any usb port?
[16:14] <rick_h_> have another usb device to try? camera, etc?
[16:14] <greg-g> on port 1 (via a 4 port hub) on port 2, now trying port 3
[16:14] <rick_h_> oh, skip the hub and see
[16:14] <greg-g> yep
[16:14] <greg-g> yeah, port 2 and 3 were direct to laptop tries
[16:14] <rick_h_> ok, was thinking the laptop was going bad, a hub is whatever
[16:15] <greg-g> but, my keyboard is working fine via that hub
[16:15] <rick_h_> on that same port the keyboard is using?
[16:15]  * greg-g is confused
[16:15] <rick_h_> swap keyboard/mouse and see which fails
[16:16]  * greg-g is typuing typing typing
[16:16] <greg-g> and no mouse
[16:16] <rick_h_> oh, and happens with two diff mice?
[16:16] <rick_h_> that's a wtf
[16:16] <greg-g> I might have to do a windows tech support attempt
[16:16] <greg-g> yep, two diff mice
[16:16] <rick_h_> ok, I'm confused...carry on
[16:16] <greg-g> :)
[16:19] <jrwren> power draw?
[16:19] <jrwren> hard to believe the mouse would draw too much for a USB hub.
[16:19] <greg-g> oh no way
[16:20] <greg-g> the problem is gone after i plug in my laptop's power cord
[16:20] <rick_h_> greg-g: oooooh
[16:20] <jrwren> power!
[16:20] <greg-g> wtf!
[16:20] <rick_h_> that explains a lot then, yea many laptops don't output power on all ports when on battery
[16:20] <rick_h_> keyboard < mouse
[16:20] <greg-g> yeah
[16:21] <greg-g> and the powered port was probably the one that was going to the hub, so it wasn't able to get enough
[16:21] <greg-g> well then, at least I can get work done today at a reasonable speed :)
[16:21] <jrwren> macbooks don't do this :)
[16:21] <greg-g> (and without having to restart my laptop ;) )
[16:21] <greg-g> jrwren: :P
[16:26] <rick_h_> anyone remember how to get the titlebar/edit controls back in virtualbox instance?
[16:26] <rick_h_> I seemed to have clicked stretch vs adjust and now I can't get the control back to change it
[16:29] <greg-g> right control?
[16:30] <rick_h_> yea, that escapes the mouse pointer, but I need to reset teh UI itself
[16:34] <rick_h_> ah, host-c fixes the scale mode
[16:34] <rick_h_> strech that is, yay askubuntu
[16:44] <greg-g> my Google activity report for my work account for the previous week: 358 mails sent (-2%) To 113 contacts
[17:03] <rick_h_> yay for negative?
[17:04] <greg-g> yeah
[17:04] <greg-g> still too much
[17:04] <rick_h_> "it's a process" :P
[17:05] <greg-g> but probably won't go down over the next few months, I'm taking up some tech team leadership responsibilities, so interfacing with the other managers of CC
[17:05]  * krondor reads scrollback
[17:05] <krondor> logitech can die, nothing for left handers :(  razer ftw and mice rule (lachesis for me, but taipan looks nice)
[17:05] <krondor> my copperhead died this year
[17:06] <rick_h_> hah, was watching dilbert on netflix and the whole lefty-righty thing made me laugh
[17:07] <krondor> it's hard to go back to a non-gaming mouse after using one.  They're so fluid truly.
[17:08] <jrwren> agreed.
[17:08] <jrwren> i like G500
[17:10] <snap-l> krondor: Um, some of their mice can work well left-handed
[17:10] <snap-l> usually it's the cheaper mice, though
[17:12] <krondor> snap-l: yeah none of the G series for sure, and if you're going to make me pick a cheaper kind of friendly one versus a competitor...
[17:13] <krondor> I tried the magic mouse briefly once, but I couldn't break the habit of lifting my right finger for left clicks.. I think that was a changeable setting maybe.  Meh
[17:14] <snap-l> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/mice/cube <- Finally, the mouse that doesn't care what hand you use.
[17:16] <snap-l> I want to find the person who mapped CTRL-W to both Vim window commands and "delete previous word" and beat them
[17:20] <rick_h_> yea, alias those away
[17:20] <rick_h_> never hit ctrl-w in vim
[17:20] <rick_h_> lol, that cube is funny
[17:32] <greg-g> thought you all might like this, especially jrwren http://evanfarrer.blogspot.ca/2012/06/unit-testing-isnt-enough-you-need.html
[17:36] <Milyardo> I don't get it, what does typing have to do with Unit Tests
[17:37] <greg-g> did you read it?
[17:37] <greg-g> :)
[17:38] <greg-g> "For me research I wanted to test the frequently cited claim by proponents of dynamically typed programming languages that static typing was not needed for detecting bugs in programs. The core of this claim is as follows:"
[17:39] <Milyardo> Yeah I've read it, ignoring the fact thats a claim I've never heard before, the two subjects just are related
[17:39] <Milyardo> *aren't
[17:40] <greg-g> well, I thought it was simple: see if unit tests were able to catch all the bugs that static typing did. The answer is no.
[17:40] <Milyardo> An analogous claim would be like saying in Physics, you don't have to check your answers because you performed dimensional analysis on the problem
[17:40] <greg-g> its a master's thesis, doesn't need real world applicability right away ;)
[17:40] <Milyardo> Thats because thats not what typing is for
[17:41] <greg-g> fair
[17:41] <greg-g> maybe he just wanted to produce another data point why Haskell > * :)
[17:43] <rick_h_> yea, see the thing here is that it only takes into account a very select use/issue with programming and languages
[17:43] <rick_h_> everything's a trade off and this doesn't take into account level of experience of dev, dev time, accessability for other devs to contribute to OSS, code readability, etc
[17:43] <rick_h_> but yea, nothing surprising in here
[17:44] <rick_h_> meh, write code, be happy, that's what I say
[17:44]  * greg-g nods
[17:47]  * brousch peers at rick_h_
[17:50] <rick_h_> sorry, just don't need my code to pass a formal proof for correctness, but if you do, go for it
[17:50] <rick_h_> I wish I knew/wrote haskell well, but I don't. Tried to get started twice and failed so must be I am missing brain cells for it
[17:52] <snap-l> rick_h_: How are you with writing proofs?
[17:52]  * rick_h_ looks over at his shelf to see if any of his old books are still around
[17:52] <rick_h_> always hated proofs :P
[17:52] <rick_h_> but did pass the classes
[17:52] <snap-l> rick_h_: bingo
[17:53] <rick_h_> no, I think it's that I can't incrementally get my head around it
[17:53] <snap-l> Haskell always felt to me like you were writing proofs, not programming.
[17:53] <rick_h_> anything I can think to code up is IO and as soon as you say "IO" in haskell you have to jump to the back of the book and dive in deep
[17:53] <greg-g> interesting, I haven't really taken a gander at it
[17:54] <rick_h_> and honestly, I gave it one honest shot and bought a second book I'm supposed to give it another shot one day
[17:54] <rick_h_> but Go seems more useful to me so that's where I need to head
[17:54] <greg-g> also interesting, given that is what Joey Hess chose to develop git-annex with
[17:54] <rick_h_> yea, dave (Gnome Do fame) is a HUGE haskell junkie and did it a ton in school
[17:54] <greg-g> (git-annex being IO intensive)
[17:54] <greg-g> yeah, sounds like him too
[17:54] <rick_h_> yea, I don't want to say you can't do IO, it's there
[17:54]  * greg-g nods
[17:55] <rick_h_> but it's not like getting to the chapter in Python on reading/writing files
[17:55] <rick_h_> with open('myfile.txt') as fh: for l in fh: print l
[17:55] <snap-l> Python follows a very Unix-style of i/o
[17:55] <rick_h_> I tried to do some log file parsing/processing scripts and just couldn't get past step 2 in my first haskell attempt
[17:55] <snap-l> so it's very straightforward for that mindset
[17:56] <rick_h_> python is for idiots, I'm an idiot, carry on :)
[17:56] <snap-l> Python makes me feel like an idiot savant
[17:57] <rick_h_> meh, it's a mess. It's kind of slapped together to get crap done...but people smarter than the php folks that slapped stuff together to get $#@$@# done
[17:58] <snap-l> rick_h_: programming perfectionis overrated
[17:58] <snap-l> if we wanted OO perfection, we'd be talking about lisp and smalltalk
[17:58] <snap-l> cue jrwren in 3...2..1..
[18:05] <rick_h_> and with this I think I'm done for the day https://twitter.com/lrz/status/212236420499255296
[18:05] <rick_h_> just threw up in my mouth a little
[18:09] <greg-g> rick_h_: does vim really have much to do with that issue, though? isn't that handled by whatever terminal emulator you're using?
[18:09] <greg-g> (font resolution/etc)
[18:10] <rick_h_> greg-g: assuming they want gvim
[18:10] <greg-g> oh, well then why didn't they say so?!
[18:10] <brousch> macvim
[18:10] <rick_h_> the retina stuff is funny, you need native app support/etc for it to use full resolution
[18:10] <rick_h_> you can't just say "make my screen full 2880 res"
[18:10] <greg-g> jerks who assume that their special little version of something is the canonical version annoy me
[18:11] <greg-g> like, people who say "Adium me"
[18:11] <greg-g> "FUCK YOU! I will not! I will IM you."
[18:12] <rick_h_> want some scotch tape?
[18:12] <rick_h_> :P
[18:12] <brousch> Ubuntu is Linux!
[18:16] <jrwren> <3 lisp and smalltalk
[18:21] <jrwren> i am a proud owner of CMCSA stock.
[18:21] <jrwren> from this point forward you can call me out anytime I praise comcast.
[18:22] <greg-g> SHILL!
[18:27] <snap-l> probably want macvim
[18:28] <snap-l> Mac terminal vim is kind of ugly in all respects.
[18:30] <jrwren> why do you say that? its vim like another another.
[18:30] <jrwren> but no py support. brew install vim if you aren't going to do macvim.
[18:32] <snap-l> jrwren: It just didn't feel right to me.
[18:32] <snap-l> Felt clunky, and just off from Linux vim
[18:32] <snap-l> but indeed, I was using the built-in version
[18:41] <snap-l> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Date-Selector-of-the-Damned.aspx
[18:46] <jrwren> snap-l: i kinda know waht you mean, and I'm not sure.
[18:46] <jrwren> but I prefer gvim to vim when possible
[18:47] <snap-l> Yeah, it's a taste thing.
[18:47] <snap-l> I find myself in plain terminal vim more than anything
[18:47] <snap-l> even though I know gvim is slightly faster in rendering
[19:10] <nullspace> rick_h_: you seriously dd-ed your /dev/sdb ?
[19:14] <jrwren> where did I get the idea that None evals to false
[19:14] <jrwren> he really did
[19:30] <greg-g> this is a great use of browser location data: http://www.parks.ca.gov/ParkIndex/
[20:34] <rick_h_> nullspace: yes, yes I did
[20:35] <rick_h_> it does, if var where var == None will follow false case
[20:37] <jrwren> if None: print "hi"
[20:37] <jrwren> does not print :)
[20:38] <jrwren> x=None;if x: print "hi" #also does not print
[20:38] <rick_h_> None is false
[20:38] <rick_h_> right, if (None) == False
[20:38] <rick_h_> if not None: print "hi"
[20:39] <rick_h_> will print
[20:39] <jrwren> oh right.
[20:39] <jrwren> i think I meant opposite.
[20:39] <jrwren> what I actually had
[20:39] <jrwren> x = someThingMightReturnNone()
[20:39] <jrwren> if x:
[20:40] <jrwren> and when x was not none, it didn't follow true path
[20:40] <rick_h_> should, unless it came back something else false-ish
[20:40] <jrwren> maybe the type that it did return overrides __whatever_it_is_for_truth__
[20:40] <rick_h_> ""
[20:40] <rick_h_> []
[20:40] <brousch> Many things evaluate to False
[20:40] <rick_h_> 0
[20:40] <jrwren> right
[20:40] <jrwren> i changed to if not x is none:
[20:40] <jrwren> and i get the behavior I want
[20:40] <rick_h_> ah, gotcha
[20:41] <rick_h_> yea, 'is' is good for None type thing
[20:41] <jrwren> right.
[20:41] <brousch> if x is not None
[20:41] <rick_h_> he wants to do the opposite though
[20:41] <rick_h_> oh right, brousch ftw
[20:41] <rick_h_> you want to execute as long as the return value is not none
[20:41] <jrwren> pylint doesn't warn me about it, so it isn't important :)
[20:42] <rick_h_> so is not None ftw
[20:42] <rick_h_> yes, readability ftw!
[20:42] <rick_h_> change it!!!!!! we peer pressure you
[20:42] <jrwren> write a pylint rule for it and I'll change it :)
[20:43] <brousch> heh
[20:43] <jrwren> anyone know offhand if elementree Element does override that __truthy_thing__ ?
[20:44] <brousch> PEP8 page under Programming Recommendations uses "is not None"
[20:45] <brousch> "Comparisons to singletons like None should always be done with is or is not, never the equality operators. Also, beware of writing if x when you really mean if x is not None -- e.g. when testing whether a variable or argument that defaults to None was set to some other value. The other value might have a type (such as a container) that could be false in a boolean context!"
[20:46] <jrwren> damn.
[20:47] <rick_h_> jrwren: check for __bool__ and you can dir(el) to kind of see
[20:47] <jrwren> hehe, I dont' know elementree well enough to do that quickly but its a good exersize for me.
[20:48] <rick_h_> bpython
[20:48] <rick_h_> from elementtree import fragment_fromstring
[20:48] <jrwren> lol, yes yes.
[20:48] <rick_h_> tree = fragment_fromstring('<div/')
[20:48] <rick_h_> dir(tree)
[20:48] <jrwren> oh, fragment_fromstring I don't know.
[20:48] <jrwren> thanks.
[20:49] <rick_h_> I use etree a lot in breadability for the html parsing/cleaning https://github.com/mitechie/breadability/blob/master/src/breadability/readable.py
[20:50] <jrwren> that is different from ElementTree isn't it?
[20:53] <jrwren> I don't see __bool__
[20:53] <jrwren> yet it is not true
[20:55] <jrwren> hrm... it does imple __dict__ and in both cases that __dict__ is empty. I'll bet that is it.
[20:55] <jrwren> such b.s.
[20:56] <jrwren> Caution: Elements with no subelements will test as False. This behavior will change in future versions. Use specific len(elem) or elem is None test instead.
[20:56] <jrwren> its in teh docs.
[20:56] <jrwren> I CAN READ!
[20:57] <jrwren> i'm just glad that mystery is solved.
[20:57] <jrwren> i would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you... element object coders.
[21:09] <rick_h_> lol
[21:14] <rick_h_> https://teespring.com/git-blame :)
[21:15] <rick_h_> though can't muster the courage to buy a black t-shirt when it's 93 outside and I'm roasting from mowing the lawn
[22:52] <nullspace> rick_h_: can't make it wife is telling me I can't go, can we do this next week