[01:22] <noogenesis> so the best argument for tabs is that it allows for this:  lets say everyone on a project agrees on the basic indentation/style/formatting but disagrees only on how many spaces each indentation level should be
[01:22] <noogenesis> in theory with tabs its easier to adjust your display of the code
[01:23] <rick_h_> noogenesis: == derekv?
[01:25] <noogenesis> yea...
[01:25] <noogenesis> one sec
[01:26] <derekv> weird
[01:26] <derekv> somewhere I have that set as a fallback nick
[01:28] <derekv> I guess I don't care that deeply about how much its indented.  8 would be way to much
[01:28] <derekv> I think just about everyone uses 4 anyways... can't remember having worked with 2
[01:29] <rick_h_> two is popular in ruby, coffeescript/js (ruby-ists) and html
[01:31] <derekv> I'm not totally groking the arguments against tabs, but I really don't care ... I just want to configure my editor some way and save that in my dotfiles
[01:31] <derekv> and go back to not thinking about it.
[01:32] <derekv> But I don't want to be writing files that look like ass when other people open them.
[01:32] <derekv> It looks like more people fall in the spaces camp
[01:33] <derekv> here's the thing, i'll use emacs when I can but i'm often forced to use eclipse or xcode
[01:33] <derekv> and I work with other who don't use the same editor, they will use eclipse or xcode or notepad++ or something,
[01:34] <rick_h_> so the space thing comes down to looking right everywhere
[01:34] <rick_h_> pastebin, other editors, terminal
[01:34] <derekv> and not everyone is really aware of formatting issue ie not really aware of how their own editor works
[01:34] <rick_h_> if I use 4 spaces, it'll always be 4 space
[01:34] <derekv> Yea
[01:34] <rick_h_> tabs just vary all over the place
[01:34] <rick_h_> and then you get into the mixed tabs/spaces in files and have to deal with that
[01:34] <rick_h_> in vim I can set it up (and most editors) to just use spaces, replace tabs with spaces, etc
[01:34] <rick_h_> and never notice it again
[01:35] <rick_h_> I hit the tab key, and all the editors enter 4 spaces for it, it's become the standard that tabs might have been
[01:35] <derekv> yea it isn't default though
[01:35] <derekv> eclipse is horrible
[01:35] <derekv> and so is xcode
[01:35] <derekv> the default settings just are all over the place
[01:36] <rick_h_> yea
[01:36] <rick_h_> fortunately I dont' tend to mess with devs using default things so I'm lucky that way
[01:36] <rick_h_> and things like pylint/etc will get angry if you break things
[01:36] <derekv> yea
[01:36] <rick_h_> even python will get fussy if you mix tabs/spaces in a file so I don't tend to notice it muych
[01:37] <derekv> So either I'm just going to find some settings that don't upset anyone for say xcode and emacs that don't cause whitespace wars
[01:38] <derekv> eg ideally a file formatted in one, opened in the other and processed with a "correct formatting" command should have no changes
[01:38] <derekv> it'll be spaces
[01:40] <derekv> or just use this http://uncrustify.sourceforge.net/
[01:46] <rick_h_> derekv: you're not in #bookie, but looking for opinions from users on favicon support: http://uploads.mitechie.com/favicon_sample.png
[01:51] <rick_h_> ugh, this prod db migration thing is going to take forever.
[02:14] <jrwren> AND, tabs aren't really eaiser. a good editor makes it easy either way.  << and >> in vim for example.
[02:29] <derekv> ugh the thing is I whipped up this thing this week and didn't do much to the default eclipse config
[02:30] <derekv> its not like really bad, but suddenly i'm annoyed with myself for not fixing that
[02:30] <derekv> going over 80 chars etc
[02:33]  * derekv looks 
[02:33] <derekv> great it mixes tabs and spaces
[02:33] <derekv> maybe I should fix this
[02:33] <derekv> trying to decide which is worse
[02:39] <derekv> its worse to leave it I think
[02:39] <derekv> i found some of their code and its clean
[02:55] <jrwren> is it python? python really does not like mixed spaces and tabs
[02:58] <derekv> no no
[02:58] <derekv> java
[02:58] <derekv> its what eclipse does out of the box
[03:00] <derekv> you know how they say you should be in touch with the people who actually use your software
[03:01] <derekv> you can imagine the sorts of things that'd happen if the developers had no clue about the actual needs or wants of the people who were using the software, no understanding of the problem domain etc
[03:01] <derekv> eclipse strikes me as that sort of software
[03:01] <derekv> which makes it a sort of paradox
[10:42] <snap-l> http://paste.mitechie.com/raw/ayBZIxIx5wpKRWzrQQk4/ <- They're definitely getting more creative
[10:43] <snap-l> half-tempted to reply: "Oh yes, which of my vast number of industrial design posts caught your fancy?"
[10:52] <snap-l> Funny enough, mug.org got the same thing
[10:53] <snap-l> must be my strong undercurrent of industrial design hidden in my otherwise otherwise inane postings about life as a FLOSSie
[11:47] <rick_h_> ok, so a little bit funny http://goo.gl/OWY1B
[11:55] <shakes808> Morning
[11:58] <rick_h_> party
[12:02] <brousch> on
[12:59] <brousch> snap-l: How the heck did you get first comment on that Maddog post?
[12:59] <rick_h_> snap-l: is crazy like that
[13:04] <snap-l> That wasn't first comment
[13:04] <snap-l> it's in descending order.
[13:06] <brousch> ah
[13:12] <jrwren> lol
[13:12] <jrwren> maddog Hall? what is he talking about?
[13:14] <brousch> http://www.linux-magazine.com/content/view/full/55727
[13:24] <rick_h_> widox: this mouse is kind of crazy.
[13:25] <rick_h_> the scrolling haptic is cool, but still funny because it's not a straight pad like it looks like in the pic online
[13:30] <rick_h_> snap-l: you're killing the bmark.us favicon flow :P get those sites to update!
[13:32] <widox> rick_h_: oh, because it has a slight curve to it?
[13:32] <rick_h_> no, it's like two split rectangles with a line in the middle that's like a visible sensor
[13:32] <rick_h_> so you slide over this little slit in the middle and it detects it as 'scrolling'
[13:32] <rick_h_> and middle click is to dbl click on that sensor
[13:41] <widox> ah
[13:50] <snap-l> rick_h_: Which sites?
[13:50] <rick_h_> snap-l: all the music ones
[13:50] <snap-l> Hah, bandcamp? :)
[13:50] <rick_h_> check out the front page right now
[13:51] <snap-l> Oh, nice.
[13:51] <rick_h_> the first 4, and then the next 14 or so after that
[13:51] <snap-l> sorry, mate.
[13:51] <snap-l> bandcamp has a favicon, though
[13:52] <rick_h_> hmm, looking
[13:52] <rick_h_> ah, but skagos.bandcamp doesn't
[13:52] <snap-l> I'm seeing one
[13:52] <rick_h_> bah, http://s2.googleusercontent.com/s2/favicons?domain=bandcamp.com
[13:53] <rick_h_> google doesn't know about it
[13:53] <snap-l>     <link rel="shortcut icon" href="http://f0.bcbits.com/z/36/20/3620060950-1.jpg">
[13:53] <rick_h_> http://bandcamp.com/favicon.ico
[13:54] <rick_h_> hmm, wonder why they have rel=shortcut
[13:55] <snap-l> Probably simpler than trying to stuff everyone's favicon into some rewrite rules.
[13:55] <rick_h_> no, I get the icon bit, but not sure what shortcut is for
[13:55] <rick_h_> and not sure you can have multiple values for rel
[13:56] <snap-l> I'm seeing the shortcut being rendered as a favicon under Chrome
[13:56] <snap-l> Maybe that could be a fallback rendering path?
[13:56] <rick_h_> not sure, looking.
[13:57] <rick_h_> in the offical favicon the rel='icon' is supported, but not seeing what supports rel='shortcut' and wonder if that why it fails
[13:57] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon#Standardisation
[13:58] <snap-l> The popular rel="shortcut icon" theoretically identifies two relations, shortcut and icon, but shortcut is not registered and is redundant. In 2011 the HTML living standard[15] specified that for historical reasons shortcut is allowed immediately before icon;[16] however shortcut does not itself have a meaning.
[14:09] <jrwren> snap-l: great comment.
[14:12] <snap-l> jrwren: Thank you.
[14:37] <snap-l> I love the "it's time for the Linux Desktop" mindset now that MIcrosoft is making it's own tablet.
[14:38] <snap-l> It's as if there will be a Holy-Ghost revival of the OEMs as they SEE THE LIGHT!
[14:39] <snap-l> And not the usual OEM machinations of "it must be a day ending in Y when Microsoft moves the goalposts"
[14:39] <snap-l> That said, I think it'll be interesting times ahead if one of the majors threatens Linux.
[14:40] <snap-l> but I'm not holding my breath
[14:42] <krondor> snap-l:  well MS making a tablet I don't think is the big kick to the OEMs.  I'm actually thinking Apple eating MS lunch kind of opens the floodgate for Linux to an extent
[14:43] <krondor> people willing to break that lock in maybe.. but yeah next years should be interesting anyway.  Using Win8 metroUI feels bad to me.
[14:44] <krondor> I'm hardly the target market though, so there's that
[14:44] <snap-l> Just seems like we're constantly looking something to grab onto in order to open the clamshell lock-in of the desktop
[14:56] <jrwren> snap-l: actually, i was thinking about canonical's position with respect to 'tablet' why doesn't canonical enter the hardware market?
[14:57] <brousch> Can I install KDE on the Unity Tablet?
[15:03] <snap-l> jrwren: I'm not sure
[15:03] <snap-l> Maybe because they don't have the hardware partners lined up yet
[15:04] <snap-l> or maybe that's part of the plan
[15:04] <snap-l> Frankly, I'd be wary of releasing hardware. Hardware is expensive, and depreciates rapidly.
[15:09] <jrwren> yes, but it also makes $
[15:09] <jrwren> but then that speaks to canonical's goals as a corporation. They surely must be more than just bug#1
[15:10] <jrwren> hrm... how does upstart relate to collaboration?  http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/overview
[15:21] <jrwren> pretty simple answer afaict, its not a place where canonical wants to play.
[15:22] <rick_h_> the landscape isn't exactly full of success there
[15:22] <rick_h_> and there's work there with the TV/android that shows I think canonical is interested in working with existing hardware partners
[15:24] <jrwren> paramiko or conch?
[15:24] <rick_h_> paramiko has been superceeded (maybe it's back) from the fabric guys into just 'ssh'
[15:25] <rick_h_> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ssh/1.7.14
[15:25] <rick_h_> he's basically got an approved paramiko fork used in fabric
[15:25] <rick_h_> and is working on getting full permissions to paramiko since the original dev/etc are done with it
[15:26] <jrwren> thanks.
[15:27] <snap-l> There's still releases of paramiko
[15:27] <snap-l> 2012-05-17
[15:27] <rick_h_> yea, but I think they've comed from patches from the fabric team
[15:28] <rick_h_> not 100% sure though
[15:28] <jrwren> https://github.com/bitprophet/ssh/
[15:28] <rick_h_> yea, bitprophet is the head fabric guy and was working around/fixing a lot of paramiko bugs
[15:29] <snap-l> Yeah, the paramiko page is pretty lagged
[15:29] <rick_h_> https://github.com/robey/paramiko/
[15:29] <rick_h_> lol, linked from the front page of the paramiko site
[15:29] <snap-l> Yeah, sar that
[15:30] <jrwren> i updated http://wiki.python.org/moin/SecureShell to reflect it :)
[15:30] <rick_h_> https://github.com/paramiko/paramiko
[15:30] <rick_h_> see the last commit :)
[15:30] <rick_h_> https://github.com/bitprophet/ssh/commits/master
[15:30] <rick_h_> anyway, that's the story these days. It's a mess and hopefully the two will merge back into one and rule the world
[15:31] <jrwren> doesn't seem too bad to me.
[15:31] <rick_h_> well, it's been forever that paramiko was the game in town, and with bitprophet committing to both, life would be simpler if there was just one package to refer to
[15:33] <snap-l> That's not pythonic. ;)
[15:33] <snap-l> You have to have at least two compelling ways to do anything
[15:49] <jrwren> i like diversity and choice. i love more than one way to do something.
[15:50] <jrwren> i shall now refer to these differences between pragmatism and pythonicism as the idiocy of the pythonic or just pythonidiot
[16:02] <jrwren> bsides videos are up https://www.youtube.com/user/BSidesDetroit
[16:13] <krondor> jrwren: ++ thanks, I wanted to go to that but wasn't able
[16:14] <rick_h_> when was this? totally missed it happened
[16:16] <krondor> Weekend of June 1st at the RenCen I believe, twas free to I think
[16:16] <rick_h_> hmm, just missed it I guess
[17:01] <snap-l> ttp://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/securid-crypto-attack-steals-keys/
[17:01] <snap-l> add appropriate h in there
[17:01] <snap-l> http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/securid-crypto-attack-steals-keys/
[17:32] <krondor> it's been a rough ride for RSA lately.  Other tokens are impacted too, but it doesn't look like yubikey is impacted w/o pkcs#11
[18:06] <snap-l> Nice. Moved from And Justice For All to to Frizzle Fry.
[18:06] <snap-l> earlier today it was Limbomaniacs
[18:06] <snap-l> Apparently the Squeezebox wants to remind me of college.
[18:07] <snap-l> (and an elbow-to-the-throat to the first person who says "those were released when I was in middle school / elementary school / before I was born")
[18:08] <brousch> How about, "I have no idea who that is?"
[18:08] <snap-l> brousch: Metallica: ...And Justice For All
[18:08] <snap-l> brousch: Primus: Frizzle Fry (first studio album)
[18:08] <brousch> Yeah, onbviously I meant the other ones
[18:09] <brousch> Ah, Primus
[18:09] <snap-l> brousch: Limbomaniacs: Butt Funkin'
[18:09] <brousch> If I had my druthers, I'd screw a chimpanzee
[18:09] <snap-l> (Features Brain, later the drummer from Primus during the Brown era)
[18:10] <snap-l> songs / videos NSFW
[18:10] <snap-l> but one of my favorite out-of-print albums
[18:10] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guitarists/Buckethead_task_force/Limbomaniacs
[18:11] <snap-l> Bah, I meant Stinky Grooves.
[19:44] <krondor> snap-l: alice cooper fan?
[19:50] <snap-l> krondor: Not a huge fan. I have a greatest hits album
[19:50] <snap-l> just haven't gotten around to getting the rest.
[19:50] <snap-l> Have tons of respect, though
[19:50] <krondor> I watched an insane movie recently with a rant by a girl on how Alice Cooper is responsible for all metal including Punk, was kind of neat.
[19:50] <snap-l> That's an interesting take on it. :)
[19:51] <krondor> Movie was called God Bless America (indie film) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1912398/
[19:51] <snap-l> Will add to Netflix
[19:52] <snap-l> I'd probably put Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin in that category, but Alice Cooper definitely shaped the horror aspects of metal
[19:52] <snap-l> Rob Zombie has admitted as much
[19:54] <snap-l> Alice's interview on Metal: A headbanger's journey is pure gold
[19:54] <krondor> hmm, I'll have to look that up.  I haven't listened to much Alice Cooper but I was thinking maybe I should
[19:55] <snap-l> He's a Detroit native, and was on Frank Zappa's label fro a time
[19:57] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Cooper#1960s
[19:58] <krondor> yeah I knew he was from here, I actually saw him when I was eating lunch in Royal Oak once walking around with Gene Simmons.  That was kind of odd.
[19:58] <krondor> I have to say I don't particularly like Gene Simmons (not knowing him but seeing him on interviews and junk)
[20:00] <snap-l> his public persona is that of a smug jackass, but I think underneath it is someone who genuinely would take a bullet for people.
[20:00] <snap-l> That said, I also think if given an alternative, he'd shove other folks under a bus.
[21:36] <jrwren> omg, loving my job today. i used this as a reference to write 15 lines of code to implement scp on top of 'ssh' https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jbardin-deactivatedaccount/paramiko/paramiko_scp/view/head:/paramiko/scp.py
[21:36] <jrwren> that was fun
[22:58] <rick_h_> jrwren: :) awesome