[02:10] <crond> Is it normal to have higher CPU temps in Unity than in XFCE?
[02:29] <DarwinSurvivor> crond: yes, especially if you don't have proper video card support on your machine
[02:30] <crond> DarwinSurvivor, I do
[02:31] <crond> I have the same video support in either, bumblebee is working right
[02:31] <crond> just I am on average 5c hotter in Unity
[02:31] <crond> and I was curious as to why
[02:32] <crond> I still havent passed 74c so I'm not worried.  It's just weird (thats playing Wow on my nvidia card via bumblebee.  Under just the Intel I am at 47-50c)
[02:32] <DarwinSurvivor> oh, if it's only 5c I wouldn't worry about that. Just the additional services unity runs (messaging menu, compiz, etc) will do that
[02:32] <crond> ahh okay
[02:32] <crond> yeah its not a MAJOR difference, just enough to be noted and odd
[02:32] <crond> and its not like I wasn't using compositing in XFCE
[02:32] <crond> I had awn and whatnot running in that
[02:35] <crond> I'm not minding Unity though
[02:35] <crond> I am however skeptical about canonical giving in to Microsoft
[02:35] <crond> on the UEFI thing
[02:37] <DarwinSurvivor> gtg, back in an hour
[02:42] <crond> cya
[02:44] <james_w> giving in to microsoft?
[02:45] <crond> james_w, they're using MS key to sign UEFI firmware instead of pressing for that crap not to be used in general on PCs.
[02:47] <james_w> I work for canonical fwiw
[02:47] <james_w> no involvement with the uefi stuff though
[02:48] <james_w> by pressing for it not to be used, you mean not working on systems that have secure boot enabled with only Microsoft's key in the db?
[02:48] <crond> james_w, I mean if everyone presses for UEFI to not be used in OEMs at all, that'd be better.
[02:48] <james_w> uefi, or secure boot?
[02:49] <crond> just seems... shortsighted to depend on MS in any way to be able to boot Linux
[02:49] <crond> james_w, uh, I guess secure boot yes
[02:49] <crond> my bad
[02:49] <james_w> you think that canonical has the sway with OEMs to stop any of them using secure boot at all?
[02:50] <james_w> when currently that would be asking them not to ship any machines with Windows 8?
[02:50] <crond> james_w, I think that if large amounts of vendors/users/etc stood against it, that requirement would get removed
[02:51] <crond> instead of people just going with it
[02:51] <crond> perhaps I'm assuming too much as far as people caring, however
[02:51] <james_w> I agree that if all OEMs said that it would get removed by Microsoft from their logo requirements, but I don't see them doing that
[02:54] <crond> james_w, well, I'm hoping that HP's move in refusing to make win8 ARM tablets will be followed and maybe undermine microsoft (due to them marketing surface tablets against their OEMs products)
[02:54] <crond> but thats probably wishful thinking
[02:54] <james_w> yeah, ARM is certainly an area where they can't throw their weight around as much
[02:55] <james_w> another part of this it that we'd actually like secure boot if implemented right
[02:55] <james_w> if it improved security while preserving user freedom
[02:56] <crond> well, how does secure boot affect people who, say, use LFS or something to roll their own Linux? Or do you mean, make end users able to turn it off/self-sign keys?
[02:57] <james_w> yeah, I'd support allowing users to turn it off or insert their own keys if they want to do that sort of thing
[02:57] <james_w> the issue is that secure boot has been reduced to a key management problem, and we haven't got good answers for that yet
[02:58] <crond> hmm yeah.  How long till devices using it start coming out? I saw the qemu supports it in software now apparently.
[02:58] <james_w> I'm not exactly sure, but within months I expect
[02:58] <james_w> Windows 8 is scheduled for the fall I think?
[02:58] <crond> hm.  Well, I'm sticking to BIOS systems until that gets figured.
[02:58] <crond> yeah I think you're right.
[03:04] <james_w> both Microsoft's and Canonical's requirements state that you should be able to disable secure boot and add your own keys IIRC
[03:05] <james_w> so it's mainly a question of how to support the users who won't want to do that
[03:05] <james_w> but I wouldn't wait until someone has cracked key management :-)
[03:05] <james_w> it might take 50 years, it may even be impossible
[03:06] <crond> well hopefully stuff with ship with the ability to disable it, but I'm not holding my breath.  Cept maybe OEMs like System 76, PenguinComputing, or Zareason.
[03:06] <james_w> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/13713.html
[03:07] <james_w> so anything certified ubuntu should be fine
[03:07] <crond> Nice
[03:08] <crond> I'd rather not pay the extra price of ordering from an ubuntu OEM (Unless Dell decides to sell ubuntu notebooks in Canada again), but I will if I have to
[03:09] <james_w> I'm hoping they release project sputnik in Canada, it's a nice bit of kit
[03:09] <crond> Hm so all Ubuntu certified HW has to have Microsoft's key too? That ONLY means that Ubuntu-certified HW can run Windows too, yeah?
[03:09] <james_w> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/9844.html
[03:09] <james_w> found it
[03:10] <james_w> so Windows specifies that users can disable secure boot
[03:10] <crond> wait signed kernel?
[03:10] <james_w> I'm not sure what all the consequences of it are, but yeah, you can likely boot Windows too
[03:10] <crond> I could compilemy own kernel?
[03:10] <crond> *couldnt
[03:10] <james_w> not without disabling secure boot
[03:10] <james_w> but Ubuntu's current plan is to not sign kernels
[03:11] <crond> hm
[03:11] <crond> okay... :S
[03:11] <james_w> yeah, it's not great
[03:12] <crond> I'm concerned, but I guess we'll see what happens
[03:12] <james_w> but there's not really a viable way to have secure boot without having signing that prevents users building their own stuff
[03:12] <crond> and the point of Linux is, in part, to be ABLE to build your own stuff
[03:12] <james_w> you need a secret not on the user's machine, otherwise any malware could easily bypass secure boot, making it useless
[03:12] <crond> not to mention FreeBSD/*BSD/etc users
[03:13] <james_w> yeah, but I'm not sure the point is to keep everything working exactly the same if you build your own stuff
[03:13] <james_w> I appreciate the desire, but I'm not sure it's feasible, even ignoring the security aspects
[03:13] <james_w> but we'll have to see if the GPL3 leads to a legal challenge in this area
[03:14] <james_w> no-one's sure where it draws the line on user modifiability
[03:14] <james_w> (I'm going to claim that's a word)
[03:14] <crond> I'm very unlikely to buy any hardware with that until its sorted, and I'm going to recommend to the people that ask me about computer purchases that they don't either.
[03:15] <james_w> yeah, unfortunately it's likely to be tricky in a year or so
[03:17] <crond> course, watch this get cracked just like prettymuch everything else due to some sort of implementation flaw/someone messing up with keys/etc
[03:17] <crond> kind of like AACS, etc.
[03:17] <crond> and be a really expensive, ultimately useless, pain in the butt
[03:18] <james_w> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12897.html
[03:18] <james_w> yeah, I realise I'm just linking to Matthew, but he's like the world's foremost expert on secure boot
[03:19] <crond> james_w, yeah this is interesting reading.  Thanks :)
[03:20] <james_w> np
[03:20] <james_w> he's got a whole series of posts that are worth reading
[03:20] <james_w> and there are a couple of videos of presentations too
[03:22] <crond> So, do you happen to know, what's the best way to get an Ubuntu OEM notebook in Canada?
[03:22] <james_w> I don't know I'm afriad
[03:23] <crond> okay np
[03:23] <james_w> my last one was a windows laptop
[03:23] <james_w> Dell is the best bet unless you are shipping from overseas
[03:23] <james_w> but they aren't pushing much to Canada currently
[03:23] <crond> mine was windows too, and I checked, but I havent actually found ANY Dell's I can buy with Ubuntu
[03:24] <crond> a search pulls up a model or two but if I try and configure them, win7 is the only option
[03:24] <james_w> hmm, that's odd
[03:25] <crond> I currently have an Asus U31SD.  Works decently, the only thing that doesn't work is Suspend (though Hibernate works)
[03:35] <james_w> ok, the internet in this hotel is too crap to do any work, so I'm going to turn in
[03:35] <james_w> night all
[03:37] <crond> night!
[14:27] <jlamothe> I've been running into an intermittent bug.  Sometimes, when I save a gnucash file, my display scrambles on me, and the only thing I can do is reboot.  The only thing that's changed recently is that this file is now stored in an ecryptfs system being synced with Ubuntu One.  To whom should I submit this log: http://www.jlamothe.net/stuff/log_snippet.txt ?
[14:42] <jlamothe> Crap... it seems I was right earlier when I said it looks like a failing drive.  71 bad sectors.  D:
[16:52] <DarwinSurvivor> jlamothe: run memtest on the machine. LOTS of people that think they have failling HDD's turn out to have failing RAM that corrupts the HDD.
[17:02] <jlamothe> DarwinSurvivor: I'll have to do that when I get home.  Thanks for the tip.
[17:02] <jlamothe> Although, I've already purchased a new HDD from newegg.
[17:02] <jlamothe> Worst-case scenario is that I now have 1.5TB of storage instead of 500GB.
[17:03] <jlamothe> Although, I still suspect the drive.  It was originally a RAID1 array, made of two identical drives purchased at the same time.  Drive 2 failed about a year ago.
[17:07] <jlamothe> Fortunately, I back-up frequently.  You only have to lose all you stuff once to learn *that* lesson.