[01:44] <ochosi> Unit193: i'm afraid i have to disappoint you
[01:44] <Unit193> No blackbird. :/
[01:45] <ochosi> Unit193: no, not that :)
[01:45] <ochosi> i mean: the categories you put down in the settings-manager UI are fine and dandy, but you can't create new categories on-the-fly it seems
[01:45] <ochosi> so we'll have to live with what we got
[01:46] <ochosi> everything isn't part of the defined standard categories goes into "other" automatically
[01:47] <ochosi> ergo the current list will have to be re-adjusted to fit the existing categories in the 4.10 settings-manager
[01:47] <Unit193> Alright, that works.
[01:47] <Unit193> Once I know the list.
[01:48] <ochosi> personal, hardware, system, other
[01:49] <ochosi> that's it, no more, no less
[01:49] <Unit193> Welp, not my fault.
[01:50] <ochosi> i guess the .menu file of the settings-manager could be patched to allow more categories
[01:50] <ochosi> but personally i'd prefer and keep it simple
[01:50] <Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008260.html Indicates a meeting tomorrow, but not on the calendar, unless I'm blind. pleia2 <<<
[01:50] <ochosi> so maybe trying to stick to these makes sense
[01:50] <ochosi> yeah, there is a meeting tomorrow afaik
[01:50] <Unit193> Yes, just was trying to conform to what you requested.
[01:50] <ochosi> i'm supposed to chair it, but i'm not sure i can make it
[01:50] <Unit193> Not it.
[01:52] <ochosi> anyway, g2g to bed no
[01:52] <ochosi> w
[01:52] <ochosi> if you have time it'd be great if you could apply the new categories :)
[01:53] <ochosi> ttyl, night Unit193 
[01:53] <Unit193> Good night, ochosi.
[01:58] <Unit193> knome: Take a look over those please?  I'm just randomly making something up, and would adding Passwords and Keys be good?
[02:33] <pleia2> Next Xubuntu community meeting at 21st of June, at 15UTC (knome, 15:55:04)
[02:34] <pleia2> but that's thursday
[02:34] <pleia2> (last one was on wednesday)
[02:37] <Unit193> If you wouldn't mind putting it on the GCal?
[02:37] <pleia2> for wednesday or thursday?
[02:38] <Unit193> Yes.
[02:38] <pleia2> :P
[02:39] <pleia2> meetings every day!
[02:39] <Unit193> Heh, whenever the meeting is. :P
[02:39] <pleia2> our last one was wednesday, in his email knome said "tomorrow" but in the meeting minutes for last time he said thursday
[02:39] <pleia2> so I'm thinking tomorrow/wednesday
[02:39] <pleia2> not the 21st
[02:40] <pleia2> ok, added it for tomorrow
[02:44] <Unit193> Danke.
[06:04] <astraljava> We could try a rolling meeting procedure. Analogous to gentoo's rolling releases.
[06:09]  * micahg will probably miss this one too as it's looking to be a late night
[06:19] <astraljava> micahg: Don't worry about the meeting, but if you have any pointers regarding the milestone next week, please do share. Otherwise, take care and don't burn out. :)
[06:24] <micahg> astraljava: just that we need testers and to let mr_pouit or I know if something is broke
[06:24] <astraljava> micahg: Sure thing. Thanks!
[06:25] <astraljava> I'm going through the results on the tracker before today's meetings, I'll pick up the bugs mentioned there.
[06:25] <micahg> although, my time is very limited until the weekend
[06:27] <astraljava> No worries, I'll mention them, but I won't expect you to stand on guard ready to act immediately. I'll see if I can do something myself, too. It's high time for me to get into bug fixing for Xfce. :)
[06:34] <hobgoblin> astraljava: one of the ones I reported is fix committed for precise - not sure it's been reported against quantal though
[06:36] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Ok. Do you have the bug # handy?
[06:36] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/870297
[06:37] <hobgoblin> I can do the bug if necessary
[06:49] <astraljava> Ok, so it should be hitting quantal when the fixed version gets released.
[06:52] <hobgoblin> k - no need for extra work then - sounds good to me 
[07:39] <knome> pleia2, yeah, it's always wednesday
[07:50] <astraljava> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/092607/
[07:51] <Unit193> knome: Had to re-categorize the programs, as you can't have custom ones.
[07:54] <knome> Unit193, i noticed, still looks good
[07:55] <knome> astraljava, erh, ok. :)
[07:55] <knome> astraljava, i don't quite "get" that comic, but ok
[07:55] <knome> astraljava, i mean, mtts generally
[07:57] <Unit193> Feel free to change around, I was guessing at best. :P
[07:57] <astraljava> They're really weird. Just thought it was fitting for the day.
[07:57] <knome> heh, i suppose.
[07:57] <knome> as if i didn't like weird stuff.
[07:58] <knome> should make some phonecalls
[10:31] <ochosi> hi everyone
[10:32] <hobgoblin> morning ochosi 
[10:32] <ochosi> actually it's high noon here :)
[10:32] <ochosi> but morning hobgoblin 
[10:32] <hobgoblin> :)
[10:33] <hobgoblin> another 30 minutes and it'll be afternoon here too 
[10:52] <ochosi> :)
[10:53] <ochosi> astraljava: just to be sure, do you need anything else from me for the display-dialog or can you pursue this by yourself on the weekend?
[10:53] <ochosi> madnick: ping
[11:46] <madnick> ochosi: pong
[11:46] <ochosi> hey, i just wanted to quickly follow up on yesterday
[11:46] <madnick> which part?
[11:46] <ochosi> :)
[11:46] <ochosi> the xubuntu-greeter part
[11:47] <madnick> ah, yeah, I need to generate a new key
[11:47] <ochosi> ok
[11:47] <ochosi> just wanted to ask because there was no initial push yet
[11:47] <madnick> i just need to figure out how i can keep it his time
[11:47] <madnick> ochosi: yeah you need the key for bzr
[11:47] <ochosi> don't leave it in the VM? ;)
[11:47] <madnick> hehe
[11:48] <madnick> I need the VM for the dev environment :-<
[11:48] <madnick> I suppose I could manually copy it
[11:48] <ochosi> sure, but you can copy it to a safe location
[11:48] <ochosi> (some call that "backups")
[11:48] <madnick> I heard of those mythical things
[11:49] <ochosi> okie :)
[11:50] <ochosi> ok, in that case i guess we have to wait until you have a key again
[11:50] <ochosi> s/we/i/ :)
[11:51] <ochosi> i think we need to create a todo-list of the changes though
[11:51] <madnick> Yeah, I'll try to get to it asap, poke me with a stick if its not done tomorrow before 09:00
[11:51] <madnick> ochosi: yes
[11:51] <ochosi> one simple thing i'd love is for the login-box to be centered
[11:52] <ochosi> and we need to replace gnome-settings-daemon with xfsettingsd
[11:52] <ochosi> and ideally manage multi-monitor-support
[11:52] <ochosi> if that's not baked into unity-greeter already
[11:52] <ochosi> that's already it
[11:52] <madnick> i think it it draws the bg
[11:52] <madnick> for each screen
[11:52] <ochosi> yeah, but does it also only display _one_ login box?
[11:52] <madnick> yes
[11:52] <ochosi> my experience was that it mirrors
[11:52] <ochosi> ok
[11:53] <ochosi> then that's fine
[11:53] <madnick> Hm, you made me unsure now
[11:53] <ochosi> but it'd be nice if the behaviour of primary-monitor would match the behaviour of the xubuntu-session
[11:53] <madnick> Because in 12.04 I can only get mirrored anyway, thats why I still run 11.04 on this machine
[11:53] <ochosi> a-ha
[11:53] <ochosi> ok, so: mandatory is to drop g-s-d
[11:54] <ochosi> optional is: small design tweaks (e.g. login-box alignment)
[11:54] <madnick> mandatory: change add an "x" to "ubuntu"
[11:54] <ochosi> wishful-thinking is: multi-monitor-support as drafted in the spec: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors
[11:55] <ochosi> the settings-gui is also optional imo
[11:55] <ochosi> better get a working greeter first
[11:56] <ochosi> madnick: i'm off for lunch now, would you mind compiling that into a list and throwing it on the whiteboard? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-new-lightdm
[11:56] <madnick> sure
[11:57] <ochosi> ok, thanks
[11:57] <ochosi> ttyl!
[11:59] <knome> ochosi, astraljava, pleia2: just reminding: i'm not able to make the meeting today.
[12:00] <knome> ochosi, astraljava, pleia2: somebody of you should chair
[12:00] <knome> err, english fail, but anyway
[12:01] <madnick> I did not change the work items in the blueprint, since they are general (like an apple patent), but I added the stuff to the whiteboard :)
[12:05] <knome> i'd maybe add a work item for "Replace gnome-settings-daemon with xfsettingsd"
[12:08] <madnick> knome: True
[12:08] <knome> that's kind of separate, the rest belong with the general item
[12:49] <thauriswulfa> they should add this metaphor to dictionary : like an apple patent. ha  ha ha
[12:50] <thauriswulfa> simile , my bad
[13:27] <ochosi> knome: are you still there?
[13:27] <knome> ochosi, for a few mins
[13:28] <ochosi> knome: ok, i just wanted to say that i can chair the meeting
[13:28] <knome> ok, good
[13:28] <ochosi> also: what's the plan for the action-item "en/disable compositor"?
[13:28] <knome> in the "open action items" -item, just go through things from the last meetings that ain't done yet
[13:29] <knome> discussion, but i think we need to postpone that
[13:29] <ochosi> ok, i'll just work with last meeting's summary
[13:29] <ochosi> maybe some of the others will be there as well and help me out :)
[13:29] <knome> well, there is the quicklist for actions
[13:30] <ochosi> a-ha?
[13:30] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[13:30] <knome> see "Action items, by person"
[13:30] <knome> other than those, there is really nothing
[13:30] <ochosi> oh right
[13:30] <ochosi> yeah, that's useful
[13:30] <knome> well, on the announcements, just point to the ML link
[13:30] <knome> and say feedback is welcome
[13:30] <ochosi> btw, have you talked to gridcube yet about the music-player thingy?
[13:30] <knome> i think janne might want to go through some testing stuff
[13:31] <knome> no, not yet
[13:31] <ochosi> ok
[13:31] <ochosi> how much time do you have now?
[13:31] <ochosi> we could quickly drop a few music-players
[13:31] <ochosi> :}
[13:31] <knome> i don't know, but 0-5mins
[13:31] <ochosi> that should work ;)
[13:31] <knome> i got to go when i get a call
[13:31] <knome> ok
[13:32] <ochosi> let's drop: moc, nightingale, clementine for sure
[13:32] <knome> drop: anything with Qt, anything CLI, nighthingale
[13:32] <ochosi> lol
[13:32] <ochosi> exactly
[13:33] <ochosi> many of the others need investigation
[13:33] <ochosi> and i think we have to add a few and remove others
[13:33] <knome> done.
[13:33] <ochosi> but first off, we should decide whether the list of "desired features" is ok
[13:33] <knome> ok
[13:33] <knome> i need to go now
[13:33] <knome> see you later
[13:33] <ochosi> alrighty
[13:33] <ochosi> seeya
[13:34] <hobgoblin> I can give you some input on that if you want it ochosi 
[13:34] <ochosi> sure
[13:35] <hobgoblin> all of those desired features are important to me :)
[13:36] <hobgoblin> the first 3 are important imo
[13:37] <hobgoblin> saving playlists is too - searching and podcasts less so
[13:39] <hobgoblin> as far as the list goes - exaile will save playlists - it just calls it export
[13:40] <hobgoblin> I've never been able to tell the difference between gmusicbroswer and quodlibet
[13:40] <hobgoblin> of the 'simple' ones listen is the best I think
[13:40] <ochosi> actually there are a few other criteria that are important for an app, apart from features
[13:40] <ochosi> e.g. how well is it maintained
[13:41] <hobgoblin> of course there are - I'm looking at it from a user pov :)
[13:41] <ochosi> is there a roadmap that implies that stuff we want will be implemented in the (near?) future
[13:41] <ochosi> stuff like that :)
[13:41] <ochosi> yeah, just sayin that this has to be taken into account#
[13:41] <hobgoblin> not that I know of - but I've only really been involved for a short while :)
[13:42] <hobgoblin> I said I'd give gridcube a hand with this - but I've not seen him much to speak too 
[14:03] <ochosi> i added a few inline comments to gridcube's user-experience section
[14:03] <ochosi> if you see him feel free to let him know
[14:03] <ochosi> also: feel free to read through them yourself, i'm always open for discussions
[14:09] <astraljava> I think he said he should be available today, flag day or something.
[14:12] <astraljava> hobgoblin: I'm still only half-way through getting the test results. Are you available for the meeting in less than an hour? I wanna talk about Alpha-2, and you have been testing it the most. Your input would be very valuable.
[14:13] <hobgoblin> I'll be about - ping me :)
[14:29] <astraljava> Thanks, will do, when the time comes. But it'll be obvious if you follow the meeting anyway. :)
[14:31] <hobgoblin> I'm right in the middle of trying to find out how my isp e-mail account has been compromised :(
[14:31] <hobgoblin> so I might not be following ... 
[14:39] <ochosi> ouch
[14:40] <ochosi> Reminder/Disclaimer: -- Xubuntu Community meeting in 20min here. --
[14:44] <hobgoblin> sigh
[14:51] <astraljava> ouch indeed
[14:56] <hobgoblin> k - all ears now 
[14:56] <astraljava> Three minutes still. MAKE SOME NOISE!! *ahem*
[14:58] <hobgoblin> :)
[14:58] <pleia2> morning
[14:59] <foobar55> stop smoking plz
[14:59] <ochosi> morning pleia2 
[15:00] <ochosi> astraljava, pleia2: do any of you two feel like chairing? ^^
[15:01] <astraljava> I thought you meant to? :)
[15:01] <pleia2> not really, just woke up, still pre-coffee :)
[15:01] <ochosi> astraljava: well i can :) but i don't mind if any of you want to
[15:02]  * ochosi is so extremely humble, it's hard to take
[15:02] <astraljava> Go ahead, be strong! You can do it. :) I'll cover the next one, then.
[15:02] <ochosi> pleia2: ok, i guess that speaks for itself :)
[15:02] <ochosi> astraljava: hehe, ok ;)
[15:02] <ochosi> meetingology: ready?
[15:02] <meetingology> ochosi: Error: "ready?" is not a valid command.
[15:02] <ochosi> i take that as a "yes"
[15:03] <ochosi> #startmeeting
[15:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 20 15:03:01 2012 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:03] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:03] <ochosi> soo, welcome everyone
[15:03] <ochosi> first thing on our agenda are the open action items from last time
[15:03] <ochosi> i
[15:03] <ochosi> i'll go through them by person
[15:03] <ochosi> astraljava: what about your two action-items?
[15:04] <astraljava> #info astraljava to send information on the Xubuntu QA meeting - DONE
[15:04] <astraljava> #info astraljava to look at enabling/disabling compositor - PENDING
[15:05] <ochosi> ok
[15:05] <astraljava> I can talk about the first one on QA section.
[15:05] <astraljava> ..
[15:05] <ochosi> sounds good
[15:05] <ochosi> pleia2: what about your two items? (work on marketing products with knome, raise publicity on testing/docs)
[15:06] <pleia2> #info pleia2 and knome to work on marketing products is in progress, I made some edits to Xubuntu/Marketing this past week but still need to gather content for fliers
[15:06] <pleia2> #info pleia2 to raise publicity on triaging, testing and docs - no updates here
[15:07] <pleia2> .
[15:08] <ochosi> k, thanks
[15:09] <ochosi> #info ochosi to send more information on Greybird and a request for feedback to ML - PENDING
[15:09] <ochosi> #info information on Greybird has been distributed through the website and google+ so far, mailinglist will follow shortly
[15:10] <ochosi> ok, since knome isn't present, this is it with open action-items from last time
[15:10] <ochosi> personally i think the compositor-discussion should be postponed until astraljava has fully investigated
[15:10] <ochosi> astraljava: what do you think? ^
[15:11] <astraljava> I agree, it needs more data to back up any decisions.
[15:11] <astraljava> ..
[15:11] <ochosi> ok, good, let's continue with teams
[15:11] <ochosi> #topic development
[15:11] <ochosi> mr_pouit, micahg: any further updates in the development department?
[15:12] <ochosi> ok, let's skip ahead to QA and get back to development if one of the two comes around
[15:12] <ochosi> #topic Quality Assurance
[15:12] <ochosi> astraljava: take the stage :)
[15:13] <astraljava> #info We had our QA meeting last Sunday, the minutes of which can be read at:
[15:13] <astraljava> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008252.html
[15:14] <astraljava> #info We have again a similar meeting this coming Sunday, details can be found on the minutes above.
[15:14] <astraljava> #info Loosely, new testers were guided on how to do quality assurance, how to follow the testcases, where to get images to be tested etc.
[15:16] <astraljava> #info It was agreed that the testcases need more refinery. Related to that, we just had the Ubuntu QA community meeting. Agreed on there was that each point in testcase is critical, meaning if any of them fails, the whole test fails.
[15:16] <astraljava> #info There's also going to be new testcases, and a new interface for administering them, for flavors as well. More news about this when the thing develops.
[15:17] <astraljava> #info We have had a few tests done on the images (thanks hobgoblin, others!), but I need to gather a bit more data on how we're doing. This is more important to the upcoming milestone release, Alpha-2 next week.
[15:18] <astraljava> But we should talk about that later this meeting, not strictly a QA thing. 
[15:18] <astraljava> ..
[15:20] <ochosi> ok
[15:20] <ochosi> astraljava: so you're done with QA for now?
[15:20] <astraljava> Yep, that's what the '..' is there for. :)
[15:20] <ochosi> ok :)
[15:20] <ochosi> just wanted to make sure
[15:20] <ochosi> #topic Marketing, Promotion
[15:20] <ochosi> pleia2: ?
[15:21] <pleia2> #info knome mentioned it in passing last week, but we have a LinkedIn Xubuntu Users group now which is linked on the website and marketing page (with contact info for admins): http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Xubuntu-Users-4058113
[15:22] <pleia2> #info I have some stickers to give away, but I'm going to blog about that on my personal blog and keep the "how to make stickers" stuff on the Products page
[15:23] <pleia2> this week I'm going to review our "Define the Xubuntu target audience" on our /Marketing page to better define that as *marketing* target audience (broader target audience is addressed in the strat document
[15:23] <pleia2> ^^ you can action me
[15:23] <pleia2> that's pretty much it
[15:23] <pleia2> ..
[15:24] <ochosi> #action pleia2 to review "target audience" as "marketing target audience" on the Marketing page
[15:24] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to review "target audience" as "marketing target audience" on the Marketing page
[15:24] <ochosi> #topic Artwork
[15:24] <ochosi> as you know i've reworked parts of our default theme
[15:25] <ochosi> #info Greybird has been reworked and a blog post on the website has informed people about some of the changes
[15:26] <ochosi> #info Our icon-theme will also need a few tweaks, but we'll have to wait for our first (alpha) release to be able to test
[15:26] <ochosi> astraljava: in fact this is something we could've discussed in QA, it would be great if people could also report missing icons or theme-bugs
[15:27] <pleia2> is there anything we can add to the /Long test this cycle to specifically target some of the changes?
[15:27] <ochosi> you mean the greybird-changes?
[15:27] <pleia2> yeah
[15:27] <ochosi> not really. if anything, it'll be more robust with the bright menus
[15:27] <ochosi> the dark menus were a troublemaker from the beginning...
[15:27]  * pleia2 nods
[15:28] <astraljava> Bugs can be filed as usual, and reported on ISO testing as well, nothing special there.
[15:28] <ochosi> but there could again be changes in gtk3 or the unico-engine which might trigger bugs
[15:28] <ochosi> yeah, i agree
[15:28] <ochosi> i just wanted to make people more aware that visual glitches are also bugs :)
[15:28] <pleia2> sure, just wondering if there is anything in particular we'll need to draw attention to in the testcase
[15:28] <pleia2> yeah
[15:29] <ochosi> tbh i haven't thought about it enough, it was more an idea just now
[15:29] <ochosi> bluesabre did quite a lot of those small bug-reports for visual glitches last release. very useful stuff for me
[15:30] <ochosi> maybe it's just the attention to visual detail
[15:30] <ochosi> i'd say the panel, the menus and the desktop are the three first impressions
[15:30] <bluesabre> (I figured it was just annoying) :)
[15:31] <ochosi> bluesabre: hehe, no seriously, it was really helpful
[15:31] <ochosi> bluesabre: what would you draw attention to specifically for testers?
[15:32] <ochosi> anyway, we can also discuss that after the meeting
[15:32] <ochosi> no rush
[15:32] <ochosi> skipping ahead...
[15:32] <ochosi> #topic General updates
[15:32] <ochosi> any more updates anyone?
[15:36] <bluesabre> I guess I should mention that anybody who wants to do translation work could have a look at the catfish update.
[15:36] <ochosi> yup
[15:36] <bluesabre> lp:catfish-search
[15:36] <bluesabre> :)
[15:36] <ochosi> please use a leading #info or #link
[15:37] <ochosi> that way it'll get in the minutes
[15:37] <ochosi> what do you think about sending an email to the ML with a call for translations?
[15:37] <bluesabre> Sure, where do I email that to?
[15:38] <ochosi> i guess both the -devel and the -users list
[15:38] <bluesabre> #info Anyone who is interested in translation work, we need new translations for lp:catfish-search
[15:38] <bluesabre> #link https://launchpad.net/catfish-search
[15:39] <ochosi> #action bluesabre to send email to our MLs calling for translations for lp:catfish-search
[15:39] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to send email to our MLs calling for translations for lp:catfish-search
[15:39] <ochosi> any more updates?
[15:40] <Unit193> Not in catfish-gtk3 anymore?
[15:41] <ochosi> Unit193: no, that was a private branch
[15:41] <ochosi> we made it a real launchpad-project now
[15:41] <ochosi> so it can supersede current catfish properly
[15:41] <Unit193> Missed that part, could be why no updates. :P
[15:43] <ochosi> ok, let's skip ahead again
[15:43] <ochosi> #topic Announcements
[15:43] <ochosi> #info there's a review underway of the Xubuntu Strategy Document
[15:43] <ochosi> #info An email has been sent by knome to the ML
[15:43] <ochosi> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008253.html
[15:44] <ochosi> #info The community is asked to give feedback on the review
[15:44] <ochosi> any other announcements?
[15:44] <ochosi> pleia2, astraljava ?
[15:45] <pleia2> nope
[15:45] <astraljava> Nothing from me.
[15:45] <Unit193> I'd assume the settings manager blueprint will be looked at later?
[15:45] <ochosi> Unit193: do you need guidance/feedback for that or anything?
[15:46] <astraljava> Probably skip to the next item on the agenda, anyway.
[15:46] <Unit193> Just if I'm missing any programs, just trying to follow process?
[15:46] <ochosi> Unit193: ok, we can look at it later if you want
[15:46] <ochosi> two more updates
[15:47] <ochosi> #info mr_pouit's work-items will have to be re-distributed, he'll be busy with RL during most of this cycle
[15:47] <ochosi> #info astraljava will take a look at improving xfce4-display dialog this weekend
[15:48] <ochosi> #info madnick is in process of forking unity-greeter as "xubuntu-greeter", which means we'll (hopefully) have a fully-fledged greeter for 12.10
[15:48] <ochosi> (actually those were three)
[15:48] <ochosi> #topic New and emerging items
[15:48] <astraljava> o/
[15:48] <ochosi> astraljava: shoot
[15:49] <astraljava> This is the spot I want to use for Alpha-2 talk.
[15:49] <ochosi> sure
[15:49] <ochosi> go ahead
[15:49] <astraljava> #info Alpha-2 milestones is during next week. Releases are always on Thursdays here in the *buntu-land. I'm gonna need to send a decision to the release meeting this Friday.
[15:50] <astraljava> hobgoblin: You have been doing most of the testing. What is your feeling about the quality of the present images?
[15:50] <hobgoblin> mostly good imo
[15:51] <hobgoblin> the only bug I found which really annoyed me was the no partitions showing in thunar/usb's not mounting 
[15:51] <hobgoblin> the who bug is sorted I think
[15:51] <ochosi> the "who bug"?
[15:51] <hobgoblin> other than that - they all seem to be fine for me 
[15:52] <hobgoblin> I have no users on my system - a lightdm bug I believe
[15:52] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/870297
[15:52] <hobgoblin> that one
[15:53] <ochosi> ok
[15:53] <ochosi> yeah, it's marked as fix committed, might take a bit until it lands
[15:53] <hobgoblin> indeed
[15:53] <ochosi> (but it also affects ubuntu)
[15:53] <ochosi> (so maybe it won't take that long)
[15:53] <hobgoblin> :)
[15:53] <pleia2> I can try to do a daily test before friday too
[15:53] <ochosi> astraljava: are there any downsides to releasing an alpha-2?
[15:54] <pleia2> then we should start getting some release notes together
[15:54] <astraljava> In any case, that bug won't affect to normal usage and releasability.
[15:54] <hobgoblin> I'll manage to do some more before Friday too 
[15:54] <astraljava> ochosi: Not really, other than the slight overhead which pleia2 just mentioned.
[15:54] <ochosi> pleia2: ok, actually now i have an icon-thing i'd like testers to look at in 12.10a²
[15:55] <ochosi> gtk3 introduced symbolic-icons
[15:55] <astraljava> ochosi: And of course maybe the increased traffic on support channels. :)
[15:55] <ochosi> we already support them, but gtk3 apps might've switched even more of their icons to symbolic ones
[15:55] <ochosi> so it would be great if people could look for broken icons in our gtk3 apps
[15:55] <astraljava> But we're moving away from the topic here a little. Do we, as the team, support releasing the Alpha-2?
[15:55] <ochosi> (evince,abiword,etc.)
[15:56] <ochosi> astraljava: +1
[15:57] <astraljava> pleia2: Are you free to do some release note writing with me and knome?
[15:57] <bluesabre> Sweet, broken icons
[15:57] <pleia2> astraljava: yep
[15:58] <astraljava> Okay, then I guess we can release.
[15:58] <ochosi> nice
[15:58] <astraljava> #info The team decides to release Alpha-2
[15:58] <astraljava> #action astraljava, pleia2, knome to write release notes
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: astraljava, pleia2, knome to write release notes
[15:58] <astraljava> ..
[15:58] <bluesabre> Next Thursday is going to be fun
[15:59] <ochosi> ok, what about the next meeting? same time next week?
[15:59] <astraljava> +1
[15:59] <bluesabre> +1
[15:59] <ochosi> (oh, actually i just see in my calendar now that it probably won't be possible for me to attend :( )
[16:00] <ochosi> astraljava: then you'll get your chance to chair ;)
[16:00] <astraljava> ACK
[16:00] <hobgoblin> :)
[16:01] <ochosi> i just see now that you voted for bi-weekly meetings last time?
[16:01] <astraljava> Yes, but today was special due to Alpha-2 next week.
[16:02] <pleia2> having a meeting the day before alpha2 is probably good
[16:02] <ochosi> and next time will be special due to the same reason i guess :)
[16:02] <ochosi> yeah
[16:02] <ochosi> ok
[16:02] <pleia2> I'll add it to the calendar
[16:02] <hobgoblin> lot's of special reasons then 
[16:02] <ochosi> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting at 27th of June, at 15UTC
[16:03] <ochosi> pleia2: thanks
[16:03] <astraljava> Well, technically next week falls into the schedule. Milestones cause special events.
[16:03] <ochosi> righty, i guess that was it
[16:03] <ochosi> thanks for your attendance everyone!
[16:03] <ochosi> #endmeeting
[16:03] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 20 16:03:36 2012 UTC.  
[16:03] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-20-15.03.moin.txt
[16:03] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-20-15.03.html
[16:03] <Unit193> ochosi, pleia2: Danke.
[16:03] <astraljava> Thanks for chairing, ochosi, others for participating!
[16:03] <ochosi> yw :)
[16:04] <hobgoblin> ty ochosi 
[16:04] <pleia2> I can toss the minutes up on the meeting page in a bit if you'd like
[16:04] <ochosi> pleia2: that'd be pretty great, cause i have to run in a few mins
[16:04] <astraljava> Just a small reminder, I know we have a very relaxed policy here on this channel, but let's try to keep chit-chat to a minimum during the meetings. Also, sticking to the topic is highly appreciated.
[16:04] <ochosi> +1
[16:04] <ochosi> and sry for drifting off a bit before :)
[16:05] <astraljava> It's fine. :) Like I said, let's keep it to a minimum. :)
[16:05]  * astraljava doesn't intend to make these like the kernel team's...
[16:08] <ochosi> bluesabre: if one of us gets to test alpha2 we should look at gtk3 apps to find broken icons
[16:08] <ochosi> bluesabre: like the two icons in calculator you found in 12.04
[16:08] <bluesabre> I will definitely check that out.
[16:08] <ochosi> i think gtk2 apps should mostly be fine
[16:08] <bluesabre> Missing icons are the easiest bugs to find and log :)
[16:08] <ochosi> :)
[16:09] <ochosi> if you have suggestions to improve icons in USC that'd also be welcome
[16:09] <ochosi> anyway, i gotta go now
[16:09] <ochosi> prolly bbl though
[16:09] <bluesabre> k, seeya
[16:10] <ochosi> yup, seeya!
[19:28] <knome> pleia2, thanks for putting the minutes up :)
[21:05] <ochosi> Unit193: sorry i couldn't be hear again earlier. you wanted to follow up on the settings-editor?
[21:05] <ochosi> err -manager
[21:06] <Unit193> Well, just that I was told it's supposed to be in some meeting, to gather more and weed out others.
[21:06] <knome> ochosi, Unit193: let's add that to the next meeting agenda
[21:06] <Unit193> Bokadoke.
[21:07] <ochosi> yup
[21:07] <knome> done.
[21:07] <ochosi> but we can still talk about it now
[21:07] <ochosi> GridCube: ping
[21:07] <knome> hehe, sure
[21:08] <Unit193> Whatever you say, doc.
[21:08] <knome> pleia2, ochosi, astraljava: btw, there is a tool to create a new "minutes" page with the template we're using at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/
[21:09] <ochosi> GridCube: we should talk about your music-player spec. i added a few comments to the "user-experience" part of the spec. please get back to me as soon as you've read it
[21:09] <ochosi> knome: oh, nice
[21:20] <ochosi> Unit193: would you mind moving the categories of the items next to each item in brackets? (settings-man spec)
[21:20] <ochosi> next we'd have to re-categorize them under the four categories that exist in settings-man
[21:20] <ochosi> but keeping the info of the menu-category might be useful
[21:20] <knome> huh?
[21:21] <knome> you mean a table?
[21:21] <knome> i just reverted a table ;)
[21:24] <ochosi> yeah, but a table makes more sense imo
[21:25] <knome> feel free to move to a table (again), but please incorporate the alternating row-colors
[21:25] <Unit193> ochosi: Design isn't exactly my thing, I had it table style, and knome put it in a different one, I don't care really at all how it's placed on there.
[21:25] <ochosi> Unit193: ^ ? ;)
[21:26] <knome> ochosi, there was a table, but i changed it to the list we have now
[21:26] <knome> (the table didn't have alt row-colors)
[21:26] <Unit193> (Table wasn't the best)
[21:26] <knome> well, it was like any plain table in the ubuntu wiki
[21:26] <knome> that is, totally not readable
[21:27] <ochosi> Unit193: could you copy the table-style from the roadmap page?
[21:27] <knome> or the top of the spec page
[21:27] <knome> that's the same style
[21:27] <Unit193> knome: ^^
[21:28] <knome> wut? :P
[21:28] <knome> i can do that
[21:28] <knome> just keep your sticky fingers out of the page for a sec then
[21:28] <knome> :)
[21:28] <knome> ochosi, what are the 4 categories you will have?
[21:30] <ochosi> personal, hardware, system, other
[21:30] <ochosi> they're hardcoded in settings-manager
[21:30] <knome> but we have those already on the page?
[21:30] <knome> look at it you lazy man!
[21:30]  * Unit193 added
[21:30] <knome> but i can sure make a table out of them, if you want.
[21:30] <knome> but i think this works well too
[21:30] <knome> or?
[21:31] <ochosi> knome: hey – i'm currently chatting with quentin about gmb so i'm distracted!! :)
[21:31] <knome> so are you satisfied with the current layout, or do you really really want the table?
[21:32] <ochosi> give me a minute
[21:33] <ochosi> i still want a table, because: i'd love to have additional info for each item
[21:33] <knome> aha
[21:33] <knome> like?
[21:33] <ochosi> e.g. what category they usually appear in in our menu
[21:33] <knome> does a separate table under each heading work for you?
[21:38] <knome> changes done and committed
[21:39] <ochosi> this is exactly how i would've wanted it :) thanks!
[21:39] <ochosi> Unit193: could you re-add the menu-categories?
[21:39] <knome> ok, good
[21:40] <knome> huh, was those in?
[21:40] <knome> i must've missed that.
[21:40] <knome> oh, right.
[21:40] <ochosi> that was before Unit193 changed the categories .)
[21:40] <knome> heh
[21:41] <ochosi> i think it helps to discuss where each item belongs
[21:41] <Unit193> Quite, I just put them there for now, I'm not attached to any (though, jockey makes sense)
[21:42] <Unit193> Users, and *maybe* time as well.
[21:50] <Unit193> Well, anything I can help with?
[21:51] <ochosi> yeag
[21:51] <ochosi> i thought you'd re-add the menu-categories into the table :p
[21:53] <Unit193> They are already in category, no need to double that...
[21:54] <ochosi> but they are in different categories
[21:54] <ochosi> atm they're in the pre-defined settings-manager categories
[21:54] <ochosi> i'd like to have the menu-category/categories in the table
[21:54] <ochosi> so that we know how the app-developers categorize their own apps
[21:55] <ochosi> e.g. i'd argue that language-support should go into "system"
[21:57] <Unit193> And I'd be ok with that, but I didn't have those before, and I'm pretty sure I know what you mean.
[22:01] <ochosi> ah ok
[22:01] <ochosi> would you mind adding them though? :}
[22:03] <Unit193> I don't have all of those, but I may feel like adding the others, if it'd actually help.
[22:04] <Unit193> Categories=GNOME;X-XFCE;GTK;Settings;DesktopSettings;X-GNOME-Settings-Panel;X-GNOME-PersonalSettings    For example would be personal or settings?
[22:05] <ochosi> you can make it easier on yourself and just put down the category the item appears in in our menu
[22:05] <ochosi> (at least if the category in our menu makes sense)
[22:06] <GridCube> :) ochosi pong
[22:07] <GridCube> removed the paragraph
[22:07] <knome> hey GridCube 
[22:07] <GridCube> sup mister k
[22:07] <knome> (me is partly unfocused, but will follow and answer questions)
[22:07] <ochosi> ok :)
[22:08] <ochosi> GridCube: i read your spec quite thoroughly today – for the first time though, i have to admit
[22:08] <ochosi> that's why i added the comments, because you said you wanted feedback on it
[22:08] <GridCube> mmhm, it read what was commented, it made lots of sense
[22:08] <GridCube> :D yes thanks
[22:08] <ochosi> but i also quickly want to give more feedback in a structured way
[22:08] <ochosi> first off:
[22:08] <ochosi> yw :)
[22:09] <ochosi> i really care about our default music player, that's why i pushed gmusicbrowser, because it's very customizable and i worked hard with knome on what we thought would be the smoothest user experience
[22:09] <ochosi> so your feedback is really valuable
[22:09] <GridCube> I understand
[22:10] <ochosi> i think one very important factor when looking at our default apps (apart from features) is how well they are maintained
[22:10] <ochosi> this hasn't really been talked about enough
[22:11] <ochosi> just a random example:
[22:11] <GridCube> mmhm yes, i agree with that 
[22:11] <ochosi> "listen" has had its latest release 2010
[22:11] <ochosi> that doesn't mean that it's bad software
[22:11] <ochosi> but it means that if we want a bug fixed, we might have to do it ourselves
[22:12] <ochosi> and we don't really have the dev-manpower
[22:12] <ochosi> i'm also just a stupid pixel-pusher, so shame on me :}
[22:13] <ochosi>  – i just realized i'm telling you why we chose gmb initially –
[22:13] <ochosi> just stop me if i bore you ;)
[22:13] <ochosi> one concern that was raised wrt gmusicbrowser as default player was maintenance
[22:13] <ochosi> gmusicbrowser is driven by mainly one person
[22:14] <ochosi> so if he stops, it's unmaintained
[22:14] <GridCube> ochosi, I don't think that gmb is bad, its not that, it has all the things we need, and is maintained, the thing is the user experience i've had, and the people I've converted agree, is that gmb is scary complicated
[22:14] <ochosi> mhm
[22:14] <ochosi> actually the point i wanted to get to in the end is this: (i think we can skip ahead that far)
[22:15] <ochosi> we can decide now to either (1) try to improve gmb based on your feedback
[22:15] <ochosi> or (2) try to skim through all kinds of music players out there and try to find a better one
[22:15] <ochosi> so far most of what i've read in your spec seems manageable
[22:15] <GridCube> i think that we could try to make gmb work
[22:15] <ochosi> and i have a really good contact to gmb's developer
[22:16] <ochosi> (actually i was talking with him a minute ago :) )
[22:16] <ochosi> ok, then let's try to improve it to a point where everyone is happy and if that doesn't work look for alternatives
[22:17] <GridCube> In fact, i think that 63,38% off all the problems with gmb would go away if clicking on something on the music library sended it to the queue list
[22:18] <GridCube> and never, ever, play from the music library itself
[22:18] <ochosi> really?
[22:18] <GridCube> yes
[22:18] <GridCube> thats what makes gmb confusing
[22:19] <ochosi> i mean that change is actually quite simple to do, but i would find it very confusing :)
[22:19] <GridCube> you dont know where the music is playing from
[22:19] <ochosi> i think we should dig into that more
[22:19] <ochosi> btw, i'll quickly fix the problem with the "Add Music" ;)
[22:19] <GridCube> :D great
[22:20] <ochosi> i just have to change a single digit in our layout
[22:20] <ochosi> do you want to test it?
[22:20] <GridCube> im in windows now, my brother is rendering on autocad
[22:20] <ochosi> oh right
[22:20] <ochosi> np then
[22:20] <GridCube> :)
[22:22] <GridCube> now really, if searching music would just simply search music, and sending the search to the playing list where something automatic then i think that gmb would do just fine
[22:23] <GridCube> you search, you find a disc/artist/genre/singlefile you select it and send it to the queue, then it plays
[22:23] <GridCube> the way gmb does it now, its just weird
[22:23] <ochosi> currently "send it to the queue" == double-middle-click with your mouse | or: right-click and say "enqueue"
[22:23] <ochosi> if you double-click it, it plays the song
[22:23] <GridCube> O_o how you middle clic on a netbook?
[22:24] <GridCube> or on a touchscreen? or where is told that?
[22:24] <ochosi> middle-click can always be emulated by hitting both mouse-buttons at the same time
[22:24] <GridCube> nope, not anymore
[22:24] <GridCube> that was disabled
[22:26] <ochosi> what was disabled?
[22:26] <ochosi> left-click + right-click == middle-click?
[22:27] <GridCube> mmhm
[22:27] <GridCube> yes
[22:27] <ochosi> i mean it's too obscure for everyone to find out
[22:27] <ochosi> i just wanted to tell you this so you have a better time using gmb for now :)
[22:28] <ochosi> maybe it helps if i quickly explain the library concept in gmb
[22:28]  * GridCube is just using clementine lately, its pretty damn good
[22:28] <GridCube> sure do :)
[22:28] <ochosi> sooo
[22:28] <ochosi> you have 3 views
[22:29] <ochosi> simple-list, treeview (with albumcovers) and mosaic (only album-covers, with songlist on middle-click)
[22:29] <ochosi> those 3 work the same way
[22:30] <ochosi> they're just different ways of using the same resource the same way
[22:30] <GridCube> confusing, but ok
[22:30] <ochosi> ok, let's stop here, why is that confusing?
[22:31] <GridCube> i mean, what use does it have to have the mosaic option? how users know what is being played?
[22:31] <GridCube> you double clic on an album cover and then...? 
[22:31] <GridCube> you have no idea what is being played
[22:32] <ochosi> if you double-click an album, that album will be played back
[22:32] <ochosi> that's all
[22:32] <knome> (added to queue)
[22:32] <GridCube> oooo i see, ok
[22:32] <ochosi> if you middle-click, you can see the list of songs in that album
[22:32] <ochosi> if you right-click, you can execute tons of actions on that album
[22:32] <ochosi> it's just intended as a simple way of accessing a full album, instead of having to mark all songs in an album in a list by hand
[22:33] <GridCube> have to admit i never used that, I was too frustrated toward gmb at that point to even try to understand
[22:33] <ochosi> (which can be annoying)
[22:34] <ochosi> ok, so the 3 views are clear?
[22:34] <GridCube> yes I think so
[22:35] <ochosi> ok, then let's proceed
[22:35] <ochosi> the views all show the whole libaray
[22:35] <ochosi> library
[22:35] <GridCube> mmhm
[22:35] <ochosi> unless you use e.g. the search-box in the top-right corner to filter the results
[22:36] <ochosi> by default, it _should_ (and we should look into that if it doesn't) sort and group your music well enough (if the tags are ok) and play back the songs in the order that is displayed
[22:36] <GridCube> (it doesnt)
[22:36] <ochosi> so if you double-click a song, e.g. song nr.2 in your favorite album, the next song should be song nr.3
[22:37] <ochosi> now, gmb has a feature that many players don't have and that can be confusing at first, but extremely useful once you wrapped your head around it:
[22:37] <ochosi> sort-order and play-order are independant
[22:38] <ochosi> so you can e.g. sort your music by "history" (i.e. when did i lasten listen to this album)
[22:38] <ochosi> while playing it back alphabetically
[22:38] <ochosi> or the other way round
[22:38] <ochosi> obviously you can also "sync" play-order and sort-order
[22:38] <GridCube> O_o
[22:38] <ochosi> does that make sense so far?
[22:38] <GridCube> that makes no sense at all
[22:38] <ochosi> ok, where's the problem?
[22:39] <GridCube> so it plays differently from how you see it?
[22:39] <ochosi> (just wondering)
[22:39] <GridCube> you sort things a way, but it still plays however it feels like playing, unless you know how to say it NO play it like this
[22:39] <GridCube> ?
[22:40] <ochosi> it doesn't do that by default
[22:40] <GridCube> mmm
[22:40] <ochosi> but when you change the sort-order (e.g. by clicking a column-header) that doesn't mean that the play-order is also changed accordingly
[22:40] <GridCube> why?
[22:40] <ochosi> (although theoretically we could make it work that way)
[22:41] <GridCube> in any case, this all takes that, it. still. plays. from. the. media. library.
[22:41] <ochosi> yup
[22:41] <ochosi> it does
[22:41] <GridCube> it should not never ever do that
[22:41] <ochosi> i'm not sure i understand?
[22:41] <ochosi> btw, have you ever used itunes?
[22:42] <GridCube> not really
[22:43] <GridCube> maybe once a long time ago
[22:43] <ochosi> ok
[22:43] <ochosi> what players have you used?
[22:43] <GridCube> in windows, winamp, foobar2000, xmplayer, and many other i dont remember now
[22:44] <ochosi> ok
[22:44] <GridCube> in linux, audacious, exaile, clementine, rhythmbox, xmmp, decibel, and many others
[22:44] <ochosi> wow, that's quite a list
[22:45] <ochosi> ok, let's stick with exaile for a second
[22:45] <GridCube> ok
[22:45] <ochosi> if you double-click a song in a list in exaile it plays it back to you
[22:45] <ochosi> the next song will be the one underneath the one you clicked before
[22:45] <GridCube> mmh yes
[22:46] <ochosi> if you set the playmode to "shuffle", it plays all songs in the list in random order
[22:46] <GridCube> but, if you search a song/artist/genre on exaile, it will search, then on double clic it will send the files you, and that means the user, just choosed to the playing list
[22:46] <GridCube> it will NOT play from the music library
[22:47] <GridCube> again, if you choose to shufle you shuffle the files YOU choosed, NOT everything on your media library
[22:47] <ochosi> ok
[22:47] <GridCube> :)
[22:47] <ochosi> a quick hint
[22:47] <ochosi> you can "lock" artists or albums
[22:48] <GridCube> lock?
[22:48] <ochosi> yeah, that means only songs from that album/artist will be played back
[22:48] <GridCube> mmhm
[22:48] <ochosi> no matter what playmode you choose
[22:48] <ochosi> it's very easy/intuitive to activate, once you've found it :)
[22:48] <GridCube> if it needs finding... its not
[22:48] <ochosi> in the playback bar (that is very interactive btw), you see a structure like this:
[22:49] <ochosi> "song-title" << "album" << "artist"
[22:49] <ochosi> if you hover the "<<" it shows a lock
[22:49] <GridCube> I see
[22:49] <ochosi> if you click the "<<" it displays the lock, so...
[22:49] <GridCube> ochosi, let me stop you for a moment here
[22:50] <ochosi> "song-title" $lock "album" << "artist" would mean only songs from that album are played back
[22:50] <ochosi> ok
[22:50] <GridCube> and please dont take this as like i am mad or something, im just trying to pass my sensations to you so you see what happens through my mind right now
[22:51] <ochosi> sure, go ahead
[22:53] <GridCube> good gods
[22:53] <GridCube> ok here it goes again
[22:53] <GridCube> ochosi, im not against all the shiny things that gmb has
[22:53] <GridCube> thats all fine
[22:54] <GridCube> but most people i know. all the people who i've introduced to xubuntu or linux, just dont understand gmb
[22:54] <GridCube> and believe it or not, thats the main reason they ask me to take it away and reinstall windows
[22:54] <knome> if we want to "fix" gmb, you have to specify what's confusing the users
[22:55] <GridCube> i tell them theres anothers players, but they are just tired of trying to uderstand all the quirkiness of them
[22:55] <GridCube> knome, i will scream for a moment here: IT SHOULD NOT PLAY FROM THE MEDIA LIBRARY
[22:55] <knome> doesn't that imply other players have quirks too, not just gmb? :)
[22:55] <GridCube> :P well yes
[22:55] <knome> GridCube, please calm down
[22:56] <GridCube> knome, i am, i just warned you, you know :P
[22:56] <knome> well, does that justify anything?
[22:56] <knome> "warning; i'll kill you in the next 15 secs"
[22:56] <knome> "I TOLD YOU!"
[22:56] <knome> :)
[22:56] <GridCube> not really, but i think i've made that clear before
[22:56] <knome> yes
[22:57] <knome> so did you get some things solved out today with ochosi ?
[22:57] <GridCube> most , if not all, the problems with gmb would go away if it just send your playlist to the queue list
[22:57] <knome> ochosi, wasn't there that "playlist mode" ?
[22:58] <GridCube> all the other stuff, its nice and all, but they all depend on the player using the damn media library as playlist
[22:58] <ochosi> knome: that wouldn't really solve what GridCube's problem seems to be (from my perspective)
[22:58] <GridCube> ochosi, it would really do, because you would know from where the music is being played
[22:59] <knome> GridCube, note that "playlist mode" might not mean what you are expecting.
[22:59] <GridCube> knome, its ok
[22:59] <GridCube> again, im just trying to send to you how my mind feels witha ll this
[22:59] <GridCube> i understand you worked on it, so you understand it better
[22:59] <knome> tbh, we don't need "mind" we need "brain"
[23:00] <knome> i mean not "mind feel" but "mind think" ;)
[23:01] <GridCube> buf if you give gmb to an user that just wants to play musics, they wont want to learn all the gazillion options gmb can have, they just want to be able to search in their music, and play just what they want
[23:01] <GridCube> :) I understood knome 
[23:02] <ochosi> GridCube: just a simple suggestion, have you tried any of the other layouts gmb features?
[23:03] <ochosi> they don't only look differently, they also work differently
[23:03] <GridCube> yes, i've noticed
[23:03] <ochosi> it'd be nice to see whether e.g. exaile works for you
[23:03] <ochosi> it has a "playlist" tab that does what you want (from what i understood)
[23:03] <GridCube> again, I havent really tried them, i dont see the point on using gmb to emulate exaile when i could simply use exaile
[23:04] <ochosi> it's not just emulating exaile
[23:04] <ochosi> it still has all the customizability of exaile plus the features of gmusicbrowser
[23:04] <ochosi> gah
[23:04] <ochosi> i mean: the layout of exaile
[23:04] <ochosi> i'm getting tired
[23:05] <GridCube> ochosi, but the features of gmb are the things i don't like about gmb
[23:05] <GridCube> :/
[23:05] <ochosi> ok, i'm too tired for this today, let's continue some other time
[23:05] <GridCube> ok don't worry, i think im not making any sense anyway
[23:06] <knome> i think the next thing we need to do is to gather a list of features we really need for the default media player
[23:06] <knome> and forget gmb, exaile and everything else
[23:06] <knome> just thing what we want
[23:06] <knome> *think
[23:06] <GridCube> ok
[23:06] <GridCube> :)
[23:06] <GridCube> lets do that
[23:06] <knome> this should have been the first step anyway
[23:06] <ochosi> knome: so you consider "improving gmb" failed?
[23:06] <knome> well, i'm quite tired too
[23:06] <ochosi> just asking because those seemed to be the two options
[23:06] <GridCube> knome, i didnt meant now
[23:06] <knome> ochosi, i'm not sure if you two can sort it out ;)
[23:07] <knome> i'm all in for "fixing gmb"
[23:07] <GridCube> ochosi, I don't think so, again if gmb would send what you searched to a now playing list, most issues with it would go away
[23:07] <ochosi> GridCube: some layouts do that
[23:07] <knome> ochosi, well, if you have time to continue on the issue
[23:07] <knome> i'm not too much help, since i don't know the playlist-stuff too well
[23:08] <GridCube> but that option doesnt seem an option because theres a gazillion things that apparently you can only do while on the playing media library mode, as you where explaining me earlier
[23:08] <knome> just note that we don't have unlimited time, if we want to do the change this cycle
[23:08] <ochosi> tbh i think now is the worst of times to decide on whether to continue or not, it's getting late and at least 2/3 are tired
[23:08] <knome> ^ we need to test the new player too if we want to switch
[23:08] <knome> i don't need an answer now
[23:09] <knome> just saying that you realize the reality too ;)
[23:09] <GridCube> ochosi, i agree, lets talk again on saturday or sunday ok?
[23:09] <ochosi> GridCube: i'm away on the weekend
[23:09] <GridCube> ok
[23:09] <ochosi> next week then
[23:09] <GridCube> no problem
[23:09] <GridCube> as you wish, or if you see me online just ping me
[23:09] <ochosi> but really, it is necessary that you give gmb a second chance if you don't just want to search for a new default player
[23:09] <knome> can you schedule it on the ML so others can possible take part too?
[23:10] <GridCube> sure
[23:10] <ochosi> knome: no, i think we should first try to settle it between us, if that works we can include others
[23:10] <ochosi> if it doesn't, you guys can search for a new player :)
[23:11] <knome> ochosi, well, that's what i meant, but please do it so others will know when you're working on it
[23:12] <ochosi> GridCube: and by giving it a second chance i mean: actively trying it out again and trying to get it to act as you want. because i'm _certain_ there's a layout that does what you want
[23:12] <GridCube> ochosi, knome, in any case, thanks for all the problems you are taking with this, i really think is a very important thing when introducing new people to xubuntu(or all the linuxverse)
[23:12] <GridCube> ochosi, will do
[23:12] <ochosi> GridCube: then i can maybe understand your points better
[23:12] <ochosi> and we get a step closer to sorting this
[23:13] <GridCube> ok :)
[23:13] <ochosi> also: keep in mind that if you understand gmb better, you'll be better at showing it to other people ;)
[23:13] <GridCube> :P
[23:13] <ochosi> i'm not saying this because i'm blaming anything on you
[23:13] <knome> also, you kind of have to know gmb well to be able to compare it too
[23:13] <ochosi> i'm just saying it, because so far we haven't had _any_ complaints about gmusicbrowser in that respect from any review
[23:14] <GridCube> i didnt take any blame (im not the only xubuntu user that first of all purges gmb away anyway)
[23:14] <ochosi> knome: +1
[23:14] <ochosi> i also purge away quite a few of our default apps
[23:14] <ochosi> but i don't moan about it because i know that many others cope well with it
[23:14] <ochosi> e.g. thunderbird :}
[23:15] <GridCube> yes, but if you dont complain, then stuff never changes
[23:15] <GridCube> :P
[23:15] <GridCube> its like politics
[23:15] <knome> true.
[23:15] <knome> otoh, we should be making best default choices for *our users* not the developers
[23:15] <ochosi> exactly, otherwise i'd have strived to push claws-mail as default mail client far harder :p
[23:16] <knome> (that's a bit weird in a way, to choose something that's not ideal for you, but.. yeah)
[23:16] <knome> though i'm quite happy with the current default apps
[23:16] <ochosi> yeah, it's a bit weird, but it has to be that way
[23:16] <ochosi> yeah, overall i'm happy too
[23:16] <ochosi> i think the distro works well
[23:16] <GridCube> (again, if you are involved on something that makes it easier for you, that doesnt means other would find it as easy or "obvious"
[23:16] <ochosi> i have enough friends i "maintain"
[23:17] <knome> GridCube, of course.
[23:17] <ochosi> GridCube: nobody said that :)
[23:17] <GridCube> i remember windows 98, when you started it a HUGE arrow appeared ont he "panel" area pointing to the Star button and said "Click here to start using your programs"
[23:18] <GridCube> it was dumb easy to see it, but hey, people like that
[23:18] <ochosi> yeah, that's why we don't replace thunderbird with claws-mail
[23:18] <GridCube> its not that people is dumb, but a default program should be thinked for dumb people
[23:19] <GridCube> huge arrows, pointing to the places you should see, and things happening with your knowledge
[23:19] <GridCube> if you want fancier stuff, you will search for them
[23:20] <GridCube> you could enable the "dumb skin" for gmb, and then the "pro skin" and add all those stuffs like playing from the media library and whatnot
[23:21] <ochosi> GridCube: darn it that is exactly what i implied by "try other layouts like exaile" !!! :D
[23:21] <GridCube> yes, but i have to dumb it up, instead of smart it up!
[23:21] <GridCube> :D
[23:21] <knome> the exaile layout -> gmb for dummies
[23:21] <knome> GridCube, well, that's because you are.. nevermind. :)
[23:21] <knome> (just kidding)
[23:22] <GridCube> :P i know
[23:22] <ochosi> yeah, there are a few more layouts that are "for dummies"
[23:22] <knome> ochosi, but maybe that's a good idea. do a *REALLY SIMPLE* layout.
[23:22] <ochosi> GridCube: ok, final suggestion: you test layouts of gmb _until_ you find one that works ok for you, then we talk again about how to (1) either switch to a different layout by default or (2) improve the current default
[23:23] <GridCube> yes, but they are not the default ochosi, you have to thinker with the program to find them out, if you are already frustrated with a program, and you just want to listen music, you wont go around searching for "more" options
[23:23] <ochosi> arrrrrr
[23:23] <ochosi> we can set the default to whatever we want
[23:23] <GridCube> ok
[23:23] <ochosi> so all of them are the potential default look of gmb :)
[23:23] <GridCube> :)
[23:24] <ochosi> you should've seen it before we started working on it
[23:24] <GridCube> ok, that makes sense
[23:24] <ochosi> it was a complete mess
[23:24] <ochosi> no-one used it because it was rather cluttered
[23:24] <ochosi> it was a process of ~half a year to get to that default layout
[23:26] <GridCube> I understand
[23:27] <ochosi> at the time it took me approx 1hour to make a layout in gmusicbrowser that would work and look like your favorite player
[23:27] <ochosi> but the cool thing about it isn't mimicking other players
[23:27] <ochosi> it's that you can easily go beyond that
[23:29] <GridCube> ochosi, yes, again i understand that, it might go the same way foobar2000 people like to reshape their players and what not, costumization is a huge plus, but then again, most people is just happy with a music player that just plays music
[23:29] <knome> well, gmb just plays music.
[23:29] <knome> just not the way you want
[23:29]  * knome hides
[23:29] <GridCube> :P
[23:31] <GridCube> knome meant to say: just not the one you want
[23:31]  * GridCube hides
[23:31] <knome> well, you said "a music player that just plays music" ...
[23:31] <knome> not "... plays the music you want"
[23:32]  * GridCube though that was implied
[23:32] <GridCube> maybe thats where we cant connect
[23:32] <knome> definitely not.
[23:32] <knome> well, gmb plays the music i want, when i add it to the queue. problem solved :)
[23:32] <GridCube> a music player that doesnt play the music you want to hear
[23:33] <GridCube> thats should be the tagline for gmb then
[23:33] <knome> i'm thinking you are being unfair again
[23:33] <knome> that's totally not constructive
[23:33] <knome> with that attitude, you're never going to finish the spec
[23:34] <GridCube> knome, but again, you play something, go to shuffle, and its not playing what you searched anymore...
[23:34] <GridCube> :( i don't see why thats so hard to understand
[23:34] <knome> it's not hard to understand
[23:34] <knome> i understand it
[23:34] <knome> but there is other ways to achieve the same thing
[23:34] <knome> but you are just flaming against gmb
[23:35] <knome> i understand your point very well - but you don't want to understand what we are saying with ochosi 
[23:35] <GridCube> knome, i am not, im just frustrated at it, because it does things without saying why, it plays music you dont see...
[23:35] <knome> yes, you are
[23:36] <GridCube> knome, no, sincerily i dont see
[23:36] <knome> 02:32  GridCube: a music player that doesnt play the music you want to hear
[23:36] <knome> 02:33  GridCube: thats should be the tagline for gmb then
[23:36] <knome> what is that if not flaming?
[23:36] <GridCube> knome, yes, that was a joke
[23:36] <knome> with all respect, do you think that is going to take you anywhere?
[23:36] <GridCube> no, not really
[23:37] <knome> the thing is; you can make gmb play the music you want, it's just not happening as you are expecting
[23:38] <knome> i understand that this is making you frustrated, but i don't think it justifies for the jokes and other negative comments about gmb
[23:38] <GridCube> well... yes?
[23:39] <GridCube> knome, it does things behind you, it plays music you dont see, thats the problem, thats the major problem, if it would simply send what is playing to a now playing list, everything else would not matter
[23:39] <GridCube> knome, im trying to explain myself in the most constructive way here
[23:40] <knome> yeah, i understand that
[23:40] <knome> i'm just wondering why nobody else has given us negative feedback on that issue?
[23:40] <GridCube> they simply use another player?
[23:40] <knome> it might very well be the showkiller for you, but is it really for the majority of our users?
[23:41] <GridCube> knome, i can sincerily say i dont know
[23:41] <ochosi> leave it be for now
[23:42] <ochosi> i mean this discussion
[23:42] <ochosi> we can talk after the weekend, after GridCube tried other layouts etc
[23:42] <knome> yup.
[23:42] <GridCube> ok
[23:42] <GridCube> :)
[23:43] <knome> GridCube, just try to cut down on the jokes when we're disussing this matter - because i don't always know if you are serious or not
[23:43] <GridCube> ok
[23:43] <ochosi> (or add enough smilies)
[23:43] <GridCube> my bad
[23:43] <knome> that's the downside of irc, i can't really observe your expressions
[23:43] <ochosi> the upside is: i don't have to see your face! :D
[23:44] <GridCube> i could send a mail to the mailing list in users, asking for feedback of users on gmb asking if they use it or not?
[23:44] <GridCube> (i've seen that -users do have a pretty active base)
[23:44] <ochosi> if you formulate it nicely and _very_ neutral, then i can imagine that would work
[23:45] <GridCube> ok, will try that
[23:45] <ochosi> you can also first send it to knome and he can tell you whether there's "a tone" :)
[23:46] <knome> that works
[23:46] <knome> i can proofread it if you send it to me before monday
[23:46] <knome> i'm possibly away from mon-thu next week (so probably not at the meeting, again)
[23:49] <GridCube> knome, ill pm you now :)
[23:49] <knome> k