[04:01] <pleia2> have the alt images been tested? I'm having trouble (with the image from the 21st, the tracker updated right after I downloaded it :P)
[04:07] <pleia2> I'll run again on a VM tomorrow when more people are awake and I can copy the install package errors into a bug report
[09:32] <astraljava> pleia2: I intend to test them as well, I'm afraid not many of the images have been tested.
[09:43] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I read the QA stuff the other day - am I right in thinking that the tests I did shoudl have been fails as far as balloons is concerned
[09:56] <ochosi> astraljava: how familiar are you with c/gtk?
[09:59] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes, you are. That's why I mentioned it on the meeting; whenever a step in the testcase fails, the whole test is marked as failed.
[09:59] <astraljava> ochosi: I know C better than GTK, but not a complete stranger to that one either.
[09:59] <ochosi> ok
[09:59] <ochosi> i just have a quick question
[09:59] <ochosi> look at indicator-sound's source here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/indicator-sound/precise/view/head:/src/volume-widget.c#L101
[09:59] <ochosi> that's where it sets the icons cornering the gtk-scale
[10:00] <ochosi> from what i gather, it should prefer a 16px icon, because it sets GTK_ICON_SIZE_MENU
[10:01] <ochosi> since our panel is 22px high, it should be possible to use different icons for the volume-indicator in the panel and the icons in the sound-menu, right?
[10:02] <astraljava> Oh totally, but I need to poke around a bit to see how exactly.
[10:02]  * astraljava just woke up, and had weird metaphorical dreams about his own past life
[10:02] <astraljava> I shoulda known better to engage to this deeply analytical discussion with my brother last night.
[10:03] <ochosi> (specifically, i want to fix this: http://imagebin.org/217441 )
[10:03] <ochosi> hehe
[10:03] <ochosi> we have the same problem with the nm-applet
[10:03] <ochosi> we need a bright icon in the panel and dark icons in the menu ideally
[10:04] <astraljava> Err... I must have sleep dust in my eyes, still, but what's wrong with that image?
[10:05] <ochosi> ok, maybe it's not such a big problem as i assumed :}
[10:05] <ochosi> the volume-icons cornering the gtk-scale for the volume are bright!!!
[10:05] <ochosi> ;)
[10:05] <astraljava> Ahh... you're right.
[10:05] <ochosi> if i don't fix it, bluesabre will spam me with bugreports in 12.10 again :)
[10:05] <astraljava> Now that you mention it, they do kinda suck.
[10:05] <ochosi> awwh
[10:06] <astraljava> Heheh. :D
[10:06] <ochosi> man!
[10:06] <ochosi> ok, off for lunch, bbiab
[10:06] <astraljava> Sorry, I mean "they are white, man! make the darker!!"
[10:06] <astraljava> ;)
[11:15] <ochosi> astraljava: almost there: http://imagebin.org/217445
[11:16] <astraljava> Whee! Better. :)
[11:16] <ochosi> now, i have to improve the padding
[11:16] <ochosi> then it's fixed i guess
[11:18] <astraljava> Cool.
[11:23] <ochosi> lucky for us, elementary have the same problem, so maybe we can simply pull their workaround
[11:23] <ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/elementaryicons/+bug/1015485
[11:24] <astraljava> "It is clear that non-Canonical backed images simply can not support a rolling-QA testing plan, and depend on the milestones system." - Anyone willing to discuss this line with me?
[11:24] <ochosi> sry, gotta go
[11:25] <ochosi> have a nice weekend everyone!
[11:25] <astraljava> Thanks, you too! :)
[11:25] <ochosi> see y'all on monday :)
[11:58] <knome> ochosi, hf
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, what's to discuss?
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, if we want to go that way, we just need more testers
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, i don't think that would mean *much* more, but more
[11:59] <astraljava> knome: What makes you think we'd need more testers?
[12:00] <knome> currently, the situation is kind of hard because the small amount of testers burn them out on milestones
[12:00] <knome> because people can't be around all the time
[12:00] <astraljava> That's really my point.
[12:00] <astraljava> Are milestones really, actually, beneficial?
[12:00] <astraljava> Testers are burnt out on early milestones, and might not even appear anymore during the most important times.
[12:01] <knome> i think there are pros to milestones too
[12:01] <astraljava> I've seen this happen.
[12:01] <astraljava> Sure there are. But would this change really be that bad that many people make it seem to?
[12:02] <knome> hmm.
[12:02] <knome> i think it would be harder to *start* testing
[12:02] <knome> right now, there are specific times when testing is *certainly* needed
[12:02] <astraljava> If we think of it from the Xfce4-side. How often can we even predict that important changes can be scheduled for milestones, anyway?
[12:03] <astraljava> Yeah, I'm not disputing that.
[12:03] <knome> if ubuntu goes the non-milestone way, can't we then schedule our own milestones?
[12:03] <knome> say, publish both one alpha and one beta, when we are ready to
[12:03] <astraljava> Yes, of course we can.
[12:03] <astraljava> Right.
[12:03] <astraljava> So again, I'm not seeing this change as such a bad thing, really.
[12:04] <knome> that would bring us the good from the more relaxed (non-time-based) scheduling, but also leave us with the benefits from milestones
[12:04] <knome> me neither.
[12:04] <knome> but i'm not sure what the correct way towards non-milestone testing would be
[12:04] <astraljava> Ok, good. I thought I was going insane with this. I don't mean I already am not. :)
[12:04] <knome> reorganizing users doesn't happen overnight
[12:04] <knome> and i think it IS good that we have some kind of milestones
[12:05] <astraljava> No, it doesn't. We just have to be more active, and market the needs in beforehand.
[12:05] <knome> but i'm not saying we should define how many/when
[12:05] <knome> i'm thinking it makes sense to have milestones for example when you introduce a new default app
[12:05] <astraljava> Yep. It doesn't necessarily serve us that well, the vanilla schedule, that is.
[12:06] <astraljava> Sure. The independence would actually benefit _our_ QA much better.
[12:07] <knome> that does mean that there needs to be somebody responsible for the QA who knows where the team is going
[12:07] <knome> of course, you are here now, but for the future too, when situations might change
[12:07] <astraljava> That's true.
[12:07] <astraljava> The coordination becomes much more important.
[12:08] <astraljava> But I intend to develop some processes so that it isn't too dependent on just one person.
[12:08] <knome> great.
[12:08] <knome> do we need to inform somebody if we switch to any other scheduling than now?
[12:09] <knome> the other question i have is that will the QA tracker support making a specific iso a "milestone", eg. not showing up as daily
[12:09] <astraljava> I think we should chat with Nick before we make any permanent changes.
[12:09] <astraljava> That's a good point, and again I'd like a word with him and jibel and whoever's involved with that.
[12:10] <knome> yes, that sounds like a plan
[12:10] <knome> if possible, involve me and our testers
[12:11] <astraljava> Yes of course.
[12:11] <astraljava> I won't be doing any decisions myself, certainly not on matters of this magnitude. :)
[12:12] <hobgoblin> astraljava: what time is this meeting on sunday for the ones like me ? 
[12:13] <knome> well of course. that needs to be escalated to the community meeting for sure, but i don't think it's bad to involve community even in the investigating/just-wondering-if -stage
[12:14] <astraljava> knome: Yeah, well even if everyone cannot be there at the same time, I'd like to introduce the fruits of the initial chatter to the team before we even make any decisions. I believe we will nevertheless introduce this change for the next cycle, anyway.
[12:15] <astraljava> hobgoblin: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Xubuntu+QA+meeting&iso=20120624T16&ah=2
[12:15] <knome> astraljava, right'o. keep me informed :)
[12:15] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Are you on the mailing lists?
[12:16] <astraljava> knome: I will.
[12:16] <hobgoblin> astraljava: cool thanks - yes I am - but I forget to remember what I've read 
[12:17] <hobgoblin> and I deleted a whole bunch in the week following my isp issues
[12:17] <astraljava> "forget to remember"
[12:17] <astraljava> That's a nice phrase.
[12:17] <hobgoblin> :)
[12:17] <astraljava> Sure. The archives can be found at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2012-June/ and similar for -devel, of course.
[12:18] <hobgoblin> cheers
[12:18] <astraljava> Well, that's for June, obviously. Just go up one directory for the whole of it.
[12:18] <hobgoblin> :)
[14:07] <mr_pouit> knome: no, we can't schedule our milestones (well, we can schedule them, but not release them). For example, we need someone from Canonical to relaunch an iso build. If ubiquity is broken that particular day, we can't release a good image, etc.
[14:18] <knome> mr_pouit, yeah, sure
[14:19] <knome> mr_pouit, but does that imply any daily can't be set as "milestone" in the QA traker?
[14:19] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Well sure, but they don't normally require a milestone for a rebuild, do they?
[15:17] <mr_pouit> knome: I don't know the qa tracker very well :P (but I guess we can say: today iso is good, let's call it alpha-beta-gamme-awesome-2)
[15:17] <mr_pouit> astraljava: yeah, if you poke the right people, they can do a rebuild anytime it seems
[15:17] <hobgoblin> good - does that mean I don't need to do any daily tests :)
[15:21] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, I think what we'd want to achieve is announce that we're going to call certain date's ISO our milestone well in advance, like maybe 4 weeks ahead or something. Then we could advertise it and appeal to testers early enough.
[15:21] <astraljava> hobgoblin: CERTAINLY NOT!
[15:22] <hobgoblin> bah humbug :p
[15:22] <hobgoblin> astraljava: so did you read what I said earlier abotu the QA meeting - should I mark them as pass or fail lol 
[15:22] <astraljava> As punishment for your foolery, I command you to run 30 amd64 desktops and 20 i386 alternates.
[15:23] <astraljava> hobgoblin: I thought I responded already; it'd be a fail, as any points in the testcase cause the whole test to fail.
[15:24] <hobgoblin> ok - then all my passes were in fact all fails then 
[15:29] <hobgoblin> not been brave enough to do any autoresizes yet though - I'd need to disconnect my real drives I think lol 
[15:32] <astraljava> Hehe. Come now, what could possibly go wrong?
[15:32] <astraljava> *blink* *blink*
[15:33] <hobgoblin> LOL
[16:01] <GridCube> knome ping
[16:03] <GridCube> well anayway, knome, i finally could open http://typewith.me/p/Ew1RtC2xCS i think its fine so im sending that to the -users list
[16:04] <GridCube> under the subject: gmusicbrowser users feedback request
[16:32] <pleia2> so, 2 problems with alt, one means I can't complete the install, anyone around to look or help me submit the bug reports? (I don't know what to file them against)
[16:32] <astraljava> pleia2: I'll try.
[16:32] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail1.jpg is the first
[16:32] <pleia2> if I select "continue" it's ok
[16:33] <pleia2> I probably should have looked at the console at that point to get more info, I can run again, this happens pretty early in the install
[16:33] <astraljava> Alright. If you could do that, great. The installer logs should be available as well in /var/log/installer/ or something like that, anyway.
[16:34] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail2.jpg is the fatal one
[16:34] <pleia2> console: http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
[16:34] <hobgoblin> is there a way to use usb's for alternates? 
[16:34] <astraljava> Oh right, it didn't finish at all. :)
[16:34] <hobgoblin> I tried and gave up 
[16:34] <astraljava> hobgoblin: unetbootin
[16:35] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Oh, sorry, no.
[16:35] <hobgoblin> did that - boots fine and then goes looking for the cd just after the start 
[16:35] <hobgoblin> aah ok :)
[16:35] <astraljava> hobgoblin: It wants to use the cd drive for some reason.
[16:35] <hobgoblin> :)
[16:35] <pleia2> there is stuff in /var/log/syslog, I'll see if I can copy that somewhere
[16:36] <knome> mr_pouit, well yeah, that's what i meant about "scheduling (our own) milestones" (calling a specific daily something else than daily)
[16:38] <astraljava> knome: mr_pouit: You might wanna check out today's release meeting's logs, and the continuing discussion regarding on #ubuntu-release.
[16:38] <Sysi> at least 12.04 alternate images boot fine from usb when pushed there with dd
[16:39] <pleia2> hm, I don't actually know how I should go about getting this syslog off this virtualbox
[16:39] <pleia2> it's on the network, but doesn't seem to have any useful tools for moving a file across it
[16:40] <GridCube> pleia2: send the files to you by mail 
[16:40] <pleia2> it doesn't have a mail client
[16:40] <pleia2> no mail, scp, ftp
[16:40] <GridCube> o.. correct
[16:40] <knome> astraljava, i think it's best if one of us uses the time to follow the discussion, and when they seem to get somewhere with it, point the rest with a summary
[16:41] <knome> astraljava, if you are willing to do that, great :)
[16:41] <astraljava> Oh sure, I just thought if you wanted to, as well.
[16:41] <knome> not really, if the disussion level is what is has been :|
[16:42] <knome> +c too
[16:43] <pleia2> I guess I'll just copy it to a place on disk and then mount the vdi
[16:44] <astraljava> pleia2: I'm trying to find how one could get the logs over a http interface, at least there used to be that option at some point.
[16:45] <GridCube> ... (can't you mount a pendrive and paste stuff there?)
[16:48] <pleia2> astraljava: I got it this way, no worries
[16:48] <astraljava> Ok cool.
[16:49] <pleia2> so, where to file these against?
[16:49] <astraljava> We'd need more info about the problems _from the logs_ before we could tell. :)
[16:49] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg is the logs
[16:49] <astraljava> Can you pastebin them?
[16:49] <pleia2> yeah
[16:49] <astraljava> Thanks.
[16:50] <pleia2> hmm, darn
[16:50] <astraljava> I'll look for the package issue from the buildd logs, there should be something there. What date
[16:50] <pleia2> ok, let me try this again
[16:50] <astraljava> 's iso was  this?
[16:50] <pleia2> 22, just grabbed it a half hour ago
[16:50] <astraljava> Ok, thanks.
[16:51] <pleia2> 64-bit alt
[16:52]  * pleia2 tries to get this syslog again
[16:52] <astraljava> Package libavcodec-extra-53 blacklisted in ship-live but seeded in desktop (libgegl-0.2-0)
[16:52] <astraljava> Wonder what that means.
[16:54] <pleia2> hopefully it means you found the problem :)
[16:55] <astraljava> libavcodec cannot be shipped on CDs (c.f. Ubuntu technical board resolution 2007-01-02).
[16:55] <astraljava> micahg: Do you know anything about this? ^^
[17:01] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_syslog is the full syslog from the install
[17:10] <knome> hey pleia2 :)
[17:11] <pleia2> hello knome 
[17:13] <astraljava> pleia2: No, that's not it. libavcodec53 should satisfy the depends, so it's something that it depends instead.
[17:13] <pleia2> ok, well I should probably submit the bug in an event, so..where?
[17:23] <astraljava> Let me ask a few questions.
[17:24]  * knome just opened the rum bottle, so if they are for me, be quick
[17:26] <astraljava> No, not on this channel, silly.
[17:27] <pleia2> I'll be around all day (but at work) so just pleia2: me if you need me to run a test again or anything
[17:27] <astraljava> But yeah, just realized there's a wildcard in the blacklisting entry, so libavcodec53 isn't on the cd either.
[17:27] <astraljava> Which begs the question, how does gimp get installed in the first place?
[17:28] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Do you have an instance running? If so, then did you add gimp after the installation? If not, then can you check if it's there?
[17:30] <hobgoblin> I don't - I will next time though 
[17:30] <knome> astraljava, wait, why wouldn't gimp be installed?
[17:30] <hobgoblin> gimp is not something I would normally install 
[17:31] <astraljava> knome: Cause gimp depends on libgegl-0.2-0, which depends on libavcodec53, which isn't on the cd because it's blacklisted.
[17:32] <micahg> astraljava: AIUI, the issue is more with pressed images than downloadable ones
[17:32] <astraljava> micahg: Ahh... so the ship and ship-live seeds don't take account on the dailies at all?
[17:33] <knome> astraljava, i thought blacklisting would allow us not to install specific packages, but wouldn't "break" other packages that depends on them
[17:33] <micahg> astraljava: we were discussing removing the gegl dep on libav (it's the only thing holding it in main ATM)
[17:33] <micahg> knome: it won't break if it's not needed :)
[17:33] <micahg> in this case, it's needed if buitl with the support AIUI
[17:33] <knome> aha, i see
[17:37]  * astraljava needs to make the whole image creation process clear for good, this is driving him insane
[17:43] <pleia2> in the tracker, how do we see results from past days?
[17:51] <knome> pleia2, i suppose you don't
[17:52] <pleia2> heh :)
[17:52] <astraljava> I was thinking you could use the xml-rpc API for it, but am not sure, I'm still in the process of writing the python scripts for it.
[17:52] <pleia2> I looked through http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects to find the bugs I'm seeing in 64-bit Desktop
[17:53] <pleia2> would be nice to see hobgoblin's bug reports from yesterday so I could see if they still exist
[17:53] <pleia2> http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1010487 is a fun one
[17:53] <astraljava> Did he download our Satanic Edition?
[17:53] <knome> pleia2, poke stgraber.
[17:54] <pleia2> astraljava: I'm getting this too
[17:54] <astraljava> bah
[17:54] <pleia2> black on black makes the ubiquity interesting to use
[17:54] <pleia2> possible, but pretty awful
[17:54] <astraljava> Just a bit of challenge. C'mon...
[17:54] <pleia2> :)
[17:57] <pleia2> so, after I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopWhole do I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation and/or our /Short?
[17:57] <hobgoblin> pleia2: if you have udisks2 installed then 2 of the bugs will nto be there :)
[17:57] <pleia2> so far nothing causes it to "fail" for me
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1014635
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/870297
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1014632
[17:57] <knome> pleia2, our "/Short" is always "in addition"
[17:57] <hobgoblin> those pleia2 ^^
[17:58] <pleia2> hobgoblin: thank you :)
[17:58] <pleia2> knome: gotcha
[17:58] <pleia2> udisks2?
[18:02] <pleia2> oh, so, gimp installs ok on the regular Desktop CD
[18:02]  * astraljava grumbles
[18:04] <pleia2> it's a default app, so I didn't need to specially install it or anything
[18:06] <astraljava> Ok, so there's some reason then why it isn't on the alternate, or one of its dependencies isn't. Gotta look for those next.
[18:17] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212-shutdown.jpg does not have beauiful shutdown options, is this lightdm issue or some theme?
[18:18] <knome> madnick, ^ ?
[18:29] <pleia2> ok, I'll hold off on filing this until I know and just submit the iso tracker thingy without it
[18:29] <pleia2> oh, duh, on this screen it shows "Bugs to look for List of bugs that were previously reported for this testcase." 
[18:31] <knome> pleia2, heh. yeah, change for this release :)
[18:34] <pleia2> I should submit a failed test for the Alt image, but will need to submit the bugs against something first
[19:50] <mr_pouit> pleia2: changes in gtk3 theming
[19:50] <mr_pouit> you can file a bug against shimmer-themes
[19:53] <pleia2> thanks!
[19:53] <mr_pouit> (but I guess ochosi will wait for gtk to be stabilized anyway, otherwise he'd have to redo the theme each week...)
[20:25] <micahg> gtk stabilize?   probably won't happen until they're focused on gtk4 :P
[20:25] <pleia2> lol
[20:26] <pleia2> micahg: you're brilliant! what do I file this against? (installing packages fails in alt installer): http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
[20:26] <pleia2> I have the syslog so I can copy it properly into a report
[20:27] <micahg> pleia2: was that a general approbation or based on the comment i just made? :)
[20:28] <pleia2> hah, general
[20:28]  * micahg sees if gimp's installable :)
[20:28] <pleia2> it works fine on the desktop images
[20:28] <pleia2> just not in alt
[20:28] <micahg> oh, yeah, because the file is missing on the image
[20:29] <micahg> xubuntu-meta, this was discussed a bit earlier, has to do with libav not being on images
[20:30] <micahg> pleia2: ^^
[20:30] <pleia2> ok thanks