[02:19] <imnichol> is there a good area for complaining that none of the developer.ubuntu.com tutorials have any comments in them?
[02:30] <pleia2> I'm not sure I'd recommend a place "to complain" but the app developer folks can be found in #ubuntu-app-devel and I'm sure they'd be open to suggestions for improvement on the site :)
[02:30] <pleia2> there's also a launchpad project for the site, where you can submit bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntudeveloperportal
[07:30] <AlanBell> some nice looking applications there, I am quite impressed
[07:36] <bkerensa> gnight folks
[08:45] <joris_> for a discussion channel it sure is quiet
[08:45] <toddy> joris_: yes, you are right. :D
[08:46] <joris_> so toddy, let's discuss something
[08:52] <toddy> joris_: do you sell discussion topics for ubuntu? :)
[08:53] <joris_> yes but they are open source so you can modify them if you want
[08:53] <joris_> let me just think of a few topics...
[08:54] <toddy> oh thats fine
[08:56] <joris_> 1: what is needed to get businesses interested in open source and ubuntu
[08:58] <toddy> 1: A good solution for their business.
[08:59] <AlanBell> joris_: my job is implementing open source stuff for businesses
[08:59] <joris_> what kind of stuff?
[08:59] <AlanBell> mostly server applications running on Ubuntu
[09:00] <AlanBell> vtiger and OpenERP are the big ones for us, but also Alfresco and Joomla!
[09:00] <AlanBell> we use Ubuntu on the desktop, customers generally don't yet
[09:00] <joris_> products are one thing, is open source meeting enterprise demand for stability and support?
[09:01] <AlanBell> but they do see us using it and they can see it is useable
[09:01] <AlanBell> well yeah, we provide support
[09:01] <AlanBell> stability is pretty solid
[09:02] <joris_> also functional and implementation support?
[09:03] <AlanBell> yeah
[09:03] <joris_> in what region?
[09:03] <AlanBell> we are UK based
[09:04] <AlanBell> I would like customers to use Ubuntu more, but desktop migrations are kind of expensive and you end up back where you started, with a desktop that works
[09:04] <joris_> i think we have a enormous opportunity now
[09:05] <joris_> windows 8 is a radical shift from xp and 7, business could be searching for alternatives
[09:05] <AlanBell> yeah, could be
[09:08] <joris_> so what problems and opportunities do you see for starting businesses if they looking at using open source as their desktop, groupware etc
[09:09] <AlanBell> there is a lack of integration with Ubuntu server I think
[09:10] <AlanBell> though the Zentyal partnership thing is a good move yesterday
[09:10] <AlanBell> http://blog.canonical.com/2012/06/25/helping-zentyal-offer-an-open-source-alternative-for-small-businesses/
[09:10] <joris_> in what area? something like groupware or managing domains?
[09:10] <AlanBell> well kind of everything
[09:11] <joris_> (looks great btw)
[09:11] <AlanBell> what I think it should do is you set up your Ubuntu server with all the services you want, like email, calendaring, CRM etc
[09:11] <AlanBell> then you install an Ubuntu desktop and the installer asks for your username and password to the Ubuntu server it just discovered by avahi
[09:12] <ikonia> AlanBell: how is that compatible with other solutions, eg: exchange, thunderbird/sunbird, evolution, lotus
[09:12] <AlanBell> then it sets you all up with email, browser bookmarks the lot
[09:12] <ikonia> (specfically calandering)
[09:12] <AlanBell> ical works
[09:12] <AlanBell> tbh we use thunderbird with google calendar as our calendaring server
[09:13] <AlanBell> then it works to android without any fuss
[09:13] <ikonia> AlanBell: one of the strongest gripes I hit on, is the lack of compatability with things like exchange meeting requests and calandering
[09:13] <AlanBell> I get meeting requests that I reply to and add to the calendar
[09:13] <AlanBell> they grow special buttons
[09:13] <joris_> my first reaction is kind of the same: setting up a mailserver? why not google calendar for businesses? guess the cloud is easier for businesses
[09:13] <ikonia> AlanBell: this is not some of the small businesses I have visited are finding
[09:14] <ikonia> joris_: not everyone wants to depend on public services
[09:14] <AlanBell> joris_: so your Ubuntu server should know that you are using google apps for domains and configure services to point there as appropriate
[09:14] <ikonia> joris_: not everyone wants to use google accounts for core business functionality
[09:15] <joris_> ikonia: obviously not, but for a small startup it saves the cost of a dedicated it departement
[09:15] <ikonia> you shouldn't need a dedicated department
[09:15] <ikonia> even for a small business
[09:15] <ikonia> it just needs a solid initial setup
[09:16] <joris_> that initial setup is kind of a barrier for startups, be it IT or financial stuff
[09:16] <ikonia> yes
[09:16] <ikonia> it's a cost not many are willing to accept
[09:16] <ikonia> and often end up spending more post setup fixing issues
[09:17] <joris_> ?
[09:17] <ikonia> not spending the money to get a good initial setup will often end up in a bigger spend in $X months time fixing the sloppy initial setup when business is up and running and depends on those services
[09:18] <joris_> (sorry, i did something in xchat, so i'm missing your previous comments)
[09:18] <ikonia> not to worry, it's certainly not important
[09:19] <joris_> yup
[09:19]  * AlanBell goes back to working on a customer's vtiger system
[09:19] <joris_> AlanBell: tnx for your comments
[09:21] <joris_> ikonia: if we just take an average office based company of say 10 people, what is needed and how can open source fill those needs?
[09:21] <ikonia> depends on their setup/needs/budget
[09:21] <ikonia> there is no set solution
[09:22] <joris_> let's say desktops + email + calendar + word processing + spreadsheet
[09:23] <ikonia> there are many desktop options, email clients, email servers, calander servers/clients, there are a few office suites of various quality/stability/functionality/long term solution
[09:23] <ikonia> it's just working with the people to find the software that best suits their needs
[09:24] <joris_> so that seems to me the first hurdle: choice
[09:24] <joris_> and with that comes compatibility: not everything works nicely together out of the box
[09:24] <ikonia> and that's way you hire experience for the initial setup
[09:26] <joris_> do you know if that kind of support is comparible in price and function to a microsoft shop?
[09:27] <ikonia> it varies from supplier to supplier and deal to deal
[09:27] <ikonia> most small businesses will use small multi-vendor-style single stop support
[09:27] <ikonia> rather than offical vendor support
[09:28] <ikonia> bespoke support packages etc, so it will vary
[09:29] <AlanBell> we also resell official vendor support
[09:29] <AlanBell> this kind of stuff http://www.openerp.com/catalog/146
[09:30] <AlanBell> and this http://www.canonical.com/enterprise-services/ubuntu-advantage/support
[09:30] <joris_> AlanBell: are those prices and support comparible to microsoft shops?
[09:30] <ikonia> that's software, not OS
[09:31] <ikonia> it's unfair to say a specialist support package in openerp at 1900 euros against say a 350 euro exchange support deal, they are different scales of software
[09:31] <AlanBell> joris_: yeah, but we are are not competing against Microsoft mostly
[09:31] <AlanBell> compare it to a SAP contract
[09:31] <joris_> ikonia: what do you mean different scales?
[09:32] <joris_> ah ok
[09:32] <AlanBell> generally if you get support from a small IT firm that happens to be an MS partner (most are) then getting support from a small IT firm that isn't (like us) will be comparible prices
[09:33] <AlanBell> I used to do IBM/Lotus stuff, now I do Free software. I charge clients for my time just the same as I used to. My clients just have more money to spend as it isn't going on bits of paper telling them how many seats they can use
[09:34] <joris_> right
[09:34] <AlanBell> I should put my prices up really
[09:34] <joris_> you should, you're famous
[09:37] <joris_> i work at a qa firm in holland, and i see no implementation or demand for open source, except for technical stuff like servers and sometimes middleware
[09:38] <joris_> and i'm trying to know if the reason for this lack of demand is because supply is lacking
[09:38] <ikonia> for a lot of people it's not a viable desktop option for their role
[09:39] <AlanBell> joris_: ISO 9000 kind of QA stuff?
[09:40] <joris_> AlanBell: yes kind of, functional testing, requirements, reviews, stuff like that
[09:43] <joris_> mostly on custom software for big companies
[09:45] <joris_> custom software in big companies means no room for open source, except in servers, libraries, stuff like that
[09:45] <AlanBell> ok, one of our OpenERP customers is doing an internal audit this week and as a result we need to change a few of the reports to match their procedures
[09:48] <joris_> so customization of openerp
[09:50] <joris_> btw, i'd like to help out in qa/testing for ubuntu or opensource, but i don't know where to start
[09:50] <AlanBell> we have quite a big testing infrastructure
[09:51] <AlanBell> #ubuntu-testing is I think the main IRC channel for it
[09:51] <joris_> unit, regression, manual?
[09:52] <joris_> i'll check that channel later
[09:52] <joris_> brb
[09:54] <AlanBell> all sorts
[09:54] <AlanBell> balloons is the person to tell you all about it
[10:01] <joris_> anyway enough about testing and businesses
[10:03] <joris_> discussionpoint nr 2: should we try to get all users interested in the community and teach them about the freedoms of free software, or should we focus on getting people to use free software
[10:05] <ikonia> no
[10:05] <ikonia> it's their choice to be as involved as they want
[10:05] <ikonia> let people choose what they want to use based on their own reasons
[10:07] <joris_> so you don't want to teach people the unvisible benefits of using foss?
[10:10] <ikonia> if they are intested you can show how it may / may not benifit them
[10:11] <ikonia> but finding random people to push it on them doesn't appeal to me
[10:12] <joris_> i'm thinking more about the 'this is open source' introduction when first using firefox
[10:12] <joris_> afk: lunch
[10:16] <ikonia> people don't want that in my view
[10:16] <ikonia> they want a web browser
[10:16] <ikonia> not a lecuture because they use a web browser
[10:17] <ikonia> people want a solution, not knowledge
[10:17] <chu> How pragmatic of you ikonia.
[10:17] <chu> (I agree by the way)
[10:18] <toddy> I agree, too
[13:58] <zykotick9> ikonia: "people want a solution, not knowledge" so that's what's wrong with people in irc ;)
[14:52] <ikonia> zykotick9: as good as a blame as any
[18:34] <TheLordOfTime> Greetings!
[20:20] <AlanBell> that sounds fun
[20:27] <MrChrisDruif> What sounds fun AlanBell ?
[20:27] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha TheLordOfTime
[20:30] <AlanBell> backported kernels
[22:12] <bbartek> I would like to report a bug about Software Centre but I would like to know who to contact first to discuss this problem
[22:13] <bbartek> I made a payment for software ´Journey Down´
[22:13] <bbartek> The payment was succesfull
[22:14] <bbartek> The software wasn´t installed on my computer ...
[22:14] <bbartek> When I try to install the software it trys to make me pay again for the software ...
[22:15] <bbartek> Sorry for my bad english :-)
[22:15] <AlanBell> hi bbartek that sounds a bit annoying
[22:16] <bbartek> Hi AlanBell :-)
[22:16]  * AlanBell goes to look up where that kind of query goes
[22:16] <bbartek> Thx for listening
[22:18] <AlanBell> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Pay/FAQs
[22:18] <bbartek> Thx i´ll look at this
[22:19] <AlanBell> bbartek: I expect support is during UK working hours
[22:20] <AlanBell> you can file a bug any time though
[22:22] <bbartek>  https://pay.ubuntu.com/payment/  this site tells me the purchase is ´pending´. For Braid it is ´completed´
[22:22] <bbartek> Braid was succesfully installed. Journey Down isn´t
[22:24] <bbartek> Bizar, Braid installed itself directly after the payment was succesfull. Why is it ´Pending´? The info told me the payment was succesfull ...
[22:25] <AlanBell> sorry, I have absolutely no clue, never looked at that stuff myself
[22:25] <bbartek> Do you know who i can contact to discuss this problem?
[22:28] <bbartek> There is no contact info on the pay.ubuntu.com website :-(
[22:37] <bbartek> Thx for helping me AlanBell. Your link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Pay/FAQs was helpfull.
[22:37] <bbartek> The software is still pending so maybe there is a problem with the payment (not Canonical related) If the money goes of my account I´l find someone to help me at Canonical. If the money is not transfered I´ll try to buy the software again.