[00:00] <philipballew> MarkDude, no can do today
[00:04] <MarkDude> ok philipballew
[00:04] <MarkDude> next time
[00:05] <philipballew> no worries
[01:08] <Darkwing-laptop> pleia2: ping
[01:26] <Darkwing-laptop> bkerensa: ping
[01:26] <bkerensa> Darkwing-laptop: hi
[01:26] <Darkwing-laptop> bkerensa: care for a PM?
[01:26] <bkerensa> Darkwing-laptop: I love a good PM
[02:06] <Darkwing-laptop> Well, looks like my time in California is almost at an end.
[02:06] <DonkeyHotei> WHAT??
[02:06] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, got accepted to school in Indiana.
[02:07] <DonkeyHotei> well, at least it's not mississippi again
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> Hellz no.
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> lol
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> although, my kids are there
[02:07] <DonkeyHotei> in MS? they went back there?
[02:08] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, me and the wife are divorced.
[02:08] <Darkwing-laptop> I'm going to school in Fort Wayne, IN and will be a lot closer to them.
[02:08] <DonkeyHotei> that i remember. i just didn't think THERE of all places
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah lol.
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> I have family there
[02:09] <DonkeyHotei> in MS??
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Indiana.
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> The Ex is from Indiana
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> dammit
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> the ex is from Ms
[02:09] <DonkeyHotei> ohh
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Looks like the Indiana Team is close to dead.
[02:10] <DonkeyHotei> don't be a stranger
[02:10] <DonkeyHotei> we've lost people to geography before
[02:10] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, I was still around when I was in MS :D
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> I'll be offline/online quite a bit over the next several months.
[02:11] <DonkeyHotei> i still have your number
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> Yup.
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> I'm going through a bunch of the moving stuff right now so I'm not up on how the ZaTab is doing.
[02:12] <Darkwing-laptop> But, I should be smoothing out in the next couple months.
[02:12] <DonkeyHotei> no worries
[02:12] <DonkeyHotei> i'm having a bit of a transition myself atm, but i'll check with rodrigo afterward
[02:13] <Darkwing-laptop> sweet. :D
[03:20] <philipballew> Fort Wayne is a nice area. Been there several times.
[18:13] <bkerensa> pleia2: does California print trifolds at all? =o these prices are intense
[18:14] <pleia2> we have berkeleylug do it (they accept donations from their lug members)
[18:14] <pleia2> they get them via vistaprint.com
[18:14] <bkerensa> I will check that now
[18:15] <pleia2> they have deals often
[18:16] <bkerensa> yeah vistaprint seems more reasonable then kinkos and local printers
[18:16] <bkerensa> do you know how long it takes them to print? I was going to order them myself next friday but I need them by like the 16th
[18:19] <pleia2> they take a while, you can do rush printing but then you pretty much lose any of the cost benefit
[18:20] <bkerensa> =/
[18:21] <bkerensa> hmm maybe I will ask the loco if they wanna chip in although some dont like the idea of paying out of pocket to print stuff that ultimately supports Canonical
[18:21] <bkerensa> =/
[18:33] <pleia2> bkerensa: it supports all companies who are deploying and supporting Ubuntu (Canonical is not the only one, by far)
[18:34] <pleia2> and more users is really good for all of us :)
[18:34] <bkerensa> I know :P but some people dont like the idea of corporations
[18:34] <bkerensa> including the person who made our brochure
[18:34] <bkerensa> :)
[18:34] <bkerensa> his caveat was he would never print any or distribute any because he thought we were just making MarkS richer
[18:34] <bkerensa> ;p
[18:34] <bkerensa> and I said ok :)
[18:35] <pleia2> he knows Mark loses money on Ubuntu, right?
[18:35] <pleia2> I don't really buy those claims that LoCos are Marketing departments for Canonical, the company *I* work for has Ubuntu deployments too, I make part of my paycheck from Ubuntu
[18:36] <pleia2> anyway, there is no changing the minds of some people, so I probably shouldn't try :)
[18:37] <bkerensa> I have used Ubuntu for years so I dont see it as promoting Canonical
[18:37] <bkerensa> :)
[18:37] <MarkDude> MArk S may do stuff to help himslef, but he does things to make it great for many
[18:37] <MarkDude> beyond just Ubuntu users also
[18:38] <bkerensa> pleia2: is there any winning to the RH fanboy complaint of Canonical/Ubuntu does not contribute to upstream? :)
[18:39] <bkerensa> I mean its unfounded
[18:39] <pleia2> bkerensa: no, there are statistics that back up both sides, don't bother
[18:40] <MarkDude> Its a no-win
[18:40] <MarkDude> to argue over it
[18:40] <MarkDude> Rh types miss that Ubunut does great publicity
[18:41] <MarkDude> on a level no one has done- or maybe could do
[18:41] <MarkDude> these people get involved in FOSS
[18:41] <MarkDude> THAT helps everyone
[18:41] <bkerensa> MarkDude: Its not only about publicity... Almost every patch or bug fixed benefits upstream unless we maintain the package in Ubuntu which is not very frequent
[18:42] <bkerensa> that means it goes to Debian and often goes all the way upstream
[18:42] <MarkDude> true
[18:42] <bkerensa> further... Transmission for instance... Fedora uses it right?
[18:42] <MarkDude> yep
[18:43] <MarkDude> with extra rh legal words....
[18:43] <bkerensa> Mainly developed by a Canonical employee
[18:43] <bkerensa> :)
[18:43] <bkerensa> with of course some contributors on the side
[18:43] <bkerensa> but if you donate money to transmissionbt.org it goes to the Canonical guy who has been developing it for years
[18:43] <pleia2> I don't like the discussion at all, the premise is a competitive, self-rightous "Us vs Them" and that is not awesome
[18:44] <MarkDude> MarkDude> Its a no-win
 to argue over it
[18:44]  * MarkDude agrees
[18:44] <bkerensa> I dont either :) but I dont like it being said that Ubuntu Community and Canonical do not contribute upstream or even "contribute very little"
[18:44] <MarkDude> there is some area of talking that helps
[18:44] <pleia2> bkerensa: just let it go
[18:45] <bkerensa> kk
[18:45] <MarkDude> *ignore it * Ben :)
[18:45] <bkerensa> peh :P
[18:45] <bkerensa> pleia2: how is Jelly Bean?
[18:45] <bkerensa> :)
[18:45] <pleia2> haven't used it!
[18:45] <bkerensa> wat!
[18:45] <MarkDude> if there is sumthin that is of mutuall help- thats the area to talk about :)
[18:45] <bkerensa> Your fiancee didnt go to I/O?
[18:45] <bkerensa> :D
[18:46] <pleia2> bkerensa: nope, he's not in the department that does such things
[18:46] <pleia2> he has it on his phone, but I don't use his phone ;)
[18:46] <bkerensa> If I knew they were giving away tablets and phones I would have tried to buy a ticket and go
[18:46] <MarkDude> Mike had some i/o swag last night at bbq
[18:46] <pleia2> they always give away tablets and phones at google i/o
[18:46] <bkerensa> What
[18:46] <bkerensa> every year?
[18:46] <pleia2> yes
[18:46] <bkerensa> >.<
[18:46] <bkerensa> to everyone?
[18:46] <pleia2> that's why people spend the $$ to go :P
[18:46] <MarkDude> always some 1st gen toys
[18:46] <MarkDude> everyone
[18:47] <bkerensa> MarkDude: Next year Im coming to sleep on your couch before I/O
[18:47] <MarkDude> sure bkerensa
[18:47] <bkerensa> heh
[18:47] <MarkDude> geeknic time
[18:47] <pleia2> bkerensa: you're welcome to stay here too, I live a block from Moscone
[18:47] <pleia2> my place is tiny, so you get the couch, but itnet7 can tell you it's not so bad :)
[18:48] <bkerensa> lol
[18:48] <bkerensa> pleia2: well we will see I hear they sold tickets out in 20 mins
[18:48] <bkerensa> so I would have to have money + luck
[18:49] <pleia2> bkerensa: yep
[18:55] <akk> Reading scrollback ... stats that back up both sides ... I never see Ubuntu people pointing to the stats supporting Ubuntu contributing upstream.
[18:56] <akk> If there are stats on that side, it wouldn't hurt to point to them (I agree on not continuing the argument or getting heated about it).
[18:56] <akk> I mean, as a longtime Ubuntu user (and I do think they're benefitting Linux) *I* have the strong impression most of it doesn't go upstream
[18:57] <akk> so if I do, a lot of non Ubuntu users do too.
[19:00] <pleia2> most of them are pretty hacked together, a known list of Ubuntu contributors whose email addresses are pulled from debian changelogs and other upstream projects, the redhat stats that started the whole conversation tend to focus on kernel
[19:00] <pleia2> and people who use their @ubuntu.com address to contribute to things (but some debian people have gotten angry about that http://sandrotosi.blogspot.com/2009/11/things-that-make-me-angry.html)
[19:00] <darthrobot> Title: [Sandro Tosi: Things that make me angry]
[19:01] <pleia2> and none of the stats ever included me (I'm not known for dev stuff, and I don't use my @ubuntu.com address for stuff outside Ubuntu)
[19:02] <akk> That's really weird, getting angry about submissions from @ubuntu.com. I don't get it.
[19:03] <akk> Sounds like the real issue is that Ubuntu doesn't track their developers submitting to upstream projects, and RH does.
[19:04] <akk> Might not be too hard to make a list of Canonical employees and the email addresses they use for upstream contributions, then count those as a start.
[19:04] <pleia2> yeah, RH is a big company and people are getting paid for the work, Ubuntu has a lot of community developers who don't get counted (like me) and I don't think Canonical is so strict about tracking and reporting all the work their employees do upstream
[19:05] <akk> (obviously not as interesting as counting contributions of all ubuntu members, but I guess it would be harder to cat-herd them all into listing their email addresses?)
[19:05] <pleia2> RH has almost 4000 employees, I think canonical has around 600 maybe
[19:05] <akk> A per-employee number would still be an interesting stat.
[19:06] <pleia2> I think as Canonical matures as a company they may start keeping better track, but it's tough to make that economical when you're small
[19:09] <pleia2> I don't know the true answer either way, and it's all so subjective once you really get talking about "value added to the open source world"
[20:56] <scientes> only 4000?
[20:57] <scientes> i would suspect more being they are a fortune 500 company
[20:57] <pleia2> http://investors.redhat.com/faq.cfm As of February 28, 2011 Red Hat had approximately 3,760 employees worldwide.
[20:57] <darthrobot> Title: [Red Hat, Inc. - Investor FAQs]