[14:34] <hobgoblin> anyone awake and got a minute :)
[14:36] <holstein> hobgoblin: i got a minute... maybe 5
[14:36] <holstein> whats up?
[14:36] <hobgoblin> if grub fails during an install - do I file bug against grub or ubiquity? :)
[14:37] <hobgoblin> well it installs but to the wrong drive :)
[14:37] <holstein> good question...
[14:37] <hobgoblin> LOL
[14:37] <holstein> i would think grub for that
[14:37] <hobgoblin> okey doke 
[14:37] <knome> i'd say ubiquity... :)
[14:37] <holstein> since its installing but grub is putting it in an unexpected place or whatever
[14:37] <knome> because ubiquity tells grub what to do
[14:38] <holstein> yeah... thats a very good point
[14:38] <holstein> which one is failing
[14:38] <knome> if it should be against grub, someone more knowledgeable will move it anyway
[14:38] <hobgoblin> knome: okey doke :)
[14:39] <hobgoblin> I'm of the opinion that it's critical - in this case I already had grub from 12.04 in sda so it booted, but the whole drive install to sdc put grub in sdb for some reason
[14:39] <hobgoblin> knome: ^^ what do you think?
[14:39] <knome> yes, it's critical
[14:39] <hobgoblin> k
[14:40] <hobgoblin> just going to do one more daily then that's it for today 
[14:40] <hobgoblin> back later
[14:40] <knome> hf
[14:40] <hobgoblin> :)
[14:40] <holstein> \o/
[15:56] <pleia2> astraljava: around? I'll be a few minutes late, have a couple of things to take care of before meeting
[15:58] <astraljava> pleia2: Yeah I'm around. I'm very unprepared, though, I have some pressing issues that require my attention, but let's see how it goes.
[15:59] <pleia2> ok, I'll be back soon
[16:00] <hobgoblin> astraljava: r/l trumps everything :)
[16:00] <astraljava> Yes it does. And the issues being in a totally new professional field, they _really_ consume all available time.
[16:01] <astraljava> Right, so was there someone here for the QA meeting?
[16:02] <astraljava> Let's have a show of hands.
[16:02] <hobgoblin> well I'm here 
[16:03] <hobgoblin> pretty sure one of those who were here last week said they'd be missing 
[16:03] <astraljava> I seem to recall something to that effect too.
[16:04] <hobgoblin> both are missing :)
[16:04] <astraljava> Let's give it a few more minutes. Unless we get any more traffic, I'm going to postpone this.
[16:04] <hobgoblin> k
[16:05] <hobgoblin> I've only really got one question anyway 
[16:06] <hobgoblin> hi Os_Maleus 
[16:06] <Os_Maleus> hi hobgoblin!
[16:09] <hobgoblin> astraljava: so 2 and you now 
[16:09] <astraljava> Oh right.
[16:09] <astraljava> Hi Os_Maleus, you're here for the QA meeting?
[16:09] <hobgoblin> but I've no problem with whatever 
[16:11] <Os_Maleus> yes, that one I am.
[16:13] <astraljava> Ok, cool. Let's give it a few minutes, my right hand (she's often called pleia2) said she's gonna be a few minutes late. I'll use that time to quickly glance over last meeting's minutes, and you can prepare some questions I'm sure were left hanging after the last session.
[16:13] <Os_Maleus> from my side, the things are clear. 
[16:14] <hobgoblin> only got the one question at the moment 
[16:14] <Os_Maleus> just listening a bit around. perhaps I am hearing some new stuffs. :-)
[16:15] <hobgoblin> yea - questions can arise then :)
[16:16] <pleia2> ok, back :)
[16:17] <hobgoblin> wb :)
[16:17] <pleia2> I have a few questions
[16:17] <pleia2> first is for hobgoblin!
[16:17] <astraljava> Let's have the questions piled up until now first.
[16:17] <hobgoblin> I would just like a definitive on whether a daily test is a fail if anything from the short list fails. 
[16:18] <astraljava> hobgoblin: That one is a firm yes.
[16:18] <hobgoblin> k - thanks :)
[16:18] <pleia2> how fail does it have to fail? I couldn't precisely match up hobgoblin's bugs with very specific things on the short list (maybe I missed them though)
[16:19] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Testers need not to worry about whether it feels right or not. The testcase authors have to make sure the cases are logical and really required, and also worded right.
[16:19] <pleia2> (and actually, this was my question)
[16:19] <astraljava> That does not mean that you couldn't suggest changes to the testcases.
[16:19] <hobgoblin> I might have a suggestion for testcases 
[16:20] <astraljava> But as a rule of thumb, while doing the testing, you follow it to the point, and if anything goes wrong, the test is marked as failed.
[16:20] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Sure, let's wait for those until later, though.
[16:20] <hobgoblin> ok
[16:20] <astraljava> Thanks for a good question! Anything else?
[16:20] <hobgoblin> not from me
[16:21] <astraljava> Os_Maleus? pleia2? Anyone else?
[16:21] <pleia2> I guess my question is which of hobgoblin's tests where on the Short list
[16:22] <hobgoblin> the fails?
[16:22] <pleia2> I think one was a USB one
[16:22] <pleia2> yeah
[16:22] <hobgoblin> yea - that has been a consistent fail - all of my tests had that
[16:22] <hobgoblin> the fix is on the way though I believe
[16:22] <astraljava> For Xubuntu, this should be fixed in tomorrow's images.
[16:23] <hobgoblin> good
[16:23] <pleia2> does it mount the disk, thunar just doesn't allow browsing?
[16:23] <hobgoblin> dmesg sees it - but nothing else
[16:24] <astraljava> You can track the progress of it on bug #1014632
[16:24] <hobgoblin> the test doesn;t include installing udisks2 and rebooting
[16:24] <pleia2> oh, I thought we were talking about 1017076
[16:24] <pleia2> err
[16:24] <Os_Maleus> astraljava: like told before: I was just signed in automatically here to listen around what news I am hearing and to catch up some ways to solve those. 
[16:24] <pleia2> 1011917
[16:25] <astraljava> bug #1011917
[16:25] <hobgoblin> same bug I think pleia2 
[16:25] <hobgoblin> it'll be fixed iwth udisks2 if that is the cause of 1014632
[16:25] <pleia2> hobgoblin: does it show up in "mount"?
[16:25] <hobgoblin> nope
[16:25] <astraljava> Seems a dupe.
[16:25] <pleia2> ok cool, that was my main worry
[16:25] <Os_Maleus> astraljava: otherwise, I am fighting around with some kind of pneumonia. for which there is no solution offered here, I guess. 
[16:25] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I think it is too
[16:26] <pleia2> the test case is very exclusively "If you have a USB drive, plug it in and check it is mounted"
[16:26] <pleia2> not "can you open it" ;)
[16:26] <astraljava> Os_Maleus: Ok, take care soon. Sadly our bug-ridding won't help you there.
[16:26] <hobgoblin> mmm - semantics pleia2 :)
[16:26] <pleia2> hobgoblin: semantics? this is important, I don't know that I would have marked it as a fail
[16:26] <astraljava> pleia2: Yep, that was partly why I mentioned the testcase wordings just above.
[16:27] <pleia2> (well, if it showed up in "mount" I wouldn't have)
[16:27] <hobgoblin> I would - a usb that mounts in the system but is useless without fiddling is useless
[16:27] <pleia2> if the test is "If you have a USB drive, plug it in and check it is mounted and browseable" we should make it "and browseable"
[16:27] <hobgoblin> imo
[16:27] <astraljava> It's hardly interesting to know that the system can mount a removable disk. It should be browsable, too.
[16:27] <hobgoblin> +1
[16:27] <hobgoblin> reword it then :)
[16:28] <pleia2> ok, we should reword it
[16:28] <astraljava> Hold your horses, we'll get there.
[16:28] <hobgoblin> lol
[16:28] <pleia2> next question is bug 1014632 :)
[16:28] <pleia2> how is this a fail? we don't even mention Thunar in the short test
[16:28] <hobgoblin> pleia2: which is where a usb would be browseable from 
[16:29] <pleia2> but the test asks nothing about the behavior of thunar, by this logic anything wrong with thunar at all is a fail
[16:29] <hobgoblin> well mark it as a pass ;)
[16:30] <astraljava> No, again, it's the same thing as we just went through. We don't really care whether the system is able to mount removable drives. Well we do, but we also want to be able to browse them.
[16:30] <astraljava> Like we just agreed, we'll reword the test.
[16:31] <pleia2> I really am just using these as examples
[16:31] <pleia2> trying to figure out how strict the wording on Short is
[16:31] <astraljava> Sure, and these examples are just about the same problem, unless I'm seeing something differently.
[16:31] <hobgoblin> they are 
[16:31] <astraljava> pleia2: It seems to be really strict, as I understood from the last QA community meeting.
[16:32] <pleia2> alright
[16:32] <astraljava> So, again, we have to carefully reword the cases.
[16:32] <pleia2> thanks :)
[16:32] <astraljava> They need to describe things we really care about, like in this case is very evident.
[16:32] <hobgoblin> thanks :)
[16:33] <astraljava> Good points, thank you! Do we have any further questions?
[16:33]  * pleia2 has a few, but others should go if they have some :)
[16:33] <hobgoblin> none here
[16:34] <astraljava> I believe we can go through yours, pleia2.
[16:34] <pleia2> I see the same questions coming up from testers over and over: 1) Where do I know where to submit a bug 2) what to put in the "hardware profile" url link
[16:35] <pleia2> sorry ubottu 
[16:35]  * pleia2 pet pet
[16:35] <pleia2> are these documented somewhere?
[16:36] <hobgoblin> I managed to dig out the hardware profile thing the other day for ccInc I think it was 
[16:36] <astraljava> They probably are not, very well at least.
[16:36] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage is ok for installed systems, but it's really hard for iso testing
[16:37] <pleia2> I talked to a BugSquad person the other day and he said people can ask in #ubuntu-bugs too
[16:37] <hobgoblin> good idea
[16:37] <astraljava> That's one thing. Sometimes people just aren't available. I wouldn't mind if people filed the bugs against the project, unless there are some release-specific items on LP.
[16:38] <astraljava> I'll mark that one up for research.
[16:38] <astraljava> Sorry, don't have a good answer right now.
[16:39] <pleia2> no worries, I'd rather it made it somewhere xubuntu-ish rather than just another of the thousands of bugs against ubuntu when people don't know
[16:39] <pleia2> having it linked in the QA tracker helps make it not get lost, so maybe I'm too worried :)
[16:40] <astraljava> Well it sort of does, but the current problem of losing the results when the next image is spun makes them difficult to find, at the moment.
[16:40] <astraljava> "losing"*
[16:41] <pleia2> actually, there is now a "Bugs to look for" at the top of each test submission thing
[16:41] <pleia2> "List of bugs that were previously reported for this testcase."
[16:41] <pleia2> they are testcase specific, but they aren't lost anymore
[16:41] <astraljava> I'm not sure whether people saw that, but on yesterday's (excellent, if I might add) classroom QA session, phillw mentioned work is being done on the tracker so that results can be found easier.
[16:41] <pleia2> yeah, that too
[16:42] <pleia2> is there a project for the QA tracker in launchpad? (my google fu is failing horribly)
[16:42] <pleia2> I'll see if there is a bug open to add a note to "hardware profile" telling people they can just include any link, that would sort the other tedious problem
[16:42] <hobgoblin> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website
[16:42] <pleia2> thanks hobgoblin :)
[16:43] <hobgoblin> the onlky thing I found about hardware profile is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U+1/iso-testing-qa#Step_2:_Hardware_Profile
[16:43] <hobgoblin> but I never have used it myself in the tracker
[16:43] <pleia2> ah, the scattering of documentation between 40 qa projects
[16:44] <hobgoblin> yep
[16:44] <pleia2> ok, I'll submit a bug on this
[16:44] <astraljava> Yeah, thanks hobgoblin. I'll try to make a short howto of that for this upcoming milestone testing call.
[16:45] <hobgoblin> ok 
[16:45] <pleia2> my next question is because of my annoying time zone
[16:45] <hobgoblin> astraljava: or I could do it - I have spare time if it helps you
[16:45] <astraljava> hobgoblin: I'd appreciate it muchly. :)
[16:45] <hobgoblin> astraljava: ok :)
[16:46] <pleia2> I often only get time to test isos in the evening, which is like 03:00 UTC, and dailys come out around this time, annoyingly I often download an iso and then by the time I get it to my test machine it's the next day
[16:46] <hobgoblin> pleia2: I've had that happen 3 or 4 times 
[16:46] <pleia2> what channel/mailing list/whatever should I follow to get an idea of when dailys are made?
[16:47] <pleia2> I might just wait until my time in the evening when the next comes out ,but right now I only know by refreshing the qa site (dislike)
[16:48] <astraljava> pleia2: They're cron-based, it seems today's images came out at 0958 UTC (most likely, unless the page makes it to my timezone automagically).
[16:48] <astraljava> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/20120624/
[16:48] <pleia2> so it really is just checking websites for images to show up
[16:49] <astraljava> pleia2: Yep, I don't think Xubuntu receives email about it. I could ask for one, Studio gets one but I'm not sure why.
[16:49] <hobgoblin> pleia2: seems they are always at that time 
[16:49] <pleia2> that would be lovely :)
[16:50] <pleia2> I mean, I could write an hourly script to go check http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/nextday and send myself an email ;)
[16:50] <hobgoblin> pleia2: daily lives appear to be 10:20 ish
[16:50] <astraljava> pleia2: Err... so you won't need email to be sent from the cdimage process, then?
[16:50] <pleia2> hobgoblin: hm, that hasn't really been my experience
[16:51] <pleia2> astraljava: I think it's still useful, these questions aren't all about personal needs, I think they're useful to others too
[16:51] <hobgoblin> yep
[16:51] <pleia2> if we can figure out how studio gets one, that'd be nice :)
[16:52] <astraljava> pleia2: Ok. I'd like to discuss with the team, first, though. Not sure everyone will want the "spam". :)
[16:52] <pleia2> yeah, we may want to set up a separate qa list for the noise
[16:52] <pleia2> alright, I think that's all my questions
[16:52] <pleia2> thanks :)
[16:52] <astraljava> pleia2: I can find out how we (Studio) get it, for sure.
[16:53] <astraljava> Ok, thanks for all of your great questions!
[16:54] <astraljava> So, as I really haven't had time to prepare a real agenda for today, let me just freely go through a few things that I have on my mind regarding the near future.
[16:54] <hobgoblin> one quick one from me 
[16:54] <astraljava> Ok, shoot.
[16:55] <hobgoblin> what do you want me to do with the hardware profile thing once I've done it? 
[16:55] <hobgoblin> or rather where do you want me to do it - wiki page, e-mail ... 
[16:56] <astraljava> hobgoblin: A wiki page would be lovely, under Xubuntu/Testing/, please.
[16:56] <hobgoblin> ok :)
[16:56]  * hobgoblin is quiet now
[16:57] <Unit193> There's a "Subscribe" and "Unsubscribe" under the ISOs, as well as a WIP subscriptions page.
[16:57] <GridCube> (is today another testers meeting?)
[16:58]  * astraljava sighs
[16:58] <astraljava> First, Unit193, want to elaborate a bit on that one? Second, GridCube, yes, as announced on our mailing lists. :)
[16:59] <GridCube> o: i must have missed it
[16:59] <GridCube> its there anything you might need from me?
[16:59] <astraljava> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008252.html
[16:59] <GridCube> oh, yes
[16:59] <GridCube> i read that, i just forgot
[16:59] <astraljava> GridCube: I dunno, if you have anything to contribute. :)
[17:00] <GridCube> i need to start to use some kind of scheduling thingy
[17:00] <GridCube> :) astraljava i have a small comment
[17:00] <astraljava> It shoulda been in the Xubuntu calendar. Ask pleia2 for details.
[17:00] <pleia2> Unit193: wow, I spent like 10 minutes the other day trying to find how to Subscribe (btw http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscription is sad)
[17:00] <pleia2> it is in the calendar
[17:00] <GridCube> the other day i fall into the qa tracker meeting, just happened to be around at the time
[17:01] <astraljava> Thanks, pleia2.
[17:01] <Unit193> pleia2: Quite.
[17:01] <hobgoblin> pleia2: I might have found it ... 
[17:01] <pleia2> Unit193: hm, I see an option to subscribe to the test cases
[17:02] <hobgoblin> yea that 
[17:02] <pleia2> not the isos themselves
[17:02] <GridCube> and asked the guy who was chairing it to if he could see for my idea of this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/994816
[17:02] <GridCube> he said he would look into it and that he liked the idea :3
[17:03] <Unit193> Like http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects or http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/bugs ?
[17:03] <pleia2> Unit193: are you referring to the test cases or ISOs? if ISOs, where?
[17:03] <Unit193> Testcase.
[17:04] <pleia2> ok, you said ISOs, I am looking for when the ISOs are ready each day
[17:05] <astraljava> GridCube: Yes, I think that is already being worked on, but not sure. Nonetheless, good if you got your message through.
[17:05] <GridCube> :D i did
[17:06] <astraljava> Unit193: pleia2: Is your matter still being handled?
[17:06] <GridCube> i would also have said that works where being done rewriting the testcase procedurals, but i was afraid of making a mistake
[17:06] <astraljava> Oh, they are. I will talk more about them when they are in place.
[17:07] <astraljava> In fact, I just asked about it on -testing.
[17:07] <astraljava> ...or something related to that.
[17:07] <astraljava> Unit193: I ask because I am not sure what you're referring to.
[17:07] <Unit193> I'm done, yep.
[17:08] <astraljava> Unit193: No, I mean, I'd like to know. :)
[17:09] <astraljava> Oh, sorry, missed a line, there.
[17:09] <pleia2> astraljava: I'm all set
[17:09] <astraljava> Right, so any more questions/worries from anyone?
[17:09] <pleia2> I still need to review the Long test, I have an email from knome in my inbox
[17:09] <astraljava> Yes, me too.
[17:10] <hobgoblin> is that on the way - generally speaking
[17:10] <astraljava> Okay, so that's one thing I wanted to say. The /Long testcase is being rewritten, and I'll post about it once we get it into a little better shape.
[17:11] <astraljava> We need to do it soon, as we're entering the Alpha-2 week now.
[17:11] <astraljava> The purpose is to release the milestone on Thursday, 28th of June.
[17:11] <astraljava> So if you have time this upcoming week, pay attention to our mailing lists.
[17:12] <astraljava> As this is an important thing in our QA process, I won't spend too much of our time on other issues right now. I'll just briefly mention a few other things that are going on in the QA-side of things for this cycle.
[17:13] <astraljava> Two other things are on my plate, and they were also mentioned in the first meeting announcement; Boot-time speed-up, and Compositor usage.
[17:14] <astraljava> Of the first, we have a blueprint at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-optimize-boot
[17:14] <astraljava> As you can see, it's in its initial state, still. I'll work on it right after we get Alpha-2 nicely outta oven.
[17:15] <astraljava> If you have lots of time on your hands, though, you can already get educated on bootcharting.
[17:15] <astraljava> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootCharting
[17:16] <astraljava> It's one valuable tool that we can use to gather information about our product and how it behaves at the boot-time.
[17:16] <astraljava> It's not enough alone, though, but it'll get us started. We will then discuss about our findings once some preliminary analyzing of the results is done.
[17:17] <astraljava> Again, stay tuned for our meetings when we proceed with this.
[17:17] <astraljava> ...if you're interested, that is. :)
[17:17] <hobgoblin> :)
[17:17] <astraljava> The other thing, compositor, and whether to enable it by default or not, is another matter.
[17:18] <astraljava> Practically there are two schools of thought, here.
[17:18] <astraljava> For some it seems to provide a more pleasing desktop experience.
[17:18] <astraljava> For some others, it seems to make it hideous.
[17:18] <astraljava> There doesn't seem to be much middle-ground here.
[17:19] <astraljava> For this I haven't yet been able to draw any plans, really. So if you are a usability expert, or have some thoughts about it generally, please do let us know. Any forum is fine.
[17:20] <astraljava> But basically, in the end I'm after some hard facts on what things seem to factor in to the end results, and once we have those, we want to find out whether there's something we can do to act on borderline cases.
[17:22] <astraljava> I'll post about this on the mailing lists, again, when I have a moment to focus on it better.
[17:23] <astraljava> Right, that's about what I have to say at the moment. Did anyone think of any new questions based on the things I babbled about above, or some completely other topics?
[17:24] <hobgoblin> bootchart - I assume that you'd want it installed into quantal for it to make sense ?
[17:25] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes. This means that you cannot scrub the new install that you do when going through our ISO testing. :)
[17:26] <hobgoblin> :)
[17:26] <hobgoblin> depends how many bootcharts you want :)
[17:26] <astraljava> But then again, it's only for a short period of time. It's not particularly interesting to test it on very old installs.
[17:26] <hobgoblin> nope
[17:27] <astraljava> Good, any others?
[17:28] <hobgoblin> not from me 
[17:29] <astraljava> going once...
[17:29] <astraljava> going twice...
[17:30] <astraljava> 'endmeeting'
[17:30] <hobgoblin> thanks astraljava - time for food and stuff before the italians get a hammering for me 
[17:30] <astraljava> Thanks for everyone! Good questions, nice conversation.
[17:30] <pleia2> thanks astraljava :)
[17:30] <astraljava> Hah. :) Well, quite frankly, never been a fan of the italian team. Hope you guys win. :)
[17:31] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I'll work on that wiki page tomorrow
[17:31] <hobgoblin> astraljava: me too and then 5-1 against the germans would be good - can't see it though lol
[17:31] <astraljava> hobgoblin: That's great if you can do that. Please ping me when you have something ready.
[17:31] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I will :)
[17:31] <astraljava> Cheers.
[17:32] <astraljava> Oh yeah, I didn't think we needed another meeting very soon, but pleia2, didn't we agree earlier that we'd have these every third week=
[17:32] <astraljava> = == ?
[17:32] <pleia2> astraljava: yeah, something like that :)
[17:33] <pleia2> so July 15th?
[17:33] <astraljava> Ok, can you mark it in the Xubuntu calendar? 15th of July, same time same place.
[17:33] <astraljava> Heh, nice.
[17:33] <astraljava> I'll note it in the minutes as well.
[17:33] <pleia2> ok, adding to calendar now
[17:33] <astraljava> You rawk!
[17:34] <pleia2> thanks, sorted :)
[17:48] <micahg> mr_pouit: did you discuss the gegl change with the desktoppers?
[19:42] <alazare619> can soemeone get me a copy of the preseed file for xubuntu
[19:44] <Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ You can.
[20:05] <mr_pouit> micahg: nope, because the merge from jbicha was incomplete (he wanted to drop libavcodec-dev, but kept libavformat-dev, which depends on libavcodec-dev...)
[20:06] <mr_pouit> micahg: if they're not happy, they can say it (it has been broken since the merge and nobody took action, so I guess nobody cares)
[20:18] <alazare619> Unit193, how do i download the preseed file from there?